CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Ramplestilskin]

But the primary reason why we consider Clear Smog here is because it's a Poison move, being super effective against fairy types we want to take care of, so the damage output is somewhat important. I don't think Haze would have the same impact, for instance.

 

[V4LOVER]

But the primary reason why we consider Clear Smog here is because it's a Poison move, being super effective against fairy types we want to take care of, so the damage output is somewhat important. I don't think Haze would have the same impact, for instance.

Clear Smog's power is so low that outside of the stat-removal effect, it's useless compared to Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, or even Flash Cannon.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Finally, insisting that Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave should be disallowed for hitting Water-types a bit too hard than we should, but Clear Smog should be allowed, to check Calm Mind Clefable and Belly Drum Azumarill (not that the CAP would actually use it, but it has some super niche use).

I agree with Alexwolf and he explained well the purpose of Clear Smog. I think the main asset of Clear smog is taking care of Clefable. I don't say that I would run it, but it can be usefull, while Haze isn't.

 

[Scoopapa]

DLC made some good points about Poison moves but I can't help but notice that his entire evaluation of their benefits was based on calcs with Choice Specs. Was there an IRC conversation where Choice Specs became the set we were planning for (and if that's the case why is Will-o-Wisp being cited as an alternative to some attacks)? I totally respect this possibility, but if it's not the case then I'm not willing to accept that conclusion a priori. (and I say this because the majority of the thread is assuming Specs in their calcs, not just DLC's latest post)

Without Specs, though, it's very difficult to get past Sylveon or Togekiss, and Belly Drum Azumarill beats us 1v1 despite WoW. The potential to spam Sludge Bomb for heavy damage and status lets us prevent SpD Fairies from stalling our attacks and scouting for misses. If the drawbacks of these Poison moves are minor enough that weighing drawbacks vs. benefits is worthwhile, then we need to consider these benefits, as well.

I also don't think we are considering enough what will happen the turn after you reveal you are locked into a choiced Poison move, and all of the Ground- and Steel-types we are supposed to deal with come in and do the dirty things they do to the rest of our core. So is that bad for the concept, or just bad for the player choosing Sludge Bomb/Wave (hint: I am about to argue for the latter). Just because CAP18 can kill Latios with Specs non-STAB Poison moves doesn't make CAP18 into a reliable Latios killer. The momentum-killing effects of non-STAB choice Poison will assure this. This "role" of potentially beating Latios isn't going to override the synergy that is already in place with our core. If Latios defogs, takes CAP18 to a sliver of it's health, dies, and is replaced by a Ground- or Steel-type, then Latios did it's job and CAP18 did not. Your core is left with the problematic mons, and you only killed something that doesn't really hinder Latias and Lucario. You just aren't going to say "I can maybe kill Latios with CAP18 with a risky play, I guess I don't want to use Lucario and Latias with it anymore". Even with Poison moves in your moveset, you are almost always going to spam STABs with your finite wallbreaking opportunities. This is a case where if the Poison move actually works out in your favor, you are probably outplaying your opponent.

About Latios, if we are assuming it is switching into Stealth Rock, it only fair to assume that we are as well. Life Orb Draco Meteor has a 50% chance to KO max HP CAP18 after SR, and Thunderbolt will always KO 0 HP CAP18 after SR. So switching in on Defog and defeating it isn't actually that easy.

Beating Latios in a manner that doesn't quite work against Latias can be nice for our core, anyway, if we want to promote Latias/Lucario/CAP18 and not Latios/Lucario/CAP18.

I'm still leaning towards Allow Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave.

 

[FMD]

Even Sludge would be out-damaged by Fire Blast or Hydro Pump in all cases except Azumarill. We cannot claim a move that's 2/3 as powerful as it as a viable source of coverage because it will just never be one. We can go ahead and discuss the merits of Clear Smog, but DO NOT even try to pretend we're looking at it because of its damage or coverage.

