Yeah, but EP doesn't get that great STAB. Of course, dealing tons of damage isn't the point of a SubRoost set, just enough that you can Pressure stall them. But still, sometimes it has underwhelming power in my opinion.( and I ran LO SubRoost)
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Kingpoleon , well, there's 2 different types of SubRoost Pokemon. Those that are offensive, and those that are defensive. Offensive SubRoost mons want to be able to inflict major damage and possibly outlast their checks and counters just long enough to forcefully remove them. These would include stuff like Talonflame (OU) Staraptor (OU/BL) and Braviary (RU/NU) On the other hand, defensive SubRoost Pokemon typically Pressure stall their checks and counters into becoming totally incapable of doing anything meaningful to them. These would include Zapdos (OU) Moltres (RU) and Kyurem (UU/RU) Notice something they all have in common? Each has a very high Special Attack stat, which means that they don't have to fully invest in Special Attack to dish out enough damage to Pressure stall their checks and counters. All 3 also have underrated bulk that usually goes unnoticed outside of these sets. Zapdos has the added benefit of having a great defensive typing (which is prolly why it's OU) but Moltres and Kyurem can both use SubRoost sets effectively in their respective tiers due to Pressure, solid overall bulk, and good offensive presence in spite of the lack of boosting item.
While I DO get UU is finally constructed, and RU's construction is already underway, here is my most likely to happen theory.
Espeon will drop to UU: Yes, this may seem like a stretch, but XY OU was NOT kind to this thing. The unbanning of two of Deoxys's forms made Espeon face even more competition than it already had. As if Latios, Starmie, and Alakazam, who got a mega, wasn't enough. Also, one word. Aegislash. Its small niche is very hard to notice thanks to Defog's buff, and even then, it still is too frail to use it. However, if Espeon drops to UU, it will find its true home. With a meaty 130 Special Attack, and a new toy in the form of Dazzling Gleam to deal with Dark and Dragon types, Espeon will find its viability home. Being a prime supporter AND Special Attacker, Espeon will turn from facing stiff competition from its fellow psychic types to a monster if it drops to UU. In conclusion, if Espeon does drop to UU, it will be easier to fit onto a team.
Espeon will drop to UU: Yes, this may seem like a stretch, but XY OU was NOT kind to this thing. The unbanning of two of Deoxys's forms made Espeon face even more competition than it already had. As if Latios, Starmie, and Alakazam, who got a mega, wasn't enough. Also, one word. Aegislash. Its small niche is very hard to notice thanks to Defog's buff, and even then, it still is too frail to use it. However, if Espeon drops to UU, it will find its true home. With a meaty 130 Special Attack, and a new toy in the form of Dazzling Gleam to deal with Dark and Dragon types, Espeon will find its viability home. Being a prime supporter AND Special Attacker, Espeon will turn from facing stiff competition from its fellow psychic types to a monster if it drops to UU. In conclusion, if Espeon does drop to UU, it will be easier to fit onto a team.
Aegislash has existed for six months now and Espeon is still strongly in OU (though it may have something to do with Baton Pass teams.) And Espeon, due to Magic Bounce, doesn't really face any competition from other Physic types, whether or not you can think it can effectively use it.
Besides I don't really get the point in theorizing what will and won't drop to UU, especially when it won't have much of an impact on the tier IMO (Espeon was NU in Gen 4 before it got Magic Bounce.) But Volcarona is more likely to drop than Espeon, and I think it'd have a much larger impact on UU than Espeon (if it doesn't get insta-banned.)
Espeon is only usable in OU because of Baton Pass. Without full BP, Espeon is beyond garbage. What will definitely fall, however, are Volcarona, Lucario, and Goodra. The first two of these will be very interesting, to say the least. Volcarona is without any of the many counters that plague it in OU and will be incredibly difficult to stop in UU. Anyway, this is kind of off topic as these changes won't actually happen until stage 2.
Been thinking that Infernape will drop as well. I hope Luke and Volc won't drop as they will get BL'd ASAP by the council probably. Just like Hax and Mence lol
This is probably a pedantic distinction to make, but Haxorus was UU at the tier's inception and didn't go BL until Stage 1.
after i looked at the OU 1760 statslucario had 1.5% usage, volcarona had 2.6%, i can see they dropping. manectric and gardevoir, however, had both 3.5% usage this month, threatening to move up.
just theorymoning, i can already see volcarona being banned. it is actually a great sweeper even in OU, the problem is that it has A LOT of counters there. in UU i can only imagine, from the top of my head, sp.def arcanine. there's probably more, but even then i doubt it'll save volca from the axe.
lucario seems kinda controversial though. SD is extremely powerful, OHKOing pratically anything with close combat and being hard to revenge because of extremespeed, while NP is a special sweeper that beats pretty much all of the special walls (florges, umbreon, aggron, snorlax, etc); and with both sets being really dangerous, it'd be almost like a coinflip and he might emulate mega lucario in OU. however, with those defenses it really isn't that easy for he setup, and it might (i said might) be possible to beat it with prankster WoW from sableye/mega banette, scarf users that can take extremespeed or vaccuum wave like chandelure.
just theorymoning, i can already see volcarona being banned. it is actually a great sweeper even in OU, the problem is that it has A LOT of counters there. in UU i can only imagine, from the top of my head, sp.def arcanine. there's probably more, but even then i doubt it'll save volca from the axe.
lucario seems kinda controversial though. SD is extremely powerful, OHKOing pratically anything with close combat and being hard to revenge because of extremespeed, while NP is a special sweeper that beats pretty much all of the special walls (florges, umbreon, aggron, snorlax, etc); and with both sets being really dangerous, it'd be almost like a coinflip and he might emulate mega lucario in OU. however, with those defenses it really isn't that easy for he setup, and it might (i said might) be possible to beat it with prankster WoW from sableye/mega banette, scarf users that can take extremespeed or vaccuum wave like chandelure.
