Thanks for pointing that out, fixed
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Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
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Please try to keep one-liners out of this thread. If you have nothing of actual value to say, then don't post.
My favorite nominations so far are my own (obviously) as well as scorpdestroyer's SDef Mandibuzz. Both are definitely solid switch-ins to Landorus, and we can always use our second pick for an offensive check. I'm not sure what some people are thinking with these suggestions though. The counter we pick should be something that can switch into Landorus, whereas Greninja, Weavile, and Froslass (sash is easily dealt with by selecting Ttar, which is already a fantastic partner for Landorus, and nothing stops Landorus from switching out of Froslass, and then it can't switch in at all) all die to one move or another.
My favorite nominations so far are my own (obviously) as well as scorpdestroyer's SDef Mandibuzz. Both are definitely solid switch-ins to Landorus, and we can always use our second pick for an offensive check. I'm not sure what some people are thinking with these suggestions though. The counter we pick should be something that can switch into Landorus, whereas Greninja, Weavile, and Froslass (sash is easily dealt with by selecting Ttar, which is already a fantastic partner for Landorus, and nothing stops Landorus from switching out of Froslass, and then it can't switch in at all) all die to one move or another.
My point with Froslass isn't so much meant to be as hard of a counter as, say, Dragonite, but to drive it away (or risk being KOd) and set up a substitute, and get in minimum two layers of spikes. It isn't a hard counter as much as a check with more utility besides countering one pokemon and one pokemon only.
If you haven't noticed, we're making 2 teams made specifically to counter each other and then battling with them. Froslass isn't that great because it can't switch in directly because Landorus can bring it down to sash (SR and Sandstorm arent too far fetched options at this early stage either), or Lando can simply U-turn out to break the sash for a teammate to KO. Froslass definitely wins 1v1 but at this stage we're trying to pick Pokemon that can switch into Landorus and still win, while hopefully limiting team 1's options and/or expanding team 2's.
I get that, but I really don't think that's going to happen in an actual battle. In order for Froslass to come in without having its Sash broken, it will have to let something else die (or go in on a Focus Blast I guess, but that's not guaranteed). That's the only way Froslass will ever be able to have a Substitute up, as if it switches in on its own, it will be brought down to its Focus Sash, making it impossible to Substitute (this would also be a free switch to a hypothetical Tyranitar).
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SAtk / 216 SDef
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Defog
This Zapdos build is never 3HKO'd by Landorus's Psychic, and by extension never 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock. Zapdos's great typing gives it multiple switch opportunities against Landorus and then has a guaranteed OHKO against it with Hidden Power Ice. Zapdos has become synonymous with Defog this baiting switches into Defiant abusers, namely Bisharp which is hit hard by Heat Wave. Heat Wave also complements Zapdos's coverage where Pokemon like Ferrothorn which would otherwise wall Zapdos are beaten easily. Defog in combination with Volt Switch allows Zapdos to act as a pivot. The lack of Roost is very noticeable however the additional coverage give Zapdos a lot more offensive presence. Whereas Defog has overall more utility throughout game for rest of the team. However little recovery Leftovers brings it is far better than nothing, especially with the bulkier build on Zapdos.
EDIT: Heat Wave Zapdos is easily able to wear down Landorus, and Roost off what damage Landorus can do back. Roost allows Zapdos to function as Defogger consistently throughout the game. The EV spread makes all the previous statements true. It has a 97.3% chance to 3HKO Landorus with Heat Wave which are pretty good odds.
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We don't necessarily need a counter to the Landorus set for Team 1. An offensive check which takes advantage of Landorus to set-up and/or kill Landorus or one of its teammates is good enough. That being said, I don't like Froslass because it is too niche and too easy for Team 1 to respond to.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 SAtk / 52 SDef / 32 Spd
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Heat Wave
- Defog
This Zapdos build is never 3HKO'd by Landorus's Psychic, and by extension never 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock. Zapdos's great typing gives it multiple switch opportunities against Landorus and then has a guaranteed OHKO against it with Hidden Power Ice. Zapdos has become synonymous with Defog this baiting switches into Defiant abusers, namely Bisharp which is hit hard by Heat Wave. Heat Wave also complements Zapdos's coverage where Pokemon like Ferrothorn which would otherwise wall Zapdos are beaten easily. Defog in combination with Volt Switch allows Zapdos to act as a pivot. The lack of Roost is very noticeable however the additional coverage give Zapdos a lot more offensive presence. Whereas Defog has overall more utility throughout game for rest of the team. However little recovery Leftovers brings it is far better than nothing, especially with the bulkier build on Zapdos.
