It is not really a mini Venusaur. Its physical bulk is significantly higher than Mega Venusaur, and it gets an item and Regenerator to make it more difficult to take down. Not having Thick Fat is not that big of a deal; Mega Venusaur gets torched by Fire type attacks anyway and the most prominent Ice type attacker is Kyurem-B which gets Teravolt to ignore Thick Fat. Regenerator is more useful in most cases. Tangrowth can patch up its low Special Defense with Assault Vest if you want to. Finally, not having to use your mega slot is a huge reason to use Tangrowth over Megasaur. Grass / Poison Tangrowth actually makes it hard to justify using Mega Venusaur.
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I apologize in advance for the negative-nancy attitude here:
Magic Guard Celebi: This is one of the better theorymons of the bunch, but this might not be as much of a significant buff as one would think. As if being a Grass-type was hard enough, it also has Dark- and Ghost-weaknesses due to the Psychic-typing, which is the main reason for Celebi's fall from OU. Magic Guard is a lot like Natural Cure, but overall better, so this isn't a bad buff by any means, it's just that it doesn't help with its biggest flaw in being Dark and Ghost weak. Toxic immunity is nice, but many top tier threats such as both Mega Charizards, Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Greninja, Gengar, Mandibuzz, and many more are still going to beat it to a pulp.
Volt Absorb Jellicent: This sounds like a good idea at first, but it's not that amazing. With Volt Absorb, Jellicent can beat Rotom-W one-on-one, which is a huge feat on its own, but this will tempt Rotom-W to use Dark Pulse. The extra Ghost and Dark weaknesses also really hold him back from being good. I don't have much to say here.
Grass / Poison Tangrowth: The only 3 justifications to using him over Mega Venusaur is Regenerator, having a free item slot, and the fact that he doesn't take up a Mega slot. He takes physical hits just about as well, and has the same attack, but his special defense is horrendous to say the least, especially for a wall, and his speed is obviously going to hold him back. Having Regenerator is great though, since he's going to switch out constantly from fear of almost everything Celebi's scared of. Having an Assault Vest is also a good idea, since Regenerator is his method of regaining health, and trust me, he's going to be using his ability constantly due to being forced out frequently enough. This will likely get my vote, but I'm still feeling mixed about this one.
Grass / Dragon Sceptile: If Sceptile were a physical attacker and had Tough Claws, or at least had Nasty Plot, then I'd be pretty happy, but this sadly isn't the case. Instead, we give Sceptile a typing that removes one weakness for two more, and magnifies his Ice weakness; not a good trade-off. But offensively, it's almost as bad. Grass/Dragon coverage is stopped dead in its tracks by Steel-types, so his only option to hit them with on the special side is Focus Blast or HP Fire, and even then, Steel-types like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Skarmory are still gonna take Sceptile's hits and go about their business like they do everyday. Also, base 105 special attack only goes so far without a boosting move, so Chansey, Deoxys-D, Clefable, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Venusaur can come in, most can avoid a 2HKO, heal off any damage, and the latter three can hit with super-effective STAB attacks, while the first two can Toxic stall. I really do wish this idea were good, but I just don't see this working.
Magic Guard Celebi: This is one of the better theorymons of the bunch, but this might not be as much of a significant buff as one would think. As if being a Grass-type was hard enough, it also has Dark- and Ghost-weaknesses due to the Psychic-typing, which is the main reason for Celebi's fall from OU. Magic Guard is a lot like Natural Cure, but overall better, so this isn't a bad buff by any means, it's just that it doesn't help with its biggest flaw in being Dark and Ghost weak. Toxic immunity is nice, but many top tier threats such as both Mega Charizards, Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Greninja, Gengar, Mandibuzz, and many more are still going to beat it to a pulp.
Volt Absorb Jellicent: This sounds like a good idea at first, but it's not that amazing. With Volt Absorb, Jellicent can beat Rotom-W one-on-one, which is a huge feat on its own, but this will tempt Rotom-W to use Dark Pulse. The extra Ghost and Dark weaknesses also really hold him back from being good. I don't have much to say here.
