SpikeStacking - in Ubers

[ssneak]

Greetings :J I have this Spike stacking team that I made, even though Defog is really common this gen, its worked pretty well. Spike stacking was one of the best (and underrated) tactics, because it abuses one thing almost every team uses and needs. Entry hazards. So after playing around with some common hazard setters, I have found the ultimate combination e.e

Scolipede (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect
- Endeavor
In most cases, I am leading with Scolipede. This set beats most other leads, Deoxys-A and S, Darkrai, and almost always gets it's hazards up. In most cases the Defog Arceus will be sent out ASAP to rid of the Spikes. Even if this happens, the main purpose was to cripple the Defogger, so it isn't that bad :J The EVs outspeed Deoxys-S at +1, and the remainder but in defense to take things like ESpeed from Deoxys-A or S and take Returns from Mega Kangaskhan. Pin Missile breaks Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and Deoxys-S easily, and prevents from being locked into any moves. Toxic Spikes is obv, Protect is to scout Choice Ogre and get the boost to outspeed Deoxys and others, and Endeavor is handy when at 1 HP for dealing huge damage to anything that tries to set up on it.

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Kyogre is extremely important to the team. As this team doesn't have any actual Xerneas "counters", Kyogre sort of checks it. With this spread Kyogre can take a +2 Thunder and then phase out with Roar. Now of course this doesn't work when Kyogre has taken prior damage, which is why there are some other checks to it. Roar also works nicely since this is a Spike Stacking team, and phazing racks up damage quickly. Kyogre synergizes really well with Lando-T too

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
Setting up Rocks on the team is Landorus-T. Since Kyogre is basically a sitting duck in front of physical threats such as Zekrom or Extreme Killer Arceus, Landorus-T is a great teammate for it. Landorus-T isn't even 3HKO'd by an Adamant -1 Outrage from Zekrom, and can OHKO back with an Earthquake. Landorus-T also helps by spreading Toxic around when Toxic Spikes aren't down, and crippling things like Groudon which is a threat to this team, and other Defog Arceus.

Lucario (M) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Tail
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
I needed a strong offensive mon on the team, to take out things that can stall out and annoy the rest of the team. Namely bulky Steel types. Mega Lucario is verrrrrry strong, almost nothing can switch into an Adaptability boosted Close Combat, and the other moves help cover it's weaknesses. This is another check to Extreme Killer too, unless it is Jolly, which can OHKO with Earthquake. Iron Tail destroys Fairies and is a nice secondary STAB, and also OHKOs Xerneas. Stone Edge is for things like Ho-oh and Lugia, since they are immune to 2/3 hazards and wall most of the team, I needed a way to take them out. Extreme Speed is a needed priority. Bullet Punch was an option (it is slightly stronger), but I didn't want repetitive typing so Extreme Speed was the next best choice :J

Klefki (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough
This thing is pure cancer to some teams, spreading status like a disease. Klefki sets up Spikes real quickly, while checking Xerneas with Thunder Wave and practically walling Yveltal. Max Sp Def to survive a +2 Focus Blast from Xerneas (I think), and it doesn't even get 3HKOd by Yveltal's Life Orb Dark Pulse. Toxic/Thunder Wave for spreading status, and Play Rough hits Yveltal pretty hard, and surprisingly uninvested Chansey/Blissey takes decent damage from the move.

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
Calm Nature
- Judgment
- Refresh
- Roar
- Recover
Even in XY, a spin blocker is vital on a spike stacking team. Arceus-Ghost does this job well. The spread can survive a +2 Moonblast from Xerneas, and Roar can phase it our. This is also a nice counter to an annoyance to stall teams, Giratina. Judgement deals hard damage to it, and Refresh can eliminate burns from Giratina and others.

This team has been really successful to me this far, but a lot of things beat this team, which sucks but I am looking to ways to patch them up

Mega Gengar: The big counter to this team, eating up Toxic Spikes and doing away with vital members of the team. Klefki and Scolipede hate it

Support Arceus-N: Rare, but had to be mentioned. Since it is usually leading, can take out Scolipede and Defog next turn, saddening :(

So yes rate give suggestions etc :]

 

[haxiom]

Hey ssneak,

It's kind of funny. You've got freaking four or five mons that check or counter Xerneas. However, you'll find that you're a bit weak to Kyogre and sort of Ekiller too, which is not good. Kyogre is a decent threat, your own SDefOgre being the only "safe" switch-in, while he pretty much obliterates everything else on the switch. Unfortunately, all your Kyogre can do is stall it out, as it will not really do much on its own. I get that you have hazards, but defogging just isn't that hard to pull against a team like this, which doesn't have too much offensive pressure to stop it. As for Ekiller, you've got a few very loose checks, but nothing is that solid; Ghostceus is your best bet and it is 2HKOd by Shadow claw if memory serves. On the other hand, Klefki is already a solid answer to GeoXern, I see no merit in running as many checks as you do, so I would make a few changes to redistribute the checks. As for Gengar, yes it is annoying but frankly loosing Keys isn't that horrible as long as you got down spikes since you already have more checks for what it checks. However, this is just theorizing and if it proves to be too much of a problem, a pursuit trapper would benefit this team nicely.

