My example is to explain the versatility of Meditite and how it catches the opposing counters/checks off guard with it's array of moves. Even then the elemental punches hit Evio Missy and Evio Pawniard and Eviolite Croagunk with about ~40% or more which is pretty good considering it's not stab, only able to switch in 3 times not even factoring SR damage.
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Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned
- Thread starter blarajan
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My example is to explain the versatility of Meditite and how it catches the opposing counters/checks off guard with it's array of moves. Even then the elemental punches hit Evio Missy and Evio Pawniard and Eviolite Croagunk with about ~40% or more which is pretty good considering it's not stab, only able to switch in 3 times not even factoring SR damage.
Although I personally would like murkrow banned, I think somebody needs to argue the other side to have a fair suspect test.
Probably a joke but I felt like I should address it anyway. Murkrow will never 6-0 a good player, particularly the life orb set. The problem isn't it beating every mon 1v1, but it being hard to switch into. Also something 6-0ing the lower ladder means nothing.
If someone's strategy is to slowly wear it down, I feel as if it would have too big of a chunk into your team already and you should probably deal with it in other ways. :)
I feel as if this isn't the case. You're going to go to your dwebble/chinchou/whatever your check may be no matter the set. The only time you would play the matchup differently is using scald instead of volt switch on chinchou in case they use substitute so you can leave your check in.
Probably a joke but I felt like I should address it anyway. Murkrow will never 6-0 a good player, particularly the life orb set. The problem isn't it beating every mon 1v1, but it being hard to switch into. Also something 6-0ing the lower ladder means nothing.
If someone's strategy is to slowly wear it down, I feel as if it would have too big of a chunk into your team already and you should probably deal with it in other ways. :)
I think this is an important point to make. One of meditite's problems is that it has a slight 4MSS. It simply can't be running thunder punch/fire punch/poison jab/bullet punch. You have to choose what check you want to put dents in and if you want priority moves and go from there. Meditite needs to be running STABs if it wants to hurt when it's hitting for neutral damage.
The Pokemon you mention are not reliable counters to Murkrow. Dwebble loses if it takes SR damage, while Chinchou can potentially get 2HKOed by Hidden Power Grass after SR. That's what makes Murkrow so threatening - the fact that it can defeat even some of its best "counters" with ease depending on what moves it uses.
I agree that Murkrow will rarely be able to 6-0 a good team, but Murkrow will still usually get 2-3 KOes in a match against good players due to its versatility, Speed, and power. Being able to get 2-3 KOes in a majority of the matches it is used in without any setup and little support is ridiculous.
LO Murkrow can't really be dealt in many other ways. Its high speed + sucker punch makes it hard to revenge kill, while the absurd power of its Brave Bird means that a majority of even the most resilient of walls will take a shitton of damage.
Also don't double post. Its looked down upon.
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To address your first point, I wasn't compiling a list of checks, just simply stating some as examples of how you wouldn't play the matchup any differently.
For your second point, yes murkrow can get 2-3 KOs in many matchups and I don't really have a great answer for this. Many mons are able to get 2-3 KOs in a matchup but they all require teamsupport and I'd say Murkrow requires minimal support and is broken in that regard.
Also, Murkrow most certainly can be dealt with in other ways. If someone metaphorically didn't have a mon on their team that could switch in and be able to kill Murkrow, they'd probably need to rethink their teambuilding. I agree that there are limited options and Murkrow is definitely restricting teambuilding, but letting Murkrow punch holes all over your team is not the way to deal with it.
Lastly, sorry for double posting, I just figured they were on different topics and not at all relevant to each other. I'll be sure not to do that in the future :)
Did some calcs for murkrow cause FRIDAY NIGHT
I'll do this for meditite later
Its not a lie that Murkrow destroys everything. Combine this with Fletchling and other flying types that require the above mons and Krow can easily plow through teams late in the game, once they are weakened. Or early the game to prepare for another sweeper. Flying + Fire is just a deadly combo on its own, and add on Dark (especially now that its no longer resisted by steel) and its just x10 more deadly.
I'll do this for meditite later
Remember this thing has NO BOOSTS
VS. Chinchou:
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 13-17 (54.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Archen:
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Spritzee:
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Shell Smash)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Bulky Support)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-17 (46.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
VS. Magnemite
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 26-31 (136.8 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS. Vullaby
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Chinchou:
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 13-17 (54.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Archen:
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Spritzee:
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Shell Smash)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Bulky Support)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-17 (46.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
VS. Magnemite
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 26-31 (136.8 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS. Vullaby
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Significantly less in power, significantly greater in longevity.
VS. Chinchou:
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Archen:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 91.6% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
VS. Spritzee:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 5-7 (18.5 - 25.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Carapace Crash):
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Bulky Support):
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 26.5% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 26.5% chance to 3HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 165 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-13 (35.7 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VS. Magnemite:
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 12-15 (63.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
VS. Chinchou:
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Archen:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 91.6% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
VS. Spritzee:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 5-7 (18.5 - 25.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Carapace Crash):
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga (Bulky Support):
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 26.5% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 165 HP / 12 Def Tirtouga: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 26.5% chance to 3HKO
84 SpA Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 165 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-13 (35.7 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VS. Magnemite:
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 12-15 (63.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
AGHGJF
VS. Mienfoo
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 11-13 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Chinchou
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Tirtouga: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
VS. Archen
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 22-27 (100 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS. Stunky
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Stunky: 9-11 (40.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Pawniard
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
VS. Mienfoo
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 11-13 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Chinchou
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Tirtouga
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Tirtouga: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
VS. Archen
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 22-27 (100 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS. Stunky
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Stunky: 9-11 (40.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Pawniard
+2 0 Atk Murkrow Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
Its not a lie that Murkrow destroys everything. Combine this with Fletchling and other flying types that require the above mons and Krow can easily plow through teams late in the game, once they are weakened. Or early the game to prepare for another sweeper. Flying + Fire is just a deadly combo on its own, and add on Dark (especially now that its no longer resisted by steel) and its just x10 more deadly.
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Yes, the 6-0 was a joke (I just said that to mention that LO Murkrow terrorizes the lower half of Little Cup skill than the other half) That can contribute to the "Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?" discussion
Dwebble is not a good check to Murkrow. That leaves Chinchou, Archen and Scarf Pawniard (the three most common "checks" to Murkrow) Chinchou has the mentioned strategy of using Scald over Volt Switch to keep the mon in, and SubThief and LO are played around differently by abusing the lack of Sucker Punch. It's a bit easier to switch in some faster Pokemon knowing you won't have Sucker Punch. SubThief Krow is more of an outlast the opp game, when LO is more of uneffectively try to revenge kill it, and try to live through the powerful burst of damage.
Similar Pokemon deal with the two sets, but you kinda have to play it a bit differently. LO Murkrow's only issue is its longevity, so doing things like forcing it out racking up SR is pretty much the best thing to do (sometimes, that feels like that's all you CAN do)
EDIT: I know I'm not heading this suspect test or anything but I just wanna ask a couple people some questions in this thread for the sake of discussion and understanding more about Murkrow.
