CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Albacore]

We need to threaten pokemon like Gengar and Keldeo though, they dont give a crap about either of our stabs or sludge bomb

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic CAP Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 170-200 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (25% chance to OHKO after Life Orb damage)

In fact, Keldeo cannot safely switch into Hydro Pump or Sludge Bomb either, so it's far from being a safe counter. And although Keldeo+Aegi is a threat to the core, Keldeo was still included on the list of Pokemon that need to threaten us, so we probably shouldn't try to win against it on an 1v1 basis. Not being countered by Keldeo is more than enough, and that's pretty much guaranteed.

That being said, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to Psychic-type coverage, since it would let the core beat Mega-Venusaur without having to give Psyshock to Latias. This would give it the option of using Thunderbolt instead, which lets us get past bulky Waters more easily. It also wouldn't threaten much else, so I don't think it would make the CAP too powerful

 

[FMD]

Not much is really threatened by Psychic. In fact, Chansey isn't even threatened by Psyshock and neither is Blissey, only taking marginally more damage than from our main STABS.

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Abomasnow Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 220-259 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 72.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Abomasnow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-260 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO

Psychic added to our movepool wouldn't affect much at all and Psyshock really only hurts Goodra as a counter. I feel that Psychic should be allowed, but Psyshock is VERY risky and needs more consideration.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Not much is really threatened by Psychic. In fact, Chansey isn't even threatened by Psyshock and neither is Blissey, only taking marginally more damage than from our main STABS.


Psychic added to our movepool wouldn't affect much at all and Psyshock really only hurts Goodra as a counter. I feel that Psychic should be allowed, but Psyshock is VERY risky and needs more consideration.

Yeah I wasn't considering giving it Psyshock anyways

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic CAP Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 170-200 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (25% chance to OHKO after Life Orb damage)

In fact, Keldeo cannot safely switch into Hydro Pump or Sludge Bomb either, so it's far from being a safe counter. And although Keldeo+Aegi is a threat to the core, Keldeo was still included on the list of Pokemon that need to threaten us, so we probably shouldn't try to win against it on an 1v1 basis. Not being countered by Keldeo is more than enough, and that's pretty much guaranteed.

That being said, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to Psychic-type coverage, since it would let the core beat Mega-Venusaur without having to give Psyshock to Latias. This would give it the option of using Thunderbolt instead, which lets us get past bulky Waters more easily. It also wouldn't threaten much else, so I don't think it would make the CAP too powerful

Actually, it was said that it wouldn't be safe to let Keldeo counter us. Besides Keldeo is going to win 1v1 anyways, even with Psychic. But nice point on the Thunderbolt thing

 

[Yoshuriken]

Knock Off
Knock Off won't be doing much damage of our pitiful base 45 attack stat, but cripples several of our counters, especially Chansey and Goodra. The ability to Knock Off a vital item from a counter when it switches in and then switch out before they can touch us is bad. Chansey even could be crippled without prediction, since it only gets Seismic Toss for damage. The mere fact that existing in the movepool would make Chansey afraid to switch in makes it even worse. A counter should not be afraid to switch in. Enough said.

Grass Knot
Well, Grass Knot itself may or may not be a problem. As was said, it doesn't hurt more than HP Grass most of the time. But as Alexwolf pointed out, it lets us use a different HP at the same time. We really want to restrict our coverage as much as possible with this thing, so I think limiting grass attacks to HP is the way to go.

Psychic
The only things on the list that this move matters to are Gengar (but not really, he's so frail) and Keldeo. If we give it Sludge Wave, we can do 51.3% minimum with Modest and no boosting item. Thus, Psychic becomes unnecessary. However, since it won't do much, it probably doesn't matter if it's in. Tbh I don't really care about Psychic. It could be nice to have, but certainly not necessary.

