... i never realised post count meant anything sorry
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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
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It doesn't. A lot of people are good and rarely post. It's just if you have no exerience in a metagame then act like you do (which is obvious, and people do it in Ubers and past gens the most) then people will obviously tell you that's what you're doing.
So how is Ghostceus better than Darceus?
nice post jimmyftw, didn't you complain about tldr posts from me earlier though? Here is what I think:
This part has absolutely no relevance at all, it's just blabbering. You can just say you disagree with these mons rank cause this is just substance-less text atm. The last sentence is not even funny as you can't give an concrete examples of anything.
Even though it was impossible to understand what you meant at first (poorly worded) I think I got your point here. Scizor and Lando-t have niches that aren't common, as well as big flaws. Okay more ranting, I get it.
First sentence is relevant. Second is an opinion, although I take it as you mean it would me nice if Scizor OHKOd Xerneas. HP Fire Xerneas is standard, it's the third slash in the lat moveslot in the analysis (but it should admittedly be slashed before lol focus blast). Scizor did check Ekiller with superpower before fire moves were standard on it (will get to that later), it scares support Arceus with Toxic and it can still be a decent defoger against some builds. It is also a pretty good pursuit trapper for stall teams, specially defensive Scizor takes a HP Fire from Gengar. Since Pursuit is mandatory on stall teams with Gengar prone mons (like defensive Xerneas or Sylveon), Scizor has a significant niche on those teams as stall is an archetype where you can afford to double up on checks to things (like having Lugia for Xerneas back up). Obviously Scizor isn't to be used on offensive teams, and with balance as an archetype fallen out of grace, Scizor finds its best niche on stall where things doesn't have to "hang" on it, since you have more than one check to things. So that's a short summary of what Scizor can do outside punching Xerneas. Nice last sentence.
Yeah it's a cute comparison but when you realise Lando-T isn't Groudon and can't be compared to it in the same way, they both have different niches and Lando-T isn't an Ekiller counter and shouldn't be used as one. Phazing is Groudon's big niche over Lando-T, Fire-moves being somewhat relevant as Ferrothorn is good in the meta (but much less common wtf). Lando-T makes your team less weak to Groudon, Blaziken and Ho-oh so there is that. AS in offensive sets, Lando-T isn't affected by sticky webs and has Explosion, which are some cool traits. Groudon is still a very good mon but I feel it's easier to fit Lando-T on most builds, especially stall since it can check Blaziken better than most mons. The statement about "being OHKOd by all scarfers except this example" is flimsy and doesn't really add much substance to your argument. A scarfer has to lock itself into a move to KO, so it automatically opens itself up to being walled by something on your team. Gets wrecked by anything faster than it: sure but why no keep up the comparison with Groudon and give us some examples where Groudon does better? I don't see how Groudon fares better vs Yveltal, Darkrai, BU MMX etc.
In conclusion? How do you conclude anything from a post full of nothing? Oh well so you give us a nice choice here. Thanks. Either we agree that these two mons are shit (they aren't) or we disagree and then the METAGAME IS DOOMED OMGOMGOMG. Nice. I don't understand any words after "metagame," lol. Like what is "more exploitable than ever before" supposed to mean? Are we comparing to gen5 again? And what is "more" supposed to mean? How can you conclude that without any facts whatsoever? The last sentence is bull.
Post is 2/10, focus on making yourself understood (it was hard to get anything out of this), being more concrete and be more objective. Nice try as you are partically correct about Scizor- it is a bit worse than it used to be.
This part has absolutely no relevance at all, it's just blabbering. You can just say you disagree with these mons rank cause this is just substance-less text atm. The last sentence is not even funny as you can't give an concrete examples of anything.
Even though it was impossible to understand what you meant at first (poorly worded) I think I got your point here. Scizor and Lando-t have niches that aren't common, as well as big flaws. Okay more ranting, I get it.
First sentence is relevant. Second is an opinion, although I take it as you mean it would me nice if Scizor OHKOd Xerneas. HP Fire Xerneas is standard, it's the third slash in the lat moveslot in the analysis (but it should admittedly be slashed before lol focus blast). Scizor did check Ekiller with superpower before fire moves were standard on it (will get to that later), it scares support Arceus with Toxic and it can still be a decent defoger against some builds. It is also a pretty good pursuit trapper for stall teams, specially defensive Scizor takes a HP Fire from Gengar. Since Pursuit is mandatory on stall teams with Gengar prone mons (like defensive Xerneas or Sylveon), Scizor has a significant niche on those teams as stall is an archetype where you can afford to double up on checks to things (like having Lugia for Xerneas back up). Obviously Scizor isn't to be used on offensive teams, and with balance as an archetype fallen out of grace, Scizor finds its best niche on stall where things doesn't have to "hang" on it, since you have more than one check to things. So that's a short summary of what Scizor can do outside punching Xerneas. Nice last sentence.
Yeah it's a cute comparison but when you realise Lando-T isn't Groudon and can't be compared to it in the same way, they both have different niches and Lando-T isn't an Ekiller counter and shouldn't be used as one. Phazing is Groudon's big niche over Lando-T, Fire-moves being somewhat relevant as Ferrothorn is good in the meta (but much less common wtf). Lando-T makes your team less weak to Groudon, Blaziken and Ho-oh so there is that. AS in offensive sets, Lando-T isn't affected by sticky webs and has Explosion, which are some cool traits. Groudon is still a very good mon but I feel it's easier to fit Lando-T on most builds, especially stall since it can check Blaziken better than most mons. The statement about "being OHKOd by all scarfers except this example" is flimsy and doesn't really add much substance to your argument. A scarfer has to lock itself into a move to KO, so it automatically opens itself up to being walled by something on your team. Gets wrecked by anything faster than it: sure but why no keep up the comparison with Groudon and give us some examples where Groudon does better? I don't see how Groudon fares better vs Yveltal, Darkrai, BU MMX etc.
In conclusion? How do you conclude anything from a post full of nothing? Oh well so you give us a nice choice here. Thanks. Either we agree that these two mons are shit (they aren't) or we disagree and then the METAGAME IS DOOMED OMGOMGOMG. Nice. I don't understand any words after "metagame," lol. Like what is "more exploitable than ever before" supposed to mean? Are we comparing to gen5 again? And what is "more" supposed to mean? How can you conclude that without any facts whatsoever? The last sentence is bull.
Post is 2/10, focus on making yourself understood (it was hard to get anything out of this), being more concrete and be more objective. Nice try as you are partically correct about Scizor- it is a bit worse than it used to be.
Here's few mons that are missing from viability list:
Tentacruel (B)
A shaky ogre check that can lay toxic spikes and spins. Excellent on stall teams, and can use ice beam/scald/hydro pump with its 100 spe base to destroy grounds. Also absorbs ts which fucks over cute scolipede teams. It's bulk makes it hard to prevent spinning without a ghost type for sticky teams.
Talonflame (C+)
BRAVEST BIRD. Yolobird etc. I requested C+ for this before, but now it's being given an analysis. So, I think that it warrants an actual ranking now. With priority CB brave bird, it just 2hkos everything but it dies in few hits. SR weakness sucks too. :( Can use last-ditch suicidal tailwind to surprise opponent and give you 3 turns of advantage.