 

[Yoshuriken]

Finally, I don't know if it is usefull to specify that we should Disallow the following moves : Magma Storm, Searing shot, Blue flare(unfortunately ): ), V-create and Fusion flare, but if it is, it's done ^^. These are all signature moves, too strong for a CAP. Now the last Fire Special move is Mystical fire and, well, I don't really know what to do with it (btw I don't really know if it is a competitive move).

Legendary signature moves are disallowed automatically, as seen here. Mystical Fire is at least a restricted move. Personally, I see no reason not to allow it, (except perhaps from a flavor standpoint), as it is rather weak. The secondary effect has utility, but not much. I suppose it might be good to whack a special attacker on the switch, either to help beat it or let Luke set up on it, but that requires prediction and most likely isn't even worth a moveslot.

Acid Spray:
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Volcanion: 100-100 (29.3 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Volcanion Acid Spray vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 32-38 (4.5 - 5.3%)
252+ SpA Volcanion Acid Spray vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 63-75 (8.9 - 10.6%)
252+ SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. -4 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%)

In a 1v1 situation, and min damage rolls every time, Acid Spray + Acid Spray + Flamthrower + Flamethrower will kill Chansey from full health with no boosting item. Chansey's Seismic Toss is a 4HKO as well, but Chansey's slower. If Chansey uses Thunder Wave, Analytic starts activating. Toxic kills in five turns, which is even slower. Chansey's only hope is to Toxic stall with Protect. But not all Chansey use Protect, and not all Chansey use Toxic. The fact is that Acid Spray lets CAP beat one of the most specially bulky pokemon in OU, especially when we want it to counter us, makes it unsuitable for this CAP. In fact, if CAP has max HP and Leftovers, it can Counter Chansey.
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Volcanion: 100-100 (24.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
No, please.

Heat wave should be allowed. It's weaker than Fire Blast, so there's not a power problem. Having another option to balance power and accuracy is perfectly fine.

Clear Smog is too weak to be messing up our counters, so yeah, include it. It won't hurt anything and help us with a couple fairies better.

Signal Beam:
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Signal Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 192-228 (63.5 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No thank you. It hits nothing on our threatlist, so it'd be doing nothing but harming the concept.

Belch:
People have been complaining about a base power 95 poison move, so why would a base power 120 poison move be acceptable? I understand that having to eat a berry limits the sets it can be on, but it 2HKOs Latias (without an item, obviously). It's possible that SubSalac or such sets would be gimmicky and fail, but it's also possible that they could beat our counters, which isn't desirable. Finally, if I wanted to beat fairies consistently, why would I force myself to eat a berry first? The move doesn't deal with fairies any better than Sludge Wave. So compared to Sludge Wave, it helps less with the concept and more with beating our counters. There is no reason to allow this move.

Sludge Wave/Sludge Bomb:
I was almost convinced, and then Scoopapa swooped in. But how does it not beat Latias, when
252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 159-187 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO?
Also, LO still nets a 2HKO like Specs does. But then you are even more likely to kill yourself in the process. I suppose that CAP could beat the ground/steels and then kamikaze Latios, but that's unlikely.
I'm still leaning towards Allow.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I disagree that we're discussing Clear Smog because it's a poison move

Even Sludge would be out-damaged by Fire Blast or Hydro Pump in all cases except Azumarill. We cannot claim a move that's 2/3 as powerful as it as a viable source of coverage because it will just never be one. We can go ahead and discuss the merits of Clear Smog, but DO NOT even try to pretend we're looking at it because of its damage or coverage.

That's my fault for bringing it up, sorry team.
I forgot the definition of 'attacking' moves.

Acid Spray was in the 'needs discussion' when i looked at the OP this morning though!

 

[Scoopapa]

Sorry to post again so quickly but I think I can help clear something up on an issue that's been going around in circles on this page.

About Acid Spray / Clear Smog / Volt Switch etc. These are hybrid damage and support moves. Rather than trying to argue if they are pure damage or pure support, we should only evaluate the damage component here, and then we should only consider whether to Disallow or postpone judgment until the next stage. For instance, Volt Switch was too strong as a 70 BP electric move, so it had to go. I'm pretty sure we have consensus that 40 and 50 BP Poison moves are not too powerful. So that being the case, we should postpone the discussion of their support characteristics until the next stage (and then we will be in a better position to take both damage and support aspects of the moves into account).