Tl;dr: Disallow Knock Off and Grass Knot, allow Psychic.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah I wasn't considering giving it Psyshock anyways

Actually, it was said that it wouldn't be safe to let Keldeo counter us. Besides Keldeo is going to win 1v1 anyways, even with Psychic. But nice point on the Thunderbolt thing

How is Keldeo going to win 1 v 1 when:

• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 314-370 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keldeo is almost always OHKOed by Psychic without any boosting item, while Choice Specs Keldeo can't even OHKO us reliably after SR with max HP, in fact, it can only OHKO us 25% of the time with Hydro Pump's accuracy factored in. And i really don't get at all why we need Psychic for Keldeo when we already have the option for Hidden Power Grass, which 2HKOes easily even without any boosting item, while even the strongest Keldeo set can't OHKO max HP CAP after SR and 1 round of Lefties. Hell, you don't even need Hidden Power Grass, did you know that Fire Blast / Hydro Pump 2HKO Keldeo without any boosting item after SR the majority of the time (79.3% of the time). What does this mean? Specs Keldeo can't even check the CAP if the CAP hasn't already lost ~30% of its health, as the CAP can 2HKO Keldeo with no prediction or coverage moves needed at all. And you say we need Psychic for Keldeo.... Come on.

As for Mega Venusaur, i don't get why the CAP needs to be able to 2HKO it even without Analytic boosted attacks. Psyshock is a staple on Latias and and why would you want to give it up? For non STAB Psychic on the CAP, which has little to zero use? This makes no sense. Latias's best set is Draco Meteor + Psyshock + Thunderbolt + Defog anyway, so Mega Venusaur is not a problem at all. It can't switch into the CAP or Latias, it is checked by Latias, and even Iron Tail Lucario can get past it.

tl;dr there is zero need for any kind of Psychic coverage.

EDIT: All calcs were done using the CAP's typing and stats, i just used Heatran as a base.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

How is Keldeo going to win 1 v 1 when:

• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 314-370 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keldeo is almost always OHKOed by Psychic without any boosting item, while Choice Specs Keldeo can't even OHKO us reliably after SR with max HP, in fact, it can only OHKO us 25% of the time with Hydro Pump's accuracy factored in. And i really don't get at all why we need Psychic for Keldeo when we already have the option for Hidden Power Grass, which 2HKOes easily even without any boosting item, while even the strongest Keldeo set can't OHKO max HP CAP after SR and 1 round of Lefties. Hell, you don't even need Hidden Power Grass, did you know that Fire Blast / Hydro Pump 2HKO Keldeo without any boosting item after SR the majority of the time (79.3% of the time). What does this mean? Specs Keldeo can't even check the CAP if the CAP hasn't already lost ~30% of its health, as the CAP can 2HKO Keldeo with no prediction or coverage moves needed at all. And you say we need Psychic for Keldeo.... Come on.

As for Mega Venusaur, i don't get why the CAP needs to be able to 2HKO it even without Analytic boosted attacks. Psyshock is a staple on Latias and and why would you want to give it up? For non STAB Psychic on the CAP, which has little to zero use? This makes no sense. Latias's best set is Draco Meteor + Psyshock + Thunderbolt + Defog anyway, so Mega Venusaur is not a problem at all. It can't switch into the CAP or Latias, it is checked by Latias, and even Iron Tail Lucario can get past it.

tl;dr there is zero need for any kind of Psychic coverage.

Well now I see what you mean, I was taking into account Yayz's calculation, which I assumed was true. Now I can see why its not needed but I dont see why it shouldn't be allowed if it doesnt do anything.

 

[CJorex]

How is Keldeo going to win 1 v 1 when:

• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 314-370 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keldeo is almost always OHKOed by Psychic without any boosting item, while Choice Specs Keldeo can't even OHKO us reliably after SR with max HP, in fact, it can only OHKO us 25% of the time with Hydro Pump's accuracy factored in. And i really don't get at all why we need Psychic for Keldeo when we already have the option for Hidden Power Grass, which 2HKOes easily even without any boosting item, while even the strongest Keldeo set can't OHKO max HP CAP after SR and 1 round of Lefties. Hell, you don't even need Hidden Power Grass, did you know that Fire Blast / Hydro Pump 2HKO Keldeo without any boosting item after SR the majority of the time (79.3% of the time). What does this mean? Specs Keldeo can't even check the CAP if the CAP hasn't already lost ~30% of its health, as the CAP can 2HKO Keldeo with no prediction or coverage moves needed at all. And you say we need Psychic for Keldeo.... Come on.

