Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Red Cat]

Few people if any support a complete ban of the move Baton Pass by itself, I know I do not. The solution to me is limiting a team to a finite number of Baton Pass users per team, 2 or 3 seem to be the most reasonable number.

If the community does want to nerf Baton Pass, I would be in favor of the Stored Power + Baton Pass ban. Chain passing to a sweeper besides Espeon or Syvleon is a legitimate strategy, but it is obviously less effective than defensive BP leading to Stored Power sweeps.

Edit: I need to stop posting on this thread, it seems like the same people are just talking to each other on this thread. Good night.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

There are so many viable ways to beat BP chains in the current metagame. Teams that auto-lose to it have simply failed to account for it properly. Some will insist that stall auto-loses to Bisharp plus Landorus, yet to call for either to be banned solely by this claim is ridiculous; stall simply needs to adapt to this combination. The same goes for whatever few lazily-built teams that happen to lose to BP nowadays.

 

[Blizzardhail]

^^Agreed.Please don't nerf it or complex ban or ban. Its a play-style that is playable and it is not overpowered. Somehow everyone forgot that haze is a complete stop to any Baton Pass team. Yes it is quite centralizing. But it can be stopped

Edit:My stance is that full baton pass teams are an interesting play-style. If you nerf it, that's one less type of team and less diversity. Soon all the teams would either be type A. type B or type C. Pokemon was meant to be diverse. That's why we have all these Pokemon with different stats.

 

[Chester]

Just a question to leave you guys thinking:

How viable Snatch could be in OU? I mean, the pink blobs run it in Ubers quite a lot because it is a metagame somewhat centralized in favor of boosting. Why not using it in OU? It's a noteworthy check against BP chains because it's not that hard to find that moveslot.

Also: gimmicky answer: Heart Swap. It can't be blocked by Sub, neither by Magic Bounce. However, Manaphy/Smeargle (the latter of which can, ironically, BP out with those boosts) needs to survive a hit from Stored Power (clearly possible with Focus Sash). I know, gimmicky, but works 100% of the time

EDIT: Clear Smog Infiltrator Chandelure also is a great check. Only immune mons are Steel types, and neither Scizor or M-Mawile can risk taking a Flamethrower if they predict wrong

 

[vayu]

i believe that a complex ban where no more than 3 pokemon can have baton pass in one team is a good solution

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Yes, matches that are practically 100%　decided at the team previews are not healthy

If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Scolipead, is the main part, sylveon tanking NP attacks and destroying stored power immune dark types is a huge buff.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
That would affect too many non-broken teams

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
no, it is a legitmate move otherwise outside full team chains.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of cours
Yes, max 3 pokemon with BP in one team

^^Agreed.Please don't nerf it or complex ban or ban. Its a play-style that is playable and it is not overpowered. Somehow everyone forgot that haze is a complete stop to any Baton Pass team. Yes it is quite centralizing. But it can be stopped

Edit:My stance is that full baton pass teams are an interesting play-style. If you nerf it, that's one less type of team and less diversity. Soon all the teams would either be type A. type B or type C. Pokemon was meant to be diverse. That's why we have all these Pokemon with different stats.

Baton pass teams are the opposite of diversity, games are won/lost at the team previews, completely depending whether not the player has a X pokemon with a specific move. Baring any mistimed crit, you already know the victor before the game starts as long as the baton passer is competent.

There are so many viable ways to beat BP chains in the current metagame. Teams that auto-lose to it have simply failed to account for it properly. Some will insist that stall auto-loses to Bisharp plus Landorus, yet to call for either to be banned solely by this claim is ridiculous; stall simply needs to adapt to this combination. The same goes for whatever few lazily-built teams that happen to lose to BP nowadays.

There are so many viable ways to beat BP chains in the current metagame. Teams that auto-lose to it have simply failed to account for it properly. Some will insist that stall auto-loses to Bisharp plus Landorus, yet to call for either to be banned solely by this claim is ridiculous; stall simply needs to adapt to this combination. The same goes for whatever few lazily-built teams that happen to lose to BP nowadays.

There in lies the problem. If your stall team does not have a hazer, you have 0 chance of winning barring a mistimed crit, if you do, it is a wierd balance of hazing and doing something after before too many boost acrew for stored power to ohko a unaware poke. Do we really want a stall team to be only viable with quagsire?

Having a results of a match pretty much set in stone at the team previews is retarded. As much as defiant knock off are a huge threat, they are nowhere near as polarizing. No team is safe against everything, but they can work around their weaknesses with proactive double switching and such. Against bp, if you don't have one of few movesets out of a pool of a few pokes on your team, the result is predetermined against a good bp player.

EDIT by Haunter: seriously learn how to multi quote.

 

[Valentine]

Don't remember who it was, but someone tagged me here, so i'm just going to go ahead and share my opinions on Baton Pass. I used a full Baton Pass team in game one of my series against blarajan in OST 10. After scouting, i knew that blarajan was under prepared for it, which translated into an effortless 1-0 lead for me, and that's bullshit. Scouting your opponent is a large part of most official tournaments, and you have the agency to bring a 'counter team'. However, even when you bring a 'counter team', your opponent should still have ways to win the match. Lets say i notice while scouting that my opponent is consistently weak to Keldeo. Just becaue I bring a Keldeo doesn't mean I win automatically. He still has ways to kill my Keldeo, and with on par play, he can still win. However, I think that Baton Pass works a little different. If my opponent is weak to Baton Pass, and I bring Baton Pass, no matter how well he plays, he's pretty fucked.

In general, i think Baton Pass is too much to prepare for. People saying that offense has Taunt Thundurus, and stall has Haze Quagsire need to catch themselves. If i have to run a specific Pokemon, with a specific move, that's overcentralization (not to mention Haze Quagsire is pretty fucking redundant since you already have Unaware to ignore stat boosts, and dropping Toxic, Scald, or EQ is harsh as shit). But i digress, i'm going to dive into the questions.

