Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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I'd say a good start is to limit the number of pokemon that can use Baton Pass on one team to one or two. The main issue of Baton Pass chains is the momentum each member can gain from Baton Passes. Short Baton Pass chains aren't as harmful.
 
Lemme just collaborate the BP hard counters we have...
Unaware Haze Quagsire
Haze/Perish Song Murkrow
Pranksters (Thundurus, Sableye)
Mold Breaker Roar
...Imprision + Baton Pass Musharna?
 
Seevea said:
Lemme just collaborate the BP hard counters we have...
Unaware Haze Quagsire
Haze/Perish Song Murkrow
Pranksters (Thundurus, Sableye)
Mold Breaker Roar
...Imprision + Baton Pass Musharna?
Click to expand...

HO does fairly well against it, and in particular Landorus-I.
 
eaglehawk said:
I'd say a good start is to limit the number of pokemon that can use Baton Pass on one team to one or two. The main issue of Baton Pass chains is the momentum each member can gain from Baton Passes. Short Baton Pass chains aren't as harmful.
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I honestly think that this is one of the better options (other than the banning of certain pokemon combinations) because unlike normal set-up pokemon who can either be forced to lose their boosts when you bring in a proper counter or risk getting KO-ed, Baton Pass teams can safely switch out into something that isn't as threatened by your pokemon and resume setting up at no cost to their setting up. For example, let's say I switch in Bisharp as they are setting up CM on their Espeon. If this wasn't BP, then they would have to either attack and take the possible Sucker Punch/Attack, or switch out and lose the turns invested in setting up to avoid getting killed. With Baton Pass (after the Scolipede boosts, fairly easy to get to +4 speed), bringing in a counter is essentially useless because they can switch out into something that isn't at that large of a risk without losing their set-up, which ultimately defeats the purpose of bringing in a counter in the first place.

Also, Ingrain makes this pretty much indestructible since teams can pack Roar and Whirlwind (I've seen a ton of Heatran and Skarmory/Mandibuzz with them, they have their uses as walls that can work on balanced teams) but the only Haze-user that is used in OU is Quagsire, and he doesn't really have much of a role on teams in general (only really seen in stall). Kind of like how the only pokemon that could effectively deal with Swagplay was Numel, the only pokemon who can effectively kill BP (with ingrain) and have some use outside of that in OU is Quagsire, and he can get taken out by a Stored Power. The only time I see ingrain in OU is Smeargle in BP, kind of like the only time you saw Swagger was in Swagplay.

At this point I feel like making Baton-Pass counterable by regular teams (like it should be) is the best option that wouldn't completely kill any pokemon using baton pass. So I am behind limiting the number of Baton-Passers on a team to 1 or 2, since passing boosts to another as an extended set-up pass isn't really bad or unhealthy (because let's face it Kyurem-B has pretty bad setup options), while having an all-out-sure-fire-escape option for virtually any counter is kind of ridiculous. I wouldn't mind banning Ingrain and BP on the same team as well, since it turns the chain an extended set-up that can actually be dealt with like one.
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Full Baton Pass teams are a force to be reckoned with. Common baton pass teams focus on all stats, of course. Baton Pass teams can be hard to take down, especially those with Smeargle, who can use spore to get a free stat boost, and dual screeners can add extreme bulk to the baton passers. Ingrain + Substitute makes taking down a team even harder. Shell Smash is arguably the best boosting move in the game, and with all added bulk, can safely set this up behind a substitute. All Baton Passers can have Max defenses, which is also a problem. Then, when a sweeper is the recipient, you get 6-0'd. Baton Pass can break a game just by adding Bulk, then offenses.

TL;DR - Baton Pass can make one-sided matches.
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
The main question to ask is what pokemon is baton passing what stat boosts. The current most common baton passers are Scolipede and (not as much) Espeon. Scolipede of course baton passes Speed Boosts + Swords Dance, while Espeon baton passes Calm Mind. Of course, Smeargle with access to Spore + Quiver Dance can also Baton Pass scary boosts, and make force a switch. Dual Screens are hell, as they add to the overall Bulk of the baton passers, making it hard to take them down. Substitute is a main problem though, as when bulk is added and you baton pass a sub, it makes it hard to pass the sub. Aqua Ring and Ingrain are also problems.

TL;DR - Shell Smash, Bulk, and Substitute are big problems when Baton Passing.
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Yes, and no. Yes, because banning Scolipede and Espeon will subtract much from Baton Pass teams, and perhaps even much outclass the whole idea of a Baton Pass team. No, because there are other reasons to use Espeon and Scolipede, but of course if you are talking in the sense of banning them from using just baton pass, then I support that.

TL;DR - Certain Pokemon should be banned.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
That's a hard question. Baton Pass is of course slowly breaking the meta due to the fact that simply starting by adding bulk is a pain in the ass. However, Baton Pass is sort of a skill, or gimmick that seems to work for some teams and players, and banning the whole move can cause outrage (no pun intended) between players.

