Pokémon Froslass

[Hail Magikarp]

First of all, your stats on Froslass's defenses are flat wrong. Froslass's defenses are 70/70/70, which all three add up to 210... the same as Greninja's at 72/67/71. Note that I never said Greninja had superior bulk, but rather that both Greninja and Froslass are equally frail, which is true. Cpmd addressed Greninja's superior attacking prowess in comparison to Froslass well enough, so I won't beat that dead horse, but I will just say that rapid spin is nowhere nearly as common as defog. Starmie, Forretress, Donphan, and Tentacruel all just recently fell to UU, while MBlastoise has been there all along, which just goes to show how irrelevant rapid spin has become with the rise of defog.

Actually im right about Froslass stats http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/froslass
Now you said that taunt greninja was a thing right?? Well look this
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/XY OU/658.html and tell if u see taunt on any set.
Also can u please stop reffering to usage, we have a bunch of noobs playing thinking that just because a mega isent a sweeper its not worth it as M-stoise would do fine in OU. U are also saying that defog has made rapid spin irellevent well thats BS. The only 2 relevant defog users in OU is Mandibuzz and Latios and to some extent Zapdos while rapid spin have Excadrill, M-stoise and then we have Bisharp who shits at defog and is something that many players with defog on their team needs to watch out for. I am not saying that Rapid spin> defog but please look up your facts before u start blabbering and aslo please dont compare Froslass to Greninja as they have nothing in common besides spikes.

 

[Hail Magikarp]

Specs on Greninja is MUCH more viable than on Froslass, though I wouldn't run it on either of them as personal preference. Protean still gives you STAB on everything, making Greninja's choice attacks hit that much harder. His special attack and speed are way better too and he has superior coverage. Bulk isn't really an issue here thanks to Greninja's speed and ability to change typing, which is much more beneficial than slightly higher defensive stats. His strongest attack changes him to a pure water type, a very good defensive typing. Froslass' meager attacks and lower speed means she misses that many more KOs (what's the point of bulk if Greninja can just KO its target?), forcing her to switch out or take a beating. She doesn't even get the benefit of better STAB attacks since Greninja's Ice Beam / Dark Pulse are the same BP as Froslass'. Specs definitely isn't what you should be using Froslass for.

As for your calcs against M-Blastoise: he can OHKO her back, it requires Stealth Rock already being up for her to reliably take him down AND for her to take Thunderbolt when she barely has room for a single attacking move on her spikes set in the first place. And just so you know, Greninja often takes Grass Knot.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 320-377 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

The OHKO Greninja gets on Excadrill is more important since he's much more relevant in OU than M-Blastoise is (whose usage was about 1/5th of Excadrill's in Feb). You also didn't mention that Starmie's got a chance to OHKO Froslass if she's carrying Hydro Pump, while Greninja doesn't have to worry about her since he's faster (Grass Knot being a guaranteed OHKO on her).

Choice specs is never used on Greninja by a good player because he needs to be able utulizze his coverage . Also why would u use grass knot on Starmie when Dark pulse hits much harder.
Sorry for not thinking of grass knot. But still please stop comparing Froslass to Greninja as they have nothing in common but spikes.

 

[MrBossTMJ]

Greninja sucks aye. See them all day everyday, Idk why you would compare the two to each other in the end if Frosslass is carrying Destiny Bond. Both will be taken out #FroslassForPresident

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

First of all, your stats on Froslass's defenses are flat wrong. Froslass's defenses are 70/70/70, which all three add up to 210... the same as Greninja's at 72/67/71. Note that I never said Greninja had superior bulk, but rather that both Greninja and Froslass are equally frail, which is true. Cpmd addressed Greninja's superior attacking prowess in comparison to Froslass well enough, so I won't beat that dead horse, but I will just say that rapid spin is nowhere nearly as common as defog. Starmie, Forretress, Donphan, and Tentacruel all just recently fell to UU, while MBlastoise has been there all along, which just goes to show how irrelevant rapid spin has become with the rise of defog.

Froslass does have 70/70/70, so you are correct. However, as good as defog is, froslass does block spinning, which still has a small niche in OU.

It's going to be hard to take you seriously if you use specs on greninja over LO, despite the small niche it has.