Vicinti (C+)
A shaky xern check that cannot get phazed into hazards. Can functions as a late-game cleaner with TR. Not really sure about what this does. Steelskitty fill me in?
Gothitelle (C+)
Self explanatory
Proposed changes:
Lugia B+ -> A-
This thing never dies lol. A total bitch to beat in this meta. Very good mon and acts as a glue for many teams.
Arceus-Fairy A- -> B+
Fairyceus competes with other fairies a lot. It's hard to justify using fairyceus as a fairy when it uses up your arceus slot. Also, there's better cm arceus, so that set is rarely to never used. Very STAG prone. Still good arc, just very difficult to justify it a teamslot.
Deoxys-D B -> C-
Melee Mewtwo How does this thing check mewtwos anyways? They just lol at you and taunt you to oblivion. There's far better spikers in meta (forr, ferro, and klefki) that aren't totally deadweight. The lead set is just outclassed by deo-s/deo-a. Please explain to me why it shouldn't be removed from viability list.
Kangaskhan B -> B+
Kangaskhan is very good at it's role as an antilead and owning anything slower than it. B+ indicates that it's very good at its specialized role (as how i interpret the viability list as), and there's nothing else that fulfill what parental bond can bring to the table. Also, pseudo beating anything in meta with fake out is cute.
Excadrill B -> B+
Best spinner in meta. Very powerful in sand. Can revenge kill xern in sand.
Tyranitar B -> A-
Tyranitar summons the sand. Tyranitar is probably most reliable pursuit trapper for Gengar. Fairies fear tyranitar's strong stone edges. Tyranitar can phaze, TOXIC, and set rocks. Also, better check vs mewtwos compared to deo-d. Yveltal and most cm arc fears this monster too. Can use shuca/chople/lefties/tyranitarite/sash/whatever for the role you need. Very versatile and invaluable sand support (excadrill =D). At least B+ please.
Whimsicott B -> C+
Poor Zekrom check. Just makes your opponent frustrated with encore shenanigans. All the opponent has to do to beat Whim is to attack. Pretty much any attack is gonna break the sub lol. Priority stun spore is overshadowed by KLEFKI (this thing is better in virtually any regard).
Aegislash B- -> B+
Pursuit yay. Reliable xern check. Can lure unwitting firebarns with rock slide. Very good on stall teams. Also, iron head is excellent to ensure that you beat ALL variants of xern.
Lucario B- -> B
Strong as fuck is the best word to describe this. Kinda struggles vs fast support arc, but thank god for STAG (heuhue). Very good on sticky too. BP is cool vs revenge killing geoxern too. A bit weak tho. :(
Arceus-Fighting C+ -> D
lol. this thing is a joke srsly. it's literally just an inferior ghostceus that gets trapped by STAG. There's no appreciable niche for this farceus.
Arceus-Dragon C -> C+
Can be cute for tanking water spouts from ogre and smacking opp around with strong dragon moves.
Tentacruel (B)
A shaky ogre check that can lay toxic spikes and spins. Excellent on stall teams, and can use ice beam/scald/hydro pump with its 100 spe base to destroy grounds. Also absorbs ts which fucks over cute scolipede teams. It's bulk makes it hard to prevent spinning without a ghost type for sticky teams.
Talonflame (C+)
BRAVEST BIRD. Yolobird etc. I requested C+ for this before, but now it's being given an analysis. So, I think that it warrants an actual ranking now. With priority CB brave bird, it just 2hkos everything but it dies in few hits. SR weakness sucks too. :( Can use last-ditch suicidal tailwind to surprise opponent and give you 3 turns of advantage.
Vicinti (C+)
A shaky xern check that cannot get phazed into hazards. Can functions as a late-game cleaner with TR. Not really sure about what this does. Steelskitty fill me in?
Gothitelle (C+)
Self explanatory
Proposed changes:
Lugia B+ -> A-
This thing never dies lol. A total bitch to beat in this meta. Very good mon and acts as a glue for many teams.
Arceus-Fairy A- -> B+
Fairyceus competes with other fairies a lot. It's hard to justify using fairyceus as a fairy when it uses up your arceus slot. Also, there's better cm arceus, so that set is rarely to never used. Very STAG prone. Still good arc, just very difficult to justify it a teamslot.
Deoxys-D B -> C-
Melee Mewtwo How does this thing check mewtwos anyways? They just lol at you and taunt you to oblivion. There's far better spikers in meta (forr, ferro, and klefki) that aren't totally deadweight. The lead set is just outclassed by deo-s/deo-a. Please explain to me why it shouldn't be removed from viability list.
Kangaskhan B -> B+
Kangaskhan is very good at it's role as an antilead and owning anything slower than it. B+ indicates that it's very good at its specialized role (as how i interpret the viability list as), and there's nothing else that fulfill what parental bond can bring to the table. Also, pseudo beating anything in meta with fake out is cute.
Excadrill B -> B+
Best spinner in meta. Very powerful in sand. Can revenge kill xern in sand.
Tyranitar B -> A-
Tyranitar summons the sand. Tyranitar is probably most reliable pursuit trapper for Gengar. Fairies fear tyranitar's strong stone edges. Tyranitar can phaze, TOXIC, and set rocks. Also, better check vs mewtwos compared to deo-d. Yveltal and most cm arc fears this monster too. Can use shuca/chople/lefties/tyranitarite/sash/whatever for the role you need. Very versatile and invaluable sand support (excadrill =D). At least B+ please.
Whimsicott B -> C+
Poor Zekrom check. Just makes your opponent frustrated with encore shenanigans. All the opponent has to do to beat Whim is to attack. Pretty much any attack is gonna break the sub lol. Priority stun spore is overshadowed by KLEFKI (this thing is better in virtually any regard).
Aegislash B- -> B+
Pursuit yay. Reliable xern check. Can lure unwitting firebarns with rock slide. Very good on stall teams. Also, iron head is excellent to ensure that you beat ALL variants of xern.
Lucario B- -> B
Strong as fuck is the best word to describe this. Kinda struggles vs fast support arc, but thank god for STAG (heuhue). Very good on sticky too. BP is cool vs revenge killing geoxern too. A bit weak tho. :(
Arceus-Fighting C+ -> D
lol. this thing is a joke srsly. it's literally just an inferior ghostceus that gets trapped by STAG. There's no appreciable niche for this farceus.
Arceus-Dragon C -> C+
Can be cute for tanking water spouts from ogre and smacking opp around with strong dragon moves.
As much as I love 90% of orch 's post I have to disagree with one thing(mainly) Tenta isn't B worthy defog has impacted it in 2 very important ways: 1) Niche of spinners to get rid of hazards are now shared with defog 2) tspikes are way easier to remove. Not only this but it's one of the worst of all the "niche poison xern checks" such as nidoqueen and mvenu because at least mvenu and queen actually can take thunder, an important coverage move from geoxern, so it doesn't even have a good niche in that ether. idk if it should be C or D, I dont have too much testing with it but it's lol def not B rank.