I really like this set, but what about running Roost > HP Ice? This way Zapdos keeps its survivability so that team 1 can't take advantage of it by spamming threats to wear it down, while HP Ice probably isn't as important since you wall Lando anyway.
Alright, if hard counters we are doing, hard counters it shall be:
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SAtk / 36 Def
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
Goodra takes laughable amounts of damage from anything Landorus has, can OHKO him with Ice Beam, and can nail his common partners on the switch. This set hits Azumarill, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Greninja, Ferrothorn, etc. extremely hard, and can tank Landorus' strongest attacks quite well
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SAtk / 36 Def
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
Goodra takes laughable amounts of damage from anything Landorus has, can OHKO him with Ice Beam, and can nail his common partners on the switch. This set hits Azumarill, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Greninja, Ferrothorn, etc. extremely hard, and can tank Landorus' strongest attacks quite well
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Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Talk
Suicune counters Landorus extremely well as it can switch in and not worry much about any of Landorus's attacks because of her excellent bulk, then it can threaten Landorus with Scald or if you know it will U-Turn out, just continue Calm Minding and set yourself up.
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I honestly think that this set does ridiculously well against Landorus. Goodra takes close to nothing from it's Earth Power's, and thanks to Sheer Force it doesn't have to worry about no Special Defence Drops.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
The only way for Lando to kill is get a double Crit, but even so it's a whopping 0.4% chance to get a 2HKO.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra on a critical hit: 164-192 (42.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Not even Chansey (Max HP, Max Defence, 4 SDef) takes Landorus on that well.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
EDIT: Replying to this post here:
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Talk
Suicune counters Landorus extremely well as it can switch in and not worry much about any of Landorus's attacks because of her excellent bulk, then it can threaten Landorus with Scald or if you know it will U-Turn out, just continue Calm Minding and set yourself up.
This is incorrect. Suicune has a high chance of dying on switch-in:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even in a 1v1, due to Lando having more speed, Suicune will lose in the battle.
My bad, I thought it was Landorus-Therian as I saw the U-Turn, then the 252 evs should go into special defense, not defense. I'll edit it.
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 192-228 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There we go, now it can counter Landorus-I.
Can we see the damage calcs against Suicune?
Ok so for starters:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Zapdos: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I think you need to tailor the EV's better because the Zapdos you suggested cannot stop Lando since it is 3HKO'd w/o SR and 2HKO's after SR every single time.
But yea I can't believe I missed the voting =[ It would have turned out the same way since Greninja and U-turn Landorus would have been two of my choices anyway. It was the first damn pick of the last CtP project too -___- Anyway, I'm gonna suggest something a little less common:
Slowking (F)@Assault Vest
EV's:252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Trait: Regenerator
Calm Nature
-Scald
-Psychic
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
Slowking was one of the best answers to SF Landorus last gen and that hasn't changed this gen either. Although it takes a chunk from U-turn, EP is Landorus's next most powerful attack and only does 30% max thanks to Assault Vest, while it is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. I really don't like Assault Vest on most pokemon, but thanks to Regenerator, the King can recover its health reliably. That is also why U-turn on Lando doesn't effect it too much since it'll only do about net 25% health. I don't think her moves need much explanation: two STAB's, Ice Beam since it has a lot of good SE coverage, and Fire Blast to fuck over pokemon 4X weak to fire moves. Slowking is never 2HKO by any combinaton of U-turn/EP and I believe it'll be something that Team 1 will not want to switch into thanks to its powerful coverage options.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 SAtk / 52 SDef / 32 Spd
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Defog
This Zapdos build is never 3HKO'd by Landorus's Psychic, and by extension never 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock. Zapdos's great typing gives it multiple switch opportunities against Landorus and then has a guaranteed OHKO against it with Hidden Power Ice. Zapdos has become synonymous with Defog this baiting switches into Defiant abusers, namely Bisharp which is hit hard by Heat Wave. Heat Wave also complements Zapdos's coverage where Pokemon like Ferrothorn which would otherwise wall Zapdos are beaten easily. Defog in combination with Volt Switch allows Zapdos to act as a pivot. The lack of Roost is very noticeable however the additional coverage give Zapdos a lot more offensive presence. Whereas Defog has overall more utility throughout game for rest of the team. However little recovery Leftovers brings it is far better than nothing, especially with the bulkier build on Zapdos.