Just thinking out loud (or on a screen I guess), I'm wondering if Ferrothorn would be a good fit, checking Ekiller and Kyogre sort of, while still spike stacking, and forcing a good amount of switches with Leech Seed + Protect. You still have SDef Kyogre to check Yveltal and Xerneas I guess, though it does shift around the pressure. Another option would be to switch SDef Kyogre with a more solid check to opposing Kyogre and add a pursuit trapper somewhere (idk where though).


Set changes / Optimization:

Ghostceus: WoW > Roar- this allows you to burn Ekiller, which weakens it enough for you to recover off damage and force it out eventually. Just realized that you were counting on Tspikes to be up. I guess that's okay then, but note that this team doesn't have quite the offensive presence to stop defoggers, especially w/ Cleric support. I would also go with Timid nature, which is what I think you meant because you crept to base 100, but you need a positive nature for that.

MLuke: What advantage does Espeed have over BP? It's not like normal is an extremely dangerous offensive type that provides excellent coverage :)

Otherwise, as sort of a blanket statement about the sets, HP and Atk IVs could be changed, although both are minor nitpicks. Since you don't have defog, hazards will likely be on your side at some point, and it would be beneficial (albeit very slightly) to make sure to run odd HP numbers on your mons (Ex. 248 HP > 252 HP on Lando-T and SDefOgre and such). And, of course 0 Atk IVs on special attackers and anything without physical attacks because Swagplay.

Solid team, good luck!

 

[Hack]

There is simply no way you will keep up the hazards against any competent opponent- your hazard users will lose the war of attrition vs defogers paired with clerics so you can dream about beating any stall. You team needs shadow tag and probably fast taunt to keep up the hazards, as a defog Arceus can take the normal poison from t spikes clear hazards in the long run.

 

[ssneak]

Yes I see exactly what you mean :J

The reason for all of these "checks" is because all of these Pokemon loosely check GeoXern. Kyogre and Ghostceus can only phase it out if no prior damage (especially hazards since they wear the team down quickly), Lucario can only check if it hasn't used Geomancy yet, and OHKO with Iron Tail. The only thing Klefki can do is paralyze, so my main solution is to phaze

As for Kyogre thankfully I haven't seen too many Specs variants because it rips apart this team (like others without AV Palkia/Gastrodon) very quickly. The way I beat Ogre is to first switch in with Spec Def Kyogre, and try to rack up hazard damage to weaken Water Spout quickly, when that is done, playing mind games with Lando-T and Ogre is no problem, and Arceus can take a rain boosted Surf as well.

EKiller hasn't been too big a problem, usually what I do is switch to Lando-T, poison it (if Lum that could hurt) and stall it out w/ Ghostceus and and Intimidations

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Spikes stacking is stronk.

Is protect really necceasry necessary? I mean yeah it scouts and stuff but tbh against things you want to scout (specs ogre, any attack that brings down to sash) you'd prolly just want to get up a tspike, and then endeavor (or if deo, pin missile). You'd lose against only Darkrai, basicly. But you would get access to spikes on that set, because against some teams you just dont want to have tspikes up/it just isnt effective but there are cases where you could also set up a tspike and a spike but if you really find protect to be that necessary then keep it I guess, but spikes could work too.

Your team is not status prone. Refresh is not what you want, just run cm tbh.



Nooooow. Haxiom also said things. Right now, I wouldnt call the team "ekiller weak", tho it could oc be better, it could be so much worse. Everything phazes (btw roar arc is pretty kewl. Keys twaves it, and luke revenges. On paper it sounds weak af, but in practice it'll prolly be fine. Speaking of keys, good job on not having too much pressure on it. And like haxiom suggested, maybe ogre should go for palk. I recommend lustorus with pump/rend/fire blast/status (twave is gud) but you could run smt different, but not resttalk imo.

Oh and if youre changing ghosteus, at a bare minimum run 20 speed and timid, to outspeed neutral nature specs ogre. Btw I do like how roar is cool for cm wars, and it phazes ekiller too but it cant burn allowing it to set up again, wisp is a great option too but then you could like never use tspikes when you see arc, and it could be something like eleceus too which is basicly screwed over (any cm arc tbh) with a spike, and trying to burn ekiller is iffy too (lum, getting outsped and shadow forced and killed)) so yeh roar is prolly what you want because, even if you survive, lum is a thing and it is bad with tspikes.