Grass / Poison Tangrowth: The only 3 justifications to using him over Mega Venusaur is Regenerator, having a free item slot, and the fact that he doesn't take up a Mega slot. He takes physical hits just about as well, and has the same attack, but his special defense is horrendous to say the least, especially for a wall, and his speed is obviously going to hold him back. Having Regenerator is great though, since he's going to switch out constantly from fear of almost everything Celebi's scared of. Having an Assault Vest is also a good idea, since Regenerator is his method of regaining health, and trust me, he's going to be using his ability constantly due to being forced out frequently enough. This will likely get my vote, but I'm still feeling mixed about this one.
Grass / Dragon Sceptile: If Sceptile were a physical attacker and had Tough Claws, or at least had Nasty Plot, then I'd be pretty happy, but this sadly isn't the case. Instead, we give Sceptile a typing that removes one weakness for two more, and magnifies his Ice weakness; not a good trade-off. But offensively, it's almost as bad. Grass/Dragon coverage is stopped dead in its tracks by Steel-types, so his only option to hit them with on the special side is Focus Blast or HP Fire, and even then, Steel-types like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Skarmory are still gonna take Sceptile's hits and go about their business like they do everyday. Also, base 105 special attack only goes so far without a boosting move, so Chansey, Deoxys-D, Clefable, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Venusaur can come in, most can avoid a 2HKO, heal off any damage, and the latter three can hit with super-effective STAB attacks, while the first two can Toxic stall. I really do wish this idea were good, but I just don't see this working.
Proposing Volt Absorb Jellicent for the Theorymon project. Electric immunities are really good in the current meta with Rotom-W, Thundurus, Zapdos, Manetric, especially one that doesn't give a damn about their common coverage moves, and having reliable recovery to boot. It’s not like as if Jellicent will miss losing either its abilities anyway.
Apr 24, 2014EditDelete
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escarlata
Flavorwise, many jellyfishes in artworks in general are usually depicted with electric stings, so giving it a immunity to said typing isn't exactly farfetched
This is the original suggestion of which I suggest which basically explains all that needs to be explained about purpose and flavor. In terms of taking ghost and dark attacks, the weakness to them isn't too terrible considering it's bulk and access to recover. With full physical bulk investment, it can avoid an ohko from cb Azumarill, or even stall it out with Wow if Azumarill does not run speed to outspeed Jellicent. It can even afford to run all into special bulk and let wow handle physical attackers and letting it avoid the 2hko from gengar's shadow ball factoring in leftovers. These are some of the strongest dark/ghost types around. Note Aegislash and Crawdaunt are left out because it is not like as if Jellicent is the only one with problem with those two. In fact, when invested in special bulk and taunt, Jellicent is able to defeat Aegislash lacking a boosting item. Not that it should try to tank them, but it can if necessary.
Thundurus would have to run Grass Knot, Keldeo can no longer 2HKO with Spec HP Ghost thanks to the HP nerf etc.
Volt Absorb also makes water spout a more viable option; switch in various electric types who generally have no way of hurting Jellicent, and get a nicely powered water spout against the switch in. And as someone else previously mentioned, MandiCent sounds like something frightening to face
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So I noticed that Sceptile isn't getting an awful lot of love, because its power level isn't through the roof. But the reason I suggested Grass/Dragon Sceptile isn't for its power but for its versatility. With epic Speed, reasonable Sp Atk and usable (just) attack, Sceptile has the power to use any of the 3 choice items. He can act as a specially offensive revenge killer, and Set up physical sweeper, a mixed attacker, and hell he even has enough speed to pull off a neat SubSeed set.
The new typing gives him three 4x resistances, allowing him to find solid switch in and set up opportunities, even with his poor bulk. At +2 Sceptile actually hits reasonably hard physically allowing him to abuse his slightly better physical move pool. It also gives Sceptile STAB on dragon pulse, dragon claw and outrage, all of which he can abuse nicely. Grass/Dragon is actually fairly decent STAB, however walled by steel. Mind you, Sceptile can still hit steels with Focus Blast and HP Fire specially or Drain Punch / Brick Break and Earthquake physically. If nothing else this steel problem could possibly make Sceptile a good partner for Magnezone.
Also he has Giga Drain, Drain Punch and Leech Seed for offensive recovery. Unburden lets him take advantage of weak knock offs and pull of some interesting sets such as, White Herb+Leaf Storm, or perhaps an acrobatics set if flying gem ever comes back out.