C or C+ Rank (Mvenu if you can't tell from the sprite :///)
Yeah so this is apparently a thing but I fucking swear Roar Mvenu is literally better than AV Amoonguss. The big part about Mega Venu over Amoong is how it can afford to pivot into Ice Beam, however, specs modest water spout from ogre stilll 2hkos both of them so their still just really extreme checks, not counters, because, it's freaking Kyogre, bar palkia rarely anything actually counters it. Mega Venu also is a very great GeoXern check that takes anything bar Psyshock and can Roar it out. With 252 hp/116 defense bold it can tank 2 zekrom scarf outrages, which imo is really important to how it plays because eq + synthesis (with possible donner sun support) can enable it to handle ScarfRom (if you really want to 2hko rom you can just use the rest ~140 evs into atk and 2ko scarfrom w/ eq). It also beats Dialga and Palk depending on the set (not the foes set, I mean the mvenu set, anti zekrom set cannot handle it that well imo):
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 222-262 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it also checks other mid-low threats like Eleceus WaterCeus and other stuff.
Yeah so this is apparently a thing but I fucking swear Roar Mvenu is literally better than AV Amoonguss. The big part about Mega Venu over Amoong is how it can afford to pivot into Ice Beam, however, specs modest water spout from ogre stilll 2hkos both of them so their still just really extreme checks, not counters, because, it's freaking Kyogre, bar palkia rarely anything actually counters it. Mega Venu also is a very great GeoXern check that takes anything bar Psyshock and can Roar it out. With 252 hp/116 defense bold it can tank 2 zekrom scarf outrages, which imo is really important to how it plays because eq + synthesis (with possible donner sun support) can enable it to handle ScarfRom (if you really want to 2hko rom you can just use the rest ~140 evs into atk and 2ko scarfrom w/ eq). It also beats Dialga and Palk depending on the set (not the foes set, I mean the mvenu set, anti zekrom set cannot handle it that well imo):
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 222-262 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it also checks other mid-low threats like Eleceus WaterCeus and other stuff.
Tentacruel is not a geo xern check. I never claimed it to be so. Spinning is definitively preferable to defog, since it doesn't remove your hazards which goes in hand with tentacruel's toxic spikes. TS is not "easier" to remove lol. Defoggers are forced to be poisoned to remove the TS, which can be bad for them. While, true, spinners are predominantly steel types, which gives 0 fucks about TS, but it doesn't change the fact that hydro pump/scald owns these spinners lol.
oh it must have been someone on IRC asking why was tenta so much so worse as a geoxern check when melee & others were discussing the nidoqueen analysis. Anyways, the ubers metagame is prepared for status, with the popularization of ClericXern, Sylve, etc. Tenta also has huge trouble even trying to set up tspikes, Kyogre thunders the shit out of it, M2 will rape it probably the hardest out of anything in ubers, MGar can absorb tspikes on it's 2nd switch into the field, Xern can use it as aromarest bait or geothunder bait, Arc-Ghost defogs it's hazards away, Arc-Normal uses it as set up bait, Blaziken rips everything into shreds so it's no question it will do the same to tenta WARY OF STAB, Lando-T is wary of water STAB but other than that it can beat it, Palkia thunders it, Yveltal is immune to it's hazards and 2hkos it. Also, who switches in a defogger AFTER tenta sets up 2 layers of tspikes? that might be a no brainer at first but just listen to this- if you have something vs a tenta out, why can't you literally get a free switch into your non water STAB weak defogger cause tenta isn't that strong w/o SE power. For instance, you have some odd thing that doesn't beat Tenta in on tenta, who won't you just go into arc-ghost for example for literally free defog before all this shit with tspikes poison starts. Tenta is a fairly one dimensional so switching into a defog user that isn't weak to hpump and defoging the hazards first chance you get is really easy.
Tenta is p shit. Somewhere in C rank for it.
Arc-fighting does have a niche. It's terrible, but a lot better than fireceus. Like seriously fireceus is so bad oml. Having a legitimate role on a team is at least something going for it. Like mid C or something is fine for it but it's better than about half of the arceus forms (steel/ice/bug/fire/dragon/flying) I think where it is is where it belongs, unless u plan to remove its friends down too. Whimsi should stay too, it's decent don't underestimate. Rest of ur post is cool imo. Steel arceus needs to go down tho imo.
Arc-fighting does have a niche. It's terrible, but a lot better than fireceus. Like seriously fireceus is so bad oml. Having a legitimate role on a team is at least something going for it. Like mid C or something is fine for it but it's better than about half of the arceus forms (steel/ice/bug/fire/dragon/flying) I think where it is is where it belongs, unless u plan to remove its friends down too. Whimsi should stay too, it's decent don't underestimate. Rest of ur post is cool imo. Steel arceus needs to go down tho imo.
Just posting to address some largely neglected comments and suggestions, since a lot of them deserve to be addressed properly.
Ditto is interesting. It has substantial advantages in its potential versatility, the ability to use most anything an opponent can against them and above all the ability to countersweep an opponent with their set up sweepers, which is often enough to prevent them from setting up at all. On the other hand, it tends to lack longevity and utility outside revenge killing, is very limited against stall and therefore somewhat match up reliant, it lacks the ability to check Calm Mind Arceus and can be played around. All in all it is relatively niche.
To begin with Mega Mewtwo Y, which I consider to be the superior Mega Evolution, its stat combination and coverage options are incredible. The speed is so great that very little can outspeed it unboosted, and almost everything that can outspeed it (unboosted or otherwise) struggles to switch in for fear of being OHKOed or 2HKOed by its STAB (and revenge killers can rarely afford to sustain such damage). The power and coverage it has threatens to OHKO or 2HKO all but the most robust walls, although of course it can only use a few coverage options at a time, leaving it walled by certain Pokemon. Nonetheless, very unfavourable match ups aside, the combination of this power, coverage and speed, complemented by Taunt allows it to threaten everything from offensive to full stall teams quite effectively. Finally, the increased special bulk is surprisingly useful, even at the cost of physical bulk; the offensive teams on which Mewtwo is often found commonly lack good tanks for attacks beyond their Arceus forme, which can easily be overwhelmed if it must take on this role alone. Many such weaken the offensive momentum on which these teams thrive. Mega Mewtwo Y's good special bulk is often just enough to ease this role a little for Arceus; it can even survive any hit from a slightly weakened Scarf Kyogre, and its superb base speed allows it to forgo some speed investment to supplement its bulk. Also, do not underestimate the unpredictability of it once revealed; between various coverage options and Calm Mind vs Taunt variants, its checks vary substantially. Admittedly, its typing is underwhelming, it is Pursuit-weak if it lacks coverage to threaten the Pursuit user (although Fire Blast/Focus Blast are very common on it) and it is very vulnerable to physical attacks, but it is nonetheless a major threat.