And like MrBossTMJ said, Froslass does pack destiny bond, and is a relatively fast pokemon, so it can predict it's fainting and destiny bond out. If you're scared about Greninja Dark Pulsing Froslass, you can use the situational sash.

 

[zyzzyva]

Actually im right about Froslass stats y mhttp://pokemondb.net/pokedex/froslass
Now you said that taunt greninja was a thing right?? Well look this
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/XY OU/658.html and tell if u see taunt on any set.
Also can u please stop reffering to usage, we have a bunch of noobs playing thinking that just because a mega isent a sweeper its not worth it as M-stoise would do fine in OU. U are also saying that defog has made rapid spin irellevent well thats BS. The only 2 relevant defog users in OU is Mandibuzz and Latios and to some extent Zapdos while rapid spin have Excadrill, M-stoise and then we have Bisharp who shits at defog and is something that many players with defog on their team needs to watch out for. I am not saying that Rapid spin> defog but please look up your facts before u start blabbering and aslo please dont compare Froslass to Greninja as they have nothing in common besides spikes.

Uhm... are you being stupid intentionally? Both links you provided go directly against the point you were trying to make. Do you not understand what defense means? What constitutes bulk? Froslass's stats:
HP 70
Attack 80
Defense 70
Sp. Atk 80
Sp. Def 70
Speed 110

HP: 70 Defense: 70 Special Defense: 70 Its defenses are 70 70 70. Its bulk is 70 70 70. How hard can this concept possibly be? How many times can you possibly misunderstand this concept? And as for your question of whether or not I see taunt on any set... yes. I see it on 2. Have you never heard of ctrl + F? >.> More importantly, taunt is seen on 4.18 percent of Greninja sets, which doesn't seem like much, and I'll add that taunt is also seen on slightly less than half of Froslass sets. But ultimately, that leaves you with ~2,000 more Greninjas with taunt than Froslasses (just because Greninja is so much more common than Froslass), and even more Greninjas carry spikes (and tspikes) than taunt. I'm not advocating running Greninja as a suicide lead with spikes and taunt, it has better things to do, but the fact that more people run Greninja as a suicide lead with taunt than Froslass says a lot, especially considering being a suicide lead with spikes and taunt is Froslass's only niche in OU. Any way you look at it, Froslass is pretty wholly outclassed, and the only thing that makes it even close to worth it is Dbond, but even that is considerably less useful with all the priority flying around. Also, lol @ your list of relevant defoggers. How silly of me to forget that Scizor/Mega Scizor, Togekiss, and Latias were irrelevant ("irellevent"...) in OU... that was sarcasm. They're all more relevant than any spinner sans Excadrill. Ultimately, being a spinblocker really is nothing to brag about in today's meta, and that leaves Froslass with a very very small niche that ultimately isn't worth the slot it takes on your team.

@ Shellder Smuggler -- I'm not telling you to run specs Greninja over LO Greninja... I'm telling you to run specs Greninja over specs Froslass (and LO Greninja over specs Greninja). Again, specs is just a role in which Greninja wholly outclasses Froslass (there are actually a lot of pokes that outclass Froslass as specs users, Greninja is just the one we're talking about), meaning there's really no point to running specs Froslass.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

@ Shellder Smuggler -- I'm not telling you to run specs Greninja over LO Greninja... I'm telling you to run specs Greninja over specs Froslass (and LO Greninja over specs Greninja). Again, specs is just a role in which Greninja wholly outclasses Froslass (there are actually a lot of pokes that outclass Froslass as specs users, Greninja is just the one we're talking about), meaning there's really no point to running specs Froslass.

And I'm telling you specs greninja is a bad idea.

 

[zyzzyva]

And yet it's still better than specs Froslass, which is a set listed in the OP that really shouldn't be. Although all you need is LO to hit harder than specs Froslass.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

And yet it's still better than specs Froslass, which is a set listed in the OP that really shouldn't be. Although all you need is LO to hit harder than specs Froslass.

We're discussing Froslass, not your greninja fan-boy obsession. We're discussing FROSLASS and viable sets. Maybe it happens to be that specs is a viable set.