Bullet punch luke is good for revenging xern. SD ray is also good, js.


And if you are like: f dis apple person, I aint doin' no kind of nothing, then at least consider using phys def ogre, tho spdef is also kewl with your team. Prolly keep it, and palk is better anyways imo :]

Hope this helped somewhat, even slightly.

 

[ssneak]

I have thought about replacing Lucario for Gengar, because of opposing stall. Lucario is a stall breaker of it's own, since practically nothing can switch into the strong Close Combat, and be fast enough to recover (unless I'm vs. something like max speed Supportceus which is awful) In most cases I get a dead Defogger or T Spikes up, which is a nice outcome. If they lead with it, Endeavor can cripple it enough to force a switch or me pick it off. If no lead, Toxic can wear it down

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Aaaaand hack is right.


The obvious answer is oc getting rid of ghosteus and replacing it with megagar. I hate to say it :( Bc luke is amazing, it can revenge both paralysed xern and ekiller which is amazing in combo with keys/twave palk (just so you know, mixed arceus fighting with iron head and judgement is an option). I guess you could, potentially, run yvetal, but yvetal is pretty unreliable as taunter imo, and it doesnt trap and is weak to common clerics. SD ray is gud. Ekiller is gud. AV palk is also a thing, but lustrous orb is just so kewl.

Actually I'm stupid, megagar revenges them too (tho tbh I'm not sure about the damage outputs at full health, like fb vs arc and sludge vs +2 xern).



But in the end, imo, go with gengar>arceus, and then strong physical set-up sweeper with priority>lucario. And with this change, it might actually be better to keep ogre. Yeh :]


PS high speed positive nature supportarc is the meta, its god tier. god

 

[ssneak]

Ok so far changing Arceus Ghost for Gengar, and Lucario for maybe SD Ray or E Killer thanks for the help :J

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Ok so far changing Arceus Ghost for Gengar, and Lucario for maybe SD Ray or E Killer thanks for the help :J

Yeh np :]

 

[haxiom]

The reason for all of these "checks" is because all of these Pokemon loosely check GeoXern. Kyogre and Ghostceus can only phase it out if no prior damage (especially hazards since they wear the team down quickly), Lucario can only check if it hasn't used Geomancy yet, and OHKO with Iron Tail. The only thing Klefki can do is paralyze, so my main solution is to phaze

As for Kyogre thankfully I haven't seen too many Specs variants because it rips apart this team (like others without AV Palkia/Gastrodon) very quickly. The way I beat Ogre is to first switch in with Spec Def Kyogre, and try to rack up hazard damage to weaken Water Spout quickly, when that is done, playing mind games with Lando-T and Ogre is no problem, and Arceus can take a rain boosted Surf as well.

EKiller hasn't been too big a problem, usually what I do is switch to Lando-T, poison it (if Lum that could hurt) and stall it out w/ Ghostceus and and Intimidations

About Xerneas checks, you seriously don't need that many. Honestly, since GeoXern only gets one chance to setup, phazing it practically IS countering it. In addition, Klefki will always get a para on Xerneas (well 9/10 times vs. sub variants b/c Play Rough misses). This is almost countering too, when paired with anything that can revenge it, like MLuke. While you could argue that you might need Klefki otherwise, the main other things it checks (like MM2X/Y, MBlaziken, and Ygod) are all beaten by Ghostceus, Lando-T, and SDef Kyogre respectively. I see no merit in being able to phaze it AND paralyze it AND revenge it.

As for checks, I guess you're right. While switch-ins might be lacking for Kyogre, you do have some ways of beating it (though you are relatively dependent on scald to burn). Mindgames can be played, but a mispredict opens up clean sweeps for other mons (especially if it is Lando-T that gets surfed). After that, Ho-Oh terrorizes you and Ekiller will annoy you too. Speaking of which, Ekiller is I guess checked but consider that the whole toxic stall will severely weaken Lando-T who is needed to check Krom and Ho-Oh. Also, Refresh Arceus, while rare, will beat you almost every time.

Just saw changes now *facepalm*

Yeah, basically my comments are mostly unchanged though. You don't have quite as many checks to Xerneas now, since you lose a superfluous phazer and swap revenge killers. Changes look good- not sure how good it is to have Lando-T as your best Arceus check, but whatever. Actually, without Ghostceus you will have an even harder time (FB wont KO and if not evolved you die to Shadow Claw) vs. Lum Arceus in addition to Refresh. Still, I suppose you can't beat everything.

Good luck!