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
This is a bad question, but whatever. I can't say that it is. The metagame has developed, and will continue to develop, with or without the presence of full Baton Pass teams. But that doesn't change the fact that they are hard to prepare for, and allow bad players to win matches they wouldn't otherwise.

What elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Ingrain and Magic Bounce are the biggest problems. Without these two things, Baton Pass' best bet against Roar and Whirlwind is Wonder Skin Venomoth, which is, along with Mental Herb Recycle Mew or Mr. Mime, also the best thing they would have for Taunt. These are pretty insufficient methods of dealing with phazing, and taunt.

edit: left out something that needs to be explained. In 4th generation, before Speed Boost, before Stored Power, there were full Baton Pass teams. Pokemon like Zapdos were used with Agility+Baton Pass. Instead of sweeping with Stored Power, they used Metagross in the 6th slot. If you took Stored Power away, you would probably just see Shadow Ball Sylveon, and your ass is getting swept once it hits +6, since Fairy+Ghost is perfect coverage. If you took Speed Boost away, you would just see Agility Passers. Speed Boost and Stored Power are not required to make Baton Pass overwhelming, they are just conveniences.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Yes, but this is an awful approach, and that is going too far. We don't have to ban Pokemon completely to fix the problems Baton Pass chains present.

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
I'm actually not against this, but I still think it's going too far. The only other uses of Baton Pass are: dry passing (which is utterly irrelevant in this metagame), SmashPassing (a pretty cheesy strat that is also looked down upon by tour players), and other forms of QuickPassing (stuff like Venomoth and Scoliopede). While SmashPass and QuickPass can be annoying to deal with at times, they are definitely not broken strategies. I think the best option is to look for ways to nerf full BP chains, while maintaining BP.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans?
I think a complex ban is the best option here. Banning Magic Bounce+Baton Pass is something to consider, assuming that this ban would apply to Absol before it evolved. Ingrain+Baton Pass is also another option to consider, since it only applies to Smeargle. However, even if we apply both of these complex bans to the tier, it still forces you to run Taunt or a phazing move to be completely safe against Baton Pass. I think that limiting the amount of Baton Pass users on a team sounds stupid, but may just be the best solution.

 

[fleurdyleurse]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

It really depends on what development in this scenario means. If it means deterring new players, then to a certain extent, yes. Baton Pass was actually "buffed" with a new Speed Boost user, Scolipede. Scolipede is much better than Ninjask and can pass Iron Defense, SD, and Subs as well as Speed. However, if you mean development as in growth, then we really need to let the metagame take shape first. We just banned Swagger a few days ago, and now we're talking about Baton Pass. Also, for people saying that Espeon is frail, it certainly isn't after a few boosts. There are a few obscure counters, although some not that obscure, like Prankster + Taunt which we see on Thundurus and is quite common (32.642% of Thundurus use it), Prankster + Haze which only Murkrow gets.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

I'll start my answer with the components of a common BP team. 1) Speed Boost Passer (Scolipede) 2) Magic Bouncer (Espeon; M-Absol) 3) Defensive Boost Passer (Vaporeon, Mr. Mime, Scizor, Zapdos). If we remove the Speed Boost Passer, the team will not work as well, as it will have to spend turns using Agility or another variant of it. If we remove the Magic Bouncer, it could be said that the team won't work at all, but it still can, if the opponent doesn't carry Roar/Whirlwind. If we remove the Defensive Boost Passer, the team will probably function okay, but not as well. In other words, everything in a BP team is essential to help it function.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

No. Scolipede and Espeon have other uses, and banning them to Ubers is simply ridiculous. Same goes for the others.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

No. Baton Pass can be used for other purposes like evading Pursuit without switching (and is probably the only reason why it's used outside BP teams.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Yes. Something I'll like will be [Speed Boost + Baton Pass] + [Magic Bounce + Stored Power + Baton Pass].

That's all I'll like to say.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Well let's give my two cents. I completely disagree that bp might be detrimental do the development of the metagame, and I'd like to raise a question: what metagame is that? The standard, traditional, offense-stall one? I'm getting the impression that people are already deciding what they want the metagame to be, and advocating for banning anything they perceive as a deviation of that ideal metagame. But I see baton pass as being already part of the metagame, like it or not. And frankly, it's not that hard to counter, offensive teams eat it for breakfast. Balanced teams so do well as long as they lead with one of the numerous offensive pokemon who destroy bp (mostly special attackers, as has been pointed before). Stall teams have the hardest time, having to resort to stuff like haze quagsire, but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't stall made completely unviable last gen because of weather? Did we ban weather because of that? Then why does bp only deserve the axe?
I also disagree that it doesn't require any skill or metagame knowledge to use. You need to know which pokemon are likely to use taunt, whiwind or other countering moves and predict when they are going to use those, which offensive pokemon can shut you down... and respond accordingly, using one of six pomemon that answer to different threats. If that's not metagaming, I don't know what it is. Sure, it's not the exact metagame knowledge an hypper offensive player would have to use, but that falls in the previous problem: people wanting to define what the metagame should be instead of allowing it to develop organically.
The truth is, everybody wants to ban what they perceive as annoying and unfun to play against. That was the actual reason we banned swagger. But annoying is not enough for a community that wants to be rational and scientific. If it was, we'd have to ball stall, which is also very annoying to play against, and no sensible player would advocate to ban stall. Baton pass is a lot closer to stall than it is to swagplay, because it does not involve luck, it requires intelligent switching and adapting to your opponent's moves and it needs a full team of pokemon doing different roles to function. Swagplay is nothing like that, its just a bunch of pokemon using the same four moves in sucesssion.
So, instead of writing many pages about the merit of complex bans so they get rid of the latest annoying playstyle they hate, I ask people to think whether bp is really uncompetitive, of if it's just annoying. Because I think it's the later.