We're discussing FROSLASS

We're discussing FROSLASS

We're discussing FROSLASS

 

[zyzzyva]

...it's not even remotely viable. It's outclassed by so many things. Greninja is relevant because specs Froslass is slower and weaker than LO Greninja if they're given the same nature. Which is why you shouldn't run Froslass. This is me discussing Froslass. More specifically, I'm discussing why Froslass isn't viable. If you're tired of Greninja, I could pick a different specs/LO user that outclasses Froslass. I assure you, there are all too many. My problem with all this is that we really shouldn't be discussing Froslass, because it's hardly OU viable, and its specs set sure as fuck isn't OU viable. Get it out of this forum, seriously.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

...it's not even remotely viable. It's outclassed by so many things. Greninja is relevant because specs Froslass is slower and weaker than LO Greninja if they're given the same nature. Which is why you shouldn't run Froslass. This is me discussing Froslass. More specifically, I'm discussing why Froslass isn't viable. If you're tired of Greninja, I could pick a different specs/LO user that outclasses Froslass. I assure you, there are all too many. My problem with all this is that we really shouldn't be discussing Froslass, because it's hardly OU viable, and its specs set sure as fuck isn't OU viable. Get it out of this forum, seriously.

...I mentioned earlier that it does work in UU, can't you read? And Froslass is on the viability thread - so it is OU viable.

EDIT: Please don't reply to this, I wasn't exactly asking for an answer.

 

[zyzzyva]

Froslass is ranked in C-, which means it's probably not a very good idea to use it and that it's thoroughly outclassed.

And sets that work in UU belong in Froslass's UU thread. It's irresponsible to post sets that are entirely useless and outclassed in OU in the OU forum because it can lead new players astray. I can understand why the spikes set is in the OP, even if it isn't something I'd run, but the specs set absolutely does not belong in the OU forum and needs to be removed. The UU forum exists for a reason.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

And sets that work in UU belong in Froslass's UU thread. It's irresponsible to post sets that are entirely useless and outclassed in OU in the OU forum because it can lead new players astray. I can understand why the spikes set is in the OP, even if it isn't something I'd run, but the specs set absolutely does not belong in the OU forum and needs to be removed. The UU forum exists for a reason.

EDIT: Please don't reply to this, I wasn't exactly asking for an answer.

It's official. He can't read.

 

[MrBossTMJ]

Just because a Pokemon is UU doesn't mean anything. I would never use Specs Greninja because why bother. Protean makes the move Stab anyways so there is no need at all. Frosslass is a good Specs user as it is able to hit hard with moves like Ice Beam, Shadow Ball and Tbolt. If you were playing on setting up with Tailwind. It would be amazing!

 

[zyzzyva]

Indeed, UU pokemon can be OU viable if they're not plainly outclassed by OU pokemon, a la Florges and Donphan. Froslass retains a small and questionably valuable niche with its spikes set, but the specs set is absolutely worthless in OU. It doesn't hit very hard and, again, there's a long list of superior specs users in OU. There are even better special attackers who don't need to bother with specs to deal more damage than Froslass... as I've said numerous times, Greninja's a really fine example of a poke who wholly outclasses Froslass's specs set, even with just its LO set. There's no need for the specs set to be in this thread, it's just misleading for anybody new who happens to see it.

 

[MrBossTMJ]

I don't find it misleading, It is something different that if people do want to try they can. Froslass can do many things apart from "Spikes and Dbond and hope they don't switch out". The set is Viable, you can all so save for Death Fauder once at low HP to confim a Dbond. More then meets the eye for the all mighty Froslass

 

[teamdelibird]

I don't find it misleading, It is something different that if people do want to try they can. Froslass can do many things apart from "Spikes and Dbond and hope they don't switch out". The set is Viable, you can all so save for Death Fauder once at low HP to confim a Dbond. More then meets the eye for the all mighty Froslass

yeah, but everything froslass can do, something else does better. Except both laying spikes and spinblocking. That is what makes froslass viable in OU. Any other set that froslass runs in OU could be done 100% better by something else.

 

[cpmd4]

Choice specs is never used on Greninja by a good player because he needs to be able utulizze his coverage . Also why would u use grass knot on Starmie when Dark pulse hits much harder.
Sorry for not thinking of grass knot. But still please stop comparing Froslass to Greninja as they have nothing in common but spikes.

Spikes is all that Froslass should be used for. She's not a viable choice specs user at all as she's outclassed as an attacker, and while I would use Greninja over her for spikes for his attacking prowess at least she can spin block and has access to useful support moves, setting her apart. I'm not sure why the choice set is in the OP, it's not OU-viable.