1. Is it justified to run niche checks to Murkrow regardless of their function in the rest of the metagame (Bulky Tirtouga being the least extreme, then you hit shit like Shieldon)
2. Is using Murkrow really frowned upon by some players?
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Thanks so much for doing all these calcs as they certainly prove a point to how powerful Murkrow is but if you're running chinchou/archen to check murkrow, surely you would be investing more in defenses to actually be able to check it?
Edit: I'd like to respond to The Unlucky One's edit as well.
1. I don't think you should be so limited in teambuilding that you're forced to run pokemon that only have a favorable matchup against one popular pokemon. Sure, they have other uses such as setting up rocks but they're pretty bad other than checking Murkrow.
2. I've never personally seen people looking down upon using Murkrow, but I have seen many players refusing to use it because they think it's so broken.
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Murkrow
1) Is Murkrow broken?
A lot of focus in this topic has been put on LO Murkrow, and for good reason. Pretty much nothing can switch in on Brave Bird easily, Sucker Punch means that 20 Speeders and frail Scarfers aren't solid answers to it, and its coverage in Heat Wave and HP Grass are enough to cover anything its STABs do not vaporize. Others have done numerous calcs and more in-depth analysis on this set, so go check out some other posts for all that info. That said, I don't believe this set is the scariest thing about Murkrow. Murkrow is the threat that it is because of its diversity. Murkrow is the only Pokemon I can think of that can run every LC viable non-niche item, that being Berry Juice, Eviolite, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, and Focus Sash. Yeah SashKrow is neither common nor that good, but it can run it. To complement this, Murkrow has a movepool that is incredibly deep. Take a look at every move that, in my opinion, Murkrow can viably run:
That right there is 20 moves, which is ridiculous. Not all of them are common or make sense to be used on the same set, but the fact that it can use all these moves well means you are never sure what it runs until it makes a move, which is perhaps the most dangerous quality a Pokemon can have, in my opinion. Even once it makes a move, its possible set is only narrowed, not confirmed, unless of course it takes LO recoil or uses Berry Juice. Take Substitute for instance; if Murkrow uses that move, you have no extra information to go off of to determine its set. You could be facing the SubRoost set, the SubThief set, Sub + Swagger and TWave, or maybe something crazy like SubCM. Brave Bird isn't exactly indicative either, since it's on pretty much every set. This is the true breaking factor for Murkrow, not its power or its Speed. They are important, and very threatening, but without the ambiguity of Murkrow's movepool, it wouldn't be ban-worthy. Yes, Murkrow is broken.
Meditite
1) Is Meditite broken?
Meditite seems to be more of a controversial case, but I'll go out and say that yes, Meditite is broken. Meditite doesn't have Murkrow's Speed or huge movepool, but it does have raw power, and an oddly beneficial typing. That Psychic/Fighting typing is fantastic for Meditite, giving it dual STABs only resisted by pure Psychics and Slowpoke, the latter being the only one actually capable of switching in. Defensively, it gives it an excellent Fighting resist, which lets it beat every other Fighting-type in the metagame with ease. It also gets neutrality to Dark (Sucker Punch and Knock Off), Psychic (Abra and opposing Meditite), and Bug (U-turn), which means that none of these moves are capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing Meditite when they need to from full HP, making it deceptively bulky. The recovery it gets from Drain Punch complements this well making the Eviolite set very threatening if you lack a strong Flying-, Ghost-, or Fairy-type move. There's also the Scarf and LO sets to worry about, and while they aren't as common, they do deserve respect.
Scarf Meditite is both faster and more powerful than Life Orb Murkrow, without the recoil (assuming High Jump Kick does not miss). Here is an example:
196 Atk Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That is pretty awesome for the only downsides being choice-locking and Ghost-type mindgames. Life Orb, on the other hand, hits like a truck. That same Vullaby has a minuscule chance of being flat OHKOed by High Jump Kick, without Stealth Rock in play. Slowpoke is 2HKOed by HJK + Thunder Punch without SR and Spritzee is sometimes 2HKOed by HJK + Zen Headbutt with SR, leaving 100% HP Eviolite Misdreavus and Honedge as the only switch-ins capable of beating it on the next turn. While prediction plays a big part in both of the above sets, something not present in Life Orb Murkrow, Meditite is still very strong both offensively and defensively.
Much like Murkrow, I don't believe that any one of these three sets is broken individually. Rather, its the fact that the three sets have different checks and counters and the uncertainty of which set you are facing that makes Meditite such a problem. Little Cup will be much better off without both of these Pokemon in the metagame.
1) Is Murkrow broken?
A lot of focus in this topic has been put on LO Murkrow, and for good reason. Pretty much nothing can switch in on Brave Bird easily, Sucker Punch means that 20 Speeders and frail Scarfers aren't solid answers to it, and its coverage in Heat Wave and HP Grass are enough to cover anything its STABs do not vaporize. Others have done numerous calcs and more in-depth analysis on this set, so go check out some other posts for all that info. That said, I don't believe this set is the scariest thing about Murkrow. Murkrow is the threat that it is because of its diversity. Murkrow is the only Pokemon I can think of that can run every LC viable non-niche item, that being Berry Juice, Eviolite, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, and Focus Sash. Yeah SashKrow is neither common nor that good, but it can run it. To complement this, Murkrow has a movepool that is incredibly deep. Take a look at every move that, in my opinion, Murkrow can viably run:
Brave Bird
Sucker Punch
Heat Wave
HP Grass
Defog
Substitute
Roost
Thunder Wave
Swagger
Foul Play
Dark Pulse
FeatherDance
Pursuit
Tailwind
Thief
Taunt
Haze
Feint Attack
Rain Dance
Drill Peck
Sucker Punch
Heat Wave
HP Grass
Defog
Substitute
Roost
Thunder Wave
Swagger
Foul Play
Dark Pulse
FeatherDance
Pursuit
Tailwind
Thief
Taunt
Haze
Feint Attack
Rain Dance
Drill Peck
That right there is 20 moves, which is ridiculous. Not all of them are common or make sense to be used on the same set, but the fact that it can use all these moves well means you are never sure what it runs until it makes a move, which is perhaps the most dangerous quality a Pokemon can have, in my opinion. Even once it makes a move, its possible set is only narrowed, not confirmed, unless of course it takes LO recoil or uses Berry Juice. Take Substitute for instance; if Murkrow uses that move, you have no extra information to go off of to determine its set. You could be facing the SubRoost set, the SubThief set, Sub + Swagger and TWave, or maybe something crazy like SubCM. Brave Bird isn't exactly indicative either, since it's on pretty much every set. This is the true breaking factor for Murkrow, not its power or its Speed. They are important, and very threatening, but without the ambiguity of Murkrow's movepool, it wouldn't be ban-worthy. Yes, Murkrow is broken.
