np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[Delibird is Amazing]

Foul Play is better though on that set, hell you could even use that set without an attacking move to make room for Spikes.

klefki has high enough attack to do actual damage with play rough

4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 206-246 (56.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 246-290 (90.7 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 246-290 (90.7 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 194-230 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 288-340 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 176-210 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 156-186 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

even against stuff that isn't weak to fairy

4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 93-111 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 109-129 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 109-129 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 115-136 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

granted the ones that aren't weak to fairy are all frail stuff but foul play can be unreliable and no attacking moves makes you taunt bait

 

[ArcanineLion]

What would be considered the standard Klefki set? Barring any ones with Swagger.

Dual Screens, Spikes & Foul Play @ Light Clay/Leftovers. Max HP with the rest split between the defences. Works well as a lead. Sub & T-wave isn't uncommon either. Although I don't use Klefki so anyone who's more versed with it can probably correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

The thing about Klefki is it can stop most sweepers with a pirority T-wave and all the while being hard to wear down thanks to its typing and mediocre bulk. Unlike Liepard, it can perform other utility roles such as dual screens and spikes, and unlike Meowstic it doesn't have a shit typing that lets it killed by priority before getting that T-wave off.

This is like a double edged sword. Meanwhile it stops DD and SD sweepers from being too overpowered (which most aren't aleady as they struggle to find setup chances) it also forces you to basically employ a bulky, slow sweeper (i.e. CroCune, CMReun) or ones that are immune to T-wave (i.e. Absol, CMRaikou) if you don't want Klefki to ruin your day

 

[EonX]

Weavile going to BL is probably going to be approached again in the future at some point. While I do feel it is BL for that insane Speed and crazy good utility/cleaning move in Knock Off, the bulk issue will probably make its BL status be questioned again down the line.

Anyway, as for Klefki, the Swagger ban hurts it, no doubt. But if you're trying to tell me that a priority T-Wave that can quickly stop something like Shao, Victini, Darm, Cloyster, etc., from effectively cleaning through your team isn't incredibly useful, you're kidding yourself. Klefki is a fantastic support Pokemon for offensive teams thanks to its access to Dual Screens, Spikes, TWave, and Foul Play. Feel like this set will probably become the most common:

Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Nature: Bold
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes / Foul Play​

This is the set I see Klefki using most often now with the Swagger ban. Dual Screens is huge for offensive teams as it allows otherwise frail Pokemon like Shao, Darm, and MegaDoom take hits as they setup or plow through the opposition. T-Wave is super clutch as it can be used as a last ditch effort to stop something from cleaning through the rest of the team. Spikes is the primary choice in the last slot to provide further support, but considering Roserade fits well on most offensive teams and can also utilize Spikes, Foul Play is certainly usable to prevent Klefki from becoming Taunt bait. EVs maximize physical bulk while rounding down entry hazard damage. Calm can be used with a SpDef spread if you wish.
Other sets Klefki can use include a rain support set and a dual status set with T-Wave + Toxic to cripple sweepers and walls alike. I've probably said this before, but I view Klefki as a defensive Thundurus-I from Gen V. It gives a priority Thunder Wave to cold stop any non-Lum Berry sweeper in a pinch while providing other forms of support in Dual Screens, Spikes, and/or Rain Dance when cold stopping a sweeper isn't necessary.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

all the while being hard to wear down thanks to its typing and mediocre bulk.

Did you mean to say good bulk? Because this here doesn't make sense.

Yeah it's better than Meowstic and Liepard and pretty much every other prankster, but I still don't see it being broken. Especially since there's two whole types immune to Thunder Wave, and a handful of stuff like base-form Manectric who really does enjoy switching into a Thunder Wave.

 

[Punchshroom]

I actually find Play Rough to be the superior option for Klefki in UU, simply because there are more notable targets to hit, and because Foul Play kind of does jack shit against nearly everything it hits, and opponents that Foul Play does hit (Azelf, Victini, Jirachi, Durant, and Darmanitan) heavily dislike Thunder Wave anyway. The only true targets of Foul Play that I see are Trevenant and Mega Banette, but both can burn you anyway.