He now destroys two of his hardest past counters, Lati@s & Lati0s.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 273-322 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 915-1079 (251.3 - 296.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 920-1084 (304.6 - 358.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here is how he fares against a few common steal types.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 385-455 (126.6 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously Sceptile still has his fair share of cons but he now has enough pros to balance them out and become a solid, versatile threat in OU. So please don't sell stuff short too early. Volt Absorb Jellicent doesn't seem too crash hot atm either but I'm sure that someone soon is gonna post a list of all the pokes it now walls with the added immunity, making him seem a lot better too.
Oh and as for my other suggestion, however I still think Magic Guard will greatly help Celebi (Especially offensive sets with life orb), when I suggested it I assumed that Magic Guard granted it an immunity to Perish Song giving Celebi a nice niche, but I now know it doesn't. #Sad :(
The new typing gives him three 4x resistances, allowing him to find solid switch in and set up opportunities, even with his poor bulk. At +2 Sceptile actually hits reasonably hard physically allowing him to abuse his slightly better physical move pool. It also gives Sceptile STAB on dragon pulse, dragon claw and outrage, all of which he can abuse nicely. Grass/Dragon is actually fairly decent STAB, however walled by steel. Mind you, Sceptile can still hit steels with Focus Blast and HP Fire specially or Drain Punch / Brick Break and Earthquake physically. If nothing else this steel problem could possibly make Sceptile a good partner for Magnezone.
Also he has Giga Drain, Drain Punch and Leech Seed for offensive recovery. Unburden lets him take advantage of weak knock offs and pull of some interesting sets such as, White Herb+Leaf Storm, or perhaps an acrobatics set if flying gem ever comes back out.
He now destroys two of his hardest past counters, Lati@s & Lati0s.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 273-322 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 915-1079 (251.3 - 296.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 920-1084 (304.6 - 358.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here is how he fares against a few common steal types.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 385-455 (126.6 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously Sceptile still has his fair share of cons but he now has enough pros to balance them out and become a solid, versatile threat in OU. So please don't sell stuff short too early. Volt Absorb Jellicent doesn't seem too crash hot atm either but I'm sure that someone soon is gonna post a list of all the pokes it now walls with the added immunity, making him seem a lot better too.
Oh and as for my other suggestion, however I still think Magic Guard will greatly help Celebi (Especially offensive sets with life orb), when I suggested it I assumed that Magic Guard granted it an immunity to Perish Song giving Celebi a nice niche, but I now know it doesn't. #Sad :(
Sceptile should never run an attack boosting nature unless it is running Unburden because it loses its niche in outspeeding Keldeo, Latias etc, which leaves it outclassed by Garchomp. Even so, pretty much every dragon in OU still outclassed it by a mile. For one, relying on supereffective hits for kos leaves Sceptile to be desired. I think Sceptile is best suited for an all out attacker set because sweeping sets seems too outclassed as the moment. Cb Sceptile Outrage is weaker than scarf Kyurem-b outrage if anyone wants a fast outrage. I think a specs or life orb set would be the best options
And imo Celebi and Tangrowth's biggest problem are that Venusaur exists. Tangrowth has more physical bulk than Venusaur, but really that's it. It has poor special bulk which means it is harder to switch into than Venusaur. If given an AV, it would no longer be able to use Sleep Powder, which makes it hard to justify using over Ferrothorn. The main reasons for Celebi's decline include: decline in Fighting type attacks; increase in Ghost and Dark type attacks; Venusaur. Magic Guard fails to solve either of these problems, which makes it hard to become more useful even with the buff.
And imo Celebi and Tangrowth's biggest problem are that Venusaur exists. Tangrowth has more physical bulk than Venusaur, but really that's it. It has poor special bulk which means it is harder to switch into than Venusaur. If given an AV, it would no longer be able to use Sleep Powder, which makes it hard to justify using over Ferrothorn. The main reasons for Celebi's decline include: decline in Fighting type attacks; increase in Ghost and Dark type attacks; Venusaur. Magic Guard fails to solve either of these problems, which makes it hard to become more useful even with the buff.
