Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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haunter

Banned deucer.
Preliminary notes: this is by no means a suspect thread, nor it is guaranteed that the move Baton Pass will ever be brought up for a formal suspect test.

Baton Pass and, in particular, full Baton Pass chains have always been a controversial topic on Smogon, especially at high levels of play. Top ladderers and tournament players tend to stigmatize the use of full Baton Pass chains as a cheap strategy, that requires next to no skill to be effective. The introduction in Gen V of Magic Bounce Espeon has made Baton Pass an even deadlier strategy, as moves such as Taunt and Whirlwind/Roar are no longer able to reliably stop the statistics boost chain. Moreover, Gen VI introduced Speed Boost Scolipede, that gives Baton Pass chains new toys to work with.

It is said that Baton Pass chains exacerbate the match-up component of the game, to the point where you either have a full counter to the strategy (i.e. a Pokémon like Sableye) or you're doomed to lose to it, unless a lucky crit occurs when the opponent isn't behind a Substitute. While the last point applies to many other Pokémon/strategies, it's an undeniable fact that preparing for full Baton Pass teams severely limits team building, given the very few full-counters to this strategy. It's no surprise that many teams at the top of the ladder are full Baton Pass teams.

With the above points in mind, the OU Tiering Council believes that, in the process of achieving a desirable metagame, the time has come to look deeper into Baton Pass, letting the community voice its opinion on the topic and evaluating possible ways to nerf the effectiveness of this strategy.

So, in this thread, notwithstanding the general rules of this forum, we expect you to address mainly the following points:
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Closing notes: I decided to post this thread in the general OU forum and not in Victory Road to give everyone the possibility to voice their opinion but, before posting it this thread, keep in mind that:
  1. We're going to enforce a zero-tolerance policy for any form of trolling/flaming. Users who will attempt to troll this thread will be immediately banned without any prior warning (this applies specifically to newly registered accounts);
  2. If you have no knowledge (or next to no knowledge) of the game at high level of play (be it the top of the ladder of official tournaments) then you're not supposed to post in this thread. I don't want to see one-liners or uninformed posts;
  3. You're required to make civil posts and accept criticism from those who disagree with you;
  4. You're absolutely not allowed to discuss or question the tiering process and its current implementation.
Discuss.
 
Honestly, if we just make baton pass on espeon illegal, its easy to deal with the style.
Just taunt or whirlwind.
Espeon is holding the entire team together, so if we just nerf espeon, we're done.
EDIT: apparently xatu gets baton pass too, so just make baton pass+magic bounce illegal
EDIT 2: Nvm baton pass+magic bounce is illegal b/c xatu gets it in gen 3
 
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Srn9130 said:
Honestly, if we just make baton pass on espeon illegal, its easy to deal with the style.
Just taunt or whirlwind.
Espeon is holding the entire team together, so if we just nerf espeon, we're done
Click to expand...
Mega Absol can also work in its place, so that would have to be taken in to consideration. Luckily, Xatu only gets BP from a Gen 3 event =]
EDIT, to answer OP's questions directly:
Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
No, though it is the first sign you're developing cancer. The meta will continue to develop, but at the same time, the influence of BP can be seen high in the ladder.
If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

It's totally matchup based whether you win or not. Got Haze Gengar? You win. Got Mega Pinsir? You win. Have 6 things that don't have odd moves, and aren't particularly effective vs. BP? You lose.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
The Pokemon themselves are far from broken; Espeon in particular gets laughed at all the time because of how bad it is outside of BP. On the other hand, banning Magic Bounce on Espeon or Speed Boost on Scolipede would make them neat toys for lower tiers, while also nerfing BP.

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Nope, as hilarious as it would be to see the backlash of a full ban, BP has a few uses outside of full BP, like quickpass or using to retain momentum.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
It's pretty much what Srn said, ban Espeon + BP and Mega Absol + BP. You could also ban Scolipede + Speed Boost, but eh.

Is dEnIsSsS cancer?
Yes. Yes he is.
 
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BKC said:
even if you get rid of magic bouncers on bp teams, they wouldnt be as common but they would still be absurd against offensive teams that dont have room for a phazer. you shouldnt have to run roar/whirlwind on every team or risk an auto-loss every time you face bp.
Click to expand...

But you can still run taunt on HO, I think there's room for that.
 
While I don't support a ban on Espeon as I don't use it on my baton pass team (Instead I use it for dual screens) however the way smogon is going everything is a cheap strategy. I think baton pass + magic bounce is a good solution to the problem faced here.
 