Meditite
1) Is Meditite broken?
Meditite seems to be more of a controversial case, but I'll go out and say that yes, Meditite is broken. Meditite doesn't have Murkrow's Speed or huge movepool, but it does have raw power, and an oddly beneficial typing. That Psychic/Fighting typing is fantastic for Meditite, giving it dual STABs only resisted by pure Psychics and Slowpoke, the latter being the only one actually capable of switching in. Defensively, it gives it an excellent Fighting resist, which lets it beat every other Fighting-type in the metagame with ease. It also gets neutrality to Dark (Sucker Punch and Knock Off), Psychic (Abra and opposing Meditite), and Bug (U-turn), which means that none of these moves are capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing Meditite when they need to from full HP, making it deceptively bulky. The recovery it gets from Drain Punch complements this well making the Eviolite set very threatening if you lack a strong Flying-, Ghost-, or Fairy-type move. There's also the Scarf and LO sets to worry about, and while they aren't as common, they do deserve respect.
Scarf Meditite is both faster and more powerful than Life Orb Murkrow, without the recoil (assuming High Jump Kick does not miss). Here is an example:
196 Atk Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That is pretty awesome for the only downsides being choice-locking and Ghost-type mindgames. Life Orb, on the other hand, hits like a truck. That same Vullaby has a minuscule chance of being flat OHKOed by High Jump Kick, without Stealth Rock in play. Slowpoke is 2HKOed by HJK + Thunder Punch without SR and Spritzee is sometimes 2HKOed by HJK + Zen Headbutt with SR, leaving 100% HP Eviolite Misdreavus and Honedge as the only switch-ins capable of beating it on the next turn. While prediction plays a big part in both of the above sets, something not present in Life Orb Murkrow, Meditite is still very strong both offensively and defensively.
Much like Murkrow, I don't believe that any one of these three sets is broken individually. Rather, its the fact that the three sets have different checks and counters and the uncertainty of which set you are facing that makes Meditite such a problem. Little Cup will be much better off without both of these Pokemon in the metagame.
Two Cents from me now
1) Is Murkrow / Meditite broken?
Murkrow: 19 Speed, MixLO, Swagplay, Subthief, SpclLO, Defensive (FD + CM) WHAT CANT YOU DO
Meditite: Pure Power makes you hit really really hard and LO/Scarf Tits is a bane
2) Is Murkrow / Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
Murkrow is a fave of mine and i wont miss him being banned. Subthief is annoying as hell.
Meditite go away. You're not hard to deal with overall just stop breaking my walls...
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Honestly yes. Meditite doesnt require as much as a prep to deal with, A well played SubThief Krow can live forever. As much as i like Krow it's a very hard to stop threat.
resttalk chou/sptizee seem to not care for it but meh im tired of being afraid of tits until it revealed.
#byebyebirdy #ohmban
(couldnt think of a funny hashtag for tits)
EDIT: the cals are real
1) Is Murkrow / Meditite broken?
Murkrow: 19 Speed, MixLO, Swagplay, Subthief, SpclLO, Defensive (FD + CM) WHAT CANT YOU DO
Meditite: Pure Power makes you hit really really hard and LO/Scarf Tits is a bane
2) Is Murkrow / Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
Murkrow is a fave of mine and i wont miss him being banned. Subthief is annoying as hell.
Meditite go away. You're not hard to deal with overall just stop breaking my walls...
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Honestly yes. Meditite doesnt require as much as a prep to deal with, A well played SubThief Krow can live forever. As much as i like Krow it's a very hard to stop threat.
resttalk chou/sptizee seem to not care for it but meh im tired of being afraid of tits until it revealed.
#byebyebirdy #ohmban
(couldnt think of a funny hashtag for tits)
EDIT: the cals are real
Krow- I don't have much to say here, Murkrow as sad as it is to say is really broken in the current metagame. The ability to sweep through unprepared teams and forcing everyone to run rest talk chinchou is just proof of it's brokennes.
Tite- Meditite hits way to hard and can be checked rather easily but it's near impossible to counter. I'll use slowpoke bam thunderpunch, I'll use spritzee bam bullet punch, the dual stabs allow it to hit nearly everything in the metagame for supereffective damage. It's easily revenge killed by pokemon such as scarf bunnelby but just like krow it can sweep through teams and restricts teambuilding ALOT I like using snubbull but I hate being forced to use this thing on all of my little cup teams.
Bottomline: Kill them withfire fairies!
Tite- Meditite hits way to hard and can be checked rather easily but it's near impossible to counter. I'll use slowpoke bam thunderpunch, I'll use spritzee bam bullet punch, the dual stabs allow it to hit nearly everything in the metagame for supereffective damage. It's easily revenge killed by pokemon such as scarf bunnelby but just like krow it can sweep through teams and restricts teambuilding ALOT I like using snubbull but I hate being forced to use this thing on all of my little cup teams.
Bottomline: Kill them with
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I'm going to try and keep this pretty short. I'll start with the obvious one.
Murkrow
1) Is Murkrow broken?
I'm not going to repeat what most everyone else has said. It does damage - and lots of it - to everything in the tier with the right moves. That doesn't make it completely broken, but that doesn't mean it should stay in the meta. Although its not broken in the fact that there are hard counters, it does require specific planning for. It's an over centralization issue, which I believe has been the precedent for many past bans. It's not that you can't beat it, it's that you have to plan to beat it.
2) Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
After dealing with it for awhile, it's not making it less fun for me, but it is definitely a hassle to deal with. As mentioned in 1, you have to plan for it, and that is severely limiting for team building. I have very little motivation to switch up my team makeup because I have at least two things I know can kill almost any murkrow set given the right play. Both are almostr guaranteed the kill and come out alive if at 100% and no switches occur from murkrows end. That said, them being around is definitely a win condition. A single pokemon being the determinant factor for a predominant amount of the meta could be not fun to many players.
My vote would be to get rid of it due to it causing over-centralization. It's rare to face a team without it, and almost every team above 1200 surely has at least one member of their team that is planned as a murkrow killer.
Meditite
1) Is Meditite broken?
As others have stated, its VERY strong (in a PURE POWER department), but I don't think it's broken. Unlike Murkrow, it doesn't require dedicated counters. There are several pokemon that do the job very well without strictly being added to a team as a Meditite counter. Again, I have two Pokemon that are almost guaranteed kills. In my experience, I can OHKO it with either Misdreavus or (inner focus) Darumaka consistently. Misdreavus was added as a general fighting killer, among being a great special attacker. Neither were specifically for Meditite, and neither are absolutely required to kill meditite, but make the job much easier.
2) Is Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
Again, I think this depends on the person. It doesn't affect me so much because I am experienced with dealing with it. I don't mind playing around it. It's one of those pokemon that, if the match is misplayed, can sweep your team. This is true for many of the high offense pokemon in LC.