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Hmm... interesting round. 3 grass types? That's weirdly coincidental. Anyway, here are my first impressions:
Magic Guard Celebi: Not being able to bounce back Grass statuses sucks, but it would be great offensively. Could maybe replace Espeon for Baton Passing (Like we need it.), or run LO, but it's not a crazy-good buff in itself.
Volt Absorb Jellicent: While I haven't used Mr. Pringle that much, I've used it enough to know that I don't like it. It's main weaknesses are common as hell (Ghost, Dark, Grass), especially Knock Off, which is NOT a good weakness to have in OU. Volt Absorb would allow it to resist VoltTurn, but I would definitely go to a strong Ghost/Dark attack before an electric one on a Ghost type, but that's just me. As for a special wall, Jellicent is ok, but there are better OU options imo (Cosmic Power Clefable, Goodra, and M-Venusaur, to name a few.) Due to these flaws, I don't see Jellicent becoming good in OU, even with Volt Absorb.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth: Woah, this jumps out at me. It's like a more physically-inclined M-Venusaur, with better recovery in Regenerator, the ability to be mixed, and is easily one of the most notable AV users out there. I think I will definitely be voting for this one, especially since I can use this with an item AND a mega.
Grass/Dragon Sceptile: I was expecting Serperior to come in before Sceptile, but whatever. Grass and Dragon, meet Ice. Ice proceeds to annihilate Grass and Dragon. Only gets Dragon Pulse, unless Draco Meteor is a thing, but Serperior would be better, considering it SHOULD get Contrary. Sceptile is pretty fast, but it's still not that good offensively when compared to other fast OU pokes (Greninja and Noivern say hello.), and I don't think Sceptile with have much of an impact on the OU tier at all, tbh.
These are just my first impressions, but currently I'm rooting for Grass/Poison Tangrowth.
Magic Guard Celebi: Not being able to bounce back Grass statuses sucks, but it would be great offensively. Could maybe replace Espeon for Baton Passing (Like we need it.), or run LO, but it's not a crazy-good buff in itself.
Volt Absorb Jellicent: While I haven't used Mr. Pringle that much, I've used it enough to know that I don't like it. It's main weaknesses are common as hell (Ghost, Dark, Grass), especially Knock Off, which is NOT a good weakness to have in OU. Volt Absorb would allow it to resist VoltTurn, but I would definitely go to a strong Ghost/Dark attack before an electric one on a Ghost type, but that's just me. As for a special wall, Jellicent is ok, but there are better OU options imo (Cosmic Power Clefable, Goodra, and M-Venusaur, to name a few.) Due to these flaws, I don't see Jellicent becoming good in OU, even with Volt Absorb.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth: Woah, this jumps out at me. It's like a more physically-inclined M-Venusaur, with better recovery in Regenerator, the ability to be mixed, and is easily one of the most notable AV users out there. I think I will definitely be voting for this one, especially since I can use this with an item AND a mega.
Grass/Dragon Sceptile: I was expecting Serperior to come in before Sceptile, but whatever. Grass and Dragon, meet Ice. Ice proceeds to annihilate Grass and Dragon. Only gets Dragon Pulse, unless Draco Meteor is a thing, but Serperior would be better, considering it SHOULD get Contrary. Sceptile is pretty fast, but it's still not that good offensively when compared to other fast OU pokes (Greninja and Noivern say hello.), and I don't think Sceptile with have much of an impact on the OU tier at all, tbh.
These are just my first impressions, but currently I'm rooting for Grass/Poison Tangrowth.
I think Magic Guard Celebi would work out pretty well. Losing Natural Cure wouldn't be that big a deal since it's still immune to Spore and can easily absorb other statuses. Just watch out for Thunder Waves and the odd Hypnosis. Offensively you could run a Life Orb with CM / Recover or Leech Seed / Psychic / Grass Knot or Energy Ball. It also has Trick, of course, so there are plenty of options for a TrickOrb set.
Volt Absorb Jellicent is pretty meh. I mean, yeah, it gets that cool immunity, but it'd work maybe once or twice before your opponent starts predicting it. IMO Cursed Body is more fun anyway.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth is my favorite here. With the new additional Poison typing, it gets resistances to Fighting and Fairy, loses its Poison weakness, and becomes immune to Poison itself. So now he's going to be able to switch into a lot more and start hammering away. And dat Regenerator recovery!