EDIT: Heat Wave Zapdos is easily able to wear down Landorus, and Roost off what damage Landorus can do back. Roost allows Zapdos to function as Defogger consistently throughout the game.
Will edit the EV spread in the morning.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Zapdos: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I think you need to tailor the EV's better because the Zapdos you suggested cannot stop Lando since it is 3HKO'd w/o SR and 2HKO's after SR every single time.
But yea I can't believe I missed the voting =[ It would have turned out the same way since Greninja and U-turn Landorus would have been two of my choices anyway. It was the first damn pick of the last CtP project too -___- Anyway, I'm gonna suggest something a little less common:
Slowking (F)@Assault Vest
EV's:252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Trait: Regenerator
Calm Nature
-Scald
-Psychic
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
Slowking was one of the best answers to SF Landorus last gen and that hasn't changed this gen either. Although it takes a chunk from U-turn, EP is Landorus's next most powerful attack and only does 30% max thanks to Assault Vest, while it is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. I really don't like Assault Vest on most pokemon, but thanks to Regenerator, the King can recover its health reliably. That is also why U-turn on Lando doesn't effect it too much since it'll only do about net 25% health. I don't think her moves need much explanation: two STAB's, Ice Beam since it has a lot of good SE coverage, and Fire Blast to fuck over pokemon 4X weak to fire moves. Slowking is never 2HKO by any combinaton of U-turn/EP and I believe it'll be something that Team 1 will not want to switch into thanks to its powerful coverage options.
Assault vest would be better on Slowbro due to his higher defense. Take less from U-turn, serve same purpose everywhere else.Ok so for starters:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Zapdos: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I think you need to tailor the EV's better because the Zapdos you suggested cannot stop Lando since it is 3HKO'd w/o SR and 2HKO's after SR every single time.
But yea I can't believe I missed the voting =[ It would have turned out the same way since Greninja and U-turn Landorus would have been two of my choices anyway. It was the first damn pick of the last CtP project too -___- Anyway, I'm gonna suggest something a little less common:
Slowking (F)@Assault Vest
EV's:252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Trait: Regenerator
Calm Nature
-Scald
-Psychic
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
Slowking was one of the best answers to SF Landorus last gen and that hasn't changed this gen either. Although it takes a chunk from U-turn, EP is Landorus's next most powerful attack and only does 30% max thanks to Assault Vest, while it is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. I really don't like Assault Vest on most pokemon, but thanks to Regenerator, the King can recover its health reliably. That is also why U-turn on Lando doesn't effect it too much since it'll only do about net 25% health. I don't think her moves need much explanation: two STAB's, Ice Beam since it has a lot of good SE coverage, and Fire Blast to fuck over pokemon 4X weak to fire moves. Slowking is never 2HKO by any combinaton of U-turn/EP and I believe it'll be something that Team 1 will not want to switch into thanks to its powerful coverage options.
Ok so for starters:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Zapdos: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I think you need to tailor the EV's better because the Zapdos you suggested cannot stop Lando since it is 3HKO'd w/o SR and 2HKO's after SR every single time.
But yea I can't believe I missed the voting =[ It would have turned out the same way since Greninja and U-turn Landorus would have been two of my choices anyway. It was the first damn pick of the last CtP project too -___- Anyway, I'm gonna suggest something a little less common:
Slowking (F)@Assault Vest
EV's:252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Trait: Regenerator
Calm Nature
-Scald
-Psychic
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
Slowking was one of the best answers to SF Landorus last gen and that hasn't changed this gen either. Although it takes a chunk from U-turn, EP is Landorus's next most powerful attack and only does 30% max thanks to Assault Vest, while it is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. I really don't like Assault Vest on most pokemon, but thanks to Regenerator, the King can recover its health reliably. That is also why U-turn on Lando doesn't effect it too much since it'll only do about net 25% health. I don't think her moves need much explanation: two STAB's, Ice Beam since it has a lot of good SE coverage, and Fire Blast to fuck over pokemon 4X weak to fire moves. Slowking is never 2HKO by any combinaton of U-turn/EP and I believe it'll be something that Team 1 will not want to switch into thanks to its powerful coverage options.