My vote would be to keep it in LC this round and see how things play out. I don't think removing Murkrow will make it overly dominant because there are many other Pokemon that threaten it or outright counter it. I'd really rather avoid knee jerk bans based on how removing one Pokemon might affect another Pokemon's overall viability.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I would say that it sets a very high entry point for starting LC. After playing with them for weeks (and dealing with them in gen V), I'm fairly comfortable dancing around them. This isn't the case for people entering the meta fresh or people who just don't have as much experience. I think this is much more of a problem with Murkrow than Meditite, though. There are numerous checks and counters for Meditite that are probably on your team by accident, which isn't necessarily the case for Murkrow.
Murkrow
1) Is Murkrow broken?
I'm not going to repeat what most everyone else has said. It does damage - and lots of it - to everything in the tier with the right moves. That doesn't make it completely broken, but that doesn't mean it should stay in the meta. Although its not broken in the fact that there are hard counters, it does require specific planning for. It's an over centralization issue, which I believe has been the precedent for many past bans. It's not that you can't beat it, it's that you have to plan to beat it.
2) Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
After dealing with it for awhile, it's not making it less fun for me, but it is definitely a hassle to deal with. As mentioned in 1, you have to plan for it, and that is severely limiting for team building. I have very little motivation to switch up my team makeup because I have at least two things I know can kill almost any murkrow set given the right play. Both are almostr guaranteed the kill and come out alive if at 100% and no switches occur from murkrows end. That said, them being around is definitely a win condition. A single pokemon being the determinant factor for a predominant amount of the meta could be not fun to many players.
My vote would be to get rid of it due to it causing over-centralization. It's rare to face a team without it, and almost every team above 1200 surely has at least one member of their team that is planned as a murkrow killer.
Meditite
1) Is Meditite broken?
As others have stated, its VERY strong (in a PURE POWER department), but I don't think it's broken. Unlike Murkrow, it doesn't require dedicated counters. There are several pokemon that do the job very well without strictly being added to a team as a Meditite counter. Again, I have two Pokemon that are almost guaranteed kills. In my experience, I can OHKO it with either Misdreavus or (inner focus) Darumaka consistently. Misdreavus was added as a general fighting killer, among being a great special attacker. Neither were specifically for Meditite, and neither are absolutely required to kill meditite, but make the job much easier.
2) Is Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
Again, I think this depends on the person. It doesn't affect me so much because I am experienced with dealing with it. I don't mind playing around it. It's one of those pokemon that, if the match is misplayed, can sweep your team. This is true for many of the high offense pokemon in LC.
My vote would be to keep it in LC this round and see how things play out. I don't think removing Murkrow will make it overly dominant because there are many other Pokemon that threaten it or outright counter it. I'd really rather avoid knee jerk bans based on how removing one Pokemon might affect another Pokemon's overall viability.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I would say that it sets a very high entry point for starting LC. After playing with them for weeks (and dealing with them in gen V), I'm fairly comfortable dancing around them. This isn't the case for people entering the meta fresh or people who just don't have as much experience. I think this is much more of a problem with Murkrow than Meditite, though. There are numerous checks and counters for Meditite that are probably on your team by accident, which isn't necessarily the case for Murkrow.
Only thing I'm going to say about Murkrow: LO Krow (by itself at least) is not the problem. While it's certainly powerful, anything it fails to OHKO is going to KO it back. Plus LO Brave Bird leads to a TON of recoil damage, so it isn't going to last long. If Murkrow should be banned, it should be banned because of its versatility.
Meditite I absolutely want to see banned. I've seen a couple people call Meditite frail, but it really isn't. While its HP stat is admittedly horrible, it has only three weaknesses and can hit 21/21 defenses with Eviolite. On top of that, it can regain health with Drain Punch pretty easily. Even the LO set doesn't have bad longevity, especially considering how outrageously hard it hits. A couple of relevant calcs:
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Missy's strongest STAB move rarely OHKOs, and Meditite's weaker Psychic option does over 50%. And this is one of Meditite's best counters/checks.
Usually, the hardest hitters in the tier (LO Krow, Carvanha, Abra) are tough to switch in, but that's not the case with Meditite. Having a Fighting-type is basically mandatory in LC, and Meditite can switch into Fighting attacks with relative ease. And prediction is usually very easy with Meditite because hardly anything can switch in safely.
While I understand why they were banned, none of Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela, Gligar, and Swirlix deterred me from playing LC. I think Meditite, on the other hand, has made LC significantly less fun (it's certainly deterred me from playing over the past month). And it's only going to get worse if Murkrow is banned. I think Meditite deserves to be banned, if not because it's broken, then because of its negative impact on the LC metagame.
Meditite I absolutely want to see banned. I've seen a couple people call Meditite frail, but it really isn't. While its HP stat is admittedly horrible, it has only three weaknesses and can hit 21/21 defenses with Eviolite. On top of that, it can regain health with Drain Punch pretty easily. Even the LO set doesn't have bad longevity, especially considering how outrageously hard it hits. A couple of relevant calcs:
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Missy's strongest STAB move rarely OHKOs, and Meditite's weaker Psychic option does over 50%. And this is one of Meditite's best counters/checks.
Usually, the hardest hitters in the tier (LO Krow, Carvanha, Abra) are tough to switch in, but that's not the case with Meditite. Having a Fighting-type is basically mandatory in LC, and Meditite can switch into Fighting attacks with relative ease. And prediction is usually very easy with Meditite because hardly anything can switch in safely.
While I understand why they were banned, none of Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela, Gligar, and Swirlix deterred me from playing LC. I think Meditite, on the other hand, has made LC significantly less fun (it's certainly deterred me from playing over the past month). And it's only going to get worse if Murkrow is banned. I think Meditite deserves to be banned, if not because it's broken, then because of its negative impact on the LC metagame.
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my turn. I saw this thread last night but felt like it was safer to wait till the morning to reply cuz drunk n stuff
Murkrow
I agree with what seems to be the general consensus in that I think Murkrow is broken. Above post claims that LO Krow isn't the problem, but i think differently. Being able to 2hko the entire tier with Brave Bird+coverage makes Murkrow broken in the sense that it is both absurdly powerful and doesn't require much thinking to use (even someone who can't predict at all, using murkrow, is dangerous) The two main 'counters' to Murkrow are Chinchou and Archen, although they're not actual real counters (we have to lower the requirements for something to be a counter to find counters for murkrow. this should prove enough tbh). They're called counters because they are the mons who most reliably can switch into Murkrow, and heal off the damage later (rest/roost).
I know LO Murkrow is quite easy to wear down, but usually, it's not gonna happen before it gets one or two kills. This thing has no counters, and is therefore broken in my opinion.
I don't think SubThief Murkrow is broken, on the other hand, it's really fun to play with/play against because it usually results in interesting mindgames. For example, predicting the thief and giving murkrow a Choice item essentially makes it useless.
Another thing that makes Murkrow so much harder to deal with is it's versatility. You might be overprepared for MixKrow, and then get swept by any of it's other, more obscure sets.