Volt Absorb Jellicent is pretty meh. I mean, yeah, it gets that cool immunity, but it'd work maybe once or twice before your opponent starts predicting it. IMO Cursed Body is more fun anyway.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth is my favorite here. With the new additional Poison typing, it gets resistances to Fighting and Fairy, loses its Poison weakness, and becomes immune to Poison itself. So now he's going to be able to switch into a lot more and start hammering away. And dat Regenerator recovery!
Why would you account for Intimidate when TANGROWTH is countering MAWILE...
Offensively, with a Dragon typing, Sceptile gets STAB Dragon Pulse and Dragon Claw. This gives it much better coverage, although its STABs are still resisted by Steel-types. This could be solved by running a third move such as Focus Miss Blast, Earthquake, or HP Fire, allowing Sceptile to have complete coverage.
Defensively, let's look at its weaknesses and resistances with and without the Dragon typing.
Grass:
Weaknesses:
-Fire (2x)
-Flying (2x)
-Ice (2x)
-Poison(2x)
-Bug(2x)
Resistances:
-Water (0.5x)
-Electric (0.5x)
-Grass (0.5x)
-Ground (0.5x)
Grass/Dragon:
Weaknesses:
-Ice (4x)
-Flying (2x)
-Poison (2x)
-Bug (2x)
-Dragon (2x)
-Fairy (2x)
Resistances:
-Water (0.25x)
-Electric (0.25x)
-Grass (0.25x)
-Ground (0.5x)
What does this mean? First of all, Sceptile gets new weaknesses to Dragon and Fairy, plus a 4x weakness to ice, but doesn't get any new resistances in return. It does get 4x resistances from Water, Electric, and Grass, but Sceptile doesn't really care about attacks of those types either way.
But, since Sceptile is a very offensive Pokemon,and because it's my favourite out of the four, my vote is for Grass/Dragon Sceptile.
Defensively, let's look at its weaknesses and resistances with and without the Dragon typing.
Grass:
Weaknesses:
-Fire (2x)
-Flying (2x)
-Ice (2x)
-Poison(2x)
-Bug(2x)
Resistances:
-Water (0.5x)
-Electric (0.5x)
-Grass (0.5x)
-Ground (0.5x)
Grass/Dragon:
Weaknesses:
-Ice (4x)
-Flying (2x)
-Poison (2x)
-Bug (2x)
-Dragon (2x)
-Fairy (2x)
Resistances:
-Water (0.25x)
-Electric (0.25x)
-Grass (0.25x)
-Ground (0.5x)
What does this mean? First of all, Sceptile gets new weaknesses to Dragon and Fairy, plus a 4x weakness to ice, but doesn't get any new resistances in return. It does get 4x resistances from Water, Electric, and Grass, but Sceptile doesn't really care about attacks of those types either way.
But, since Sceptile is a very offensive Pokemon,
No Draco Meteor.
Also, Volt Absorb makes some sense on Jellicent because some jellyfishes can produce mini-shocks with electricity.
On the matter of Jellicent, people seem to overlook the fact that it can now wall special Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Rotom-W, and Raikou without even using a SpD set. This way, Jellicent can instead fully invest in physical bulk in order to tank unSTABed Knock Offs better, from the likes of specially based Thundurus and Mega Scizor. This in itself is a huge plus, which when combined with the ability to hard counter Keldeo, WoW, Taunt, and reliable recovery, i think would make Jellicent a very viable choice once again.
As for Sceptile, don't focus on the added weaknesses, they don't really matter. For ecample, Sceptile already gets fucked from Keldeo's Icy Wind, but with 4x resistance to Water it can at least switch into Keldeo's Water moves. Also, STAB Dragon Pulse really helps Sceptile get past offensive Dragon-types, which used to be some of its best checks. The ability to outspeed anything unboosted outside of Greninja and Deoxys-S is great no matter how you see it, especially with good STABs and coverage options which allow you to OHKO or dent most offesnive Pokemon. A moveset of Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / Rock Slide / (Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire) can 2HKO every offensive Pokemon at worst, making Sceptile a very formiddable threat against offensive teams.