Some of Play Rough's notable targets are Umbreon, Honchkrow, Mega Absol, Kyurem, Heracross, Krookodile, Mega Ampharos, Sableye, and Flygon, almost all of whom can either shrug off Thunder Wave, or resist / won't fall to Foul Play. Dazzling Gleam can be an option, but Play Rough's better damage against Umbreon is very noticeable; you don't want it coming in on Klefki repeatedly and Heal Belling its team. That said, Dazzling Gleam can wreck Sableye, so that's always a plus.

Granted, Fairy STAB is a better option on non-Dual Screen Klefkis, which rely more on status (Toxic is great against T-Wave absorbers) to wear down opponents, so Fairy moves can strike most absorbers harder. Even then, Dual Screens Klefki can usually afford to run no attacking moves at all since Taunt users are rare, and the common Prankster Taunt users are slower than Klefki anyway.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Did you mean to say good bulk? Because this here doesn't make sense.

Yeah it's better than Meowstic and Liepard and pretty much every other prankster, but I still don't see it being broken. Especially since there's two whole types immune to Thunder Wave, and a handful of stuff like base-form Manectric who really does enjoy switching into a Thunder Wave.

Well tbh it is its typing that saves it. 57/91/87 defenses are really mediocre. To put into perspective Weavile has 70/65/85 bulk lol.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Well tbh it is its typing that saves it. 57/91/87 defenses are really mediocre. To put into perspective Weavile has 70/65/85 bulk lol.

Although that's true, Klefki has arguably one of the best defensive typings in the game, so even though it has 57/91/87 (which aren't all that bad honestly), its resistances give it better survivability as a defensive pokemon.

 

[-Flygon-]

You know, now that Swagger is banned, I don't see why it's as much of a problem. SwagPlay was deadly and overpowered, but now that Klefki's main strategy is out the window, it basically has dual screens and status. It has mediocre stats, and Taunt, which is a pretty standard move, imo, laughs in Klefki's face. I've never once had a problem with Klefki, in any tier. This could just be me, but I don't think Klefki is ban-worthy. It's good, but not OP.

 

[RotomPoison]

You know, now that Swagger is banned, I don't see why it's as much of a problem. SwagPlay was deadly and overpowered, but now that Klefki's main strategy is out the window, it basically has dual screens and status. It has mediocre stats, and Taunt, which is a pretty standard move, imo, laughs in Klefki's face. I've never once had a problem with Klefki, in any tier. This could just be me, but I don't think Klefki is ban-worthy. It's good, but not OP.

Screens and TWave + attack or Spikes is the biggest reason. Not the best bulk (still very usable) but amazing typing.

 

[-Flygon-]

Screens and TWave + attack or Spikes is the biggest reason. Not the best bulk (still very usable) but amazing typing.

I guess so, it just seems as though Klefki isn't as big of a threat now, thanks to the Swagger ban, and is no longer ban-worthy per say. The typing is good, but it's still weak to Fire and Ground, both of which are amazing offensive types, and one of which isn't even affected by T-Wave. Like I said, it's good, just not ban-worthy.

 

[ArcanineLion]

I guess so, it just seems as though Klefki isn't as big of a threat now, thanks to the Swagger ban, and is no longer ban-worthy per say. The typing is good, but it's still weak to Fire and Ground, both of which are amazing offensive types, and one of which isn't even affected by T-Wave. Like I said, it's good, just not ban-worthy.

It's best set was always supporting with Screens & hazards anyway. The SwagPlay set only became annoying when paired with other teammates that did the same thing. Maybe now Klefki can actually be seen as a good supportive Pokémon, rather than just a trolly strategy used by people to get ragequits. & guess what, Pokémon have weaknesses, that's what the other 5 slots in your team are for. It still has a ton of resists, so it's good defensively despite it's mediocre defensive stats.

