About your 4th point - hyper offense is obviously going to hate SW, yes. Stall also is not fond because how does stall stop a SD chomp? Either a lati or a scarfed revenge killer, sometimes a rotom-W which doesn't mind SW anyway. I have found many circumstances where a revenge killer is taken out of the equation with SW down.
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Move Sticky Web
- Thread starter Haruno
- Start date
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About your 4th point - hyper offense is obviously going to hate SW, yes. Stall also is not fond because how does stall stop a SD chomp? Either a lati or a scarfed revenge killer, sometimes a rotom-W which doesn't mind SW anyway. I have found many circumstances where a revenge killer is taken out of the equation with SW down.
Ok this is a gimmick set for Masquerain but it really does turn the tide of the match to my favor. It's quite difficult to pull off but its quite rewarding when it does.. I've had number of success with this set.
Masquerain [Bold] @ Rocky Helmet
[31/0/31/0/31/31] [HP:252, Def:252, SP Def:4]
Ability: Intimidate
Move Set:
Power Split
Sticky Web
Roost
U-turn
So basically this is my version of "suicide lead sticky web setter". Although it is not really a Pokemon suited for a lead position, so I advise to send it in the middle of battle or whenever there's a chance. It does a pretty good job against Physical Attackers and Slow Poke Walls. So pretty much send it against Pokemon such as Lucario, Mawile, Absol, Scizor, Kangashan, Aegilash, Chansey, Blissey even Keldeo etc. to do its job. Best bet that its able set up a Sticky Web against them before you die. There are instances I also toy with Physical attackers as Power Split is quite a fun gimmcky move. You could screw up your opponent's base Attack power that could force them to switch out.
I've had quite amazing instances using this fella as with most slow Physical Attackers such as Mega Mawile, Mega Absol, Mega Kangaskan that depended on Sucker Punch to strike first you could set up Sticky Web then proceed to Power Split thereafter even if they choose to use a different move Masquerain will still survived, sometimes it could manage to U-turn back to scout. Same goes to Mega Scizor, Shadow Sneak Aegilash, Breloom. Rocky Helmet is a useful item for it to get additional damage to these Physical attackers.
However keep in mind though that even with invested defenses and intimidate, Masquerain shouldn't be send out against Pokemon that knows any rock move. Masquerain could also be just a burden and deadweight if the match isn't in your favor. But once it does it job its quite rewarding. Still it could've been a better support Pokemon if it weren't for that abysmal 60 base Speed. It could've been a contender if it reaches the bench mark of 80-90 but either way it is a decent Sticky Web user with its plethora of support move. For teammate, it will do great if its supported by a screener or a cleric (paralyzer), trick room oriented, or speed booster supporter (tailwind).
Blah.. I might blurted out a nonsense set, however Masquerain with its useful ability, passable defenses and amazing support moves could hold its ground against top physical threats and set up sticky web or force a switch out. It may not be ideal for a OU spot but this gimmick its quite amusing to be witnessed. It walls like a pro!
Though if anyone could have a better EV Spread for it it would very much be appreciated to know.
Masquerain [Bold] @ Rocky Helmet
[31/0/31/0/31/31] [HP:252, Def:252, SP Def:4]
Ability: Intimidate
Move Set:
Power Split
Sticky Web
Roost
U-turn
So basically this is my version of "suicide lead sticky web setter". Although it is not really a Pokemon suited for a lead position, so I advise to send it in the middle of battle or whenever there's a chance. It does a pretty good job against Physical Attackers and Slow Poke Walls. So pretty much send it against Pokemon such as Lucario, Mawile, Absol, Scizor, Kangashan, Aegilash, Chansey, Blissey even Keldeo etc. to do its job. Best bet that its able set up a Sticky Web against them before you die. There are instances I also toy with Physical attackers as Power Split is quite a fun gimmcky move. You could screw up your opponent's base Attack power that could force them to switch out.
I've had quite amazing instances using this fella as with most slow Physical Attackers such as Mega Mawile, Mega Absol, Mega Kangaskan that depended on Sucker Punch to strike first you could set up Sticky Web then proceed to Power Split thereafter even if they choose to use a different move Masquerain will still survived, sometimes it could manage to U-turn back to scout. Same goes to Mega Scizor, Shadow Sneak Aegilash, Breloom. Rocky Helmet is a useful item for it to get additional damage to these Physical attackers.
However keep in mind though that even with invested defenses and intimidate, Masquerain shouldn't be send out against Pokemon that knows any rock move. Masquerain could also be just a burden and deadweight if the match isn't in your favor. But once it does it job its quite rewarding. Still it could've been a better support Pokemon if it weren't for that abysmal 60 base Speed. It could've been a contender if it reaches the bench mark of 80-90 but either way it is a decent Sticky Web user with its plethora of support move. For teammate, it will do great if its supported by a screener or a cleric (paralyzer), trick room oriented, or speed booster supporter (tailwind).