In essence, this is kind of like treating them like support moves, with the exception that we catch the ones that are too powerful just from damage before the next stage.

 

[FMD]

Is it even possible to get a 2HKO with Belch? I was under the impression that it could only be used by eating a berry, which is hard to do twice unless you have Recycle or Harvest. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I am wrong about how the move works because honestly, when was the last time any of you have seen it used?

Also I asked about Mystical Fire on IRC and somebody had brought up the point that the SpAtk drop stops Pokemon like Latios from being able to counter 18. This definitely makes me want to have it disallowed.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Is it even possible to get a 2HKO with Belch? I was under the impression that it could only be used by eating a berry, which is hard to do twice unless you have Recycle or Harvest. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I am wrong about how the move works because honestly, when was the last time any of you have seen it used?

Also I asked about Mystical Fire on IRC and somebody had brought up the point that the SpAtk drop stops Pokemon like Latios from being able to counter 18. This definitely makes me want to have it disallowed.

It can only be used once you eat a berry, but once you do you can use it as many times as you want

 

[farmer Potato]

I peacefully disagree with signal beam. It should be disallowed.

My main reason for this is because Lati@s cannot safely take an Analytical 75 BP Spec'ed Modest Bug Move.

For that reason, I also lump Bug Buzz in the list of moves not allowed.

 

[Deck Knight]

The trend of using Specs Analytic calcs is one of the most disturbing things in here. It's barking mad to assume perfect prediction on the part of CAP 18, or to assume we're always slower on some of the bulkier threats, or that Specs will even be that desirable a set. There have been talks potentially about Recovery, and the allure of such an option means assuming Analytic against bulkier threats is unreasonable.

If you're going to disallow any move that has 90 or more BP and Water doesn't resist, just do so now and spare us the trouble. It's not a feature unique to Poison moves, especially since we've been talking about Scald and Fire Blast, and there's fundamentally no difference between ruining counters between burn and regular poison.

The entire premise of our early discussions was "we want to switch into Aegislash and make sure if it stays in it gets nuked and if it switches out, anything it might switch to would also risk a nuking." I don't see how or why that logic would have changed. Specific to Poison moves, Aegislash staying in on our prediction means it slams us with Shadow Ball for free, and god help us if we're Specs because we won't be able to eat SR and another Shadow Ball.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

While Sludge Bomb/Wave may 2HKO 4 HP Latios and Latias, would you really attempt to do so against Latios in the face of this?

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 318-375 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

[alexwolf]

DLC made some good points about Poison moves but I can't help but notice that his entire evaluation of their benefits was based on calcs with Choice Specs. Was there an IRC conversation where Choice Specs became the set we were planning for (and if that's the case why is Will-o-Wisp being cited as an alternative to some attacks)? I totally respect this possibility, but if it's not the case then I'm not willing to accept that conclusion a priori. (and I say this because the majority of the thread is assuming Specs in their calcs, not just DLC's latest post)

Without Specs, though, it's very difficult to get past Sylveon or Togekiss, and Belly Drum Azumarill beats us 1v1 despite WoW. The potential to spam Sludge Bomb for heavy damage and status lets us prevent SpD Fairies from stalling our attacks and scouting for misses. If the drawbacks of these Poison moves are minor enough that weighing drawbacks vs. benefits is worthwhile, then we need to consider these benefits, as well.