TL;DR - Ban only certain uses of Baton Pass
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Absolutely. Why? Because this can make Baton Passing more challenging, but much more even. Suggested cores IMO to be banned would be:

Smeargle + Any Pokemon (Smeargle can Spore and use any boosting move)

Espeon + Scolipede (Espeon is screens/CM, scolipede is offense and speed and sub)

Thanks for reading if you did :]
 
just saying the fact that haze quagsire (remember that the entire fucking point of having unaware is to ignore boosts so calling haze "redundant" is an understatement since it has literally zero use outside of stopping bp teams unless you want to pp stall haxorus dragon dance or some shit) is even getting mention as a counter just proves how ridiculous bp is!!!
 
I've used haze quagsire on stall and you can still lose to bp teams lol

It gets ohkoed by stored power after a not even significant amount of boosts, and if you stay in on the chain to prevent it from starting then you get taunted and set up on.

Stall just has no answers to bpass and something needs to be done
 
The fact this is even being questioned is appalling. If you have absolutely no way to deal with BP teams (Multi-Hit moves, Haze, Dark Type (For Stored Power), Phazing attack move, or even just Taunt), then your team is clearly a unprepared team. Just because BP teams aren't used as often, and when they do show up, you have no way to deal with them shouldn't be a need for ban. There's clear flaws in the BP strategy including the moves listed above, and the defeat of the team we even a single Pokemon is K.O'd (if battler exploits the loss of said Pokemon).
These bans aren't achieving balance at all, lmao
 
You're supposed to pair Haze Quagsire with a strong attacker, like Aegislash. You attack with Aegislash and switch off to Quagsire when they start boosting. And, if played correctly, it consistently beats BP teams. It can also help deal with Suicune, I've beaten it after the course of 500+ turns.

I feel that there should be a limit to the number of Baton Pass users one can have on a team, that's a decent way of handling BP without completely removing it.
 
AceStarThe3rd said:
If you have absolutely no way to deal with BP teams (Multi-Hit moves, Haze, Dark Type (For Stored Power), Phazing attack move, or even just Taunt), then your team is clearly a unprepared team. Just because BP teams aren't used as often, and when they do show up, you have no way to deal with them shouldn't be a need for ban. There's clear flaws in the BP strategy including the moves listed above, and the defeat of the team we even a single Pokemon is K.O'd (if battler exploits the loss of said Pokemon).
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These are not very good "answers" to baton pass teams at all. Almost all BP teams have fairies, which resist and hit the Dark-types super-effective. They also have Magic Mirror to bounce back Whirlwind and Taunt and possibly gain free turns, or Ingrain to completely full-stop phasers. Haze is the only thing of the above close to an answer, and your Quagsire had better come in not too late, before Stored Power reaches what-like 200 BP (which takes like five turns lol).
 
The problem with baton pass teams is that it takes the effort of the whole team to be effective, making any potential bans impractical. The only way to have a chance of beating baton pass teams is by using certain things that will probably leave you destroyed by regular teams like curse, and haze (There are others that I can't think of right now.) and even then it would be a struggle to beat them this way because your opponent will most likely always have another chance to set up.

Using set up pokemon is also challenging because of scolipede being able to sub/protect/speed boost/acid armor and then switch out into something like vaporeon to roar you out. I was thinking of a mold breaker pokemon that can set up hazards and or roar, but I haven't found any that can do that and even then people use ingrain.

The best way I can think of that can beat baton pass teams is to use heart swap manaphy, but you have to use it at the right time or else you'll die to a boosted attack from espeon or sylveon and a heart swap manaphy isn't that great except for baton pass teams.
 
Haze on a bulky mon? Looking through the list Altaria (been meaning to try this out for cloud nine reasons), Blastoise, Cofragrigus, Dragonite, Weezing, Dusknoir, Vaporeon, Politoed (also gets perish song, can set up a teammate's whirlwind on the turn mr mime wants to come out), Qwilfish, Muk, Dragalgae, Tentacruel and Quagsire all get access to the move and have some reasonable bulk. I run haze on cofragrigus as his immunities, mummy shenanigans for mega detterents, and bulk mean he's not on my team in vain. I also find the assertion that having to run some kind of phazing or hazing measure on your team is asinine. Its been a consideration since gen 2 going onward, in the same vein as needing to run hazard control and either a cleric or status absorber. In general, I have some phazing/hazing option in place (maybe even a ditto if I can figure out how to break the sub at the right time with a seismic toss or night shade).

About the only unbreakable baton pass chain I came across was one with multiple taunters (I think it was agility gliscor and a ... mew?) Fast taunts and phazing immunity meant I couldn't deny the win condition at any point.
 