I have adjusted my EV spread, everything is now true. I forgot to factor in Sheer Force.
Slowking even with an Assault Vest and Regenerator simply can not act to counter Landorus. Whilst it may only take 30% maximum from Earth Power, it takes 48-57% from U-Turn. This means that the least damage you walk a way with from Earth Power + U-Turn factoring in Regenerator is 44%, whereas the most is 57%. That could be enough to knock you out after two switches in. Of course you would switch into the resisted moves, Psychic and Focus Blast, but you would then have to switch out fearing losing half your health. You can't comfortably switch in fearing the U-Turn and can't stay in to threaten Landorus because of it. Slowking with it's current EV spread simply isn't a counter.
Allright, so my opinion about choosing a Landorus counter here is that it primarily wants a couple of things:
1. Not being weak to Stealth Rock / U-turn
Tornadus-T @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 132 HP / 160 SAtk / 216 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Just a quick note that Team 2 should have a second Landorus check, because this set lacks reliable recovery. However, we pretty much need that regardless, so I don't see that as a big problem. Also, if we can keep Stealth Rock off the field it has a sold option of recovery, without even taking up a moveslot or a turn. Now, the reason I like this set for this, is because first of all it isn't as weak to Stealth Rock as all the other options. In fact, thanks to Regenerator, even if the opponent has every single entry hazard up, it will still recover damage upon switching in. Factoring in U-turn, it will lose a little health, but that is not really a big problem. Also, this set keeps up a bit of pressure: this would be the first pick for Team 2 so Knock Off and U-turn would be appreciated, for the same reasons I mentioned in Round 1 (cripples anything that switches in). Hurricane still packs a decent punch as well, don't expect this set to sweep, but it might grab a KO.
As for checking Landorus, this is a solid first switchin. Earth Power doesn't do anything, Focus Blast and U-turn do less than Regenerator, and Psychic does about the same. Unlike most other checks, it can't really be worn down by repeated U-turns. Hurricane and Knock Off usually KOes Landorus after one round of Stealth Rock, after two or just a little bit of prior damage it is guaranteed.
Also, I think it might be a good idea for an additional Landorus check to be picked later, something that comes in on Psychic easily, making the opponent use Earth Power expecting it to come in, and Psychic if it wants to get damage on Tornadus. Either that or a Defogger, and Landorus won't be a problem. I think there won't be a problem getting either of these, however if we don't pick either of these at the end, Tornadus-T is still a reliable Landorus check regardless.
1. Not being weak to Stealth Rock / U-turn
For me, this is important. Landorus has U-turn, and I'm pretty sure will be spamming it early in the battle. Let's say our counter is Talonflame or Zapdos. Team 1 will set up Stealth Rock as soon as possible before even sending out Landorus. Now, when Landorus is out and threatens something to the point where we are forced to switch out, we can switch in our Talonflame or Zapdos. Now, it takes 50% or 25% from Stealth Rock, ~10% from U-turn, and Team 1 will send in their Tyranitar or whatever their Zapdos counter is, and Zapdos is forced to switch out. Now, Zapdos (or Talonflame) dies the next time it switches in, as it will be at about 50% from the two Stealth Rock switchins + U-turn. That leaves it as easy pickings for Psychic. The same goes for Dragonite and Mandibuzz in my opinion (though Mandibuzz isn't as easy to force out). Also, for the same reasons I don't really expect our check to have a chance to Roost that easily if Stealth Rock isn't up.
2. Not being our DefoggerThis is I feel more of a personal opinion, but I don't think it's a good idea to make our Landorus switchin also our hazard remover. Let's say we have Defog Zapdos or Defog Latias as our Landorus switchin. You run into the same problem as issue #1. Landorus will U-turn when it gets the opportunity, leaving our Defog user taking a lot of damage either through Stealth Rock weakness or U-turn weakness, and once again being forced out. Landorus is a primary entry hazard abuser with U-turn, so having out Landorus switchin also being our Defog user means we're gonna have a hard time getting that Defog. Edit: Also, I think picking our Defogger before they pick their Stealth Rock user is a bad idea.