I also don't think we are considering enough what will happen the turn after you reveal you are locked into a choiced Poison move, and all of the Ground- and Steel-types we are supposed to deal with come in and do the dirty things they do to the rest of our core. So is that bad for the concept, or just bad for the player choosing Sludge Bomb/Wave (hint: I am about to argue for the latter). Just because CAP18 can kill Latios with Specs non-STAB Poison moves doesn't make CAP18 into a reliable Latios killer. The momentum-killing effects of non-STAB choice Poison will assure this. This "role" of potentially beating Latios isn't going to override the synergy that is already in place with our core. If Latios defogs, takes CAP18 to a sliver of it's health, dies, and is replaced by a Ground- or Steel-type, then Latios did it's job and CAP18 did not. Your core is left with the problematic mons, and you only killed something that doesn't really hinder Latias and Lucario. You just aren't going to say "I can maybe kill Latios with CAP18 with a risky play, I guess I don't want to use Lucario and Latias with it anymore". Even with Poison moves in your moveset, you are almost always going to spam STABs with your finite wallbreaking opportunities. This is a case where if the Poison move actually works out in your favor, you are probably outplaying your opponent.

About Latios, if we are assuming it is switching into Stealth Rock, it only fair to assume that we are as well. Life Orb Draco Meteor has a 50% chance to KO max HP CAP18 after SR, and Thunderbolt will always KO 0 HP CAP18 after SR. So switching in on Defog and defeating it isn't actually that easy.

Beating Latios in a manner that doesn't quite work against Latias can be nice for our core, anyway, if we want to promote Latias/Lucario/CAP18 and not Latios/Lucario/CAP18.

I'm still leaning towards Allow Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave.

Let's see some calcs without Specs then, shall we:

• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 141-166 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 122-144 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What does this mean? That Sludge Wave always 2HKOes Latios after 1 LO round (which will happen as soon as Latios attacks), while Latios does 68.5 - 81.1% back with LO Draco Meteor, which is never a OHKO after SR and 1 round of Lefties, which will have happened as Latios switches into the CAP. Furthermore, Latios can't stall for a miss or pp stall with Roost like it could with Fire Blast / Hydro Pump, as Sludge Wave has perfect accuracy and does 50% on average witht the same PPs as roost, which means that at worst, Sludge Wave will run out of PPs as soon as Roost does, and this is without counting possible crits. So with Sludge Wave, Latios can't anymore check the CAP, as even Fire Blast + Sludge Wave have a realy big chance to 2HKO Latios after 1 LO round, and as already explained, Sludge Wave can't be taken advantage by Roost.

Let's do one more:

• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Analytic Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 144-169 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

What does this mean? It means that without Sludge Wave the CAP has only a 13.2% chance to 2HKO Keldeo with Fire Blast, factoring in Fire Blast's accuracy, so Keldeo can check the CAP once the vast majority of the time, as long as SR is off the field and the CAP doesn't use Hidden Power Grass or Electric. However, with Sludge Wave, the CAP can always 2HKO Keldeo while Keldeo can't OHKO back after SR and 1 round of Lefties even with Specs, and even Fire Blast + Sludge Wave 2HKOes the majority of the time. Which means that Keldeo goes from a shaky check to a revenge killer that can't really switch into the CAP. Of course Hidden Power Grass and Electric exist, but at least then the CAP will be checked by Latios, which is not the case with Sludge Wave.

Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb cripple some of the Pokemon that are supposed to check us really bad, even with no boosting item, such as Latios and Keldeo, and thus shouldn't be allowed. Azumarill can already be dealt with WoW, Sylveon will be hard pressed between strong STABs and the burns that will usually acompany them or WoW, and Clefable can't even switch into item-less CAP, and is not that hard to take care with teammates, and finally, it's not like item-less Sludge Wave / Bomb can break through Clefable after a CM boost anyway. Yeah, i know that it would be better for the CAP to be able to act as a solid Clefable check, but thankfully there are plenty of good checks to Unaware Clefable, and Lucario can deal with it by carrying Iron Tail too. So, those Fairies still aren't walling the CAP any day soon, and those that can't be checked from our core are not that hard to check with other teammates. However, the CAP already seems to have few good checks, so let's not trim this list even further with strong Poison coverage.

 

[Vryheid]

I peacefully disagree with signal beam. It should be disallowed.

My main reason for this is because Lati@s cannot safely take an Analytical 75 BP Spec'ed Modest Bug Move.