Finally, Murkrow has the ability to stop nearly any sweep with a priority Thunder Wave or Haze. There are mons that do the same (Fletchling with it's strong Acrobatics), but they are devoted to this role instead of being able to be a force on multiple topics at once.
I really don't see why people would want Murkrow to stay, if anyone knows something, quote this line and reply.
I think this answers question 1, so 2 and 3 are unessecary
Meditite
I believe Meditite is not broken, although i'm still somewhat hanging on the fence.Meditite is an incredible force in the current metagame, but that's about it. It's predictable in the way that you know it'll run Dual Stab*+2 coverage, and it is surprisingly easy to guess the coverage by looking at the opposing team ( Ask yourself the following questions: What is the opposing team weak to? Which mon does meditite want to catch off-guard so another mon can sweep?) Fighting and Psychic are both incredible attacking types in the current metagame, but both have the same major downside: Immunities. The average LC team has a ghost and at least one dark type (sometimes even up to 3), which means that whichever move you choose, there is a way that the opponent can escape harmless from the situation. most Psychic-types and Spritzee also do a pretty good job against Meditite, as they can all switch in on both of Tite's STABS. Meditite's slow speed also means that it's really easy to take the momentum back with something like Fletchling, Murkrow or Misdreavus. (if Meditite is a little weakened, pretty much anything that outspeeds it will suffice)
Scarf Meditite is interesting. I've heard people say that it is both more powerful and faster than Murkrow, which makes it broken, but HJK isn't as good of a move as Brave Bird. Lock yourself into HJK, and the following things could happen:
A similar thing can be said about locking into ZHB.
I actually think the main thing Scarf Meditite has going for it is Trick. If it manages to trick something like Spritzee, it becomes useless and pure setup material for heaps of things. But there are other mons which can do the same, and we're not even thinking about banning them.
To conclude, Meditite is certainly a force to take into consideration, but it can be dealt with quite easily by most teams, even those who didn't consider Meditite during teambuilding often carry at least one of it's checks and/or counters. It's not broken, it just causes some fun mindgames, and who doesn't like those?
*except when facing Artemisa, appearantly
Murkrow
I agree with what seems to be the general consensus in that I think Murkrow is broken. Above post claims that LO Krow isn't the problem, but i think differently. Being able to 2hko the entire tier with Brave Bird+coverage makes Murkrow broken in the sense that it is both absurdly powerful and doesn't require much thinking to use (even someone who can't predict at all, using murkrow, is dangerous) The two main 'counters' to Murkrow are Chinchou and Archen, although they're not actual real counters (we have to lower the requirements for something to be a counter to find counters for murkrow. this should prove enough tbh). They're called counters because they are the mons who most reliably can switch into Murkrow, and heal off the damage later (rest/roost).
I know LO Murkrow is quite easy to wear down, but usually, it's not gonna happen before it gets one or two kills. This thing has no counters, and is therefore broken in my opinion.
I don't think SubThief Murkrow is broken, on the other hand, it's really fun to play with/play against because it usually results in interesting mindgames. For example, predicting the thief and giving murkrow a Choice item essentially makes it useless.
Another thing that makes Murkrow so much harder to deal with is it's versatility. You might be overprepared for MixKrow, and then get swept by any of it's other, more obscure sets.
Finally, Murkrow has the ability to stop nearly any sweep with a priority Thunder Wave or Haze. There are mons that do the same (Fletchling with it's strong Acrobatics), but they are devoted to this role instead of being able to be a force on multiple topics at once.
I really don't see why people would want Murkrow to stay, if anyone knows something, quote this line and reply.
I think this answers question 1, so 2 and 3 are unessecary
Meditite
I believe Meditite is not broken, although i'm still somewhat hanging on the fence.Meditite is an incredible force in the current metagame, but that's about it. It's predictable in the way that you know it'll run Dual Stab*+2 coverage, and it is surprisingly easy to guess the coverage by looking at the opposing team ( Ask yourself the following questions: What is the opposing team weak to? Which mon does meditite want to catch off-guard so another mon can sweep?) Fighting and Psychic are both incredible attacking types in the current metagame, but both have the same major downside: Immunities. The average LC team has a ghost and at least one dark type (sometimes even up to 3), which means that whichever move you choose, there is a way that the opponent can escape harmless from the situation. most Psychic-types and Spritzee also do a pretty good job against Meditite, as they can all switch in on both of Tite's STABS. Meditite's slow speed also means that it's really easy to take the momentum back with something like Fletchling, Murkrow or Misdreavus. (if Meditite is a little weakened, pretty much anything that outspeeds it will suffice)
Scarf Meditite is interesting. I've heard people say that it is both more powerful and faster than Murkrow, which makes it broken, but HJK isn't as good of a move as Brave Bird. Lock yourself into HJK, and the following things could happen:
Worst case scenario: The opponent switches right into their Ghost-Type. They get a free turn and you lose half your health
Most common scenario: They switch in a possible counter, not wanting to risk ZHB 2HKO'ing their only HJK immunity. If it's 2hko'd, the opponent can either directly switch to Misdreavus or stay in and ensure the free turn.
Most common scenario: They switch in a possible counter, not wanting to risk ZHB 2HKO'ing their only HJK immunity. If it's 2hko'd, the opponent can either directly switch to Misdreavus or stay in and ensure the free turn.
I actually think the main thing Scarf Meditite has going for it is Trick. If it manages to trick something like Spritzee, it becomes useless and pure setup material for heaps of things. But there are other mons which can do the same, and we're not even thinking about banning them.
To conclude, Meditite is certainly a force to take into consideration, but it can be dealt with quite easily by most teams, even those who didn't consider Meditite during teambuilding often carry at least one of it's checks and/or counters. It's not broken, it just causes some fun mindgames, and who doesn't like those?
*except when facing Artemisa, appearantly
Chinchou and Archen Are NOT counters to murkrow:
To counter a pokemon:Must switch into it on worst move possible and on hazards , Then take an attack if slower
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 232 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 232 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Ohko with dark pulse(on the switch) and stealth rock)
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Ohko with dark pulse on the switch)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archen: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO(Ohko with rocks or a high roll)
Life orb Murkrow moveset consists of Sucker punch(a must) , Heat wave(Also a must??) And Brave bird(a must) If LO murkrow started to run dark pulse , with good prediction skills it will remove chinchou and archen from being counters
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 27-32 (81.8 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Belly juice lax stall it out with recycle)
Now this is the only "counter" I can find to LO murkrow but munch loses to thief set , and the issue of swirlix continue again(Having lots of sets each are counterable by Different pokes).
Low roll + High roll from both dark pulse and sucker punch ohko chinchou , even without hazards,Not to mention the chance of dark pulse flinching.