3. Not being Pursuit weak + slower than Choice Scarf Tyranitar or WeavileThis should explain itself. Using, say, Lati@s as Landorus check is a pretty bad idea, since they can just add a Choice Scarf Tyranitar, and one U-turn and it's gone. I would say the same goes for Dugtrio, but if you risk getting trapped by Dugtrio it's probably not a Landorus check anyways.
Tornadus-T @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 132 HP / 160 SAtk / 216 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Just a quick note that Team 2 should have a second Landorus check, because this set lacks reliable recovery. However, we pretty much need that regardless, so I don't see that as a big problem. Also, if we can keep Stealth Rock off the field it has a sold option of recovery, without even taking up a moveslot or a turn. Now, the reason I like this set for this, is because first of all it isn't as weak to Stealth Rock as all the other options. In fact, thanks to Regenerator, even if the opponent has every single entry hazard up, it will still recover damage upon switching in. Factoring in U-turn, it will lose a little health, but that is not really a big problem. Also, this set keeps up a bit of pressure: this would be the first pick for Team 2 so Knock Off and U-turn would be appreciated, for the same reasons I mentioned in Round 1 (cripples anything that switches in). Hurricane still packs a decent punch as well, don't expect this set to sweep, but it might grab a KO.
As for checking Landorus, this is a solid first switchin. Earth Power doesn't do anything, Focus Blast and U-turn do less than Regenerator, and Psychic does about the same. Unlike most other checks, it can't really be worn down by repeated U-turns. Hurricane and Knock Off usually KOes Landorus after one round of Stealth Rock, after two or just a little bit of prior damage it is guaranteed.
Also, I think it might be a good idea for an additional Landorus check to be picked later, something that comes in on Psychic easily, making the opponent use Earth Power expecting it to come in, and Psychic if it wants to get damage on Tornadus. Either that or a Defogger, and Landorus won't be a problem. I think there won't be a problem getting either of these, however if we don't pick either of these at the end, Tornadus-T is still a reliable Landorus check regardless.
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Next nomination
Azumarill
Item: Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Superpower
This is always a great set. I don't even know what to say. Pretty much +6 Play Rough's OHKO anything that resists it neutrally. Aqua Jet is a priority STAB move that can OHKO weakened pokemon, and even really defensive ones. Superpower takes care of everything else, and does huge chunks of damage.
This was supposed to be the first nomination, but laptop crashed, so yeah. This was technically before Ratchets. But if it still isn't cool, here you go:
NIDOFORCE
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 SpD, 4 HP
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt/Ice Beam
This is the only viable set that Nidoking should ever be using. All of the displayed moves are boosted by Sheer Force, and Life Orb, with even taking Life Orb damage. Sludge Wave is STAB, Earth Power is very strong STAB move. Fire Blast doesn't miss often and has high BP. Thunderbolt and Ice beam are there cause coverage.
Azumarill
Item: Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Superpower
This is always a great set. I don't even know what to say. Pretty much +6 Play Rough's OHKO anything that resists it neutrally. Aqua Jet is a priority STAB move that can OHKO weakened pokemon, and even really defensive ones. Superpower takes care of everything else, and does huge chunks of damage.
This was supposed to be the first nomination, but laptop crashed, so yeah. This was technically before Ratchets. But if it still isn't cool, here you go:
NIDOFORCE
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 SpD, 4 HP
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt/Ice Beam
This is the only viable set that Nidoking should ever be using. All of the displayed moves are boosted by Sheer Force, and Life Orb, with even taking Life Orb damage. Sludge Wave is STAB, Earth Power is very strong STAB move. Fire Blast doesn't miss often and has high BP. Thunderbolt and Ice beam are there cause coverage.
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DIE DIE DIE (Latios) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 333-394 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO - In addition, Latios outspeeds. Latios switch in on most of Lando's attacks bar U-turn.
Now that the counter-teaming part of my nomination is complete, I'll move on to the obvious pros of using Latios. This Latios provides good support for the team through pressuring the opposing team offesnsively and removing hazards through Defog. It is a nuke, destroying anything it wants with a Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor. It also has Psyshock which lets it acts as a pseudo-mixed attacker. Thunderbolt is for coverage for the likes of Zard-Y if ever we don't want to just drop the nuke on it. Defog provides invaluable team support to some very valid teammates such as Talonflame, and is just a great move to have in general.