Blah.. I might blurted out a nonsense set, however Masquerain with its useful ability, passable defenses and amazing support moves could hold its ground against top physical threats and set up sticky web or force a switch out. It may not be ideal for a OU spot but this gimmick its quite amusing to be witnessed. It walls like a pro!
Though if anyone could have a better EV Spread for it it would very much be appreciated to know.
I've been running a variation of
Ariados@focus sash
nature: adamant
ability: insomnia
-Sticky web
-toxic spikes
-sucker punch
-poison jab
since the beginning of 6th gen. It's...not atrocious. Sticky web is for obvious reasons. Toxic spikes gives you something else productive that other sw users don't have, which is nice when you're an ariados. Sucker punch is useful for a pokemon with awful base speed. That leaves you with one moveslot for a STAB attack. I went with poison jab because the 30% poison chance is probably the most damage ariados can hope to do, and it threatens fairies and grass types, who make up the few pokemon ariados can switch in to.
Other options: shadow sneak if sucker punch isn't your cup of tea. But non-stab you might as well be doing the 0 damage from a failed sp. You can also run a defensive spread with black sludge to attempt multiple hazard set ups. Once again that basically defeats the purpose of sucker punch though, as it does no damage without investment. Last gen I ran bug stab with swarm, as it couples well with focus sash and sucker punch as a last ditch effort to prevent a sweep, so that's always an option.
Play style depends on your opponents team. Generally you use your sash to set up your preferred hazard, then sucker punch and die. Toxic spikes is nice because even it's spun away it leaves a residual effect on the spinner, where as once the web is gone it's gone. Due to insomnia, you can beat opposing smeargles and any breloom not carrying rock coverage. Since sticky web is more useful mid game when your sash may be broken, you have to find a way to use ariados' nifty 4x resists to fighting and grass and 2x resist to fairy to find a switch in. Florges in particular invites ariados in, although with out black sludge you can still be worn down rather quickly.
Ariados@focus sash
nature: adamant
ability: insomnia
-Sticky web
-toxic spikes
-sucker punch
-poison jab
since the beginning of 6th gen. It's...not atrocious. Sticky web is for obvious reasons. Toxic spikes gives you something else productive that other sw users don't have, which is nice when you're an ariados. Sucker punch is useful for a pokemon with awful base speed. That leaves you with one moveslot for a STAB attack. I went with poison jab because the 30% poison chance is probably the most damage ariados can hope to do, and it threatens fairies and grass types, who make up the few pokemon ariados can switch in to.
Other options: shadow sneak if sucker punch isn't your cup of tea. But non-stab you might as well be doing the 0 damage from a failed sp. You can also run a defensive spread with black sludge to attempt multiple hazard set ups. Once again that basically defeats the purpose of sucker punch though, as it does no damage without investment. Last gen I ran bug stab with swarm, as it couples well with focus sash and sucker punch as a last ditch effort to prevent a sweep, so that's always an option.
Play style depends on your opponents team. Generally you use your sash to set up your preferred hazard, then sucker punch and die. Toxic spikes is nice because even it's spun away it leaves a residual effect on the spinner, where as once the web is gone it's gone. Due to insomnia, you can beat opposing smeargles and any breloom not carrying rock coverage. Since sticky web is more useful mid game when your sash may be broken, you have to find a way to use ariados' nifty 4x resists to fighting and grass and 2x resist to fairy to find a switch in. Florges in particular invites ariados in, although with out black sludge you can still be worn down rather quickly.
In the current OU metagame, Sticky Web is near useless and sometimes even counterproductive (Bisharp says, "Hello".).
Add this to Kairyu's points, and the fact that nothing really good has access to Sticky Web, and it becomes more of a liability than an asset outside of low ladder.
I'm not trying to say that Sticky Web is terrible itself, but the current OU metagame just goes completely against it. Maybe it'll find a niche, but I haven't seen it yet.
Add this to Kairyu's points, and the fact that nothing really good has access to Sticky Web, and it becomes more of a liability than an asset outside of low ladder.
I'm not trying to say that Sticky Web is terrible itself, but the current OU metagame just goes completely against it. Maybe it'll find a niche, but I haven't seen it yet.
sticky web's niche is making not fast stuff fast. suddenly stuff like diggersby, crawdaunt and mega heracross are a lot more threatening, assuming you don't have a bajillion flying types on your team.