Edit:
-1 236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Onix: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok Apparently snubbull is a counter w/o hazards(since belly drum)-Evio onix is 2hko'ed while Berry drum is scared of a flinch or a (high roll+hazard)
A set of Berry juice+Nasty plot/Choice Specs Krow with HP poison Dark pulse Air cutter Heat wave might remove out some counters and the issue of swirlix continue But then again it makes munchlax - lickitung etc.. great counters to it
To counter a pokemon:Must switch into it on worst move possible and on hazards , Then take an attack if slower
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 232 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 232 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Ohko with dark pulse(on the switch) and stealth rock)
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Eviolite Archen: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Archen: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Ohko with dark pulse on the switch)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archen: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO(Ohko with rocks or a high roll)
Life orb Murkrow moveset consists of Sucker punch(a must) , Heat wave(Also a must??) And Brave bird(a must) If LO murkrow started to run dark pulse , with good prediction skills it will remove chinchou and archen from being counters
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 27-32 (81.8 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Belly juice lax stall it out with recycle)
Now this is the only "counter" I can find to LO murkrow but munch loses to thief set , and the issue of swirlix continue again(Having lots of sets each are counterable by Different pokes).
Low roll + High roll from both dark pulse and sucker punch ohko chinchou , even without hazards,Not to mention the chance of dark pulse flinching.
Edit:
-1 236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Onix: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok Apparently snubbull is a counter w/o hazards(since belly drum)-Evio onix is 2hko'ed while Berry drum is scared of a flinch or a (high roll+hazard)
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As i said, when talking about murkrow, we are pretty much forced to lower the standards for calling other pokémons counters and checks. Murkrow has ways to beat all of it's counters, we all know that
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 27-32 (81.8 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Belly Drum lax stall it out with recycle)
(i think you mean berry juice)
Berry juice actually only heals about 60% of Munchlax's health, which means that Brave Bird is still always a 2hko (granted, recoil would probably kill it)
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 27-32 (81.8 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Belly Drum lax stall it out with recycle)
(i think you mean berry juice)
Berry juice actually only heals about 60% of Munchlax's health, which means that Brave Bird is still always a 2hko (granted, recoil would probably kill it)
dude wtf are these calcs? which chou runs 0 hp? Why this munchlax isn't 31/14?(31/14 is the spread dedicated to beat LO krow, and drumlax isn't even a thing)
calcs irrelevant imo
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 236+ Def Munchlax: 21-27 (67.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this munchie comes for free,drinks BJ,spams recycle till krow is dead/beats with bodyslam.(doesn't apply to thiefkrow)
now some words from uncle Abs
Murkrow
Be honest folks; who never got pissed off after seeing Krow stealing your precious Berry Juice/Evio, then often KOing the helpless victim next turn?
While I'm huge fan of Murkrow (BROKEN STUFF IS FUN TO USE; RIP SNEASEL), I'm really looking forward to play LC metagame without it. This thing FORCES player to run Chinchou/Munchlax just to not lose a pokemon while switching into that powerful Brave Bird - that restricts teambuilding alot - most players have only 5 slots to use since one is reserved for Chinchou 90% of the time.
Another argument against Murkrow is what others said before - it has too many sets to prepare for. Infamous SubThief set can even muscle its way through pokemon dedicated to check the LO set; not many pokemon can be so unpredictable and deadly at the same time(we're talking about more than 3-4 viable sets)
Tons of Prankster-boosted annoying priority moves make it even worse to handle - one just cannot predict incoming Thunder Wave, and most of the time it ends up with 2 or more pokemon paralyzed just to get rid of damn Murkrow.
I cannot stress how many games for me Krow "won" alone, but something is wrong when one pokemon can take down half of opponent's team without much hassle.
Yeah, LO krow dies easily - but unlike most other wallbreakers, Krow can kill much more pokemon throughout the match, often simply sweeping helpless opponent.
19 SPEED WITH THAT MUCH POWER = BAN MATERIAL
Meditite
While very strong, it's far from the Murkrow's level of brokenness. It's much easier to check and it doesn't force player to run something just to beat it; Both of Meditite's STABs have easy to exploit impunities(RIP POKEMON COMING ON MISPREDICTED MOVE), and even though it has good bulk, it lacks speed - another advantage for the opponent.
I can't deny the fact that Meditite has no hardcounters outside weirdass pokemon like Elgyem(i'm running Baton Pass to run from Wynaut),but softer checks dedicated to beat Meditite are often viable options to run anyway - capable of doing other things than just beating Meditite. Also, it's much easier to revenge Meditite since it has much weaker nonstab prio/lower speed
.(btw i haven't seen drypass Tite except my own - Wynaut takes care of the ones without batonpass and many other pokemon too - most underrated thing rn).
Scarf Trick is the set that often made me laugh at these incoming Spritzees eating a Trick; Now i have momentum, opponent's wall is crippled,+ some bulk from evio is always nice.
Meditite is much easier to play around since it doesn't punish mistakes/mispredicts nearly as hard as Murkrow does, and it's not that hard to take advantage of its subpar speed(compared to krow). It has some good checks(depends on coverage) but unlike murkrow it cannot break through them without appropiate coverage options(no spammable move due to immunities to both stabs) and like I said before - it doesn't force player to run weird things, since good team should have more than one good check to Meditite without even taking it into account while building.
tl;dr = i'm pro-ban @ krow
against ban @ tits
I used the default spread in the calc since i don't have any experience using chinchou/munch etc. , Also it's berry juice lax , I accidently spelt it out , Also a high roll on that lax (27+24(or higher) vs 31 + 20) makes a 2hko
Edit:84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 232 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Still 0.4% Chance to 2hko Is raised by hazards , And there is also a flinch chance by dark pulse (0.4 chance 2hko Raised by hazards , 30% chance flinch and a chance to criticial) not a complete counter imo (run any more SpD and get destroyed by sucker punch)
Edit:
1) Is Murkrow broken? Once again the issue of swirlix , tons of good sets and each one have a different counter, it's annoying to switch my tirtouga on lo krow to meet with thief krow etc..,I'd say yes
2) Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
Using op pokemons is fun , Fighting them is not
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Short answer:Yes
Edit:84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 232 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Still 0.4% Chance to 2hko Is raised by hazards , And there is also a flinch chance by dark pulse (0.4 chance 2hko Raised by hazards , 30% chance flinch and a chance to criticial) not a complete counter imo (run any more SpD and get destroyed by sucker punch)
Edit:
1) Is Murkrow broken? Once again the issue of swirlix , tons of good sets and each one have a different counter, it's annoying to switch my tirtouga on lo krow to meet with thief krow etc..,I'd say yes
2) Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
Using op pokemons is fun , Fighting them is not
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Short answer:Yes
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Did some Meditite calcs:
I don't think using "it doesn't force the player to run weird things" is a viable argument. From the calcs I ran above, there are only a select few pokemon capable of just barely not being 2KO'd; even though Meditite has the moves to surprise them. Like how you run Baton Pass to escape Wynaut, another player could run Poison Jab for Spritzee, while still getting a 2KO on Misdreavus with Psycho Cut. Admittingly, if thats the case then Meditite becomes walled by Slowpoke and Honedge; though it can use Thunderpunch and Firepunch to surprise them. Its impossible to know which coverage move it might be using; if you bring wynaut it can just BP away, if you bring Slowpoke it can fry you with Tpunch, if you pack Spritzee it can 2KO with Poison Jab. This would force you to run multiple counters just incase your opponent runs a different move then you expected.