 

[Jaffa Ball]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

- Yes. I haven't seen Baton Pass teams too much, but I have seen them. Scolipede is in my view the team's core, as flat-out there is no way to hit it because of Substitute/Protect/Speed Boost , without Mega-Heracross, Cloyster or various other multi-move Pokemon. Therefore if the core of Baton Pass teams can't be hit at ALL and delivers unmatchable Speed to any teammate it wishes it is potentially unhealthy to the metagame. Though Haze provides a perfect answer to Baton Pass teams, teams have 24 total moves and if to be able to counter Baton Pass it needs to waste one move, it is overcentralizing. Sidenote: I'm not sure if Substitute/ Magic Bounce counteract Haze. This would present another problem making the only true counters being lucky crits. Also Magic Bounce and Ingrain, are staples in Baton Pass teams and increase longevity and grinds all status inflincting Pokemon to a halt, making it even harder to deal with as a strategy.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

- I think I went over that pretty well in the last post but in my opinion, Baton Pass has always been there, but in the past it was counterable and gimmicky but now with the new Fairy type and the fantastic synergy Pokemon Like Scolipede/ Espeon / Sylveon/ Smeargle/ Mr.Mime/ Vaporeon has become a reliable strategy with a skill element but mostly just spamming certain moves. I don't think Smogon should just ban all viable strategies but the fact Baton Pass has few counters that are rare in the metagame themselves pushes Baton Pass over the edge.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

-No. As it is, most Pokemon on Baton Pass aren't in OU because of Baton Pass, they are there because they can do other things, they are versatile, and their other sets aren't unbalanced they are healthy towards the metagame. So no, this issue has to take another form either Blanket-Banning Baton Pass or some sort of complex ban that wouldn't affect the viability of certain Pokemon running OTHER sets healthy to the metagame.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

-Yes. I am under the impression which I am sure is true is that the community makes decisions for the health of the metagame. And if the only way to counter this strategy which requires very specific counters is to ban the move Baton Pass altogether than I whole-heartedly support it,
a) Because the ban wouldn't affect the viability of other uses BP Pokemon, e.g Espeon's uses as a Dual Screener.
b) I support the decision to ban anything unhealthy to the metagame.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

-Yes. Yes a complex ban consensus would be the BEST way to handle this. Here are three ones that could work:
1) Banning Magic Bounce + Baton Pass / Baton Pass + Ingrain
2) No more than 2-4 Pokemon who know the move Baton Pass on one team (Not sure what number would be best...)
3) Banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass

This wouldn't at all effect healthy aspects of the metagame and would counteract the problem at hand. Also I realise this isn't everything but tackles the main issues at hand.

 

[vayu]

Well let's give my two cents. I completely disagree that bp might be detrimental do the development of the metagame, and I'd like to raise a question: what metagame is that? The standard, traditional, offense-stall one? I'm getting the impression that people are already deciding what they want the metagame to be, and advocating for banning anything they perceive as a deviation of that ideal metagame. But I see baton pass as being already part of the metagame, like it or not. And frankly, it's not that hard to counter, offensive teams eat it for breakfast. Balanced teams so do well as long as they lead with one of the numerous offensive pokemon who destroy bp (mostly special attackers, as has been pointed before). Stall teams have the hardest time, having to resort to stuff like haze quagsire, but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't stall made completely unviable last gen because of weather? Did we ban weather because of that? Then why does bp only deserve the axe?
I also disagree that it doesn't require any skill or metagame knowledge to use. You need to know which pokemon are likely to use taunt, whiwind or other countering moves and predict when they are going to use those, which offensive pokemon can shut you down... and respond accordingly, using one of six pomemon that answer to different threats. If that's not metagaming, I don't know what it is. Sure, it's not the exact metagame knowledge an hypper offensive player would have to use, but that falls in the previous problem: people wanting to define what the metagame should be instead of allowing it to develop organically.
The truth is, everybody wants to ban what they perceive as annoying and unfun to play against. That was the actual reason we banned swagger. But annoying is not enough for a community that wants to be rational and scientific. If it was, we'd have to ball stall, which is also very annoying to play against, and no sensible player would advocate to ban stall. Baton pass is a lot closer to stall than it is to swagplay, because it does not involve luck, it requires intelligent switching and adapting to your opponent's moves and it needs a full team of pokemon doing different roles to function. Swagplay is nothing like that, its just a bunch of pokemon using the same four moves in sucesssion.
So, instead of writing many pages about the merit of complex bans so they get rid of the latest annoying playstyle they hate, I ask people to think whether bp is really uncompetitive, of if it's just annoying. Because I think it's the later.

It is uncompetitive merely because you must have one of half a dozen pokes that somewhat autowins you the game at the team preview, or you autolose the game at the team preview, rarely is their any in-between. Playing as a BP player means that w/l depends on what teams you face, not really how well your oponents can execute with that team. By any standards, that is uncompetitive.

BP chains are only tolerated because they are not faced that often, imagine if BP as common was rotom-w was in the beggining of pokebankou beta, it is unequivocally be dealt with.

 

[gallolala]

2) No more than 4 Pokemon who know the move Baton Pass on one team

This. I was personally thinking of 3 or something because, well, if you have a regular team that happens to have baton pass on it, it definitely isn't going to be more than 3. Then again, if you can build a well-working baton pass team with only 4 mons, you deserve that win.

 

[X5Dragon]

To those who are thinking deep within that we are ganging up on a playstyle because it's different from "standard", example offense and stall teams, I suggest you reread the OP again, what we are talking about here is a nerf, not a full ban on BP. You know, similar to nerfs we have decided would be useful for the metagame against offense (Genesect, Mega Gengar/Luca/Kanga) and the uber list for all other playstyles. This and other "fringe" playstyle are not being discriminated against, we are simply trying to offer a competitive, fair and balanced meta.

There has been lots of suggestions how to approach a potential nerf (RIP English warning), but from what I can glance from the majority who want a nerf, the best solution would allow for:

A) Magic Bounce Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede to remain OU.
B) Allow the usage of Baton Pass.
C) More than one member learning BP is OK provided a nerf is done.