Mega Mewtwo X I am admittedly less familiar with, but it is still a potent threat. It has a slightly less elite speed tier in exchange for a more devastating STAB, and better mixed but worse specialized bulk. Almost every point about Mega Mewtwo Y's speed, access to Taunt and power applies for Mega Mewtwo X. It also has some good coverage options and the ability to use effective mixed sets (which Mega Mewtwo Y does not need to owing the Psystrike mechanics), allowing it to overcome the vast majority of its checks like Mega Mewtwo Y, although a lack of good Dark/Ghost coverage leaves it struggling with Ghosts, and many of these coverage options are not as powerful as those Mega Mewtwo Y has. Nonetheless, the power of its Low Kick cannot be understated, as it comes close to OHKOing even neutral targets such as Palkia and Kyogre. Its typing is again underwhelming, where an appreciable loss of the Dark-type weakness arguably does not compensate the gained Fairy-type weakness, while Bug and Flying are both relatively rare attacking types. The loss of Pursuit weakness and lesser frailty against physical attacks are useful, although Mega Mewtwo Y's specialized bulk arguably has more overall utility.
Finally, there is Stalltwo, which should certainly not be forgotten. Although not threatening in terms of KO potential, it can still be debilitating to face for many more defensively oriented teams, and hamper them even more than Mega Mewtwo X or Mega Mewtwo Y as they rarely carry Recover. Its greater bulk and use of Recover and Will-O-Wisp also allows it to check various threats repeatedly, which more offensive Mewtwo variants cannot do.
I also feel that the offensive variants are not checked as effectively by Yveltal as Ghost Arceus is, as Yveltal cannot switch in nearly as easily even against common moves (whereas Ghost Arceus must use niche coverage to threaten it), often being 2HKOed or even OHKOed after SR by the right move. It can revenge kill both sets very well and excels against Stalltwo, but it does not happily switch into Mega Mewtwo Y and it can rarely switch into Mega Mewtwo X at all. Mega Mewtwo Y can also overcome Ghost Arceus; some EV spreads struggle to switch into Psystrike, none of the common ones can survive two Shadow Balls, and Calm Mind variants simultaneously threaten Ghost Arceus more and are less vulnerable to Judgment. The other two Mewtwo still lose to Ghost Arceus though.
With little regard for the recent post that is likely the work of Jimmyftw, I too feel that Scizor is ranked a little too highly. The metagame quickly adapted around its hype and Fire type-moves are relatively common on both Geomancy Xerneas and Extremekiller Arceus, leaving it unable to do more than revenge kill the former and completely unable to check certain variants of the latter. It can also serve in other roles, such as soft checking Calm Mind Arceus with Toxic, acting as a functional (but not effective) Defog user, or Pursuit-trapping Gengar for teams that would otherwise be hampered by it, but it can only perform a few of these roles at a time. Finally, it is easily exploited by many major metagame threats (unless it carries U-turn and can predict these switches, but this compounds its 4MSS). It has a lot of varied utility to provide teams, but the metagame developed against it somewhat and again it can only perform some of its roles at a time.
Not addressing Lugia, Hack can do that far better than I can.
Ditto needs a rank and C is appropriate.
Ditto is interesting. It has substantial advantages in its potential versatility, the ability to use most anything an opponent can against them and above all the ability to countersweep an opponent with their set up sweepers, which is often enough to prevent them from setting up at all. On the other hand, it tends to lack longevity and utility outside revenge killing, is very limited against stall and therefore somewhat match up reliant, it lacks the ability to check Calm Mind Arceus and can be played around. All in all it is relatively niche.
Although I can see that Mewtwo sometimes seems to underperform, as its coverage is somewhat match up reliant and certain Pokemon will check the chosen variant very well, it definitely deserves its place in the S rank.
To begin with Mega Mewtwo Y, which I consider to be the superior Mega Evolution, its stat combination and coverage options are incredible. The speed is so great that very little can outspeed it unboosted, and almost everything that can outspeed it (unboosted or otherwise) struggles to switch in for fear of being OHKOed or 2HKOed by its STAB (and revenge killers can rarely afford to sustain such damage). The power and coverage it has threatens to OHKO or 2HKO all but the most robust walls, although of course it can only use a few coverage options at a time, leaving it walled by certain Pokemon. Nonetheless, very unfavourable match ups aside, the combination of this power, coverage and speed, complemented by Taunt allows it to threaten everything from offensive to full stall teams quite effectively. Finally, the increased special bulk is surprisingly useful, even at the cost of physical bulk; the offensive teams on which Mewtwo is often found commonly lack good tanks for attacks beyond their Arceus forme, which can easily be overwhelmed if it must take on this role alone. Many such weaken the offensive momentum on which these teams thrive. Mega Mewtwo Y's good special bulk is often just enough to ease this role a little for Arceus; it can even survive any hit from a slightly weakened Scarf Kyogre, and its superb base speed allows it to forgo some speed investment to supplement its bulk. Also, do not underestimate the unpredictability of it once revealed; between various coverage options and Calm Mind vs Taunt variants, its checks vary substantially. Admittedly, its typing is underwhelming, it is Pursuit-weak if it lacks coverage to threaten the Pursuit user (although Fire Blast/Focus Blast are very common on it) and it is very vulnerable to physical attacks, but it is nonetheless a major threat.
Mega Mewtwo X I am admittedly less familiar with, but it is still a potent threat. It has a slightly less elite speed tier in exchange for a more devastating STAB, and better mixed but worse specialized bulk. Almost every point about Mega Mewtwo Y's speed, access to Taunt and power applies for Mega Mewtwo X. It also has some good coverage options and the ability to use effective mixed sets (which Mega Mewtwo Y does not need to owing the Psystrike mechanics), allowing it to overcome the vast majority of its checks like Mega Mewtwo Y, although a lack of good Dark/Ghost coverage leaves it struggling with Ghosts, and many of these coverage options are not as powerful as those Mega Mewtwo Y has. Nonetheless, the power of its Low Kick cannot be understated, as it comes close to OHKOing even neutral targets such as Palkia and Kyogre. Its typing is again underwhelming, where an appreciable loss of the Dark-type weakness arguably does not compensate the gained Fairy-type weakness, while Bug and Flying are both relatively rare attacking types. The loss of Pursuit weakness and lesser frailty against physical attacks are useful, although Mega Mewtwo Y's specialized bulk arguably has more overall utility.
Finally, there is Stalltwo, which should certainly not be forgotten. Although not threatening in terms of KO potential, it can still be debilitating to face for many more defensively oriented teams, and hamper them even more than Mega Mewtwo X or Mega Mewtwo Y as they rarely carry Recover. Its greater bulk and use of Recover and Will-O-Wisp also allows it to check various threats repeatedly, which more offensive Mewtwo variants cannot do.
I also feel that the offensive variants are not checked as effectively by Yveltal as Ghost Arceus is, as Yveltal cannot switch in nearly as easily even against common moves (whereas Ghost Arceus must use niche coverage to threaten it), often being 2HKOed or even OHKOed after SR by the right move. It can revenge kill both sets very well and excels against Stalltwo, but it does not happily switch into Mega Mewtwo Y and it can rarely switch into Mega Mewtwo X at all. Mega Mewtwo Y can also overcome Ghost Arceus; some EV spreads struggle to switch into Psystrike, none of the common ones can survive two Shadow Balls, and Calm Mind variants simultaneously threaten Ghost Arceus more and are less vulnerable to Judgment. The other two Mewtwo still lose to Ghost Arceus though.
Scizor for A- rank.