AceStarThe3rd said:
The fact this is even being questioned is appalling. If you have absolutely no way to deal with BP teams (Multi-Hit moves, Haze, Dark Type (For Stored Power), Phazing attack move, or even just Taunt), then your team is clearly a unprepared team. Just because BP teams aren't used as often, and when they do show up, you have no way to deal with them shouldn't be a need for ban. There's clear flaws in the BP strategy including the moves listed above, and the defeat of the team we even a single Pokemon is K.O'd (if battler exploits the loss of said Pokemon).
These bans aren't achieving balance at all, lmao
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I'm straight up disagreeing with this. What are the "clear flaws" in BP again? Stored Power not hitting dark types? Haze Quagsire? Taunt?(Espeon says hi) And when a single Pokemon is K.O'd on BP team, you've probably lost half of your guys, or the opponent is no good. Have fun exploiting a weakness with 3 Pokemon left. And most top teams are prepared for BP, but they can still lose even if their team is both well constructed and they are skilled battlers. BP can work through all of its counters with some skill, not mentioning that BP teams carry all of the momentum in battles. My most important point is that, if you break the chain once, a skilled user can simply start the chain over again. And in most cases you will get one chance to stop the chain even with a hard counter(lol Quagsire.) In most battles, you need to break the chain multiple times to win.
 
probationsmack said:
Has anyone who is questioning the strategy ever considered just running haze on a bulky mon? Looking through the list Altaria (been meaning to try this out for cloud nine reasons), Blastoise, Cofragrigus, Dragonite, Weezing, Dusknoir, Vaporeon, Politoed (also gets perish song, can set up a teammate's whirlwind on the turn mr mime wants to come out), Qwilfish, Muk, Dragalgae, Tentacruel and Quagsire all get access to the move and have some reasonable bulk. I run haze on cofragrigus as his immunities, mummy shenanigans for mega detterents, and bulk mean he's not on my team in vain. I also find the assertion that having to run some kind of phazing or hazing measure on your team is asinine. Its been a consideration since gen 2 going onward, in the same vain as needing to run hazard control and either a cleric or status absorber. In general, I have some phazing/hazing option in place (maybe even a ditto if I can figure out how to break the sub at the right time with a seismic toss or night shade).

About the only unbreakable baton pass chain I came across was one with multiple taunters (I think it was agility gliscor and a ... mew?) Fast taunts and phazing immunity meant I couldn't deny the win condition at any point.
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Come on do you realize that BP always runs Espeon to bounce back taunts? And Hyper Offense can't afford to run a phasing move. Good luck beating dEnIsSsS with a haze Altaria.
 
probationsmack said:
Oooh, I just remembered infiltrator is a thing, does switcheroo (noivern) and trick (chandelure) work through subs in these instances?
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It works, but at the same time, I don't believe that you should waste a spot on your team to deal with BP teams, each Pokemon is crucial on a team, but wasting a spot to deal with something in particular is like.. like uh.. I dunno.
 
Hjwang said:
Come on do you realize that BP always runs Espeon to bounce back taunts? And Hyper Offense can't afford to run a phasing move. Good luck beating dEnIsSsS with a haze Altaria.
Click to expand...

Why does hyper offense get to not run a phazing move anywhere in its 24 available slots? Who gave it that privelege? Where did I mention taunt other than saying its a benefit to baton pass teams to possess (specifically gliscor and mew)?
 
BurningFury101 said:
It works, but at the same time, I don't believe that you should waste a spot on your team to deal with BP teams, each Pokemon is crucial on a team, but wasting a spot to deal with something in particular is like.. like uh.. I dunno.
Click to expand...
Just conjecturing, noivern isn't a bad mon in OU, and infiltrator is a good ability that can be clutch at getting behind subs before the special defense boosts occur.
 
I'd like to more thoroughly explain why "just limit the number of baton passers per team," thus completely eliminate BP chains as a strategy, is a bad idea.

I think it's agreed that there's not any ban of a single move or pokemon that would solve the "problem" without some collateral damage. Ban Scolipede, you lose a fun to use, poor-man's version of Blaziken. Ban Espeon, and no team can use it for its ability in Magic Bounce or as a screener. Ban Baton Pass, and stuff can't use it to avoid pursuit trap or gain momentum.

No, it'd have to be a complex ban, and between a complex ban that nerfs it to the point where it can reliably counter-played without shit like Haze Quagsire, or eliminating it altogether as a strategy, there's no reason not to go with the first option -- other than "I don't like Baton Pass teams, thus I want to get rid of them altogether," and I really think that's a bad idea. It'd set a precedent for "if I don't like some particular strategy, it's okay to just ban it."

Gonna make the comparison to DrizzleSwim ban again. The aim was to nerf offensive rain teams: there was an option of a non-complex ban of Drizzle/Politoed that would have had collateral damage; this would be like banning Baton Pass, Scolipede or Espeon. A complex ban of Drizzle+"any pokemon with Hydro Pump, Waterfall, Surf or Scald", which would have eliminated offensive rain teams as a whole, could have been a possibility (I don't think anyone in gen 5 suggested it, but it would have also "solved" the problem.)

But then there was the complex ban of Drizzle+Swift Swim that allowed offensive rain teams to exist as a powerful team archetype, but for which counterplay existed because their sweepers weren't fast as tits.

A complex ban that aims to nerf Baton Pass teams, to the point where you can at least hope to counterplay and beat them with a well-made team that doesn't specifically plan for a BP team, should be the preferred option, if a complex ban is to be made. Bans shouldn't be made because people don't like something, they should only be made when there's something so powerful that it centralizes the meta (Mega Kangaskhan) or something that allows a lesser player to beat a better player (Swagplay, Evasion, arguably BP teams as they exist now.)
 
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