The would put the following suggestions in huge favor:

1) No more than 4 Pokemon who know the move Baton Pass on one team
2) Banning BP (move) + Espeon + Scolipede on the same team or BP + Speed Boost + Magic Bounce
3) Banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass

 

[Gwerks]

Well let's give my two cents. I completely disagree that bp might be detrimental do the development of the metagame, and I'd like to raise a question: what metagame is that? The standard, traditional, offense-stall one? I'm getting the impression that people are already deciding what they want the metagame to be, and advocating for banning anything they perceive as a deviation of that ideal metagame. But I see baton pass as being already part of the metagame, like it or not. And frankly, it's not that hard to counter, offensive teams eat it for breakfast. Balanced teams so do well as long as they lead with one of the numerous offensive pokemon who destroy bp (mostly special attackers, as has been pointed before). Stall teams have the hardest time, having to resort to stuff like haze quagsire, but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't stall made completely unviable last gen because of weather? Did we ban weather because of that? Then why does bp only deserve the axe?
I also disagree that it doesn't require any skill or metagame knowledge to use. You need to know which pokemon are likely to use taunt, whiwind or other countering moves and predict when they are going to use those, which offensive pokemon can shut you down... and respond accordingly, using one of six pomemon that answer to different threats. If that's not metagaming, I don't know what it is. Sure, it's not the exact metagame knowledge an hypper offensive player would have to use, but that falls in the previous problem: people wanting to define what the metagame should be instead of allowing it to develop organically.
The truth is, everybody wants to ban what they perceive as annoying and unfun to play against. That was the actual reason we banned swagger. But annoying is not enough for a community that wants to be rational and scientific. If it was, we'd have to ball stall, which is also very annoying to play against, and no sensible player would advocate to ban stall. Baton pass is a lot closer to stall than it is to swagplay, because it does not involve luck, it requires intelligent switching and adapting to your opponent's moves and it needs a full team of pokemon doing different roles to function. Swagplay is nothing like that, its just a bunch of pokemon using the same four moves in sucesssion.
So, instead of writing many pages about the merit of complex bans so they get rid of the latest annoying playstyle they hate, I ask people to think whether bp is really uncompetitive, of if it's just annoying. Because I think it's the later.

The rationale behind banning swagger and foul play was that any person could simply be educated on this strategy and employ it with little knowledge of the metagame beyond it. Sure, this strategy annoyed people, but that is not why it was banned. If the community banned everything that was annoying, Sub/Toxic Gliscor would be banned so hard. But that stalling little bitch sits happily on my team. Nope, the actual reason for the ban was that it left the game up to chance in so many scenarios (hence why Horn Drill, Sheer Cold etc. were banned). The logic is flawless. Nonetheless, the Swagger-Foul Play ban should not be compared with the baton pass issue.

The red flag on baton pass is not the result of people saying "this is so annoying, I wish people would play like me". The real reason is simple - overcentralisation.

For example, early Gen 6, Genesect and Kangaskan Mega were banned. Why? Because nearly every team had to have a Garchomp or Ferrothorn holding rocky helmet so that Kangaskan Mega would faint itself from passive damage. Similarly, every team needed an answer to Genesect. This severely limits team building and results in a boring and unhealthy metagame where every team has severe overlap.

Let's apply the same logic to baton pass. Taunt, roar and whirlwind are very easy to incorporate into any team. That is not enough to handle baton pass teams (due to Espeon). Haze or ridiculously excellent prediction is needed to be confident you can get your foot in the door (reminder that I'm talking about facing a well built BP team). The number of people here who suggest running haze Tentacruel or Quagsire don't seem to realise how circumstantial this is. How well is your haze Quaggy gonna fair against the rest of the metagame? Crap. Yet, without it, so many teams are almost guaranteed to fall to baton pass chains.

While I agree that baton pass does require a level of skill and knowledge to execute excellently, I need to stress the fact that it doesn't require all that much effort - the real effort was in designing the teams, which everyone just copies anyways.

You've mentioned hyper offence as an easy counter to BP teams, and even said that balanced teams generally have no trouble. Hyper offense is easy enough to weather barring a few specific pokes(e.g. iron defense Scolipede and calm mind Sylveon have you covered), and balanced teams are actually the primary targets of BP teams because they struggle to get 1HKOs against such fast defensive Pokemon.

The educated community doesn't hate baton pass because it's annoying (although it is). Many support the baton pass strategy as viable and safe, which is fine. But those who consider it to be overpowered and detrimental to the metagame have plenty of ground to stand on.

 

[Vryheid]

The incoherent arguments against Baton Pass in this thread can pretty much be summarized in one statement:

"I A. don't want to make a good team and B. are unwilling to predict, so we should ban a team strategy that takes advantage of these faults"

This nonsense some people are posting about Baton Pass being "uncompetitive" ignores the facts that (unlike Swagger) BP strategies are NOT luck based, do not require critical hits to beat, and are in no way an automatic victory if the opponent isn't carrying some custom tailored counter. What these people need to understand is that successful strategies cannot always be boiled down to type coverage and damage calculations. At a high level of play, you will face teams where switching in "Smogon approved" counters to every conceivable threat will not be enough to beat most opponents. Being able to identify an opposing play-style and react appropriately is key to winning matches, even if those responses don't fit the traditional definition of "safe" play.