Remember Swirlix? Its a lot like that, only except Meditite does it without any boosts.
VS. Spritzee:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 8-10 (29.6 - 37%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
VS. Misdreavus:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 14-18 (50 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Exeggcute:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 196+ Def Exeggcute: 6-7 (27.2 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 196+ Def Exeggcute: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
VS. Honedge:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
VS. Solosis:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solosis: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solosis: 8-10 (33.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(No Defense EVS)
VS. Stunky:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Stunky: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Dwebble:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 8-10 (29.6 - 37%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
VS. Misdreavus:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Slowpoke:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 14-18 (50 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Exeggcute:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 196+ Def Exeggcute: 6-7 (27.2 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 196+ Def Exeggcute: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
VS. Honedge:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
VS. Solosis:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solosis: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solosis: 8-10 (33.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(No Defense EVS)
VS. Stunky:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Stunky: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Dwebble:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
VS. Spritzee:
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Misdreavus:
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
VS. Slowpoke:
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Slowpoke Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Slowpoke Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Exeggcute:
76 SpA Exeggcute Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 SpA Exeggcute Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
VS. Honedge:
196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-14 (63.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
VS. Solosis:
0+ SpA Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 10-14 (52.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Not entirely sure what EVs this runs)
VS. Stunky:
252 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Stunky Crunch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
76 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
76 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
VS. Pawniard (Scarf):
236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Flechling:
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-14 (63.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Murkrow:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 26-32 (136.8 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
VS. Mienfoo:
236+ Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 5-7 (26.3 - 36.8%) -- 15.5% chance to 3HKO
236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Misdreavus:
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
VS. Slowpoke:
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Slowpoke Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Slowpoke Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
VS. Exeggcute:
76 SpA Exeggcute Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 SpA Exeggcute Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 6-7 (31.5 - 36.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
VS. Honedge:
196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-14 (63.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
VS. Solosis:
0+ SpA Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 10-14 (52.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Not entirely sure what EVs this runs)
VS. Stunky:
252 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Stunky Crunch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
VS. Vullaby:
76 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
76 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
VS. Pawniard (Scarf):
236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Flechling:
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-14 (63.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Murkrow:
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 26-32 (136.8 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
VS. Mienfoo:
236+ Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 5-7 (26.3 - 36.8%) -- 15.5% chance to 3HKO
236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I don't think using "it doesn't force the player to run weird things" is a viable argument. From the calcs I ran above, there are only a select few pokemon capable of just barely not being 2KO'd; even though Meditite has the moves to surprise them. Like how you run Baton Pass to escape Wynaut, another player could run Poison Jab for Spritzee, while still getting a 2KO on Misdreavus with Psycho Cut. Admittingly, if thats the case then Meditite becomes walled by Slowpoke and Honedge; though it can use Thunderpunch and Firepunch to surprise them. Its impossible to know which coverage move it might be using; if you bring wynaut it can just BP away, if you bring Slowpoke it can fry you with Tpunch, if you pack Spritzee it can 2KO with Poison Jab. This would force you to run multiple counters just incase your opponent runs a different move then you expected.
Remember Swirlix? Its a lot like that, only except Meditite does it without any boosts.
One question that I have to ask is whether or not having no counters is a factor in making something broken. I personally do not believe it is, as you can make the case that many things in the metagame have no counters, only checks.
The flipside of that question is, of course, does having a fairly large number of checks make something not broken? Krow has almost no counters, outside of Chinchou and Munchlax, both of whom can be defeated by different sets (ThiefKrow and SwagPlay). However, Krow does have checks, mostly in scarf sets, but there are a few things that are able to 100% of the time check Krow.
LC is a meta where speed is essential. Speeds range from Munchlax to the fantastic 19 speed where threatening foes such as Murkrow and Misdreavus lie. But there are others. The fearsome 20 speed Pokemon.
Of the very few Pokemon that outspeed Murkrow, we get Elekid and Voltorb. Elekid has its powerful LO set, which allows it to outspeed and defeat the deadly Krow.
236 Atk Life Orb Elekid Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Murkrow: 23-31 (104.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 23-31 (104.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But wait, you cry, the Krow has a cowardly sucker punch to throw at those who would fairly outspeed it! True, but the mighty Elekid scorns such cowardly tactics.
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Elekid's electric brethren in speeding around the meta, Voltorb, also looks upon the Krow with hate and makes it feel electric wrath.
236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Voltorb: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While the final speedster of the tier, Diglett, is unable to OHKO without rocks and is likely to be OHKOed by a sucker punch, these two show that even the mighty Krow has its checks, even if a small number.
(Note that this is for illustration purposes. The real point is that not having counters does not make something broken automatically, and that having checks does not make something not broken. They should only be used to inform a decision, not as the basis for banning. I do support the banning of Murkrow.
Also, Blizzardy, for the defense cals you have to take into account that those give Meditite only 12 speed, making many of those things checks. Also, you might want to edit that Fletchling to have no item for the acrobatics.)
The flipside of that question is, of course, does having a fairly large number of checks make something not broken? Krow has almost no counters, outside of Chinchou and Munchlax, both of whom can be defeated by different sets (ThiefKrow and SwagPlay). However, Krow does have checks, mostly in scarf sets, but there are a few things that are able to 100% of the time check Krow.
LC is a meta where speed is essential. Speeds range from Munchlax to the fantastic 19 speed where threatening foes such as Murkrow and Misdreavus lie. But there are others. The fearsome 20 speed Pokemon.
Of the very few Pokemon that outspeed Murkrow, we get Elekid and Voltorb. Elekid has its powerful LO set, which allows it to outspeed and defeat the deadly Krow.
236 Atk Life Orb Elekid Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Murkrow: 23-31 (104.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 23-31 (104.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But wait, you cry, the Krow has a cowardly sucker punch to throw at those who would fairly outspeed it! True, but the mighty Elekid scorns such cowardly tactics.
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Elekid's electric brethren in speeding around the meta, Voltorb, also looks upon the Krow with hate and makes it feel electric wrath.
236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Voltorb: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While the final speedster of the tier, Diglett, is unable to OHKO without rocks and is likely to be OHKOed by a sucker punch, these two show that even the mighty Krow has its checks, even if a small number.
(Note that this is for illustration purposes. The real point is that not having counters does not make something broken automatically, and that having checks does not make something not broken. They should only be used to inform a decision, not as the basis for banning. I do support the banning of Murkrow.
Also, Blizzardy, for the defense cals you have to take into account that those give Meditite only 12 speed, making many of those things checks. Also, you might want to edit that Fletchling to have no item for the acrobatics.)
I'll keep this short.