With little regard for the recent post that is likely the work of Jimmyftw, I too feel that Scizor is ranked a little too highly. The metagame quickly adapted around its hype and Fire type-moves are relatively common on both Geomancy Xerneas and Extremekiller Arceus, leaving it unable to do more than revenge kill the former and completely unable to check certain variants of the latter. It can also serve in other roles, such as soft checking Calm Mind Arceus with Toxic, acting as a functional (but not effective) Defog user, or Pursuit-trapping Gengar for teams that would otherwise be hampered by it, but it can only perform a few of these roles at a time. Finally, it is easily exploited by many major metagame threats (unless it carries U-turn and can predict these switches, but this compounds its 4MSS). It has a lot of varied utility to provide teams, but the metagame developed against it somewhat and again it can only perform some of its roles at a time.
Deoxys-S is still the face of hyper offense. The small advantage in speed and big advantage in bulk just makes it a lot more troublesome than Deoxys-A could hope to be as a double entry hazard setter, not to mention that using Taunt, Stealth Rock and Spikes on Deoxys-A effectively negates its advantage over Deoxys-S since the offensive capability between a Focus Sash and no coverage is lacking (while lacking any of those moves means they are no longer performing the same role). Even when antilead, it can sometimes come in a few turns later and manage to set 2 layers of hazards. Once it has successfully set hazards and died, a well-constructed hyper offensive team should have little difficulty either preventing or significantly delaying the removal of entry hazards with a combination of Taunt and the offensive threat of giving free turns to devastating set up sweepers, as well as potentially Darkrai's Dark Void or a Rock Polish + Explosion Landorus-T. With entry hazards maintained for a handful of turns and abused freely by major offensive threats, the opposing team will likely be too broken to manage even if the hazards are removed.
Not addressing Lugia, Hack can do that far better than I can.
Saying what I was thinking pretty much. In total agreement with your comments.
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas in Sun: 505-595 (110.7 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
thats all u need to know
Orch may be correct in stating that Excadrill needs a raise. While the sand nerf is annoying, it is still a very potent threat and its coverage and dual STABs are quite good. Being able to spin and prevent Defog from ruining a set is just another bonus. While it demands sand support, both Tyranitar and Hippowdon are both great mons and tend to work well with it in the first place, as both Tyranitar and Hippo don't like faries. It can be difficult to get in since it is fragile and relies on LO to wreck, and even more difficult to do this with a fresh sandstorm, but if you can it has no trouble sweeping so long as you don't EQ instead of double IH.
~First bit is going to be a response to orch's suggestions.~
Tenta I'm fine with re-adding without getting an analysis first since it was on the list last gen. I wouldn't stick it above B-, though. It's a pretty specialized mon since it doesn't actually check anything significant alone. It's key niches are handling hazards and laying t spikes but it's only really optimal for those builds on more defensive teams that need something more sturdy than a Scolipede. C+, imo.
Can we wait til it's passed? I'm not really sure when a team would actually *want* a Talonflame. It just seems sorta Stunfisk-esque in that it can do something but what worth is that? It's greatest niche is at cleaning teams which is pretty damn situational. I guess it can also annoy softer offensive threats? Strong priority isn't actually so hard to find that I want to dig for something as specialized as Talon. If we do add it, I'd rather not see it as high as C+.
Victini's got a legit niche and it's okay overall so C+ sounds fair for it.
Taggers are so good at opening new options for a team and Goth is no exception. For starters, it's one of the two go-to taggers for Webs offense. Also works really well with other mons, like Kangaskhan, that appreciate the defensive, specially-oriented mons being out of the way. It's not at all dead-weight on it's own if you use the TR set and if you don't build a team that crutches on it. I know I'm obviously biased for it but C+ is lol. B is much more fair, imo. (although personally I'd rank it higher)
Lugiass is good for A-, defo one of the first mons to consider for defensive builds and shit.
Fair for Fairy Arceus.
???? Unless Mewtwo runs Shadow Ball, it can't touch Deo-D while Deo-D 3HKOs back. If it does run Shadow Ball you can bitch about team matchup. Dropping to B- or C+ is very fair but C- is incredibly hyperbolic.
I like Kangaskhan a lot but just about every every team naturally packs hard to break checks to it cause Wisp Arceus is so good as well Mega Gengar. It's kinda teammatchup reliant unless you use Goth with it and it doesn't really add THAT much to the team on it's own while eating up your mega slot. It's a very good offensive threat but it's not the easiest thing to add onto a team. IMO, B rank is still best for it.
That stuff was already factored in when sticking in B rank. Keep in mind, to fulfill all the potential niches it has you have to run a sand setter with it which is a pretty large limit. Not every team even needs a spinner to begin with and it's punishable by so many large offensive threats. I don't really think it merits a rise.
Meh, Tar brings a lot of weaks and its a mon that on paper can do a lot but in reality is too fragile to do it all at once. It's a pretty hit or miss mon but a rise to B+ isn't unreasonable.
Fiddle with the movepool more, there's a large number of ways it can punish free turns it gets through all sorts of utility moves and it's really good at getting free turns with the typing and prankster para. It does face competition with keys, though, so a drop to B- sounds fairish but it's a very solid mon.
It's an option on stall but, like with Scizor, relying on it to Pursuit Gar means you have to pack another Xern check. Which is incredibly sad when you are already using the best one there is. Plus, Shadow Ball Gengar just makes you extremely depressed. Maybe B rank, maybe.
Sure
Hyperbole is so bad here. Fightceus is fair where it's at.
Sure
Fuck mega venu until it gets an analysis.
Scizor is a fair drop
while I'm proxy posting...
Bump Smeargle and Shuckle back up to A-. Dropping it to C+ cause it only lays webs is just full of lols, that's like saying Deo S should be C cause it just lays Spikes or Gar should be C rank cause it just traps. Webs is a diverse and powerful playstyle and in absolute need of one of those two mons to function. They are going to be your first consideration for that role. Shuckle / Smeargle are pretty interchangeable and ultimately depend on the webs build.
Drop Zong to B-, it's just a glue mon that you pick when the build's tight, imo.
Clefable up to B-, it's got a pretty solid niche at checking Geoxern and other CM Arc etc. It doesn't really need to switch into GeoXern, only check it once it boosts which is very easy to do. Got a movepool to support the team and your Fairy mon is gong to be Gengar bait regardless.
Scolipede to A-, it's such an amazing lead and it's so goddamn versatile and unpredictable. Kinda struggles with some Defog users but it's not that bad.
Zards up to at least B rank, please. Zard Y is just as viable as a Kyurem-W on it's own, more so when you consider that it can play off of the Zard X fake-out. Zard X is a monster that would easily be some A material stuff if it didn't have competition with Blaze. Despite that competition, Zard X still has its own niches that allow it to last longer, (roost) setup easier, (ex: zek strikes) and not get quite as fucked when the weather changes to rain. (ex: rain lando / ghosty)
-Melee Mewtwo
Tenta I'm fine with re-adding without getting an analysis first since it was on the list last gen. I wouldn't stick it above B-, though. It's a pretty specialized mon since it doesn't actually check anything significant alone. It's key niches are handling hazards and laying t spikes but it's only really optimal for those builds on more defensive teams that need something more sturdy than a Scolipede. C+, imo.