As for Mega Venusaur, i don't get why the CAP needs to be able to 2HKO it even without Analytic boosted attacks. Psyshock is a staple on Latias and and why would you want to give it up? For non STAB Psychic on the CAP, which has little to zero use? This makes no sense. Latias's best set is Draco Meteor + Psyshock + Thunderbolt + Defog anyway, so Mega Venusaur is not a problem at all. It can't switch into the CAP or Latias, it is checked by Latias, and even Iron Tail Lucario can get past it.

tl;dr there is zero need for any kind of Psychic coverage.

Might want to revise those Secret Sword calculations, given that you used Heatran, who is weak to Fighting, while CAP18 is neutral

 

[V4LOVER]

Might want to revise those Secret Sword calculations, given that you used Heatran, who is weak to Fighting, while CAP18 is neutral

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP18: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Might want to revise those Secret Sword calculations, given that you used Heatran, who is weak to Fighting, while CAP18 is neutral

He probably changed the typing. But yeah when making calcs I would recommend to use Volcanion since you dont need to change typing.

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP18: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

You forgot the choice specs, I can see why we dont need Psychic so dont argue with me on that. I'm just nitpicking

 

[EternalSnowman]

Just wanna say right now, Latias can run Ice Beam in this core to deal with threats such as Non-Scarfed Garchomp, Landorus-Therian and ToxicStall Gliscor. Psychic on CAP18 could be useful over Psyshock on Latias (On perhaps like Specs 4Attacks Set). Even if it has little use on CAP18 there is no reason NOT to give it to it. It could be run on a niche set i guess.

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, so the perceptive among you might have noted that I have updated the initial list in the OP. Quick summary of changes and the basic reasons why are as follows.

Dragon / Ice / Fairy / Dark / Bug / Ghost coverage I decided to disallow (for now), simply because I wanted to avoid giving this CAP coverage options that it could use against Lati@s. I could still be swayed to allow specific moves of these typings provided they are backed up by calculations that show that these moves do not overtly impact on our checks and counters list.

Water Spout and Eruption I disallowed, they were obviously too strong.

Volt Switch was just a free move, with no downsides. There was nothing stopping this cap spamming analytic Volt Switch, always getting a favourable matchup (as well as solid damage against pretty much everything) with little active counterplay against this. The fact that it also ruined Rotom-W was really just a nail in the coffin.

I disallowed Knock Off because it just ruins Chansey / Blissey in practise, and just seems to go against the spirit of the Checks and Counters list we have.

On Grass Knot: Everyone's had a long chance to think about this, and I want a little more discussion before making a final decision. Recently, the Hidden Power Grass vs Grass Knot argument was brought up, which is a solid reason to remove Grass Knot, but ill leave it where it is just in case anyone feels like making some strong arguments to keep Grass Knot.

Psyshock: Wanted more discussion on this since I am not in favour, but I know that a few people seem to want to push for this move, and thus want to see arguments on this.

Poison / Steel Coverage: Still wanting more discussion on this, as it seems fairly split and its far too early to be making a decision as to where it should be sitting.

Also as a general note, if people want to nominate / submit individual moves for discussion, you are utterly welcome to.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I dont see much of a problem with psyshock, non of the pokemon that we are trying to get threatend by really care about getting hit by psyshock as seen here (Replace Volcanion with CAP18, I changed the stats already)

252+ SpA CAP18 Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 130-154 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 179-211 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(To those of you who think this is a lot, check this out:
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

 

[jas61292]

I dont see much of a problem with psyshock, non of the pokemon that we are trying to get threatend by really care about getting hit by psyshock as seen here (Replace Volcanion with CAP18, I changed the stats already)

252+ SpA CAP18 Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 130-154 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 179-211 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(To those of you who think this is a lot, check this out:
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

The problem here is you are ignoring items. It won't make much of a difference for Chansey or Blissey, but on Goodra, with Lefties it fails to 2HKO the majority of the time, and since we outspeed, that means 72% of the time Goodra loses to us. On the other hand, say we run a boosting item:

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 172-203 (44.7 - 52.8%)

As you can see that is a 2HKO on the switch in. It never even gets an attack off. Obviously Specs would do even more.