Also, the 4x Water resistance helps against BD Azumarill, and unlike Latios and Latias, Sceptile doesn't have to keep itself in tip top shape just to be able to take one +6 Aqua Jet, as Sceptile takes only 39.7 - 47.1% from +6 Adamant Aqua Jet.
tl;dr Don't treat Sceptile as Latios, it's obvious that it can't really take advantage of its typing defensively. Treat it as Greninja, a fast special attacker that can threaten most offensive Pokemon, while being able to soft-check a few offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo and Azumarill.
There was someone else that had suggested this idea even earlier, and i can't put Isa's name anyway because i already have slated one of his suggestions.
EDIT: And of course, SD + 3 attacks + Unburden is much better with Dragon STAB, and probably a viable set to use against offense, as long as priority users are eliminated. Dragon Claw + Earthquake + Leaf Blade gets really good coverage outside of Skarmory, which is not used on offensive teams anyway. Sitrus Berry would be a good item to help set up and activate Unburden.
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None of these look overwhelmingly good, but certainly useable.
Magic Guard Celebi- It's more-or-less a straight upgrade from the Natural Cure variant. Celebi with Magic Guard doesn't want to be paralyzed, but that's really it. Being able to more easily go on the offensive with recoil-free Life Orb isn't anything to scoff at, either. However, while it improves Celebi, it doesn't really give her tools to work around anything new. Offensive teams can still pick at her seven weaknesses, with the weakness to U-Turn being especially scary. She's better against slower teams, but she wasn't a bad choice against them anyway.
Volt Absorb Jellicent- This needs more credit than it's being given. That's not just another switch-in opportunity, that's turning a weakness into an immunity. While weaknesses to Grass, Dark and Ghost aren't enviable at all, Jellicent still has 9 resistances/immunities to work with. Many Pokemon that can threaten it with Knock Off aren't too keen on tanking a Scald on the way in, either. Overall, this could really give Jellicent the boost it needs.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth- Comparisons to Mega Venusaur are somewhat apt here. The added typing definitely gives Tangrowth better defensive typing, all-in-all. It has a few shortcomings compared to Venusaur, but I can see this working.
Grass/Dragon Sceptile- Oh man, the frail Pokemon can't switch-in on moves it's weak to, it's probably bad. =/ In all seriousness though, this looks decent, but not great. There are a few more switch-in opportunities by virtue of having a few more resistances and quad-resistances, but otherwise the benefits here mainly come from STAB Dragon Pulse and Outrage, neither of which really compliments Grass-STAB all that well. It can threaten a few more things, but is it enough to give Sceptile OU viability?
Magic Guard Celebi- It's more-or-less a straight upgrade from the Natural Cure variant. Celebi with Magic Guard doesn't want to be paralyzed, but that's really it. Being able to more easily go on the offensive with recoil-free Life Orb isn't anything to scoff at, either. However, while it improves Celebi, it doesn't really give her tools to work around anything new. Offensive teams can still pick at her seven weaknesses, with the weakness to U-Turn being especially scary. She's better against slower teams, but she wasn't a bad choice against them anyway.
Volt Absorb Jellicent- This needs more credit than it's being given. That's not just another switch-in opportunity, that's turning a weakness into an immunity. While weaknesses to Grass, Dark and Ghost aren't enviable at all, Jellicent still has 9 resistances/immunities to work with. Many Pokemon that can threaten it with Knock Off aren't too keen on tanking a Scald on the way in, either. Overall, this could really give Jellicent the boost it needs.
Grass/Poison Tangrowth- Comparisons to Mega Venusaur are somewhat apt here. The added typing definitely gives Tangrowth better defensive typing, all-in-all. It has a few shortcomings compared to Venusaur, but I can see this working.
Grass/Dragon Sceptile- Oh man, the frail Pokemon can't switch-in on moves it's weak to, it's probably bad. =/ In all seriousness though, this looks decent, but not great. There are a few more switch-in opportunities by virtue of having a few more resistances and quad-resistances, but otherwise the benefits here mainly come from STAB Dragon Pulse and Outrage, neither of which really compliments Grass-STAB all that well. It can threaten a few more things, but is it enough to give Sceptile OU viability?
Because he said that Earthquake 2HKOes, which it does not if you account Intimidate.
It's clear you're not understanding the issue.
Intimidate works when MAWILE switches into a Pokemon.
But Tangrowth countering means TANGROWTH switches in to MAWILE...