While I'm not a fan of Mega-Gard I do see MManetric as actually moving up in ranks since I always felt he was a mon that people had sat on simply because of how dominating MKhan/MLuke had been in monopolizing the mega-stats for some time. Considering that MManetric is a fantastic check to some physical mons, particularly MPinsir/Talonflame, as well as a nifty revenge killer I'm honestly not surprised if he did move up now that people are giving other mega forms a chance.
I think if either drop, both will end up getting banned. The way I see it, I would rather have Lucario or Volc over Haxarous, Zone, or Hydra, yet they all got the boot to BL. I want those mons to come to force a more offensive meta (Right now, bulky teams dominate imo), but who knows!
Lucario would definitely be an interesting addition to UU and would probably shake-up the metagame quite a lot, though I'm not sure how tier-breaking it would be. Would need to see that one in practice.
And Volcarona would almost definitely be too hard for UU to handle and wouldn't see that sticking around for long.
And Volcarona would almost definitely be too hard for UU to handle and wouldn't see that sticking around for long.
Probably not, since Baton Pass is only used on about 25% of Espeon right now.
You do realize that baton pass/stored power/ calm mind/ sub is the best moveset on espeon and that a posible nerf/ban to the move will drop espeon's usage?
Of course I do, but most Espeon users use it outside of BP teams, even though it's completely unviable.
Edit : According to the 1760 stats, Baton Pass is actually used on around 50% of Espeon, so if these stats are used, it might drop after all.
Espeon does other things other than Baton Pass too. Anyway, it's still not confimed as to whether OU is going to suspect Baton Pass (though personally I think it's pretty stupid to even consider suspecting it).
That said, I think Volcarona would be a really scary as shit drop. Volc was already a top tier sweeper last gen and the only reason he's bad this gen is due to Talonflame. While Florges can do a somewhat decent job at tanking hits, Moonblast hits like a pussy and is an automatic loss to substitute variants. The only other hope left is Goodra, another possible drop from OU, who would be a decent counter to Volcarona at least (does this shit get Surf? I know it has Muddy Water but I'm not sure about Surf)
That said, I think Volcarona would be a really scary as shit drop. Volc was already a top tier sweeper last gen and the only reason he's bad this gen is due to Talonflame. While Florges can do a somewhat decent job at tanking hits, Moonblast hits like a pussy and is an automatic loss to substitute variants. The only other hope left is Goodra, another possible drop from OU, who would be a decent counter to Volcarona at least (does this shit get Surf? I know it has Muddy Water but I'm not sure about Surf)
TM13IceBeam It doesn't get Surf, which is dumb because you literally evolve it in the rain...
Goodra would be an interesting drop but I can see Volcarona being pretty broken. The only "stop" to it would be SpDef Suicune, who could Roar it out, but Scald will not break a Sub if it begins boosting, and then the rest is just you watching a 6-0 because this thing resists Mach Punch, can live a Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and even Extreme Speed are pretty rare.
Goodra would be an interesting drop but I can see Volcarona being pretty broken. The only "stop" to it would be SpDef Suicune, who could Roar it out, but Scald will not break a Sub if it begins boosting, and then the rest is just you watching a 6-0 because this thing resists Mach Punch, can live a Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and even Extreme Speed are pretty rare.
Goodra doesn't have Surf but it does have Dragon Tail. And as bulky as it is, it's still 2HKOed by +1 Bug Buzz (unless you're using Assault Vest, which is IMO a shitty set) so it's only phazing it once.
What's so bad about AV Goodra? What would you do besides a bad Rain Dance + Rest strategy (Curse? Fun but Florges is everywhere)
Assault Vest Goodra is the best set, imo. You last twice as long, and then you can invest in Sp. Atk instead of Sp. Def, making it a Special Powerhouse. You forgo Leftovers, but it's worth it to buff it's spectacular Sp. Def. It would be a fantastic addition to UU, I believe it could thrive here better than in OU.
AV Goodra exemplifies the issue I have with AV sets in general: lack of recovery. As a tank Goodra will have to come in often to absorb hits, which means he is taking damage from both hazards and Pokémon at the same time. While you can still solve this with a Wish-passer, common picks for UU wish-passing (Umbreon, Florges, Vaporeon) tend to be specially inclined in their defences (Vaporeon invests heavily into physical defense though).
I suppose a Granbull/Goodra defensive core might be interesting though, but honestly at the end of the day I'd prefer things like AV Slowbro who can tank hits decently while having Regenerator to compensate for the loss of Slack Off and Leftovers.
I suppose a Granbull/Goodra defensive core might be interesting though, but honestly at the end of the day I'd prefer things like AV Slowbro who can tank hits decently while having Regenerator to compensate for the loss of Slack Off and Leftovers.
I don't understand why people have this retarted idea burned into their brains that you can slap an Assault Vest on anything considered slightly bulky and call it a day, especially in this tier. I mean, Slowbro and Tangrowth are acceptable because they have Regenerator to regain health, but it doesn't work on a lot of other pokes, with the exception of Snorlax, Meta, and Escavalier. With Goodra, sure, you're boosting your already high special defense to new heights, but the fact that it's easy to wear down from the physical side with 70 base defense, forces you to run a Wishpasser, and like IceBeam said, the only one that really likes taking powerful physical hits is Vape.
While I understand your views on AV, I believe that the lack of recovery moves for Goodra, coupled with it's great offensive move pool, make Goodra a great AV user. Giving up Leftovers recovery, while making it's 150 Sp. Def into a whopping 225 Sp. Def, makes it a great special wall, imo.
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