In general, play-styles in Pokemon fit roughly in one of these four categories:

A. Material- Hyper-offense with some limited team support which depends on favorably "trading down" teammates to maintain a continual Pokemon lead against an opponent

B. Momentum- A pressure based strategy which cripples an opponent's defensive core to win with an end-game sweep using a powerful offensive threat

C. Control- Slowly diminishing an opponent's offensive presence through the use of hazards, status and and other tools centered around stall

D. Gambits- Offensive or defensive lockdown strategy that banks on excellent prediction with extremely flexible team synergy to overwhelm every conceivable opponent

Teams can use differing combinations of these strategies, but being able to react appropriately to each strategy is a huge part of being a good player. Baton Pass teams are primarily a gambit based style and should be treated accordingly. If the Baton Pass team is well built, they will not always lose to "counters" like Talonflame or Azumarill because they will have Pokemon waiting in advance like physically bulky Zapdos with Charge Beam which will force them out repeatedly as they begin to set up boosts. They will not instantly lose to Sableye because they will know when to force it into situations such as vs Vaporeon where it either risks allowing a setup move or taking a Scald burn. They will even manage to get around the dreaded Haze with either a supporter or some extremely fast Taunt play. A good BP team does not need 6 BP mons on it to function well, in fact it may be more threatening for them to have one Pokemon dedicated to countering threats such as Unaware mons. If this all sounds very conditional on advantageous Pokemon matchups, that's the point of a gambit based team- a BP player is very dependent on maintaining type resistances, switching in a Magic Bounce user whenever you use hazards/Roar/Whirlwind, and never getting caught off guard with random status moves or crippling hits. With Scolipede not having any reliable form of recovery and BP teams being highly reliant on speed boosts to maintain a type advantage, BP users cannot afford to be making more than one or two bad switchins if they want to guarantee their advantage in a match.

Speaking of prediction, you can do that too. Most prediction against BP revolves around abusing how incredibly vulnerable the Magic Bounce users are to predicted switchins. l will list a few examples. If you have a Thundurus that's obviously looks like it's going to use Taunt against their initial Scolipede, why not instead predict the inevitable Espeon switchin and go for Knock Off instead? The worst that can happen is that they try to set up Iron Defense in your face, at which point you can Taunt them next turn and force out a switch to Espeon regardless. If you lead with Heatran against Scolipede, try starting off with Lava Plume on the first turn and see how they react- if they go immediately to Espeon and get burned, you've conditioned them not to make that switch in the future and can probably use Roar the next time you send Heatran out. If they don't switch out, you know that they probably don't think Heatran can phaze and you have a good bet succeeding with Roar the next turn. BP teams also hate the dreaded Stealth Rock, so even a Ferrothorn lead against Scolipede or Ninjask is best off going right for a Gyro Ball against the inevitable Espeon switchin. You can make this pressure play several times throughout the match, switching into something like Mr Mime and forcing them into Espeon while you either go immediately for another Gyro Ball (if they haven't got defensive boosts yet) or switching into a hard hitting Knock Off user (if they have). Espeon cannot take the continual pressure if it never has a chance to use Recover, and once it gets knocked out the BP team will fall apart.

Protect not being able to stop Roar/Whirlwind in Gen 6 means you can bank on switches from Scolipede to Espeon any time you have a phazer out on the field. Scolipede's not being able to scout out one of these moves and get a free speed boost in is actually a huge nerf to BP teams that does not get the attention it deserves, likely because it's still not common knowledge. If you're running an offensive team and are confident that most of your teammates can force out Espeon (not very hard to do), you might not even have to predict the switch- just throw out a Whirlwind first turn and even if it gets bounced back you will still be in a position where the BP team is behind on momentum (being forced to switch out yet again just to save Espeon) and not sitting on any boosts. Maintain momentum with volt/turn or with attacks that hit the likely switchin super effectively and you can beat one or two members on a BP team before they get a single boost.

The point of these above examples is that the best way to beat a gambit based strategy is to break their chain of predictions. One misplayed switchin by a Baton Pass user will hurt them far more than it would a standard OU team. Every single competent OU team should have the tools to outpredict a Baton Pass player, even if they can't hard counter it.

Speaking of countering, there are plenty of common Pokemon in the OU tier that require very little prediction to use and, while not unstoppable, give Baton Pass teams a hell of a lot of trouble. These include:

-Most Talonflame sets
-Mega Pinsir
-Wash Rotom with Trick
-Unaware Clefable
-Quagsire
-Tyranitar with Stealth Rock or Roar
-Belly Drum Azumarill
-Tail Glow Manaphy
-Sableye
-Mega Charizard Y

Note that there are plenty of ways to custom tailor just about any Pokemon to deal with Baton Pass (such as slapping a Red Card on it), the above list just covers threats which are already standard in the Smogon meta. If your can't play the phaze/predict punishment game as described earlier you should probably be be using at least one of the above tools. And even then, as I stated earlier, there are no foolproof counters to a good Baton Pass user- you still have to use your brain to read your opponents moves and condition them into the responses you want before you can start tearing holes in their team. Which brings me to my final point- stop complaining about worst case scenarios. It's your own damn fault if you let them get up to +6 Defense before you whip out your Azumarill.

In a nutshell, Baton Pass is not broken, it does not deserve to get nerfed, and if anyone does not believe me I will be happy to take on any Baton Pass team you can come up with and show you that they are indeed entirely capable of being beaten without using a dedicated counter. I'm sure there are other posters in this thread who feel the same way.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Ok time for my two cents.

I think this falls into a similar boat with Swagger in that "man I really hate facing these teams" except the difference here is that Swagplay is uncompetitive/luck based while Baton Pass is not, which is important since I think a major, if not the sole, reason for the Swagger ban was it's uncompetitive effects on the metagame. There are definitely ways to beat Baton Pass without running Pokemon that would otherwise be unviable, set up Pokemon like Mega Pinsir, Gyarados, or Mega Tyranitar and Prankster mons give them an incredibly difficult time. Can't win with Stall? Time to bring back Perish Song which would force them to run the SPECTACULAR Mr.Mime.

Furthermore, how would one even ban Baton Pass? There are practical uses of Baton Pass outside of full BP teams and I think that most people, myself included, are inherently against complex bans. What does that leave us with? The banning of Espeon? Scolipede? None of these options sound very good and I think that if you're really having a problem with BP on the ladder you should switch your team around and get some easy wins because of all the problems that come along with using BP.