You should have seen that I was pointing out that Intimidate is obviously irrelevant to this situation...
Please think
Sceptile as a Dragon type is mostly outclassed by Noivern which is faster, gets Draco Meteor, and has a better movepool overall. And Noivern is D rank. So Sceptile really isn't viable even with Dragon typing.
There are some good arguments for Jellicent being made here. I don't know if being able to counter a handful of additional threats would cause Jellicent to take a huge jump in viability, but it does counter a unique subset of OU offensive threats.
Numerous posts have pointed out the flaws which remain with Celebi and that Poison typing is a significant buff for Tangrowth.
Tangrowth and Jellicent are the top two here. I'd like to see a few more posts describing the full extent of what Jellicent can do with Volt Absorb.
There are some good arguments for Jellicent being made here. I don't know if being able to counter a handful of additional threats would cause Jellicent to take a huge jump in viability, but it does counter a unique subset of OU offensive threats.
Numerous posts have pointed out the flaws which remain with Celebi and that Poison typing is a significant buff for Tangrowth.
Tangrowth and Jellicent are the top two here. I'd like to see a few more posts describing the full extent of what Jellicent can do with Volt Absorb.
There's also the fact that Sceptile is faster than everything after an Unburden boost, with Modest + 0 Speed it outspeeds base 117 Scarfers, which is really freaking fast. It also lacks a Stealth Rock weakness and is a bit more powerful than Noivern. The only common thing between them would be a Dragon typing and being fast Special Attackers, but the two are different otherwise.
Noivern is SR weak, lacks Grass STAB to destroy common walls / pivots / bulky sweepers on offensive or bulky offensive teams, such as SpD Hippowdon, Azumarill, Clefable, SpD Rotom-W, Manaphy, and Suicune, and can't switch into Electric attacks half as well as Sceptile can. Those are all very imporant advantages Sceptile has.
Also, Noivern can't run an SD Unburden set.
If I had to defend Volt Absorb Jellicent, he can take on Rotom-W, Raikou, Thundurus, Mega Manectric, and Zapdos fairly effectively. But the first three have either Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball to throw around, and Jellicent can't really threaten Zapdos anyways. Mega Manectric is put in check, and Volt Absorb + Ghost typing take on Volt-Turn strategies well enough, but that's all I can really see here.
Sceptile is extremely fast after Unburden, but it is weak to priority Flying and Ice attacks. With 70 / 65 / 85 defenses, it doesn't fare well against priority period. Sceptile's offenses are not very good so it will struggle against bulky offense and stall teams.
Sorry alexwolf, with 85 base attack, a Swords Dance set isn't going to get Sceptile very far. You might as well use SD Talonflame instead since its STABs are more powerful and it gets priority. We all know how great Belly Drum + Unburden Slurpuff is; SD Sceptile is very similar.
Sorry alexwolf, with 85 base attack, a Swords Dance set isn't going to get Sceptile very far. You might as well use SD Talonflame instead since its STABs are more powerful and it gets priority. We all know how great Belly Drum + Unburden Slurpuff is; SD Sceptile is very similar.
I have to agree with others that defensive ability and typing (weak / resistances) isn't Jellicent's weakness. Rather 6th gen Jellicent's is more akin to 5th gen Cress-- yes it is incredibly bulky and powerful defensively, but it doesn't DO enough. It isn't threatening, and it doesn't provide a needed support utility that couldn't be provided by something better.
None of this is fixed by this ability change.
Finally, it doesn't check anything that couldn't be checked by something else. This problem though, IS allieved a bit by this ability in allowing Jelli to check Thundurus-- a Pokemon that can even blow up Venu with Psychic or HP Flying.
Of course Knock Off would screw with Jelli, but a move only found on the less common physical sets is not reason to write off this theorymon's ability to check some hard-to-check top threats.
Still wish it was just a BIT more threatening...
None of this is fixed by this ability change.
Finally, it doesn't check anything that couldn't be checked by something else. This problem though, IS allieved a bit by this ability in allowing Jelli to check Thundurus-- a Pokemon that can even blow up Venu with Psychic or HP Flying.
Of course Knock Off would screw with Jelli, but a move only found on the less common physical sets is not reason to write off this theorymon's ability to check some hard-to-check top threats.