Can we wait til it's passed? I'm not really sure when a team would actually *want* a Talonflame. It just seems sorta Stunfisk-esque in that it can do something but what worth is that? It's greatest niche is at cleaning teams which is pretty damn situational. I guess it can also annoy softer offensive threats? Strong priority isn't actually so hard to find that I want to dig for something as specialized as Talon. If we do add it, I'd rather not see it as high as C+.
Victini's got a legit niche and it's okay overall so C+ sounds fair for it.
Taggers are so good at opening new options for a team and Goth is no exception. For starters, it's one of the two go-to taggers for Webs offense. Also works really well with other mons, like Kangaskhan, that appreciate the defensive, specially-oriented mons being out of the way. It's not at all dead-weight on it's own if you use the TR set and if you don't build a team that crutches on it. I know I'm obviously biased for it but C+ is lol. B is much more fair, imo. (although personally I'd rank it higher)
Lugiass is good for A-, defo one of the first mons to consider for defensive builds and shit.
Fair for Fairy Arceus.
???? Unless Mewtwo runs Shadow Ball, it can't touch Deo-D while Deo-D 3HKOs back. If it does run Shadow Ball you can bitch about team matchup. Dropping to B- or C+ is very fair but C- is incredibly hyperbolic.
I like Kangaskhan a lot but just about every every team naturally packs hard to break checks to it cause Wisp Arceus is so good as well Mega Gengar. It's kinda teammatchup reliant unless you use Goth with it and it doesn't really add THAT much to the team on it's own while eating up your mega slot. It's a very good offensive threat but it's not the easiest thing to add onto a team. IMO, B rank is still best for it.
That stuff was already factored in when sticking in B rank. Keep in mind, to fulfill all the potential niches it has you have to run a sand setter with it which is a pretty large limit. Not every team even needs a spinner to begin with and it's punishable by so many large offensive threats. I don't really think it merits a rise.
Meh, Tar brings a lot of weaks and its a mon that on paper can do a lot but in reality is too fragile to do it all at once. It's a pretty hit or miss mon but a rise to B+ isn't unreasonable.
Fiddle with the movepool more, there's a large number of ways it can punish free turns it gets through all sorts of utility moves and it's really good at getting free turns with the typing and prankster para. It does face competition with keys, though, so a drop to B- sounds fairish but it's a very solid mon.
It's an option on stall but, like with Scizor, relying on it to Pursuit Gar means you have to pack another Xern check. Which is incredibly sad when you are already using the best one there is. Plus, Shadow Ball Gengar just makes you extremely depressed. Maybe B rank, maybe.
Sure
Hyperbole is so bad here. Fightceus is fair where it's at.
Sure
Fuck mega venu until it gets an analysis.
Scizor is a fair drop
while I'm proxy posting...
Bump Smeargle and Shuckle back up to A-. Dropping it to C+ cause it only lays webs is just full of lols, that's like saying Deo S should be C cause it just lays Spikes or Gar should be C rank cause it just traps. Webs is a diverse and powerful playstyle and in absolute need of one of those two mons to function. They are going to be your first consideration for that role. Shuckle / Smeargle are pretty interchangeable and ultimately depend on the webs build.
Drop Zong to B-, it's just a glue mon that you pick when the build's tight, imo.
Clefable up to B-, it's got a pretty solid niche at checking Geoxern and other CM Arc etc. It doesn't really need to switch into GeoXern, only check it once it boosts which is very easy to do. Got a movepool to support the team and your Fairy mon is gong to be Gengar bait regardless.
Scolipede to A-, it's such an amazing lead and it's so goddamn versatile and unpredictable. Kinda struggles with some Defog users but it's not that bad.
Zards up to at least B rank, please. Zard Y is just as viable as a Kyurem-W on it's own, more so when you consider that it can play off of the Zard X fake-out. Zard X is a monster that would easily be some A material stuff if it didn't have competition with Blaze. Despite that competition, Zard X still has its own niches that allow it to last longer, (roost) setup easier, (ex: zek strikes) and not get quite as fucked when the weather changes to rain. (ex: rain lando / ghosty)
-Melee Mewtwo
Whatever I'm not mentioning, I'm agreeing with MM2. (Pls label your replies w/ appropriate mons next time n_n)
You have to realize that Gothitelle is very very bad versus offense/HO. It's literally deadweight vs these teams. Also, most stall teams carry dark types nowadays, so it's actually pretty hard to achieve a sweep. Not to mention, goth is probably most effective vs defog balance which is easily one of the worst team archetype to use. My view on goth is that it's very match up based to extent where it can end up being 100% useless. And, for that reason alone, it doesn't deserve B ranking at all.
C+ for Deo-D
Can you give me examples of sets for Whimiscott that are distinct and good? I do recognize that Whimiscott's move set is massive, but I'm just not seeing the appreciable niche that you would want to use in ubers.
How is it fair that Fightceus is at C+? It just get slaughtered by all of S ranked mons. There's NO reason whatosever to use fightceus over ghostceus, which makes it completely overshadowed. Unless, I'm missing something, then it honestly belongs the realms of bugceus and iceceus where they should be never be used. Unless you can demonstrate situations where fightceus definitely performs better than ghostceus, then it belongs in D.
I disagree with web setters in A-, and I'm sure that Hack He Must can go in depth about this. Regardless, Shuckle should be always higher than Smeargle. Shuckle is far superior option to lay webs, while Smeargle can be shut down with fast taunt. Smeargle has a quite arsenal of problems, while Shuckle is ridiculously reliable at laying webs. IMO, keep a space between them. (EX: Shuckle at C+ and Smeargle at C)
Disagreed w/ Charizard and Scolipede too.
You have to realize that Gothitelle is very very bad versus offense/HO. It's literally deadweight vs these teams. Also, most stall teams carry dark types nowadays, so it's actually pretty hard to achieve a sweep. Not to mention, goth is probably most effective vs defog balance which is easily one of the worst team archetype to use. My view on goth is that it's very match up based to extent where it can end up being 100% useless. And, for that reason alone, it doesn't deserve B ranking at all.
C+ for Deo-D
Can you give me examples of sets for Whimiscott that are distinct and good? I do recognize that Whimiscott's move set is massive, but I'm just not seeing the appreciable niche that you would want to use in ubers.
How is it fair that Fightceus is at C+? It just get slaughtered by all of S ranked mons. There's NO reason whatosever to use fightceus over ghostceus, which makes it completely overshadowed. Unless, I'm missing something, then it honestly belongs the realms of bugceus and iceceus where they should be never be used. Unless you can demonstrate situations where fightceus definitely performs better than ghostceus, then it belongs in D.
I disagree with web setters in A-, and I'm sure that Hack He Must can go in depth about this. Regardless, Shuckle should be always higher than Smeargle. Shuckle is far superior option to lay webs, while Smeargle can be shut down with fast taunt. Smeargle has a quite arsenal of problems, while Shuckle is ridiculously reliable at laying webs. IMO, keep a space between them. (EX: Shuckle at C+ and Smeargle at C)
Disagreed w/ Charizard and Scolipede too.