 

[Chester]

The would put the following suggestions in huge favor:

1) No more than 4 Pokemon who know the move Baton Pass on one team
2) Banning BP (move) + Espeon + Scolipede on the same team or BP + Speed Boost + Magic Bounce
3) Banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass

If anything, 3) should be Stored Power instead of Speed Boost. But yeah, it's still early to say something about bans or not bans, all I can see is an unoficial suspect test (BP Chains teams got a huge pike in metagame as soon as one or two top ladderers mentioned it "should be banned next" while swagplay suspect was going on), and people who can't leave their comfort zone of HO x Stall.

Like I always say, "if ain't broken, don't fix it." There are strange noises, true, but with the mess of a metagame we have now, we can't say it is or isn't broken

 

[Aquaslash]

I'll take a shot at the questions in the OP for a bit. Then I'll really dig into this thread when I'm not at work.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

Of course not. Really, a BP team archetype is hardly different from stall, hyper offense, balance, trick room and even weather teams. You might get a few mindless wins here and there, but if you're uneducated about the threats you have, you're going to be getting more Ls than Ws. Just like any playstyle, it has its strengths and weaknesses. I don't really subscribe to the idea that the match is decided at Team Preview either. However, if it was, you know what that would require? Knowledge of what your checks and counters are and how to beat them. Why is this something that should be punished? If anything, learning how to overcome your weaknesses should be basic knowledge for a skilled player.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

I think a few things are getting people to at least think about it. Scoliopede is the biggest thing. The Eeveelutions in general are also a big part of it. All of them have stored power and heal bell, five of them have type immunities and three of those get boosted by eating said immunities, three of them are really bulky, one of them is godly fast, and they are mostly pretty good special attackers. There's also Magic Bounce which stops setting up passive damage in its tracks. However, the thing to key in about all of this is that it all tends to make BP teams generally predictable. The fact that many viable BP users are Eeveelutions is a double edge sword. For the most part, they all have lousy movepools, and they tend to overspecialize. They have one or two things that they're REALLY good at, but they don't have much outside of that. Seems no different to any other archetype really.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

No. I actually don't use Scoliopede in my BP team. Speed boosting is left to getting Agility boosts, which is a challenge in itself. Additionally Scoliopede gets WRECKED by Talonflame. There is literally nothing be can do and leave in one piece. He can protect all he wants, but he's taking a BB BEFORE he sets up Iron Defense, and then he's taking one BEFORE he baton passes. Then whatever he brought in is also taking a BB unless it's like, Mawile or something. Espeon is pretty frail without defense boosts itself. Not only that, but it's weak to Knock Off which is literally everywhere. Additionally, being an Eevee it's fairly predictable. It's either going to be dual screening, or boosting to power up stored power. Furthermore, it can't run Stored Power, Dazzling Gleam (for Dark types), AND HP Fire (for strong bugs), while still carrying CM and BP. Once you figure out what set it's using, it ought to be simple enough to dispatch.

But even if you DO ban those guys, there are others that can do the job that they can, or the BP user has to get more creative.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Absolutely not! Yeah I run a BP team, but like I said, I WORK for all of my wins. Every W I get that isn't a forfeit is truly a "super mega win" in my eyes. Furthermore, BP teams aren't the only ones to use BP. What about dark weak mons trying to avoid pursuit. What about quick boosts?

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Definitely not. Using BP requires just as much knowledge as any other playstyle, and in many cases is considerably harder than some others. Honestly, it really really feels like people are set in their ways, and want to ban everything that they can't beat with their old tactics. What happened to evolving and adapting to new threats? Every team is not going to beat everything. No matter how good you get, there will always be someone better. You win some, you lose some. It's all a part of the game.

 

[X5Dragon]

Nefing a playstyle =/= Banning it.

Anyway about the supposed counter/check list:

-Most Talonflame sets

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 106-126 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 254-302 (85.2 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


-Mega Pinsir
-Belly Drum Azumarill

I can agree that these ones at least act as a checks.


-Wash Rotom with Trick

This falls within the same argument that says one Prankster Thundrus/Sylveon/etc. of your own would be enough to stop swagplay, you counter 1 pokemon, how about the other 5?

-Unaware Clefable
-Quagsire

"Unaware will not prevent the moves Stored Power and Punishment from factoring in the stat changes that determine their power."

-Tyranitar with Stealth Rock or Roar

Sound proof, Spore/Ingrain Smeargle.

-Tail Glow Manaphy
-Mega Charizard Y

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Sableye

Sylveon.

 

[Aquaslash]

You could probably make a list like that for any counters to a playstyle. That doesn't make said play style broken. This also places burden on the BP team to not only have all of those things (I only have Vaporeon and Sylveon myself) but to be able to identify and beat them. How is that any different from any type of team?

 

[modernhalo999]

I would say a nerf to baton pass.

-Limit baton pass to 1 pokemon per team

And I a complex ban of speed boost/baton pass

 

[Aidin]

Ok, let's get into baton pass. The problems with the whole strategy:
- Since it works just like volturn, you can't predict aroudn it
- If you pass the speed, you can just switch in a counter to every poke, which has all the necessary moves
- The only way to beat the team is by priority taunt, with deoxys speed (Because of the possibility to pass to espeon which is caused by the speed given by scolipede) or with priority fllying (the second even fails to outspeed after a few boosts), however, not all of these teams can run these.
- It is almost impossible to stop scolipede from passing at least some speed.
-Unfortunately, contrary to what aqualash said, baton pass requires no skill to use. If you get off the speed, which is often very easy, you can just keep on baton passing to other pokes which coutner whatever the oponent brings in.