 

[-Flygon-]

It's best set was always supporting with Screens & hazards anyway. The SwagPlay set only became annoying when paired with other teammates that did the same thing. Maybe now Klefki can actually be seen as a good supportive Pokémon, rather than just a trolly strategy used by people to get ragequits. & guess what, Pokémon have weaknesses, that's what the other 5 slots in your team are for. It still has a ton of resists, so it's good defensively despite it's mediocre defensive stats.

Thanks for clarifying, I admit to not having much experience with Klefki, so I'll take your word for it. It's always nice to have Pokemon with such an important niche in the tier, so I hope that Klefki can stick around, so I can get more experience with it. Sorry for my ignorance guys.

 

[jamashawalker]

No idea, but manual Rain teams is something I do want to bring up right now. I think this topic was brought up last page by someone (eaglehawk I think?) and it is pretty cool right now, and I'll explain why.

Rain Offense is the main thing, but you've got reliable setters in Uxie (bulky) Sableye/Volbeat/Liepard (Prankster), Tornadus (Prankster + Abuser), and Kingdra (Abuser) Add to that the myriad of threats you have to choose from for a rain team, and it isn't very hard to make a rain team right now. Common abusers include Kingdra, Tornadus, Raikou, Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Manectric, Cloyster, Kabutops, Omastar, Heliolisk, Moltres, Noivern, and Ludicolo just to name some. This is a fairly wide array of threats that you can choose from to make up your rain team. You've got 6 setters to choose from at worst (2 of which double as abusers) and at least 12 abusers to choose from (2 of which are also setters) Considering you should have 2-3 setters and 3-4 abusers, this gives you plenty of options, much more than in previous generations for the most part. Although manual weather teams have generally been very difficult teams to build in the past, they are perhaps as easy as ever to build right now in UU. Sure Rain (and sun) teams have to deal with Hippo and Snowman, but since auto-weather was nerfed to only last as long as weather moves themselves, this has become a much more manageable issue to overcome for manual weather teams.

I've been trying manual rain with great success and great failure. If I see one Hippo or Abomasnow in the team preview, I already know this is gonna be a tough game. The latter just fully stops rain teams in general as it can switch into a number of rain sweepers. The hardest part i've been finding out about rain is not the setting up part, its trying to get the abusers in safely. Uxie+Tornadus are the best because of U-turn. But anyways, rain teams are a great strategy to utilize in this metagame. Manual rain is great but i'm more curious how bad politoed would be if it joined the ranks.

On another note, why has no one mentioned Klefki+Prankster+Trickeroo!?! With all the annoying option klefki has at its disposal, you would think that would be another adittion to it.

 

[thecrowing2k8]

Going off on a slight tangent from the Klefki discussion/hype...

Has anyone tried Alomomola as a bulky water? With all the destructive fire-type attacks going through the tier such as Flare Blitz, V-Create, and Sacred Fire, this poke shrugs it off with ease. Having 165/80/45 defenses, it has amazing bulk on the physical side, making for a great dedicated physical wall. Unless you have a strong super effective hit, this thing won't go down easily.

I know you might be thinking, "but what about Vaporeon?" Well although Vaporeon's 130/60/95 defenses are better on the special side, Alomomola's physical bulk is still better with max investment. Also, Alomomola has a better HP stat for Wish support, and has Regenerator to recover HP upon switching out. IMO, this thing has a slight niche in UU being a little more durable than Vaporeon in taking physical hits.

I guess Alomomola makes a great partner for Klefki. She takes Fire/Ground attacks very well, and can provide excellent wish support to a pokemon who lacks reliable recovery. Imagine repeated light clay boosted dual screens REPEATEDLY throughout the match.

I've used this thing with AV Abomasnow (This I will rant about another time and it's great!) and they make an extremely bulky shell of a FWG core. Just use Entei to spread burns and call it an annoying day.

I believe the only set worth running is Wish, Protect, Toxic, Scald/Waterfall with Max HP/Max Def+. I've never been this excited for a post lol.