Some disagreements that I would like to express, mostly about Charizard:
Charizard: Charizard has some flaws, but IMO the main one is that it is just really difficult to justify the teamslot on it. Let's start with Charizard-Y. First of all, I would pretty much never use Charizard-Y over Ho-Oh, who adds actual defensive synergy for a team, still hits ridiculously hard, and has a really spammable STAB option in Brave Bird. Charizard-Y's bulk is mediocre compared to Ho-Oh (Ho-Oh can check stuff like CM Arceus and Xern/Yvel, Zard is hopeless vs them) and its attacks, while powerful, are nowhere near as spammable since Zard-Y lacks good Flying STAB and its Fire Blast is really easy for Kyogre to shut down. Zard's only real advantages are the ability to deal with Grounds better (sort of since Sacred Fire's burn rate still makes them really shaky checks!) and Drought, but honestly Drought is only really useful to mess with Kyogre once upon Mega Evolution, and Kyogre probably isn't a good initial switch into Charizard anyway. If I wanted a hard-hitting special attacker that baits Kyogre I'd much rather use Kyurem-W, who has much better offensive coverage, or even Reshiram, who gets Dragon STAB, isn't as SR weak, and can pull off a similar Sunny Day set. There are quite a few Pokemon in Ubers that resist Fire (Dragons, Kyogre, Ho-Oh...) and Zard-Y is more or less forced to use weak coverage moves to try to deal with them.
"B-but Blast Burn lets Charizard-Y OHKO Support Arceus, it's so PWRFUL!" - Dialga can do the same thing with Roar of Time and a nice pair of Choice Specs, doesn't mean it's worth letting Xerneas having a free turn to set up or giving Kyogre a free turn to own you!
Basically, Zard-Y is (almost) outclassed by Ho-Oh/Kyurem/Reshiram and justifying the teamslot is hardly worth it - not nearly worth B-rank.
Now to Zard-X, otherwise known as the "actually good" variant of Charizard. Zard-X is actually quite threatening, but it's just so hard to justify using over Mega Blaziken. Speed Boost just gives Blaziken so much utility despite having the defenses of a paper bag since it can use Protect to become faster than basically anything, and because Mega Blaze is so strong you basically don't need a Scarfer if using it which frees up teambuilding a lot. Blaziken also boosts faster than Zard because of SD (Zard gets this move too but it lacks Speed Boost!), has a coverage move for whatever you need it to break (Knock Off for Ghosts, Stone Edge for Ho-Oh, HP Ice for Lando/Gliscor), and does not require Defog support, which offsets a lot of Charizard's advantages.
Speaking of advantages, while useful they are not quite as good as they appear. Roost is pretty cool but somewhat offset by Charizard's greater weakness to hazards. The Dragon STAB is very nice but doesn't come into practice a lot since Giratina(-O) is rather rare in this metagame (also Zard is equally if not more screwed by Fairies in the rain and isn't killing Landorus-T with Dragon Claw). The Electric resistance is nice but setting up on Zekrom is VERY risky (and hard because it has Dragon moves and can just Volt Switch). Honestly, the main thing in Zard's favor is the fact it has much higher Defense and Roost which means it isn't as easy to pick off with Extremespeed (Blaze resists Sucker Punch/Bullet Punch so that's not helping), and Dragon STAB which comes in handy sometimes. However, Blaziken is just as threatening as Charizard, much harder to check since it passively gains Speed, and has much more utility for a team. It's just hard to justify using Zard-X over Blaziken.
To conclude, let's look at C-Rank's description:
This sums up Charizard perfectly. It's viable but flawed and mostly outclassed by other Fire-types (Ho-Oh for Zard-Y, Blaziken for Zard-X). C+ is the highest rank it deserves, and even that is because of Zard-X alone.
Arceus-Fighting: I personally think D is too low, but C+ is too high as well. Mid C or C- is fair imo. It retains a good niche in checking Ekiller and TWaving lots of stuff but it's horrible bait for Gengar, can't do anything to Fairies or Ghosts, Yveltal creams it, Ho-Oh and Kyogre lol at it...it just sucks balls in this metagame outside of its niche and its even bigger Gengar bait than Fairyceus and Grassceus combined lol.
Talonflame: This mon is actually kinda legit lol. It actually cleans pretty well with SR support and good Zekrom/Dialga checks (Groudon!!!), can revenge Blaziken which no Scarfer can do, and isn't ever useless since it can U-turn on stuff and set up a priority Tailwind to boost its partners if it really can't do anything itself. C+ is good for it, mostly outclassed by Ho-Oh but Gale Wings is legit. It's also stronger than you think it is (OHKOes MMY after SR which I think even Zekrom has some trouble doing).
I would like to address Scolipede but am not sure since I haven't used it extensively, I think A- is a bit high though.
I also would like more discussion about the Web setters since I think a fair few people would disagree with that large of a bump. TTar and Drill are also fine where they are at imo.
Charizard: Charizard has some flaws, but IMO the main one is that it is just really difficult to justify the teamslot on it. Let's start with Charizard-Y. First of all, I would pretty much never use Charizard-Y over Ho-Oh, who adds actual defensive synergy for a team, still hits ridiculously hard, and has a really spammable STAB option in Brave Bird. Charizard-Y's bulk is mediocre compared to Ho-Oh (Ho-Oh can check stuff like CM Arceus and Xern/Yvel, Zard is hopeless vs them) and its attacks, while powerful, are nowhere near as spammable since Zard-Y lacks good Flying STAB and its Fire Blast is really easy for Kyogre to shut down. Zard's only real advantages are the ability to deal with Grounds better (sort of since Sacred Fire's burn rate still makes them really shaky checks!) and Drought, but honestly Drought is only really useful to mess with Kyogre once upon Mega Evolution, and Kyogre probably isn't a good initial switch into Charizard anyway. If I wanted a hard-hitting special attacker that baits Kyogre I'd much rather use Kyurem-W, who has much better offensive coverage, or even Reshiram, who gets Dragon STAB, isn't as SR weak, and can pull off a similar Sunny Day set. There are quite a few Pokemon in Ubers that resist Fire (Dragons, Kyogre, Ho-Oh...) and Zard-Y is more or less forced to use weak coverage moves to try to deal with them.
"B-but Blast Burn lets Charizard-Y OHKO Support Arceus, it's so PWRFUL!" - Dialga can do the same thing with Roar of Time and a nice pair of Choice Specs, doesn't mean it's worth letting Xerneas having a free turn to set up or giving Kyogre a free turn to own you!
Basically, Zard-Y is (almost) outclassed by Ho-Oh/Kyurem/Reshiram and justifying the teamslot is hardly worth it - not nearly worth B-rank.
Now to Zard-X, otherwise known as the "actually good" variant of Charizard. Zard-X is actually quite threatening, but it's just so hard to justify using over Mega Blaziken. Speed Boost just gives Blaziken so much utility despite having the defenses of a paper bag since it can use Protect to become faster than basically anything, and because Mega Blaze is so strong you basically don't need a Scarfer if using it which frees up teambuilding a lot. Blaziken also boosts faster than Zard because of SD (Zard gets this move too but it lacks Speed Boost!), has a coverage move for whatever you need it to break (Knock Off for Ghosts, Stone Edge for Ho-Oh, HP Ice for Lando/Gliscor), and does not require Defog support, which offsets a lot of Charizard's advantages.