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 333-394 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO - In addition, Latios outspeeds. Latios switch in on most of Lando's attacks bar U-turn.
Now that the counter-teaming part of my nomination is complete, I'll move on to the obvious pros of using Latios. This Latios provides good support for the team through pressuring the opposing team offesnsively and removing hazards through Defog. It is a nuke, destroying anything it wants with a Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor. It also has Psyshock which lets it acts as a pseudo-mixed attacker. Thunderbolt is for coverage for the likes of Zard-Y if ever we don't want to just drop the nuke on it. Defog provides invaluable team support to some very valid teammates such as Talonflame, and is just a great move to have in general.
I'd like to nominate the closest thing to a hard counter for Landorus: AV Togekiss
Togekiss@ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Modest
EVs: 248 HP/68 SpA/ 192 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
This set hard counters Team 1's pick and allows us the liberty of choosing a good second pick as opposed to selecting two "checks" for Lando-I.
Togekiss is also not useless, as it packs multiple resists and is quite bulky with the given EVs - flinch hax is also a bonus that can help in the end-game:
68+ SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 284-336 (89 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 91-108 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
This set also helps stop Keldeo cold, who is a common partner to Landorus-I:
68+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 254-302 (78.6 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
EDIT: BTW Roost doesn't work with AV, so we might need a defogger if we pick Togekiss
Togekiss@ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Modest
EVs: 248 HP/68 SpA/ 192 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
This set hard counters Team 1's pick and allows us the liberty of choosing a good second pick as opposed to selecting two "checks" for Lando-I.
Togekiss is also not useless, as it packs multiple resists and is quite bulky with the given EVs - flinch hax is also a bonus that can help in the end-game:
68+ SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 284-336 (89 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 91-108 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
This set also helps stop Keldeo cold, who is a common partner to Landorus-I:
68+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 254-302 (78.6 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
EDIT: BTW Roost doesn't work with AV, so we might need a defogger if we pick Togekiss
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I'd like to nominate the closest thing to a hard counter for Landorus: AV Togekiss
Togekiss@ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Modest
EVs: 248 HP/68 SpA/ 192 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Roost
This set hard counters Team 1's pick and allows us the liberty of choosing a good second pick as opposed to selecting two "checks" for Lando-I.
Togekiss is also not useless, as it packs multiple resists and is quite bulky with the given EVs - flinch hax is also a bonus that can help in the end-game:
68+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 142-168 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 91-108 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
With Roost into consideration, Togekiss can come in multiple times on Landorus, which also helps
This set also helps stop Keldeo cold, who is a common partner to Landorus-I:
68+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 254-302 (78.6 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
You can't use roost with Assault Vest.
Halcyon. said:
Feel like I should respond to this since Greninja obviously isn't a counter to Lando. The point in choosing Greninja is that Lando is very hard to counter with U-turn and packing a counter may not benefit the team as much as you would like due to simple U-turn out and general rock weakness of potential counters. If team 2 is made reasonably offensive then you can limit Landorus switch ins which may in fact counter it better since it can't get in to cause damage. Saccing something to Landorus is not unacceptable in my eyes either if you are instead choosing a wall that may be in fact useless against the rest of team 1 or set up bait for their last pick. Plus team two will no doubt pick up ground immunities etc later on to make playing around it a lot easier. Generally I feel that the more offensive team will be at the advantage due to the odd mix of walls that the teams will potentially have which may overlap some threats and not cover the others adequately, especially for the last pick which will be very dangerous for team 2 if it has gaping holes in defense but lacks the offense to revenge. I mean I like the Dragonite suggestion and it will discourage further special attackers but it just may not be as useful for team 2 in practice as it wants to be. Team 2 does have two picks though so a counter then very offensive pokemon could turn out alright to adequately pressure team one into responding with a defensive pokemon.
Bear in mind I have been playing mainly hyper offense recently so my mind set is probably based more on attacking and saccing to allow for a very threatening team build rather than trying to actively counter the threats - best defense is a good offense etc. This may not be ideal for a project called "counter that pokemon" of course.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 149-177 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Barring a Critical Hit, Suicune can safely switch in, and threaten Landorus with a Scald or set up CMs.
That Suicune is runs max defense. The real calc is,
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery,
which is far less impressive.
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