Meditite
Perfect neutral coverage so nothing can outright counter it, but a few things that are quite common can check it. Bulky psychics, Murkrow (though he's going fo sho), Fletchling, and many other things can threaten it very well. However, Meditite is NOT broken, just that if Murkrow goes Meditites going to dominate LC. It isn't that versatile, so you can easily guess what kind of set it's using. Life Orb and Eviolite and a bit less Choice Scarf are quite common on Meditite, and it always runs HJK/DP , PsyCut/ZenHead , Ice/ThunderPunch, and either BulletP/FireP/Trick depending on the set or preference.
TLDR: Meditite is not broken. Yet.
Murkrow:
lol. Incredible versatility, sky-high offensive stats, and decent bulk considering it's a "glass cannon". It gets good stab to make use of too. It has no true counter, since it gets perfect SE coverage on anything that's common. There's honestly not much to say.
TLDR: Murkrow is broken.
Meditite
Perfect neutral coverage so nothing can outright counter it, but a few things that are quite common can check it. Bulky psychics, Murkrow (though he's going fo sho), Fletchling, and many other things can threaten it very well. However, Meditite is NOT broken, just that if Murkrow goes Meditites going to dominate LC. It isn't that versatile, so you can easily guess what kind of set it's using. Life Orb and Eviolite and a bit less Choice Scarf are quite common on Meditite, and it always runs HJK/DP , PsyCut/ZenHead , Ice/ThunderPunch, and either BulletP/FireP/Trick depending on the set or preference.
TLDR: Meditite is not broken. Yet.
Murkrow:
lol. Incredible versatility, sky-high offensive stats, and decent bulk considering it's a "glass cannon". It gets good stab to make use of too. It has no true counter, since it gets perfect SE coverage on anything that's common. There's honestly not much to say.
TLDR: Murkrow is broken.
Lol, I like mind games too, but Meditite being a coinflip is too not a healthy way to deal with it and really shouldn't be used as support + You will be royally fucked if you lose the 50/50 which isn't fun. Really you can say the same thing with LO Krow, since that thing has to predict accurately or else it will just lose recoil. Since many people want to use prediction as justification as a way why Meditite isn't broken, lets use LO Krow aswell. A combination of two pokemon for example SP def Tirtouga + Lileep can put LO Krow in pure 50/50's and both of them can set up SR to pressure LO. "What is the opposing team weak to?" pretty hard to do since the "common" team which is like the 3M's + Pawniard (I believe) and the types that can easily exploit this are Fire / Water / Electric / Fairy and also combination mons for example Dark/Fighting can also exploit this. Solid teams that have resist/answer to everything can also help keep the moveset hidden from Meditite since it doesn't need to show it out because the team can handle the obstacle stopping Meditite. During late game, it can suprise the user by showing that coverage move costing the player it's best counter to Meditite. You are playing Russian Roulette with this thing.
Yeah it can't run every single move, but you can't just take it the fact that it can't run the move period. It has a lot of sets it can efficiently run with many possible combinations and doesn't even need a LO boost to hit hard. Doing 40% or more with non stab neutral moves because of pure power is pretty strong lol.
Revenge killing shouldn't even be supported as an argument because every pokemon can easily be revenge killed. Also the term Revenge Killing means you have to fodder something to bring the mon in, it can't switch in at all and risk being ko'd if it tries to switch in.
Murkrow-
What I hate is that SubThief Krow is a thing because of BJ, it wouldn't be as good or appealing as subthief oran berry. It exist however which sucks. Also speaking of BJ Recycle mons can wear down LO Krow, really that instant recovery can let mons absorb brave bird and and constantly take wear it down. I also feel the Murkrow being extremely versatile is kinda overhyped, if it doesn't run LO it will lose out on 2hko's and many walls like Spritzee / Lileep / Porygon / Archen / Tirtouga / Shieldon (my personal favorite ) / Lickitung / Chinchou / Amaura (Defensive which is possible, choice scarf isn't the only viable set) / Pawniard / Snubbull (Rest Talk Heal bell) , etc etc. To decide whether the set is LO or some Prankster Variant all you have to do is switch in a flying resist and scout the item, what's also good is that almost 100% of the time the prankster variant can be handled by the same pokemon mentioned in the list and can ko it or wear it down by status / recoil / or attacks. Murkrow has more of a 4MSS than Meditite and the pranksters set won't break walls without sacrificing one move.
Offensive teams will of course be pressured a lot by LO Krow since offensive teams don't have many mons that hits well even with eviolite. Defensive teams can handle Murkrow pretty well, hell even some balanced teams with a good core can also wear down LO Murkrow. Teams like Missy / Murkrow / Meditite / Pawniard / etc / etc will have trouble switching in since the only flying resist is Pawniard and it can't take a Heat Wave at all, I don't think anyibe of those 4 mons can take a heat wave aswell. I don't feel Murkrow is broken.
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post about Murkrow, will argue for Meditite's non-brokenness later when I've read the thread more.
Murkrow is a shit basically. LO Krow 2HKOs the entire tier. Its combination of 19 Speed and strong STAB priority means it barely needs any prediction, since it can just spam Brave Bird and follow up with another move. Its best counters, Chinchou and Archen can be 2HKOd after hazards, and Chinchou is prone to being worn down, even RestTalk variants. BJ munchlax is a good counter to LO, but gets really fucked over by Subthief Krow which is very popular at the moment, and very effective at weakening its counter. Archen also gets wrecked by SubThief as well, losing its eviolite means it can't wall it anymore. Also, Artemisa's list of things that can take on Prankster non LO krow, can be beaten by with Thief
Krow is also really centralising, I find it really restrictive in teambuilding. I'm pretty much forced to run Chinchou in half my teams just for Krow, and also am required to carry another check most the time. It's really making teambuilding not fun, because I have such a huge threat that I need 2 or 3 ways to handle.
basically, it can get past counters really easily with subthief, and LO requires no prediction skills whatsoever. Other people have said more stuff, so I'll keep this post short
Also fuck Swagger Krow.
Murkrow is a shit basically. LO Krow 2HKOs the entire tier. Its combination of 19 Speed and strong STAB priority means it barely needs any prediction, since it can just spam Brave Bird and follow up with another move. Its best counters, Chinchou and Archen can be 2HKOd after hazards, and Chinchou is prone to being worn down, even RestTalk variants. BJ munchlax is a good counter to LO, but gets really fucked over by Subthief Krow which is very popular at the moment, and very effective at weakening its counter. Archen also gets wrecked by SubThief as well, losing its eviolite means it can't wall it anymore. Also, Artemisa's list of things that can take on Prankster non LO krow, can be beaten by with Thief
Krow is also really centralising, I find it really restrictive in teambuilding. I'm pretty much forced to run Chinchou in half my teams just for Krow, and also am required to carry another check most the time. It's really making teambuilding not fun, because I have such a huge threat that I need 2 or 3 ways to handle.
basically, it can get past counters really easily with subthief, and LO requires no prediction skills whatsoever. Other people have said more stuff, so I'll keep this post short
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