For that reason, I also lump Bug Buzz in the list of moves not allowed.

I know this sounds crazy and all, but why don't you just not switch in your Lati@s into a specs Signal Beam? We do have this little thing called prediction- if you KNOW that the move is coming then send in a resist and you can easily force the CAPmon out while taking minimal damage from the attack. The ability to punish your opponent for making bad predictions is the sign of a well made offensive Pokemon, one that isn't complete deadweight against stally/defensive teams.

"But wait!" you say, "if you want to punish predicted switchins, won't we have to give it Psyshock and Energy Ball to take out Chansey, Keldeo and Wash Rotom?" No, we actually don't, if you think about what those three Pokemon are accomplishing against our offensive core. They can switch in to stop our momentum and force CAP 18 out, potentially reverse it if we're forced to sack something to take the hit. But if we just had some sort of teammates to work with- along the lines of, I dunno, Lucario and Latias- who just happen to counter Chansey, Keldeo, and Wash Rotom extremely well, we can build BACK our momentum like any competent offensive core should.

Now you tell me which of those two Pokemon are going to enjoy switching into a Life Orb Dragon Pulse from Latios. Latias? Yeah right. Lucario? It just gets blown up the next turn by Psyshock. And if they Calm Mind on the switchin, may Arceus have mercy on what's left of your team. We should not allow one Pokemon to completely shut down our entire offensive core. I thought the whole point of trying to have CAP 18 muscle through Aegislash was so that kind of shit would not happen. Signal Beam is necessary to threaten Lati@s, there are no alternatives which are more fair or balanced, and it doesn't prevent Lati@s from still acting as a reasonable check:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP 18: 294-348 (85.9 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And if you are bent on playing as poorly as possible instead of attempting to predict around the move, then try using a specially defensive Latias set, which can tank a Signal Beam even from the Choice Specs set and allow you to switch back out:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP 18 Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 216-256 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[farmer Potato]

I went back and read a list of moves still needing discussion . This includes Overheat. I feel, that overheat should be allowed.

Here is my reasoning.

Overheat acts as an amazing answer to many of the threats to our core otherwise, notably Mawile. Things like Clefable do not want to switch into it.

However, to Keldeo, Overheat is a max 40%, and since it halves SPA, CAP has to flee afterwards. It does ~20-30% to Washer, and 15% to AV Goodra.

This allows all these things to come in and force the weakened CAP to leave.


But the move still has valid uses. That is why I assert the allowing of Overheat.

Vryheid , can't argue with that logi

 

[Impy]

Has Giga Drain been talked about? I feel like it'd have it's own niche aside from Grass Knot, which is a little too powerful, and provide a source of health regen.

 

[farmer Potato]

I think it has been banned from sets.

 

[FireArrow]

Deck Knight's post should be copy pasted into the OP. Sacrificing coverage against fairies to avoid being able to potentially beat a counter with good play is not intuitive at all. By that logic, super fang and toxic should be disallowed for crippling AV Goodra.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

People are incorrectly insinuating that if we don't have super-effective coverage against Fairies then we don't have coverage against Fairies. A super-effective Sludge Bomb is less than 10% stronger than a neutral Fire Blast and a super-effective Sludge Wave is barely 15% stronger than a neutral Fire Blast. CAP18 will still 2HKO Physically Defensive Clefable 91.4% of the time without a boosting item, Timid, and Fire Blast. CAP18 will still not be able to break Sylveon with Sludge Wave without Choice Specs. CAP18 will still be able to burn Azumarill with Will-O-Wisp or 2HKO it on the switch with Specs most of the time with Fire Blast. We are not losing to Fairies just because we don't hit them super-effectively, and this is by design. We gave this Pokemon Analytic and 135 Special Attack so we can roast/drown Fairies without having to resort to super-effective coverage.