Not just Flying types ruin Sticky Web, but also Levitators, PRIORITY, Defiant (Bisharp loves Sticky Web), bulky Pokemon that couldn't care less about the Speed drop, and the fact that Defog and Rapid Spin are everywhere,
Just think about it-- how would it make sense that a SPIDER WEB couldn't catch bugs.
If the opposing team had a lot of levitators, flying mons, and Bisharp then couldn't you just not set it up, and you can't just use priority moves the whole game. Plenty of mons don't have priority anyway, if the opponents bulky mons get SWed then it just means that your bulky mons will be faster, and Defog/Rapid Spin isn't worse to SW then it is to other hazards.
Only two remotely viable Pokemon learn Sticky Web. Galvantula and Smeargle. Those things I mentioned are very common in OU, and Galvantula/Smeargle essentially waste a team slot.
Actually, Galvantula was rejected by QC, and was removed from the Viability list altogether. The only two viable Pokemon with Sticky Web are Smeargle (C) and Shuckle (B-).
In my opinion Galvantula is awesome with Sticky Web, but it's best if you've got a Spinner, Entry Hazards will severely cripple it.
A set like this should work pretty well. :D
Nature: Modest / Timid
EV Spread: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Ability: Compoundeyes
-Bug Buzz
-Thunder
-Sticky Web
-Volt Switch/ Energy Ball / Giga Drain
I'll be having a look at Shuckle, anyone able to suggest some sets I can experiment with?
A set like this should work pretty well. :D
Nature: Modest / Timid
EV Spread: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Ability: Compoundeyes
-Bug Buzz
-Thunder
-Sticky Web
-Volt Switch/ Energy Ball / Giga Drain
I'll be having a look at Shuckle, anyone able to suggest some sets I can experiment with?
No, that is simply not accurate at all. In fact, if Deo-D and Deo-S ever got banned, Smeargle would replace them as the SR + Spikes user (unless Custap got released again, then Skarm, but that's besides the point). Smeargle can Dark Void Mandibuzz, explode Spinners and Defoggers, and set up SR + Webs reliably. Webs is a hard hazard to utilize properly, but it's certainly viable, and Smeargle (and Shuckle) are both not a waste of a team slot if you want to utilize Webs.
Look at Gen 5, where all Deoxys are banned. Smeargle is NOT the premier Spiker/Stealth Rocker; Ferrothorn is (and sometimes Forretress).
But back on topic, with the majority of OU being immune, too bulky to care, or flat out benefitted by Sticky Web, it is far too inconsistent to be anything more than a gimmick in high level play.
BenTheDemon
Let's agree to disagree. Sticky Web has been more than a "gimmick" for me. It has consistently peaked me top 3 on all three ladders. (PO about 1600-1650, PS about 1950-2000, and PB... is a joke right now since not that many competitive players, but still around top 3 -- not #1 since SwagPlay is legal there.) Unless the top positions on the ladder aren't "high level" play or anything, I think it's more viable then you are giving credit. Have you even tried building a Sticky Web team? (Like I said, it's more of a personal experience with the playstyle thing; so we'll agree to disagree.)
In Gen5, Skarm took that role. However, Smeargle has a QC-approved analysis on Gen5 for hazard setting (Spore / SR / Spikes / Filler), so get your facts straight please.
(Before you argue usage KyuB almost never got used in Gen5 so usage means jack-all; Smeargle would replace Deos if they got banned, especially since Custap Berry is no longer legal in Gen6, which is what made Skarm a viable setter -- I'm also referring to HO and not Bulky Offense, so why are you mentioning Ferrothorn (and Forretress lol, although some ran the Custap Berry setter; but it isn't as great as Smeargle for HO setting...)? Can that thing even act as a suicide hazard lead?)
Let's agree to disagree. Sticky Web has been more than a "gimmick" for me. It has consistently peaked me top 3 on all three ladders. (PO about 1600-1650, PS about 1950-2000, and PB... is a joke right now since not that many competitive players, but still around top 3 -- not #1 since SwagPlay is legal there.) Unless the top positions on the ladder aren't "high level" play or anything, I think it's more viable then you are giving credit. Have you even tried building a Sticky Web team? (Like I said, it's more of a personal experience with the playstyle thing; so we'll agree to disagree.)
In Gen5, Skarm took that role. However, Smeargle has a QC-approved analysis on Gen5 for hazard setting (Spore / SR / Spikes / Filler), so get your facts straight please.
(Before you argue usage KyuB almost never got used in Gen5 so usage means jack-all; Smeargle would replace Deos if they got banned, especially since Custap Berry is no longer legal in Gen6, which is what made Skarm a viable setter -- I'm also referring to HO and not Bulky Offense, so why are you mentioning Ferrothorn (and Forretress lol, although some ran the Custap Berry setter; but it isn't as great as Smeargle for HO setting...)? Can that thing even act as a suicide hazard lead?)