So, let's have a look at the dashes,, when we have a look at it, we can see that the problem with baton pass consists of a lot of things that make the strategy so (over)power(ful)(ed). These include: magic bounce, speed, and the ability to pass to every single pokemon on your team, making it impossible to get a good hit off. This leads me to believe that there are two options:
- Ban a speedboosting move/ability + baton pass + magic boucne + baton pass
- Ban baton pass chains by banning more than three pokes carrying baton pass

 

[Over Zealous]

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

This can be luck-based, but doesn't have to be (see: 4th gen Wobb, who was effective enough then to remove the ability to "do anything about it" largely from the enemy player, and was banned for uncompetitive-ness); but most uncompetitive strategies that are banned usually have a high appeal to luck.

While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause."

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
  
  Baton Pass, by itself, is no problem for the development of the metagame.
  
  
• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
  
  Speed Boost and Magic Bounce in conjunction with Baton Pass.
  
  
• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
  
  No. Espeon and Scolipede are not broken by themselves.
  
  
• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
  
  No. Baton Pass is a legitimate strategy, and not specifically broken.
  
  
• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
  
  I advocate the complex ban of Speed Boost Scolipede with Baton Pass, and Magic Bounce Espeon with Baton Pass, as it takes away the autonomy of the game. A player can do little in the face of free/trivial Speed Boosts and Magic Bounce.
  
  Scolipede can acquire a free +1 Speed boost with Protect (or Substitute), and +2 or +3 Speed is trivial. A Pokemon that can acquire 1-3 Speed boosts and pass to any Pokemon with virtual surety is unhealthy for the metagame. As noted, the trivial Speed boosts means even the fastest of Taunt users are suddenly outpaced, leaving only Prankster Taunt a true counter. Prankster Taunt, and certainly phasing moves like Roar and Whirlwind, are easily countered by Magic Bounce. A Magic Bounce user such as Espeon is then free to gather further boosts, out-speeding everything outside of Prankster and Priority, and can then Baton Pass if somehow threatened by Dragon Tail or hyper offensive threats.
  
  Baton Pass counters:
  
  Taunt, Whirlwind, Roar, Haze, Dragon Tail, Perish Song, Encore, and Priority/Prankster.
  
  The 'hard counter' to Baton Pass chains are Haze and Prankster Taunt. Haze is uncommon, most users prefer other moves (Gengar prefers Taunt in general) and others like Amoongus are scarcely viable in the OU environment. Prankster Taunt hard-counters everything but the main Baton Pass user: Magic Bounce Espeon. Prankster Taunt users like Sableeye are a niche counter at that. (Even a good Prankster Taunt user can be rendered useless by Focus Sash Smeargle with easy prediction and relative ease. And players shouldn't be restricted and forced to run a Prankster Taunt user on account of 1 move.)
  
  Phasing like Whirlwind and Roar are countered by Espeon, and even without Magic Bounce, are negative priority (nevermind the Speed boosts) and easily die to boosted threats before phasing can happen. Dragon Tail is uncommon, if not obscure, with only 90% accuracy, and outpaced besides, courtesy of Speed Boost, and completely countered by Sylveon.
  
  Even Priority like Scizor's Bullet Punch is no real threat to even a remotely modest Baton Pass player.
  
  Critical hits are not counters to Baton Pass, as they are entirely luck based, unreliable, with no guarantee at stopping the chain even on the optimal die roll.
  
  Unconventional counters like Red Card users are just that: unconventional, obscure, niche counters that do not defeat Baton Pass chains, but merely makes the opponent start over (wash, rinse, repeat).
  
  Speed Boosting Scolipede and Magic Bouncing & Baton Passing Espeon restricts teambuilding, and hinders, if not stifles the development of entire archetypes. Even if this were untrue, Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost and Magic Bounce exacerbates the matchup component: either you win via 1 of 2 dedicated and niche counters, or you lose, and has proven to require little skill of competitive battling outside elementary prediction, and virtually no knowledge of the metagame is required for victory.
  
  Baton Pass is a legitimate strategy; it isn't broken by itself, and it is a part of the metagame. Players are free to use creativity with the strategy, like dry and half-Passing, or bold chains, but should not be able to trivially do so by nature of Speed Boost and Magic Bounce.
  
  As a consistently top 500 ranking player of the OU tier, it is my experience and knowledge Speed Boost and Magic Bounce Baton Passing is unhealthy for the metagame. Baton Pass is firmly a top ranking gimmick, and lends its success to Speed Boost and Magic Bounce, and top players not only stigmatize the gimmick (because it truly lacks little skill and knowledge of the metagame) but can testify its unbalanced, uncompetitive nature.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[KeldeoJustified]

Actually I think mold breaker+taunt is best solution so don't ban anything

the pokemons that get this combo are:
Axew, Basculin, Basculin-Blue-Striped, Druddigon, Fraxure, Gyarados-Mega, Hawlucha, Haxorus, Pangoro, Sawk, Throh

 

[vayu]

The incoherent arguments against Baton Pass in this thread can pretty much be summarized in one statement:

"I A. don't want to make a good team and B. are unwilling to predict, so we should ban a team strategy that takes advantage of these faults"

This nonsense some people are posting about Baton Pass being "uncompetitive" ignores the facts that (unlike Swagger) BP strategies are NOT luck based, do not require critical hits to beat, and are in no way an automatic victory if the opponent isn't carrying some custom tailored counter. What these people need to understand is that successful strategies cannot always be boiled down to type coverage and damage calculations. At a high level of play, you will face teams where switching in "Smogon approved" counters to every conceivable threat will not be enough to beat most opponents. Being able to identify an opposing play-style and react appropriately is key to winning matches, even if those responses don't fit the traditional definition of "safe" play.