 

[EonX]

thecrowing2k8 , my problem with Alomomola is its lack of any special bulk at all. While being able to full-on counter most physical Fire-type Pokemon is really cool, lets not forget that Chandelure and special Victini exist. Chandelure is wrecking Momo with Shadow Ball rather reliably while it will struggle to get past Vaporeon without a sizable boost in power or the use of Energy Ball. Meanwhile, Victini can simply 2HKO Momo if it spams Psychic (which is a safe move on special and mixed Victini) while it will need to catch Vaporeon on the switch with Thunder/Thunderbolt/Energy Ball while still failing to get past Vappy should it run Grass Knot. Why is all of this possible? Because Vaporeon has a solid Special Defense stat while its Defense stat isn't absolute garbage like Momo's Special Defense.

The biggest differences imo come in Vaporeon's offensive presence and support outside of Wish. Vaporeon has a base 110 Special Attack, which is pretty high for a defensive Pokemon. Almomola? 75 / 40 offenses. This means you basically have to run Waterfall to avoid being setup bait for virtually anything that isn't weak to Water-type moves. Meanwhile, Vaporeon is able to provide burn support with Scald without giving up offensive presence.

Vappy vs. Momo Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 348-410 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Scarf never OHKOes
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-348 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Scarf fails to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vaporeon: 270-320 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Psychic fails to 2HKO. Psychic + Thunderbolt / Energy Ball fails to 2HKO bar SpDef drops.
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Alomomola: 478-564 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Psychic 2HKOes. Psychic + Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Grass Knot will 2HKO.

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vaporeon: 220-259 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Shaky, but Protect gives Vappy an above average chance of living. Energy Ball always 2HKOes. Scarf Shadow Ball can't even 3HKO after Protect turns. Scarf Energy Ball is a shaky 2HKO with Protect turns.
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Alomomola: 391-462 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Energy Ball OHKOes. Even Fire Blast will 2HKO as it does 50.2% minimum. Scarf still 2HKOes with Shadow Ball or Energy Ball

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 172-203 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. despite the difference in physical bulk, Vappy still avoides the 2HKO.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 144-172 (27 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Yeah, you're raising the middle finger on this one, haha.

TL;DR Momo certainly has much better physical bulk than Vaporeon, but it has some serious issues with the special Fire-types of the tier where Vaporeon can use its natural special bulk to handle much better than Momo can. This makes Vaporeon a better all-around answer to Fire-types as it still has the physical bulk necessary to tank hits in most situations while not having nearly as many issues as Momo does when it comes to taking special hits from Fire-types.

 

[Saria]

I don't like Alomomola (or Vaporeon, really), but most of your argument and damage calcs are pretty silly. Running 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Alomomola is fine if you are planning to take only physical hits with it, but if you are using it as your bulky water and you need it to take Special Fire mons, makes more sense running a more specialized EV spread, to be as bulky as Vaporeon while still having bigger Wishes. 176 HP / 80 Def / 252 SDef (with a +SDef nature) is going to take hits as good as 252 / 252 Bold Vaporeon, while having 51 more HP points.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 348-410 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Alomomola: 386-456 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 165-196 (35.5 - 42.2%) -- 87.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 176 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 183-216 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

More HP, access to Knock Off and Regenerator are things Alomomola has over Vaporeon. Regenerator is the main thing, because it allows Alomomola to pass Wish while healing itself in the process and helps it play around shit like CB Victini better (Alomomola can tank a CB Bolt Strike, switch out and then be "decently" healthy. Vaporeon just dies. Also, U-turn is not going to help Victini wear down Mola).

What (Defensive) Vaporeon has over Alomomola is offensive presence, Roar and Water Absorb. The former two are huge and are what usually makes it better than Mola.

tl;dr: If you want Alomomola to take physical attacks while doing nothing else, use the "standard" 252 / 252 Impish spread. If you want it to be actually useful and be able to check a much bigger amount of Pokemon, use a better spread.

 

[thecrowing2k8]

Wow thanks for the responses (and for indulging my excitement for this topic.) I don't post often so it is well appreciated. I will take your suggestions into consideration as I shall keep testing the limits in this ever changing meta.