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How the fuck does a Pokemon with access to Spore, Sticky Web, Stealth Rock, and Magic Coat waste a team slot? I have a lot of experience with Smeargle, and I can promise that Smeargle is indeed a great pokemon, and not waste a team slot.
The majority of OU??? Are you completely ignoring Charizard X, Jolly Bisharp, Excadrill, and Greninja? Things almost every team has?
Sticky Web has a decent niche this gen, don't knock it.
Charizard X is immune when in base forme.
I'm not even going to acknowledge the Jolly Bisharp comment.
Excadrill Spins it away and is still fast as fuck with a Scarf or Sand Rush.
Greninja is susceptible to Sticky Web, but it's still too easy to spin or Defog away.
Just because it has a niche doesn't mean that it's not gimmicky.
-> By "fast as fuck," you mean 302 speed at best, and that's assuming if it carries a balloon or a scarf? It's ridiculously easy to prevent this thing from getting a Rapid Spin off, especially assuming the Adamant sets, or the sets without balloon or scarf.
-> "It's still too easy to spin or Defog away" shows that you have never used Sticky Web, or at least a properly build Sticky Web team, in your life. With that argument, why use hazard lead DeoD? What is the point of SR + Spikes if hazards are "still too easy to spin or Defog away?" Clearly a Sticky Web team has to adapt to Defog / Rapin Spinning, much like every other HO team in existence. I'd say that it's much harder to spin hazards from a Webs team than a DeoD team, too, since Excadril and Starmie are both easily revenge killed after -1 speed. Talk about what you know, please. Like with Smeargle (which you didn't address). As for Defogging, there are several ways to combat them, and I shouldn't even have to discuss it honestly.
-> Greninja is still susceptible, Defog / Spin support or not, it's a valid point stop trashing on it because of the theorymonning you did in my above point. Just like Charizard and Talonflame are weak to SR, hazard control or not. It's still a weakness it possesses (Talonflame and Charizard are still SR weak even if you run hazard control, since hazard control can fail; Greninja is still weak to Sticky Webs even if you run hazard control, since hazard control can still fail). Having the support only helps combat the weakness -- which, might I remind you, Sticky Web can also run things to combat Defog / Spin support, so that is a very moot point.
-> Sticky Webs has a niche. I don't see how "gimmicks" matter in this discussion -- when has it ever mattered? All that matters is effectiveness. Once upon a time, in Gen5, Bisharp and Shuca Berry SR Jirachi and SD Feraligatyr and Sash Breloom were all gimmicks. So, seriously, I don't see your point there. Actually use Sticky Webs before saying it's bad (or gimmicky or whatever).
You're actually wrong about everything there. Jolly Bisharp was dumb cause of defiant, but fast as fuck excadrill!? You mean 302 speed at best? Shurtugal pretty much said everything else because he actually fucking uses Sticky Web
I've actually seen a bit of a revival of Sticky Web on the ladder (with Mental Herb Shuckle, since Galvantula really sucks), and I know for a fact it can potentially work. You basically need a very strong Bisharp counter (usually Bisharp himself, with Low Kick), a couple of things to beat flyers and levitaters (like Mamoswine, Greninja, or Thundurus) and a really powerful wallbreaker (usually, Mega Medicham or Mega Heracross). Remember, even though a lot of things don't mind Sticky Web, they tend share quite a few weaknesses, and can therefore be dealt with without too much difficulty. Sticky Web doesn't affects a portion of the metagame, but that portion is not hard to beat with only a few Pokemon. So yes, Sticky Web teams can work, but you do need to cover up your weaknesses, just like any other team. I might post replays involving a Sticky Web team in the future to prove my point.
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I think using Sticky web with Stealth Rock is a good way to go especially if you have a Bishrap. Rapid Spin is not an issue with Sticky Web, but since most defoggers are immune to sticky web but weak to SR, having Bisharp with Stealth Rock on the field will put pressure on them and make them think twice before defogging.
At that point you should just make a DeoSharp team and drop the webs, since you now have 2/3 mons supporting a super-situational move.
Bisharp likes webs being on the opposite side of the field, since it can spam Knock Off with more ease and also smack dat Terrakion with Iron Head before it can move. Also you know, you can just run Mental Herb Shuckle or Smeargle instead of Deoxys+Galvantula and free a team slot.
Its not situational, Shuckle can set up both safely and them put pressure on the other player. It's similar to the DeoSharp but with webs, which benefits Bisharp any any slower attacker Pokemon in the team like Gyarados. And Rapid Spinners won't enjoy the speed drop at all.
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