I don't find it misleading, It is something different that if people do want to try they can. Froslass can do many things apart from "Spikes and Dbond and hope they don't switch out". The set is Viable, you can all so save for Death Fauder once at low HP to confim a Dbond. More then meets the eye for the all mighty Froslass

People can try whatever they like. However, it is not viable in OU. Try Gengar, Starmie, choice scarf Chandelure or yes, even Greninja which are all superior as specs users.

 

[Hail Magikarp]

Indeed, UU pokemon can be OU viable if they're not plainly outclassed by OU pokemon, a la Florges and Donphan. Froslass retains a small and questionably valuable niche with its spikes set, but the specs set is absolutely worthless in OU. It doesn't hit very hard and, again, there's a long list of superior specs users in OU. There are even better special attackers who don't need to bother with specs to deal more damage than Froslass... as I've said numerous times, Greninja's a really fine example of a poke who wholly outclasses Froslass's specs set, even with just its LO set. There's no need for the specs set to be in this thread, it's just misleading for anybody new who happens to see it.

Okay now i am Actually not gonna argue anomore as it is just shitting my tread, do i know that specs froslass is not the best specs user??? HELL Yeah i do but u need to understand that something like Will always work in froslass advantage as it Will often get a Suprise KO on something and u might have just screwed up ure opponents plan because he didnt see it Comming. On to the stats im a fucking moron all this time i believed he 70/80/80 but now that i take my glasses on i can see that its Actually 70/70/70 so sorry for that. Anyway as shellder smuggler has already told you can u please STOP discussing Greninja in a Froslass thread as They arent even alike. If u want to discuss Greninja then please just to the Greninja thread and show them all just what a fanboy u are. Anyway im ending this discussion now.

Edit: i have Also removed the specs froslass set in the OP as people cant understand what Suprise value is and Also who the HELL thinks Donphan and Florges are OU viable They are outclassed in evrything They do by Excadrill and Florges respectivly.

 

[nkhlshnd99]

Well u should never use a specs on Greninja because it needs to switch moves because u know........Protean. And Also what do u mean with better bulk? Greninja has 72/67/71 while froslass has 70/80/80 so is seems like froslass is the one with superior bulk. Another thing u Said is that Excadrill and M-stoise are the only relevant spinners well u forgot Starmie who is still a good spinner. Also Froslass specs can beat both M-stoise and Starmie and often Excadrill due to his quite low bulk. Greninja has no way of braking through M-stoise


252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 129-152 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

His strongest move fail to even 2HKO while froslass.....


252 SpA Life Orb Froslass Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 164-195 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
so with rocks up it is a guaranteed 2HKO and with specs its a clean 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 196-231 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
After rocks its a 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 564-665 (133 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Yeah a OHKO from Greninja but the thing is if exca switches in on rocks froslass Will almost always 2HKO

So Yeah Greninja and Froslass does just as good vs the 2 most relevant spinners. Also on another topic rapid spin is just as used as defog because most players want to keep their own Hazards on the Fields

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 320-377 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(320, 322, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374, 377)
You are welcome.

 

[Hail Magikarp]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 320-377 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(320, 322, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374, 377)
You are welcome.

For what?

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

There's not much value to a surprise set when it's as underwhelming as specs froslass.

Greninja isn't being discussed it's being mentioned as an example of something that outclasses froslass as an all out attacker due to higher speed, better coverage and more power it also happens to be able to lay spikes.

Gengar is a better user of destiny bond/taunt as it has more support moves and better coverage moves as well as much more power, a better typing and a better ability.

This means that the only thing that froslass can do in OU that isn't completely outclassed is a suicide spike lead with destiny bond.

 

[the-bumper-car]

What OU Rapid Spinner can Froslass actually Spinblock? She can't do anything to Excadrill (the only OU Rapid Spinner worth discussing), and the Defoggers make her niche not viable.

 

[Durant]

What OU Rapid Spinner can Froslass actually Spinblock? She can't do anything to Excadrill (the only OU Rapid Spinner worth discussing), and the Defoggers make her niche not viable.

Starmie

 

[the-bumper-car]

Starmie

Starmie is UU now.

 

[Durant]

Starmie is UU now.

Just because it is labeled UU doesn't mean it sucks in OU. Also post number 100 :)