Srn9130 said:
But you can still run taunt on HO, I think there's room for that.
Click to expand...
taunt hardly stops bp. mental herb, taunts of their own, attacking moves... i guess theres prankster taunt on thundurus (and lol sableye) but if you dont run it on thund your offensive team is probably getting steamrolled and you shouldnt have to run taunt (even though its a good option, usually others are better) just so you dont auto lose against some (BAN ME PLEASE) who decided to troll with a bp team.
 
Lol, Haunter your signature kinda gives it away where you stand.

Anyways, one of the questions you ask is whether Baton Pass should be banned. I definitely think this is going to far, as there's nothing broken about quick baton passing. A good example of a team that uses baton pass in a strategic and creative way can be found in this rmt (Baton Pass to Victory, Peaked 2 on ladder) : http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-passport-to-victory-peaked-2.3482311/

I don't like complex bans, but there are no obvious single bans, as nothing on a full BP team is broken by itself.
 
If we ban baton pass+magic bounce, the problem is solved imo. Of course, the way it is now, all you have to do to beat BP is just set up alongside it. ofc that isnt the only way to beat it, thats just the way ive been doing it
 
OK im gonna give my two cents to this. This topic has come up alot in the OU room on Showdown before and after thorough discussion I have concluded that the biggest buffs to baton pass are Scolipede and Sylveon. Scolipedes speed boost is almost essential to a working baton pass team while iron defense is yet another wonderous move for Baton Pass to abuse and Sylveon is quite possibly the biggest buff to it this gen. Its ability to remove the dark types that trouble Baton pass instantly is invaluable and without the fairy stab baton pass struggles greatly as a playstyle. So the way I see it is you have to nerf one of these two rather than ban the move baton pass. Banning baton pass as a move not only serves to outright destroy the playstyle but also nerfs any psychic type in the tier with access to it as baton pass prevents the pursuit trap. If going about this nerf the solution in my opinion is to ban Baton pass on Sylveon or Scolipede specifically.
 
Okay the really strange thing about Baton Pass nowadays is every single piece is necessary for Baton Pass to function (excluding Zapdos) without Scolipede Baton Pass cannot pick up speed and defense boosts at the same time which is incredibly important. Without Smeargle/Mr. Mime Baton Pass cannot prevent phasing without risking Espeon: a fairly squishy pokemon. Without Sylveon Baton Pass cannot even hope to get Calm Mind boosts in the face of strong special attackers such as Thundurus or Mega-Gardevior. Without Vaporeon Baton Pass cannot boost their defense in the face of strong physical attackers. Espeon of course has magic bounce to prevent taunt and phasing. A removal of any of these pokemon from being Baton Pass viable would be enough to make Baton Pass easy to deal with.

I'm kinda mixed on how far baton pass should be nerfed based on my experiences playing against it. There have been times where facing a Baton Pass team without a phaser is interesting and at times fun, though it was not the current generic structure of Espeon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, Zapdos, Scolipede and Smeargle which was just so annoying to face on the suspects ladder. Baton Pass is a fun and interesting strategy that like Trick Room changes up the formula is at times enjoyable to play against even at times more than against a normal team as strategy completely changes. The idea of how do I prevent my opponent from racking up too many boosts through intelligent switches that put pressure in the right areas for each member was a fun change of pace.

I don't think banning Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is the best option as it destroys any viability for Baton Pass. I think Baton Pass will be severly nerfed if we take away even the smallest one of these options so we should take away the piece that makes it just unviable enough not to be complete BS like it was on the suspect ladder, but viable enough that its still usable on the ladder like Trick Room. I think we should ban a combination of BP Espeon and BP Scolipede though it is a very complex ban it makes it so baton pass teams have to choose between the best option to pick up speed (ninjask is trash) or the best counter to anti baton pass tactics, while this does not entirely nerf baton pass as a playstyle.
 
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Alright, so I have an opinion (Sue me now).

Baton pass is uncompetitive in a different way from swagger, but it is uncompetitive. I remember someone in VR stating that they played a swagger team and after putting it down realized they knew nothing of the meta. The same can be said here: You DON'T need any meta knowledge to succeed with these teams. Honestly, this should be the judge for something to be uncompetitive.

Baton pass players are playing as much an algorithm as swagplay users were. Go scolipede. Taunt? Go Espeon. If no, outspeed? yes, use Substitute. No, use protect. They hazard set? Use iron defense. No, protect. It continues along a very predictable path, and even if the other player KNOWS this pattern, they can't interrupt it without a designated counter or a crit. First, we don't rely on hax to beat styles. That's garbage in and of itself. Second, your counters are a prankster taunt or a sturdy card user, or maybe focus sash heart swap manaphy (or some psycho shift). Ditto doesn't even work because they'll probably be behind subs.