Hitting our counters 10-15% harder when they're already shaky at best is huge, however. Non-Specs Modest CAP18 will 2HKO Latios 66.4% of the time with Analytic Sludge Wave. It will never do so with Fire Blast. Latios still won't want to switch into Sludge Bomb thanks to the 30% of Poison that will easily send it into KO range with one more hit. Remember: Latios does not OHKO us unless it hits us with a Choice Specs Draco Meteor. If we can 2HKO it, including Poison damage, then it cannot counter us at all. Latias is in the same boat, especially since it's likely running Life Orb to essentially cap its HP at 90%. Just look at this calculation:

252+ SpA Analytic CAP18 Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 115-136 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 122-144 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

With two rounds of Life Orb recoil and taking into consideration the Poison chance, that's a 2HKO nearly every time. Remember, Sludge Bomb will poison Latias more often than not after two hits so it cannot reliably Roost off this damage. Fire Blast, on the other hand, has only an 8.5% chance of inflicting a Burn thanks to the miss rate. We want to let Latios and Latias beat us more often than not, and we do not allow that to happen with Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave.

The 10-15% power difference between Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave goes a much longer way towards letting CAP18 beat its checks and counters than the Pokemon it needs to threaten. Relax, everyone, even without Poison coverage there is absolutely zero chance this Pokemon ends up underpowered. We haven't limited ourselves in many steps in this process, and it's time to start doing so. We can get by with just dual STAB and possibly Rock or Steel coverage, but we neither want nor need Sludge Bomb/Wave to defeat Fairies.

 

[Deck Knight]

The last point I want to make as far as coverage revolves around Infiltrator. Remember that we want Analytic to be greatly preferred to Infiltrator, but we also want an Infiltrator set to be somewhat viable itself. Without a decent coverage move that threatens Fairies, Infiltrator goes from being overshadowed to being too niche to be relevant. SubToxic Aegislash is the main reason Infiltrator was selected. A CAP18 with Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb and Infiltrator can still threaten fairies without threatening anything else on our threat list. Goodra and the Blobs still tank it all to hell, and Bulky Waters can deal with it. Bulky Grounds on the other hand see all variants of Sludge Wave as an opportunity, which actually balances CAP in regards to something like a Specs set. Life Orb will be much more preferable.

I feel that Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave provide something that other coverage moves simply cannot by being relevant to how we want our CAP to interact with the metagame, and the coverage balances itself well between power and solid predictive play. If other moves with 90+ BP do too much against our threats I can understand that logic, but I think Poison coverage is a special case precisely because of the risk/reward interaction with what we want to check and counter CAP and what we want to threaten.

 

[Scoopapa]

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

So if we 2HKO something faster that also 2HKOs us, it checks us. If we 3HKO something faster that 2HKOs us, it counters us. This means Keldeo and the Latis are still checks even if we can 2HKO with proper prediction.

Without Sludge Bomb or Specs we have to catch many Fairy-types on the switch (or the switch into Stealth Rock) in order to actually defeat them. This does not constitute checking or countering them.

• SpD Togekiss has an easy time stalling us out 1v1. Even if it switches in it can stall several turns for a miss, at which point it gains the advantage. We need Stealth Rock to 2HKO it switching in.

• 252 HP Sylveon has a chance of the same, though the situation favors CAP, as Sylveon has to waste 8 WoW PP with Protect/misses in order to actually win. Sylveon isn't assumed to be running any SpD, either, meaning it could potentially do so in the new meta (there was a time when SpD was given mention on Sylveon's analysis, so it's not inconceivable). Finally, as WoW would be required to outstall Sylveon 1v1, Sylveon can just scout with Wish, take the Burn, and pass the Wish to something else. We need Stealth Rock to 2HKO on the switch if it uses Protect.

• Azumarill also OHKOs with a +6, Burned Waterfall. It's not exactly Azumarill's ideal scenario, but if it needed to Belly Drum in CAP's face, and throw some essentially +2 moves around, it could. WoW does let us switch in on Banded Azumarill's Play Rough and force it out. Specs sets don't even do that well against Banded Azu; they have to settle for a 46.5% chance to 2HKO with Fire Blast, which isn't stellar even assuming that we predicted correctly and came in on Play Rough. At least the Banded set is checked by a CAP with Will-o-Wisp.