My concern with Psyshock is simply that it can only do harm without really doing anything we care about positively. We don't really need to hit Fighting or Poison types, as we have Latias for that. And hitting on the physical side only really helps against the walls we specifically want to lose to. It wouldn't be the worst move ever to allow, but I just don't see any reason to, and so I think it should be disallowed.

As for some of the other things up for discussion right now, I am a big fan of both Poison and Steel coverage. I don't think either does too much, and both really only target things we want to target. While Poison does give a hit on water types, it really don't hit that much harder than our STABS. There are very few KOs that it will actually help nab that are not already achieved. For example, SpD Rotom-W is 3HKOd by both Fire Blast and Sludge Bomb from 252+ Specs CAP18. The only real advantage it provides is the poison chance, and that is a reasonable bonus for risking a less spammable move on a likely switch. The main bonuses of Poison moves are almost entirely contained to possibly OHKOing Azumarill, which is a good thing.

Steel on the other hand is entirely useless, which is why it should be fine to allow. Fire Blast or Hydro Pump hit every Pokemon in the game harder than Flash Cannon. There is no benefit, so there is no reason to disallow.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Grass Knot is largely non-competitive. Its only function is to hit Keldeo and Mega Gyarados harder than or as hard as Hidden Power Grass while doing pittance to Rotom-W. I'd still call Grass Knot dangerous to the concept for how well it does against Keldeo, and I believe CAP18 should have problems with Mega Gyarados outside of Will-O-Wisp because of its typing. A Burned Mega Gyarados can serve as emergency setup bait for Lucario (Adamant Burned Earthquake vs.4/0 Luke = 64.5 - 76.5%) as well, so outright killing it might not be the best option for this core. Since Mega Gyarados was not identified as a threat or a Pokemon we need to threaten, it can be up to interpretation on whether or not we would like to do so. I believe using Grass Knot only for Keldeo and Mega Gyarados is not necessary and barely competitive, so Grass Knot for Disallowed.

U-Turn's interesting given the perspective our CAP would use it from. The offensive power of U-Turn is largely negligible, although hitting Latias and Latios for nearly 30% on the switch is a bit alarming. However, I believe that is not too much damage to overly threaten Latias and Latios, especially since the other two members of our core cannot set up on the two. CAP18 does lure in Keldeo (which Latias switches in on) and Chansey (which Lucario sets up on), which would be punished by U-Turn. Allow U-Turn

Overheat is over the top. Overheat lets us do severe damage to Latios, OHKOing it about half the time after Stealth Rock and a round of Life Orb damage if we're holding Choice Specs. Note that Latios doesn't always run Roost, so blasting through Latios with Overheat really shouldn't be on the table. Although Overheat is largely outclassed by Fire Blast on CAP18, it could possibly see usage on Specs sets along with Fire Blast since Specs CAP18 is likely going to be a one-turn hit-and-run Pokemon. This is the sort of power that we're talking about with Overheat:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 215-253 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 195-231 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-219 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 169-200 (55.9 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, they might be able to Roost off the damage if they carry it, but Latios shouldn't have to have 80% of its health in order to counter CAP18 and Latias shouldn't need 70%. I'm already concerned Fire Blast is too powerful, and Overheat just magnifies those concerns. Disallow Overheat.

Knock Off. If we want to be checked by Chansey, we can't destroy its Eviolite. Disallow Knock Off.

 

[ganj4lF]