So to the first point: Is it a problem? Absolutely is.

What makes baton pass over powered?
Inherent things that have been with us for generations:
  • They have switch initiative! This is perhaps the most infuriating part for a stall player as how can I predict when I'm switching before them? The only way to take care advantage of this is the fact that they have speed and run volt turn, praying for a crit.
  • Espeon... Jesus, how infuriating that it bounces roar, taunt and everything else.
  • Ingrain. Roar/WW can't take out after that.
  • A soundproof user... Even if you REALLY use Perish song, which really isn't viable, you're screwed.
This generation:
  • Scolilpede has revolutionized Baton pass, being a speed booster with only 25% taken from rocks and boosting a far more relevant stat in defense over Ninjask's SD. Now, you may not even break his sub.
  • Sylveon... Dragon tail is now invalid if they are outside of a sub, and it destroys mold breaker gyarados-mega if it goes for taunt/roar. Faries in general wreck that.
Really, if you can cut ingrain, Magic bounce or something blocking roar/ww/taunt, it might be more manageable. Switch initiative is still awful as fuck and allows the most idiotic players to keep up but what can you do...

Banning individual pokemon? Espeon isn't good outside BP. No, this is a complex ban needed. The problem isn't the specific, it's the whole. Espeon is the most major root, but Smeragle can also pull ingrain on everyone and magic coat if needed...

Blanket ban the move? No. It has other viability. Espeon by itself used to run BP to avoid pursuit trap TTar. Scol can still just speed pass to a teammate for a sweep. It has viable strategies when not taken to an extreme that DO rely on skill/understanding the meta. When you aren't blanket +6, you need to understand your opponent and their pokemon to pull off a baton pass.

Absolutely complex ban this garbage. Not allowed to have 5+ pokemon carrying baton pass, or Sco+Espeon w/baton pass... No Magic Bounce+BP (But this shoots people stupid enough to use espeon Dual screen + BP to avoid Pursuit traps... I don't know people would claim legit strategies exist to use espeon outside of BP at all...).

Something needs to be done.
 
If people hate Baton Pass teams but don't want Baton Pass to be banned outright (fair enough, nothing wrong with quick passing or even dry passing), then couldn't Baton Pass just be banned on more than one Pokemon on a team or something? I don't think I've ever come across a team with two Baton Pass users that wasn't a full Baton Pass team.
 
This is my personal opinion but I believe the reason why we didn't nerf baton passing (BP from now on) in the BW metagame is because we had so many things we wanted to ban and bicker about and many players were shamed to use this tactic/playstyle on the ladder and in tournaments, but as we can clearly see in Gen 6 that shame flew right out of the window with Swagplay.

Baton pass teams got two new toys this gen, Scolipede and Sylveon, the first can get 3 stat boosts/increases in one turn with better movepool and stats (a MEVO Ninjask if you will) and the second is immune to Dragon, resists/butchers Dark and can be used as a secondary Baton Pass receiver if the situation calls for it.

We often speak that no team is perfect and every team has it's flaw, but it is damned hard to fault Baton Pass teams, they contain pretty much everything they need within a 6 member team to handle situation to the point you will be relying on either including a Phazer in some very awkward situations (HO teams lulz) or critics (yay luck). If I called baton passing as perfect a pokemon team can get I wouldn't be lying.

Unlike Swagger however where one could have argued that it say little to no use outside of swagplay, Baton Pass remains a valuable move on some pokemon and lesser tactics such as passing speed and attack boosts to other pokemon without going full BP style, so I'm against a blanket ban here.

I'd suggest if possible to make this complex ban I would say ban Baton Pass and Espeon and Scolipede from being on the same team. For example if the team uses Baton Pass then it cannot have either Espeon or Scolipede on the same team.
 
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1. Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

No, not really. Top players have generally rejected this strategy, and the sentiment for losing to a Baton Pass team is a mixture of "noob rage" and indifference. The meta will develop separately, but like SwagPlay will cause some issues (though not to that extent imo).

2. If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

I find Scolipede to be the biggest issue. It has never been easier to get a baton pass chain started than with Scolipede. Unlike Ninjask, Scolipede can be an immediate threat and has decent defenses.

Would banning Espeon and Scolipede make BP managable? Probably. Is it the right move? I don't think so. While Espeon is undoubtedly worse than last gen, Magic Bounce can still be very important to team building (also pretty lazy) for those who can't fit Spin/Defog support or as a failsafe. As far as Scolipede is concerned:

3. Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

I'd say no because there is nothing broken about Baton Passing a speed boost to something like Kyu-B. Scary? Yes. But not broken.