Thank you EonX for the calcs that I'm not used to posting.

Very special thank you to Hikari for the suggested EV spread for Alomomola. I never thought investing in SpDef would be worthwhile, but maintaining more HP points while passing bigger Wishes is still a huge plus to me. I do like the idea of a full on physical wall, but the all around defenses give Alomomola more utility. I'm guessing I won't have to compensate so much for his lack of SpDef so I can run more bulky offense to complement one another. Also, I forgot about Knock Off which might be more useful than fishing for 30% Scald burns.

Why isn't there more Kyurem action going on? That poke can run Specially Defensive, Sub + Three Attacks, Sub-Toxic Stall, and a bunch of others.

 

[EonX]

Hikari , always thought there was a way to make Momo a bit more bulky on the special side without sacrificing the physical bulk (a ton) but considering I have always had a hard time using it, I never really tried to work with the EV spread. (I tend to like offensive presence from my walls, so...) May give that set a test run just for the heck of it at a later point.

thecrowing2k8 , Kyurem is probably going to be the "next best Dragon-type" everyone recognizes. (like Zygarde was after Mence, Hax, and Hydra were booted) It has great offensive presence and its bulk isn't anything to laugh at, especially for an offensive mon. The defensive typing kinda sucks and base 95 Speed isn't "incredible" but it certainly has a fair bit going for it. One of very few Dragon-types in the entire game to have a strong secondary STAB to actually do something worthwhile to Fairy-types. And if you really need to stick it to Fairy-types, you could go Iron Head on a mixed set.

 

[Rotosect]

I reckon Kyurem will eventually get more attention and raise again into UU range (right now it's the very first pokemon below the cut-off) after its inevitable ban from RU, pretty much like Kyu-B did in OU a couple of months ago.
Its best set in my opinion is the specially-based mixed attacker with Iron Head, which dismantles most defensive cores in the tier.
Oh and in the "next best thing" thread there's a specially defensive SubRoost set that actually beats Florges 1 on 1, which is pretty damn impressive for a dragon type.

 

[RowDog]

At the moment I've been seeing Flygon running around in UU as the sort of replacement Dragon. Its Scarf and Band sets can be pretty threatening and a support set with Defog is also viable, as it is one of the best Defoggers thanks to its typing and ability. Though I do think that sooner or later Kyurem will come back up to usage.

 

[Ununhexium]

Offensive sub roost kyurem is a badass. It can trash slower team if played right. Its b95 speed is good but not great but IMO its utility lies in its good bulk and spa while having decent speed. I use it a lot, but its real deal breaker is it STABs. Alone, they're epic but together, their coverage is pretty redundant. Also, ice typing brings it an SR weakness which sucks.

 

[kokoloko]

so run ice beam/earth power thats near perfect coverage

 

[Ununhexium]

so run ice beam/earth power thats near perfect coverage

I do but I was just saying I was disappointed by its STAB combination. Pretty much all special sets use Ice Beam and Earth Power iirc.

EDIT: but I think we can all agree that being weak to SR sucks.

 

[col49]

Is that a bad thing now ?_? I mean, I could understand that missing out on secondary STAB on alternate sets would would be a bad thing, but SubRoost doesn't really care in most cases. Bulky Water-types generally can't do much in return, struggling to break its Subs and in return setting itself up to either getting Pressure stalled or fold to the inevitable crit / SpDef drop, barring instances such as CM Slowbro / 'Cune (who you probably didn't have a good chance breaking w/out LO / Specs DM). The occasional significant resists, mostly Rotom-H and 'Zong, are both PP stalled really easily, and with the latter Dragon STAB isn't relevant either, so not sure what complains are to be had here tbh x_x Plus, SR weakness has always been only a moderate issue for me, since Roost+good natural bulk+relevant resistances offset it a lot. Honestly, the offhand TSpikes are my primary concern for SubRoost variants, since that passive damage really takes away from its ability to just outlast most things that don't have recovery+relevant boosting move, but maybe that's just me q-q