I didn't posted before because I share the opinion of most of you on Dragon / Ice / Fairy / Dark / Bug / Ghost coverage (which was already disallowed, so no point discussing those again). Besides that, I think the only kind of converage that should be allowed is Steel. Steel is basically useless since a neutral Fire Blast / Hydro Pump deals more damage than a SE Flash Cannon, so there's absolutely no harm in allowing Steel coverage whatsoever. Psychic coverage is to be disallowed, since we basically don't need it; Keldeo takes already a ton of damage from a resisted STAB on the switch, and there's no reason to stay in as long as Latias is healthy, so I don't think we should allow it (ESPECIALLY Psyshock, that carries the risk of destroying random special walls that do not have the mixed bulk of Chansey). Killing M-Venusaur is kinda pointless as Latias already deals with it OK-ish, and we will be able to WoW it or U-Turn (if it ends up allowed), so we are not completely useless on the switch. Poison coverage should be disallowed too: I guess hitting Faeries is a good case for it to be included, but it allows us to deal with Water types much better than we should be able to. Yeah, it only hits marginally harder than a neutral STAB, but I don't see the need of it; it also allows one to go for the safest STAB option (like Flamethrower or Scald) and still be able to decimate Waters on the switch thanks to the neutral coverage on them (as opposed to needing the more powerful STAB to dent them with raw power alone). Grass-type coverage is to be disallowed too: I think alexwolf's reasoning is on point here on the fact that we don't want CAP18 to have too many options opened for HP; if it wants to hit Waters, cool, it can use its Hidden Power to do so. On U-Turn, I dislike giving it to CAP18, however it works very well to bring in Lucario on things it can set up on, and cannot be that harmful regardless (pitiful Atk, and we are giving up an opportinity to hit with a super strong Analytic-boosted attack, so I guess the cons balance quite nicely the pros). Therefore allow U-Turn.

EDIT: disallow Overheat; it's marginally weaker than the already excluded Water Spout and Eruption, and it doesn't weaken if switching into SR or taking chip damage otherwise. CAP18 is a pivot, so by nature it switches in and out frequently, negating much of the drawback of the move. We already have the tools to deal with the things we need to threaten, and we don't need a way to incinerate things like Latios on the switch-in (as DLC's calcs outline).

 

[Deck Knight]

Just a few notes, since most people have covered what I want to cover.

All STAB options up through 110 BP: Allowed.
We spent the first several threads talking about how we need to threaten offensively. Lets not get off that track now by going overboard on doing too much to, say, Offensive LO Latias. I've made it no secret that I've ignored specific sets for the core, so boo hockey if we're using the defensive Lati with no defensive investment and it's running afoul of item-boosted STAB attacks. What's the difference between Latias and Aegislash's defenses? Not that much. 60/150 (Shield) vs 80/130 (Latias).

Allow Overheat:
Overheat gains maximum benefit from Analytic, and the fact our Pokemon is such a powerful special attacker means that Pokemon banking on resistances without bulk like Latios to switch in aren't wise counters, even if they are effective checks. Overheat eases the pressure on running a boosting item like Life Orb in favor of Leftovers, which makes the core more durable.

Poison Coverage: Allowed.

Azumarill is still a nuisance to the core, and Poison is the least problematic coverage type to address it. Poison also allows us to deal with most of the other fairies, bar Mawile and Klefki which get obliterated by Fire-STAB.

Steel Coverage: Allowed. Steel is basically harmless and literally redundant with STABs. There is literally nothing that Flash Cannon can hit harder than Fire Blast (SE on Ice) or Hydro Pump (SE on Rock).

One thing that oddly hasn't been mentioned yet is special Flying-type coverage. Given thar Keldeo isn't really sturdy enough to take a neutral hit, I'd like to suggest Air Slash for allowed. I think Hurricane is a bit too strong for the purpose we need it for, but basically Flying coverage lets us target Venusaur more reliably, and if it is burned then the flinch chance can eliminate one of its chances to heal. Additionally, Air Slash doesn't do that much against the opponents we want to counter us, either.

In general I'm opposed to Psyshock since it has more utility against the blobs, but I'm generally not opposed to Psychic.

 

[vyomov]

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP 18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 340-402 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Based on this calc, I would like to recommend that we disallow Focus Blast - it's OP in combination with Specs + Modest, which is possible on CAP 18(although unlikely)

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP 18 Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 226-268 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As can be seen, even with SpA maxed out and damage maxed out, Aura Sphere really isn't a problem since it can't do much to Blissey/Chansey, while they can stall out CAP 18. Aura Sphere also doesn't really hurt bulky waters/Goodra, so I feel Aura Sphere should be allowed.

 

[Burt Racecar]

The only good thing about Poison/Steel coverage when talking about beating fairies is that they have 100% accuracy compared to Fire Blast giving us a more reliable way of beating them.