In general, play-styles in Pokemon fit roughly in one of these four categories:

A. Material- Hyper-offense with some limited team support which depends on favorably "trading down" teammates to maintain a continual Pokemon lead against an opponent

B. Momentum- A pressure based strategy which cripples an opponent's defensive core to win with an end-game sweep using a powerful offensive threat

C. Control- Slowly diminishing an opponent's offensive presence through the use of hazards, status and and other tools centered around stall

D. Gambits- Offensive or defensive lockdown strategy that banks on excellent prediction with extremely flexible team synergy to overwhelm every conceivable opponent

Teams can use differing combinations of these strategies, but being able to react appropriately to each strategy is a huge part of being a good player. Baton Pass teams are primarily a gambit based style and should be treated accordingly. If the Baton Pass team is well built, they will not always lose to "counters" like Talonflame or Azumarill because they will have Pokemon waiting in advance like physically bulky Zapdos with Charge Beam which will force them out repeatedly as they begin to set up boosts. They will not instantly lose to Sableye because they will know when to force it into situations such as vs Vaporeon where it either risks allowing a setup move or taking a Scald burn. They will even manage to get around the dreaded Haze with either a supporter or some extremely fast Taunt play. A good BP team does not need 6 BP mons on it to function well, in fact it may be more threatening for them to have one Pokemon dedicated to countering threats such as Unaware mons. If this all sounds very conditional on advantageous Pokemon matchups, that's the point of a gambit based team- a BP player is very dependent on maintaining type resistances, switching in a Magic Bounce user whenever you use hazards/Roar/Whirlwind, and never getting caught off guard with random status moves or crippling hits. With Scolipede not having any reliable form of recovery and BP teams being highly reliant on speed boosts to maintain a type advantage, BP users cannot afford to be making more than one or two bad switchins if they want to guarantee their advantage in a match.

Speaking of prediction, you can do that too. Most prediction against BP revolves around abusing how incredibly vulnerable the Magic Bounce users are to predicted switchins. l will list a few examples. If you have a Thundurus that's obviously looks like it's going to use Taunt against their initial Scolipede, why not instead predict the inevitable Espeon switchin and go for Knock Off instead? The worst that can happen is that they try to set up Iron Defense in your face, at which point you can Taunt them next turn and force out a switch to Espeon regardless. If you lead with Heatran against Scolipede, try starting off with Lava Plume on the first turn and see how they react- if they go immediately to Espeon and get burned, you've conditioned them not to make that switch in the future and can probably use Roar the next time you send Heatran out. If they don't switch out, you know that they probably don't think Heatran can phaze and you have a good bet succeeding with Roar the next turn. BP teams also hate the dreaded Stealth Rock, so even a Ferrothorn lead against Scolipede or Ninjask is best off going right for a Gyro Ball against the inevitable Espeon switchin. You can make this pressure play several times throughout the match, switching into something like Mr Mime and forcing them into Espeon while you either go immediately for another Gyro Ball (if they haven't got defensive boosts yet) or switching into a hard hitting Knock Off user (if they have). Espeon cannot take the continual pressure if it never has a chance to use Recover, and once it gets knocked out the BP team will fall apart.

Protect not being able to stop Roar/Whirlwind in Gen 6 means you can bank on switches from Scolipede to Espeon any time you have a phazer out on the field. Scolipede's not being able to scout out one of these moves and get a free speed boost in is actually a huge nerf to BP teams that does not get the attention it deserves, likely because it's still not common knowledge. If you're running an offensive team and are confident that most of your teammates can force out Espeon (not very hard to do), you might not even have to predict the switch- just throw out a Whirlwind first turn and even if it gets bounced back you will still be in a position where the BP team is behind on momentum (being forced to switch out yet again just to save Espeon) and not sitting on any boosts. Maintain momentum with volt/turn or with attacks that hit the likely switchin super effectively and you can beat one or two members on a BP team before they get a single boost.

The point of these above examples is that the best way to beat a gambit based strategy is to break their chain of predictions. One misplayed switchin by a Baton Pass user will hurt them far more than it would a standard OU team. Every single competent OU team should have the tools to outpredict a Baton Pass player, even if they can't hard counter it.

Speaking of countering, there are plenty of common Pokemon in the OU tier that require very little prediction to use and, while not unstoppable, give Baton Pass teams a hell of a lot of trouble. These include:

-Most Talonflame sets
-Mega Pinsir
-Wash Rotom with Trick
-Unaware Clefable
-Quagsire
-Tyranitar with Stealth Rock or Roar
-Belly Drum Azumarill
-Tail Glow Manaphy
-Sableye
-Mega Charizard Y

Note that there are plenty of ways to custom tailor just about any Pokemon to deal with Baton Pass (such as slapping a Red Card on it), the above list just covers threats which are already standard in the Smogon meta. If your can't play the phaze/predict punishment game as described earlier you should probably be be using at least one of the above tools. And even then, as I stated earlier, there are no foolproof counters to a good Baton Pass user- you still have to use your brain to read your opponents moves and condition them into the responses you want before you can start tearing holes in their team. Which brings me to my final point- stop complaining about worst case scenarios. It's your own damn fault if you let them get up to +6 Defense before you whip out your Azumarill.

In a nutshell, Baton Pass is not broken, it does not deserve to get nerfed, and if anyone does not believe me I will be happy to take on any Baton Pass team you can come up with and show you that they are indeed entirely capable of being beaten without using a dedicated counter. I'm sure there are other posters in this thread who feel the same way.

Obviously if you know your going to face a bp team you can hard counter it, but for laddering in general, you are facing huge restrictions to make teams that don't auto lose on the team preview.

I also do not see how you can say that bp relies on prediction when it is realy a set of 100% safe choices if your opponent doesn't have one of the few hard counters. It is only when those counters exist that a bp teams to pro actively think, otherwise games are decided on the team previews.

 

[Blizzardhail]

Ok my turn. Baton Pass might be a strategy that's is quite hard to beat. However , Over Zealous stated that it is autonomous but the thing is you are comparing a battle with no prediction. As Vryheid said: a competent player can defeat baton pass with prediction. Prediction had always been a part of Pokemon and prediction is the strategy that makes baton pass handleable and not banned in previous generations. If you lose again baton pass, it's because you had a misplay. For example, if you'd suspect Espeon is switching in to reflect Deoxys-S stealth rocks, you hit it hard with knock off , also crippling it for the rest of the game. You can also run stuff like focus sash+ mirror coat which is usable without baton pass.