 

[ssneak]

About Xerneas checks, you seriously don't need that many. Honestly, since GeoXern only gets one chance to setup, phazing it practically IS countering it. In addition, Klefki will always get a para on Xerneas (well 9/10 times vs. sub variants b/c Play Rough misses). This is almost countering too, when paired with anything that can revenge it, like MLuke. While you could argue that you might need Klefki otherwise, the main other things it checks (like MM2X/Y, MBlaziken, and Ygod) are all beaten by Ghostceus, Lando-T, and SDef Kyogre respectively. I see no merit in being able to phaze it AND paralyze it AND revenge it.

As for checks, I guess you're right. While switch-ins might be lacking for Kyogre, you do have some ways of beating it (though you are relatively dependent on scald to burn). Mindgames can be played, but a mispredict opens up clean sweeps for other mons (especially if it is Lando-T that gets surfed). After that, Ho-Oh terrorizes you and Ekiller will annoy you too. Speaking of which, Ekiller is I guess checked but consider that the whole toxic stall will severely weaken Lando-T who is needed to check Krom and Ho-Oh. Also, Refresh Arceus, while rare, will beat you almost every time.

Just saw changes now *facepalm*

Yeah, basically my comments are mostly unchanged though. You don't have quite as many checks to Xerneas now, since you lose a superfluous phazer and swap revenge killers. Changes look good- not sure how good it is to have Lando-T as your best Arceus check, but whatever. Actually, without Ghostceus you will have an even harder time (FB wont KO and if not evolved you die to Shadow Claw) vs. Lum Arceus in addition to Refresh. Still, I suppose you can't beat everything.

Good luck!

Well paralyzing is nowhere close to actually countering imo. First paralyzing it after Geo doesn't cut down it's Sp. Atk or anything. To keep momentum either Klefki must fall, because switching in Lucario is one of the most risky things I could do. The best thing I can do is phaze it with Ogre and try to stack up hazard damage.

Ho-oh is annoying to my team like all teams without Arceus-Rock/Tyranitar. I try to poison it with Landorus-T or get lucky enough to switch into a Sacred Fire and not get burned. I tried out Arceus-Dark instead of Ekiller, since it synergized with the team, and it was a nice check to Ekiller (WoW) and MMY. Anyways taking out Ekiller post-evolution is no problem, it's just hard trying to keep momentum w/o Gengar getting hit by Shadow Claw/EQ. With Focus Blast it makes it easy to pick off since in most cases it will be poisoned or it would have taken prior damage. And as for Refresh Arceus, it will lack a coverage move (hopefully Shadow Claw/Force) then Gengar pre-Evo thanks to Levitate stalls it out.

Thanks for the help!

 

[haxiom]

Well paralyzing is nowhere close to actually countering imo. First paralyzing it after Geo doesn't cut down it's Sp. Atk or anything. To keep momentum either Klefki must fall, because switching in Lucario is one of the most risky things I could do. The best thing I can do is phaze it with Ogre and try to stack up hazard damage.

Ho-oh is annoying to my team like all teams without Arceus-Rock/Tyranitar. I try to poison it with Landorus-T or get lucky enough to switch into a Sacred Fire and not get burned. I tried out Arceus-Dark instead of Ekiller, since it synergized with the team, and it was a nice check to Ekiller (WoW) and MMY. Anyways taking out Ekiller post-evolution is no problem, it's just hard trying to keep momentum w/o Gengar getting hit by Shadow Claw/EQ. With Focus Blast it makes it easy to pick off since in most cases it will be poisoned or it would have taken prior damage. And as for Refresh Arceus, it will lack a coverage move (hopefully Shadow Claw/Force) then Gengar pre-Evo thanks to Levitate stalls it out.

Thanks for the help!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xerneas-qc-3-3-gp-4-4.3495732/

There's a reason Klefki is number 6 in C&C, above Scizor and Aegislash. As long as you have something to beat it after it is paralyzed, such as Lucario, it is not really that catastrophic if you lose Klefki imo. On the other hand, phazing it is countering it so that should be your first line of defense, followed by a +1 Twave if Kyogre is too weak to take a thunder or something.

I'm not sure how reliable it is to assume that Arceus will not run a ghost coverage. I don't know. Darkceus is cool, but dark is a pretty bad defensive type for a support arceus. As for Ho-Oh, Lando-T is usually a solid sponge, I just find from experience that Ho-Oh's longevity will allow it to continually come in and fish for burns, and wear down Landorus since it doesn't get reliable recovery.

 

[CLear Note]

Change ExtreemSpeed --> BulletPunch on Mega-Lucario ; bp is nice on m-lucario as it picks up weakened geoxern (does roughly 50%). And anways ExtreemSpeed has no niche over Bp