Again, I prefer Flash Cannon, simply because it does make CAP18s water threats more capable of threatening us, thereby sticking to the concept. Rotom-W and Keldeo would x4 resist this instead of being hit neutrally. We already threaten Azumarill with burn capabilities and when CAP18 can easily carry HP electric/grass, so I see no need to choose poison coverage over steel coverage just for Azumarill. The only downside is that Flash Cannon is unresisted by the bulky dragon threats, i.e. Lati@s.

Also for those talking about flavour, I understand where you're coming from with the ink business, but there is also equal flavour in flash cannon, namely because Vampire Squids are bio-luminescent.

And for set up sweepers that we may have problems with, we can handle this at the support movepool stage, or we have the option of Clear Smog.

tldr:
Allow Steel Coverage. (water-types resist this)
Disallow Poison Coverage (water-types don't resist this)
Allow Clear Smog (niche move for dealing with set-up sweepers)

EDIT: For those discussing Keldeo, he's actually meant to threaten CAP18.. we don't want to deal with him.

 

[alexwolf]

It's true that while Flash Cannon gives nothing over Fire Blast / Hydro Pump in terms of power, is has perfect accuracy for those that don't like relying on 85% accuracy, so i see nothing wrong with allowing it. Allow Flash Cannon and any weaker Steel-type coverage.

Disallow Psyshock. It does too much damage vs Goodra, basically removing it as a check because we can 3HKO it as it switches in, while it can't 2HKO back after Lefties. It also does too much damage against Keldeo and Blissey (252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Heatran Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 48.5 - 57.2%), which is bad as they are supposed to check and counter us respectively.

I agree with vyomov that Focus Blast hits Blissey and Chansey too hard, as well as decimating Water-types neutral to it, such as Keldeo and Rotom-W, but Aura Sphere covers nothing relevant other than Mega Gyarados and Gyarados always has the option to not MEvolve immediately anyway, so it's fine. Allow Aura Sphere and disallow Focus Blast.

I don't really care about Flying-type coverage that is not named Hurricane, as it's only really useful against Keldeo, which is not enough to make it worth using when you can already 2HKO Keldeo on the switch with your STABs and SR up. So i guess, allow Air Slash and any weaker Flying-type coverage, but disallow Hurricane, it fucks up Keldeo and other Water-types and Dragon-types, such as Suicune and Latios, too much.

Finally, insisting that Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave should be disallowed for hitting Water-types a bit too hard than we should, but Clear Smog should be allowed, to check Calm Mind Clefable and Belly Drum Azumarill (not that the CAP would actually use it, but it has some super niche use).

 

[Yoshuriken]

Allow Steel coverage. Gives us a method to beating fairies that can't be pp/heal stalled like Fire Blast would be. Definitely a good thing to have.

Allow Aura Sphere and weaker. It's the same base power as Flash Cannon, and hits none of our checks/counters super effectively, so it carries little risk.

Allow Power Gem. Again, the same power as Flash Cannon, and only cover Mega Charizard Y and Gyarados before it MEvolves. Since non-mega Gyarados is identified as something we want CAP to beat, and it hits so little, allowing Power Gem should be fine.

Disallow Flying coverage. this doesn't do anything to the things we want to threaten, but it does OHKO Keldeo with Modes Life Orb every time. That's way overkill, especially for a move that doesn't help our concept. This move should go.

Disallow psychic coverage. This OHKOs Keldeo with Modest Lefties most of the time. It's even more overkill than flying coverage. This is actually a reversal from my last post. After thinking about it more, yeah it doesn't do much, but what it does do we don't want CAP to do.

Allow Sludge Wave. The benefit SW has over Flash Cannon is being able to 2HKO SpDef Sylveon with Choice Specs. The disadvantage is being able to 2HKO SpDef Rotom-W with Choice Specs and Analytic both times. This is rather unlikely. Also, since being locked into a Poison move is highly exploitable by your opponent, if a Rotom is caught by surprise, it can just switch to a Steel. I definitely won't complain if it ends up disallowed, but I feel it shouldn't be.