• Edit: forgot to mention Clefable. 252 HP Clefable is cleanly 2HKOed by Fire Blast, so the situation is less dire here than against other Fairies. However, it has a very high chance to survive two Modest Fire Blasts in a 1v1 scenario, by setting up Calm Mind. Sludge Bomb does just enough to prevent this. This is pretty minor compared to the others, but Clefable shouldn't be setting up on us.

Sludge Bomb lets us deal heavy damage and status to Togekiss and Sylveon in one turn, which is crucial to preventing their healing cycles. It also lets us deal with Azumarill offensively; Will-o-Wisp doesn't exactly nuke switches. It's also unusable with Assault Vest.

There may be other support moves that would help us against these Fairies, but keep in mind that anything that raises our stalling potential makes us much more threatening to pink blobs and other "walls with minimal offensive presence".

Goodra, Chansey/Blissey, and Jellicent still care about as much about Sludge Bomb as they do about Scald.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I know this sounds crazy and all, but why don't you just not switch in your Lati@s into a specs Signal Beam? We do have this little thing called prediction- if you KNOW that the move is coming then send in a resist and you can easily force the CAPmon out while taking minimal damage from the attack. The ability to punish your opponent for making bad predictions is the sign of a well made offensive Pokemon, one that isn't complete deadweight against stally/defensive teams.

"But wait!" you say, "if you want to punish predicted switchins, won't we have to give it Psyshock and Energy Ball to take out Chansey, Keldeo and Wash Rotom?" No, we actually don't, if you think about what those three Pokemon are accomplishing against our offensive core. They can switch in to stop our momentum and force CAP 18 out, potentially reverse it if we're forced to sack something to take the hit. But if we just had some sort of teammates to work with- along the lines of, I dunno, Lucario and Latias- who just happen to counter Chansey, Keldeo, and Wash Rotom extremely well, we can build BACK our momentum like any competent offensive core should.

Now you tell me which of those two Pokemon are going to enjoy switching into a Life Orb Dragon Pulse from Latios. Latias? Yeah right. Lucario? It just gets blown up the next turn by Psyshock. And if they Calm Mind on the switchin, may Arceus have mercy on what's left of your team. We should not allow one Pokemon to completely shut down our entire offensive core. I thought the whole point of trying to have CAP 18 muscle through Aegislash was so that kind of shit would not happen. Signal Beam is necessary to threaten Lati@s, there are no alternatives which are more fair or balanced, and it doesn't prevent Lati@s from still acting as a reasonable check:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP 18: 294-348 (85.9 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And if you are bent on playing as poorly as possible instead of attempting to predict around the move, then try using a specially defensive Latias set, which can tank a Signal Beam even from the Choice Specs set and allow you to switch back out:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP 18 Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 216-256 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seems reasonable, I did not think Latios was that big of a threat to the core itself, and I like how it still lets them check us. So yeah we should probably Allow Signal Beam

 

[farmer Potato]

This talk about the Sludge moves is starting to change my opinion. However, I do not feel both should be allowed.

Allow Sludge Wave, disallow Sludge Bomb.

This may same strange, banning the lower power move. However, my reasoning rests in the Poison chance. I did calcs, no major Damage output between Bomb and Wave.

However, Poisoning a threat we want (especially the Bulky Waters and Goodra) will ruin that threat's viability. If we do not run Specs, then this allows CAP to not only have to switch out, but even to defeat the opponent, who was supposed to threaten us. Thus, ban Sludge Bomb, allow Sludge Wave.

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, so I think discussion has run its course, and as such this thread will now be closed. Thr following three moves will all be polled

Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Overheat

Each of these moves had solid discussion and arguments both for and against, and as fairly controversial moves, I will allow the community to vote on these. I highly encourage users that have not already, to go back through this thread and read up on said arguments regarding these moves, in order to make a well informed vote.

I'll see you all for the Non Attacking Move Discussion down the track.