I'd raise this question to the community:

I know speed boosts and offensive boosts are scary, but how do you guys feel about defensive boosts and baton pass?

To me, when I see Espeon come in after a BP chain what pisses me off most is that I can't just bring in Talonflame/M-Pinsir/Bisharp and murder it because it has 2 iron defense + 1 acid armor boost.
 
I expect this thread to blow up with shit soon, so before it does, here is my opinion on how to nerf them:
Do nothing.
They're hard to deal with, but not impossible, and if you're relying on Espeon to sweep then just pack a Bisharp, and priority shits all over it too, Mega Scizor is especially great. I've not found what changed this generation besides Scolipede, which we had with Ninjask last gen, and yes it has better stats and typing, but they perform exactly the same. Maybe I've just not played enough BP teams, but they're just not broken to the point of being banned in my opinion.
 
While I don't think Espeon is broken by itself, the support it brings to a full BP team can definitely be viewed as broken. Because Espeon doesn't have a whole lot of use outside of BP teams (and Xatu can provide similar magic bounce support without baton pass), why not just ban Espeon as a whole? Yes ingrain Smeargle still exists, but its not that hard to prevent smeargle from ingraining, and the chain can be taunted or phazed before the boosts even stack up. There is some residual damage in an Espeon ban (tbh dual screens Espeon sucks), but its the most simple solution and allows baton pass to still be used in a strategic way.
 
As a newer competitive player who started this generation, I’ve dealt with several baton pass teams while attempting to climb the ladder. I’m mainly an user of offensive teams, and thus struggle with these teams. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever overcome a full Baton Pass team. Seeing an user who uses a Baton Pass team having a rather high rating(around 1600+) makes me cringe. I personally believe that Baton Pass is a problem to the development of the metagame.

Gen 5 and Gen 6 have given Baton Pass teams new tools to play with. Gen 5 gave Espeon the semi-exclusive ability Magic Bounce, which bounces back nearly any attempt to phaze, haze or taunt a Baton Pass team. The only exception to this is Circle Throw and Dragon Tail, both of which don’t work on targets behind substitutes. Gen 5 also brought Stored Power, which gives Baton Pass teams an extremely powerful move after some boosts. Stored Power is mainly used by Espeon in Baton Pass teams. Gen 6 gave Scolipede a new lease at life in OU by changing it’s Hidden Ability to Speed Boost, and with its access to Baton Pass, its debatably better than Ninjask due to better typing and better bulk(Ninjask’s 61/45/50 vs Scolipede’s 60/89/69). Scolipede can also set up Iron Defense for Baton Pass teams, essentially giving it a way to easily boost its physical stats and speed. Gen 6 also introduced a new Magic Bouncer in Mega Absol, who has fantastic 150/115/115 offenses to utilize on Baton Pass teams.

There aren’t many solutions that won’t create some controversy over Baton Pass(people are still wondering why Swagger was banned). I wouldn’t go for a blanket ban, because Baton Pass has uses other than passing boosts. Pivots can use this to get a switch advantage, albeit most pokemon that can be used as a pivot have access to either Volt Switch or U-turn. Baton Pass also gives a way for some pokemon to escape Pursuit and other trapping moves, but, again, pokemon that require a way to escape trapping moves usually have U-turn or Pursuit. However, many pokemon can use Baton Pass to give teammates a safe switch-in, because there are several Baton Pass users that have a rather low speed. Examples of pokemon that can do this are some Eeveelutions, including Sylveon and Umbreon, albeit it takes up a moveslot on both. Complex bans wouldn’t be the hottest thing, but for some situations I believe it could work, including Baton Pass. Banning the use of Baton Pass in conjunction with Magic Bounce may be one of the best solutions should it be necessary to nerf Baton Pass.

The main thing about Baton Pass is similar to SwagPlay, in that it really doesn't require much skill when using pokemon like Espeon in the team. The solution I suggested in the last paragraph may nerf Baton Pass teams to the point where the user would really need to be creative and strategic when attempting to use a Baton Pass team. With the Magic Bounce + Baton Pass combination, players really only need to know when to BP at the right time.

Long story short, I don't support a full-on ban to Baton Pass, but I do support an effort to nerf it.
 