Still wish it was just a BIT more threatening...
I'm not certain of the viability of SD Sceptile, but I felt I should explain that the primary problem with Slurpuff isn't a lack of power - it's a shitty movepool. Slurpuff's physical coverage is basically limited to Play Rough, Return, and Thief (lol). Sceptile, on the other hand, has access to Leaf Blade, Earthquake, Dragon Claw/Outrage, Rock Slide, Drain Punch, and Acrobatics, which gives it good coverage that you can tailor to beat whatever you don't want the rest of the team to worry about.
Sceptile has better coverage, but it can only get to +2 in one turn, so it won't hit that hard. While it has a decent physical movepool, it has 4MSS since there are Pokemon it won't be able to kill with any combination of three moves in tandem with Swords Dance. Also Sceptile will have difficulty activating Unburden since it is so frail. Anything which can hit it for decent damage will probably OHKO it. I just made the comparison to Slurpuff because I don't think either can pull off a boosting set very well.
Unfortunately unstabed dark pulse and shadow ball fails to 2hko even 252/0 variants. And each of the first three have way bigger problems if they opt for dark pulse and shadow ball in the first place since each already suffer move slot issues. If it's existence can actually force said electric types to run unstabed dark pulse to adapt to it, then it is more of a success rather than a limitation.
What jellicent gains from getting volt absorb is not limited to what Volt absorb itself does, and also on what it's increased viability means. Jellicent is by far one of the best checks to Waterfall/Eq/Ice Fang Mega Gyarados and Keldeo. The only reason why it isn't used much is because that's all it can check. But with its new found defensive niche that allows it to check a wider variety of threats, running Jellicent seems less situational, which makes it more of a defensive threat. Sure some of the aforesaid offensive threats can opt for coverage for Jellicent, bUT they will have to give up coverag against venusaur and other defensive threats, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the jellicent user.
Imo jellicent with the Volt Absorb also makes a very good team mate for mega pinsir, for being able to switch into any of its common checks and wear them out with repeated wow and shadow balls.
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Jellicent has Will-O-Wisp to deal with physical attackers and it counters Keldeo and Thundurus, two of the most common special set-up pokemon, what else do you want?
Tangrowth gained new things like resistance to fighting. Poison also hurts any wall or pivot so your point about it not caring is invalid
Sceptile: I don't like it, but what that was bad about it was its weak power, so Dragon typing didn't help it
I think volt absorb jellicent can perform a somewhat decent defencive role in ou. As already said it can wall special attacking thundy, mega manectric, can be a great partner with mandy and mega pinsir and continue to completely wall ou threats such as keldeo. Although it still has a painful weankess to the ever threatning bisharp, it can dump all its ev's in defence, due to walling all sp.attacking threats anyway to at least take some physical hits. It is also a great stop to mega gyara (just remembered.)
just some calcs
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this shows jelliecent can work as a mixed wall, just taking a powerful knock off, will-o-wisping then switching out and coming in on an electric attack from a thundy (bisharp and thundy are so commonly found together), then recovering or finding an appropriate time to recover. Although it would need to be at full health, so its not even a check but can still be used as a last defence.
with defence investment it can also do some work againt other ou physical threats
some calcs presuming jellicent is at full health:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can then will-o-wisp and recover)
Volt absorb jelliecent would be a pain for ho, being able to will-o-wisp bisharp switch ins and destroy momentum by absorbing a thundies tbolt.
Is it enough to make jelliecent a decent ou defencive threat? i dont think so, but it can still fullful a decent defencive niche
just some calcs
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this shows jelliecent can work as a mixed wall, just taking a powerful knock off, will-o-wisping then switching out and coming in on an electric attack from a thundy (bisharp and thundy are so commonly found together), then recovering or finding an appropriate time to recover. Although it would need to be at full health, so its not even a check but can still be used as a last defence.
with defence investment it can also do some work againt other ou physical threats
some calcs presuming jellicent is at full health:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can then will-o-wisp and recover)
Volt absorb jelliecent would be a pain for ho, being able to will-o-wisp bisharp switch ins and destroy momentum by absorbing a thundies tbolt.
Is it enough to make jelliecent a decent ou defencive threat? i dont think so, but it can still fullful a decent defencive niche
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