 

[vyomov]

Regarding Poison-type coverage, I have a suggestion: allow Venoshock
Venoshock does nothing against Rotom-W or any other bulky waters, but allows CAP18 to reliably hit Azumarill:
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Whereas
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Rotom-W can just Pain Split off the damage or hit for SE STAB, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Regarding Poison-type coverage, I have a suggestion: allow Venoshock
Venoshock does nothing against Rotom-W or any other bulky waters, but allows CAP18 to reliably hit Azumarill:
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Whereas
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Rotom-W can just Pain Split off the damage or hit for SE STAB, so it doesn't really matter.

Venoshock's BP Doubles when used against pokemon who are poisoned though, so in reality can does this:

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

If this wasnt bad enough, check out what happens if we somehow get a Analytic Boost

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP18 Venoshock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

While it doesn't say it for some reason, that actually has potential to OHKO Rotom (Unless they go for Volt Switch but then they could be in the range where SR kills them)

IMO that is way to much damage, so Disallow Venoshock

Overheat really is not much of a problem, most of our checks and counters resist it and the ones that dont can take that much damage from it, as shown here

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 229-271 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO

If you think this is a lot remeber 3 things

1: This was with the maxed out Special Attack, its impossible to go higher
2: Overheat decreases your Special Attack by 2 stages
3: Both of these pokes can easily heal this damage up

So yeah, Allow Overheat

Grass Knot does to much damage to bulky water types that are not named Rotom, while I really dont care about Keldeo being countered, I dont want other bulky waters to be countered

252+ SpA Volcanion Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 560-660 (142.1 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Disallow Grass Knot

 

[farmer Potato]

I personally agree with Power Gem, as it allows CAP18 to crush Volcarona, Zard Y, and Talonflame. These three are all threats, to some extent.

To hit Mawile, Fire Blast is a good stab move, and it poses no threat to what needs to counter CAP18. This also allows the CAP to hit Aegislash, Scizor, and Foretress.

An important threat that needs to be looked at is Azumarill, which must be checked, not countered, such that no other waters that must counter or check CAP are harmed.

Medium powered poison moves, like Sludge Wave allow CAP to ensure protection against Azumarill switch-ins, while not harming any other bulky waters or bulky Pokemon in general. This also acts to decently check other fairies. The low Poison chance, which is why I did not choose Sludge Bomb, ensures that hax will not interfere against his counters as much.

Edit:

My opinion is that ghost coverage remain disallowed.

On something with 135 Special Attack, HP Ghost does more than enough to stop Gengar, the only unaccounted threat.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Allow Steel Special Coverage, mainly Flash cannon, because it's threatening Fairy-types keeping a good precision, and being stronger than flamethrower, lava plume, surf and scald(many people don't like missing moves like hydro pump and fire blast, and scald/lava plume keeps some utility).

Disallow Poison Special Coverage with great power, as people said before, it's a real threat for Rotom-W or other mons switching in because of its good coverage, besides the poisining chance is very dangerous for them. I also agree with Alexwolf on the fact that Clear Smog should be allowed.

Disallow Focus Blast, as it can possibly 2HKO Blissey (sorry I don't have the calcs) with the help of some Hazards and Analytic boost, and if it can do that, it also can do great damage against Rotom-W. However, Aurasphere can be allowed, as it is far too weak to threaten anything.

Allow Power Gem/Ancient Power/Paleo Wave lol/any Rock Special Coverage, it can become usefull against some threats, mainly Charizard-Y or Volcarona to a lesser extent.

Finally, I think we could Earth Power as a great way to handle Heatran (it's stronger than surf/scald), moreover Latios/Latias/Rotom are all immune to it, and Mud Bomb/Octazooka because it fits well with him lol

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I just realised that we are not supposed to be an ultra reliable threat to Azumarill, and since Poison does a lot to water types I say Disallow Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave and Allow Steel Type Coverage. Also for the nice niche Allow Clear Smog

I would also like to Disallow Fiery Dance. Not only does this move remove the one thing that makes me think Overheat will not be OP, but it also gives us way to much Special attacking power

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 279-329 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 204-242 (67.5 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 304-359 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, and thats just at +1