Speaking of advantages, while useful they are not quite as good as they appear. Roost is pretty cool but somewhat offset by Charizard's greater weakness to hazards. The Dragon STAB is very nice but doesn't come into practice a lot since Giratina(-O) is rather rare in this metagame (also Zard is equally if not more screwed by Fairies in the rain and isn't killing Landorus-T with Dragon Claw). The Electric resistance is nice but setting up on Zekrom is VERY risky (and hard because it has Dragon moves and can just Volt Switch). Honestly, the main thing in Zard's favor is the fact it has much higher Defense and Roost which means it isn't as easy to pick off with Extremespeed (Blaze resists Sucker Punch/Bullet Punch so that's not helping), and Dragon STAB which comes in handy sometimes. However, Blaziken is just as threatening as Charizard, much harder to check since it passively gains Speed, and has much more utility for a team. It's just hard to justify using Zard-X over Blaziken.
To conclude, let's look at C-Rank's description:
C-Rank said:
This sums up Charizard perfectly. It's viable but flawed and mostly outclassed by other Fire-types (Ho-Oh for Zard-Y, Blaziken for Zard-X). C+ is the highest rank it deserves, and even that is because of Zard-X alone.
Arceus-Fighting: I personally think D is too low, but C+ is too high as well. Mid C or C- is fair imo. It retains a good niche in checking Ekiller and TWaving lots of stuff but it's horrible bait for Gengar, can't do anything to Fairies or Ghosts, Yveltal creams it, Ho-Oh and Kyogre lol at it...it just sucks balls in this metagame outside of its niche and its even bigger Gengar bait than Fairyceus and Grassceus combined lol.
Talonflame: This mon is actually kinda legit lol. It actually cleans pretty well with SR support and good Zekrom/Dialga checks (Groudon!!!), can revenge Blaziken which no Scarfer can do, and isn't ever useless since it can U-turn on stuff and set up a priority Tailwind to boost its partners if it really can't do anything itself. C+ is good for it, mostly outclassed by Ho-Oh but Gale Wings is legit. It's also stronger than you think it is (OHKOes MMY after SR which I think even Zekrom has some trouble doing).
I would like to address Scolipede but am not sure since I haven't used it extensively, I think A- is a bit high though.
I also would like more discussion about the Web setters since I think a fair few people would disagree with that large of a bump. TTar and Drill are also fine where they are at imo.
I've developed some new opinions since I last posted here. This is on top of what has already been discussed.
Grass Arceus for B
Not a B- mon. Checks Kyogre, possesses useful resists to Ground and Electric, and can viably run one of several coverage moves to handle one or another of its checks, depending on team needs. This is more B+ in my head but at any rate it needs to get out of B-, where it's ranked lower than the likes of Heatran.
Steel Arceus for C+
The Fire, Fighting, and Ground-type weaknesses speak for themselves. The SD set is way outclassed by other Arceus formes, while you would rather use Heatran in any other scenario.
Water Arceus deserves to be one sub rank above Electric and Poison Arceus, which in turn deserve to be 1 sub-rank above Fairy Arceus.
Water Arceus is a phenomenal glue mon, checking to varying degrees Ground-types, Ho-Oh, and Kyogre. It succumbs to the latter 2 in the long run, but that is besides the point; it does brilliantly at holding them off in the interim, giving you a lot more room to pivot and turn momentum in your favor. I view the support set sort of as I would support Dialga; both don't really kill things but provide a brand of team support no other Pokemon can even come close to replicating. There is also the CM Refresh set, which is very threatening in its own right and gives it a another distinct niche. I'm hence nominating it for A.
Eleceus is solidly A-; it is a very solid CM forme but this is balanced by its one-dimensionality. Poison Arceus also deserves A- and Fairy Arceus B+ for reasons Fireburn and Orch delineated (respectively).
Grass Arceus for B
Not a B- mon. Checks Kyogre, possesses useful resists to Ground and Electric, and can viably run one of several coverage moves to handle one or another of its checks, depending on team needs. This is more B+ in my head but at any rate it needs to get out of B-, where it's ranked lower than the likes of Heatran.
Steel Arceus for C+
The Fire, Fighting, and Ground-type weaknesses speak for themselves. The SD set is way outclassed by other Arceus formes, while you would rather use Heatran in any other scenario.
Water Arceus deserves to be one sub rank above Electric and Poison Arceus, which in turn deserve to be 1 sub-rank above Fairy Arceus.
Water Arceus is a phenomenal glue mon, checking to varying degrees Ground-types, Ho-Oh, and Kyogre. It succumbs to the latter 2 in the long run, but that is besides the point; it does brilliantly at holding them off in the interim, giving you a lot more room to pivot and turn momentum in your favor. I view the support set sort of as I would support Dialga; both don't really kill things but provide a brand of team support no other Pokemon can even come close to replicating. There is also the CM Refresh set, which is very threatening in its own right and gives it a another distinct niche. I'm hence nominating it for A.
Eleceus is solidly A-; it is a very solid CM forme but this is balanced by its one-dimensionality. Poison Arceus also deserves A- and Fairy Arceus B+ for reasons Fireburn and Orch delineated (respectively).
Can someone remind dis nob why ghosty is High A rank please?
Somebody ain't afraid of no ghost.
When you find yourself
Against a ghost-ceus
what n00b do ya call?
Li Xiao Long!
Ba baa, ba baa, ba baa, ba baa, ba ba na na-na-na
Baaaaa, ba baa, ba baa, ba baa, ba ba na na-na-na
Probably the best Arceus forme at pulling off Support, Calm Mind and Swords Dance sets (although the last is perhaps often best saved for Sticky Web teams); most Arceus formes cannot conceivably succeed in more than one or two of these roles.
And then it's mostly just the many benefits of the typing. As a Ghost-type, it can freely switch out against Shadow Tag users, as well as threatening each of them in return. Its few resistances and immunities do surprisingly much for it; it counters most Kangaskhan (as they depend on Sucker Punch for coverage against Ghosts but will get burnt instead of dealing heavy damage), can check most Extremekiller Arceus well, is a premier Mega Mewtwo X check and generally fares well against most Mewtwo. In rain it checks Blaziken too, while its few weaknesses allow it to sponge various hits well, checking things like Palkia and Dialga (at least in terms of their attacks, although it may be poisoned in the process). Its typing also allows it to spinblock, which is a much smaller advantage than in the past, but a small bonus to its typing nonetheless. Admittedly, one of its only two weaknesses does limit it, as Yveltal more or less counters it while Darkrai too threatens it significantly.
So all in all it's quite versatile, can run two different sweeper sets that are both dangerous and have largely distinct checks (apart from Yveltal), and has a typing with a few key resistances/immunities, lots of useful neutralities and only two weaknesses, of which only the Dark-type one is significant (most Ghost-types are defensive, it can escape Gengar's Shadow Tag and it threatens almost every Ghost more than they threaten it). Bonuses of the typing in spinblocking and especially in escaping Shadow Tag give an extra edge.
Now I see why Ghosteus is better than Darceus! :3
Phys def clafable also counters ekiller to hell and back.
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
adamant lo + rocks suk.
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