I dislike baton pass a lot, particularly in this gen due to the better pokemon now available for such teams. The main problem with baton pass is the loss of control when I face it. Team matchup against baton pass is beyond my control if I don't have/can't fit one of the small number of sure answers to it on my team, and unless I can do something game changing (setting up successfully or taking out a key member) in the first few turns against baton pass I am basically helpless barring a crit. There is no other style where I feel like I don't have at least a small chance of winning without hax after 5 turns or so. This loss of control is basically not fun/competitive since it gives a large advantage to the baton pass user against the average player on the ladder. Not to mention the lack of skill required to use baton pass, as long as you don't mess up the first few turns with a neutral match up you basically win.

Possible ways to deal with it would probably centre around Magic Bounce since it makes a whole slew of ways to stop baton pass unviable. Banning baton pass and Magic Bounce on the same team would reduce its effectiveness enough I think for most teams to be able to deal with it.
 
I am not at the top of the ladder, but from my perspective the only reliable way to beat Baton Pass—thanks to Magic Bounce and Soundproof—is to set up right alongside them and keep the pressure on them as they try to get their boosts. I think this is bad for the metagame because it restricts who can beat Baton Pass to what your playstyle is. Boosting hyper-offense shouldn't have a problem with Baton Pass, but stall teams are pretty much useless against it. For this reason, I think a ban of Magic Bounce/Soundproof + Baton Pass would make sense so that multiple playstyles can be used fairly. Stall or more defensive teams would still be competitive thanks to Taunt/Roar/Whirlwind.
 
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Since good baton pass players rely on good predictions to play and not luck like with swagger, why isn't this just another team style you have to prepare for?

You've already got to prepare for HO, balanced, defensive, weather, stall etc when teambuilding. Why should preparing to beat BP teams be any different? Metas change between generations after all
 
Offensive teams can still deal with baton pass though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-105180260
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-105186966

Not my replays. You can make the argument that his team is tailored to deal with baton pass but that isn't exactly the case. At a glance, it's a team that simply works well on its own. Mental herb deoxys-D makes sense. Skill swap can be seen as one merely adapting to the metagame. This guy isn't alone either. People like alexwolf have found valid ways to play around BP as well.

Baton pass has always been kind of like this though. The teams have always been really easy or thoughtless to use. You either completely win or get utterly annihilated. The more people who adapt, the less you'll see baton pass. The same thing happened when people wanted to ban it in Gen 5. People just stopped running it because everyone started running CBtar or something that they simply couldn't deal with. I don't really agree with the algorithm analogy either. Bad players using BP teams can still lose games and a small level of prediction is required if your opponent actually has something that will disturb your chain.
 
finncent1 said:
My thoughts, at the moment:
(Note: My responses are geared towards a standard team, not one devoted to countering Baton Pass)

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?: Not really. It's similar to SwagPlay, in that it's a strategy that you'll see once in a while, not one that rules the metagame. However, Baton Pass is a strategy that is, in my opinion, more luck based. Again, for a standard team, Crits are the only way to really stop it.

What elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?: The reliance on situational moves, lucky critical hits, and the seemingly unstoppable synergy between Espeon, Scolipede, Mr. Mime, and Sylveon.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?: Would it make it manageable. Absolutely. But should it be done? Probably not. Scolipede is a viable pokemon in its own right, and can use Baton Pass on a non-BP dedicated team. Banning it is a problem. However, Espeon is pretty much unviable on non-BP teams, so not banning it but nerfing Baton Pass would, in my opinion, be like "legalizing" Blaze Blaziken. However, Baton Pass is not as broken as speed boost Blaziken, and Espeon arguably has a niche outside of BP. I don't think banning it is the best thing to do, but I'm not as adamant for keeping Espeon.

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?: No. A team with one BPer is not broken, at all, and is in fact a viable and good strategy.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.: Yes. I know Smogon doesn't like 'em, but I don't have a problem with them. However, thinking of one can be difficult. Ban Espeon + Baton Pass? There's Xatu. Scolipede + Baton Pass? There's Ninjask. Yes, the alternatives are worse, but the strategy would still require luck to be beaten.

What to do: I really don't know. Can anyone argue a purpose for Espeon or Mr. Mime without Baton Pass? I'd rather ban Baton Pass on them in particular, instead of banning them completely, but that may be too complex. Baton Pass should not be banned, but I do think nerfing it would be healthy for the metagame.

When played right, a.k.a Espeon not hard switching into Bisharp, Sharp relies on luck to win:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +6 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 172-203 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 467-550 (167.3 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Plus, Espeon can Baton Pass to Zapdos or Sylveon to kill Bisharp.
Click to expand...

Ok, but how does Espeon have the room? Baton Pass / Sub / CM / Stored Power is what it needs and how is it getting that? And if you predict the switch too Sylveon
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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