Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

[Ninja Charizard]

I just noticed that manaphy is getting friggen UU usage, again. This is unacceptable. What special attacking setup sweeper do poeple use instead of manaphy? I know thundy gets a lot of use (no surprises there, pretty good mon), but is thundy really the only special setup sweeper? There aren't really a lot of NPers in OU tho besides thundy (most toges I see are either scarfed or defensive paraflinch). There are a few CMers like clefable and sometimes keldeo (manaphy > keldeo imho, but they are two rather different mons). Any suggestions?

Sorry to break that to you, but if Manaphy is the second best special sweeper the metagame can offer, then special sweepers suck. People are just moving to physical sweepers, because they outclass Manaphy badly.

This thing is just overrated in my opinion. It just doesn't have enough speed to sweep, and it's attack power before the Tail Glow is pathetic, so it's not really a team player. It's very one dimensional, it pratically requires Tail Glow to function, and it can be easily countered if you predict the obvious Tail Glow, due to its low speed and lack of priority. I know it also has a defensive set that is viable, but the defensive set is not that great to make it OU.

It's a beast on rain teams though, I'll give it that.

But in the end, I think everyone has tried to use Manaphy once, realized it's just underwhelming, moved to something else and never touched it again. It's been months since I was last swept by it. It has simply disappeared from the ladder.

 

[Inspirited]

Outspeeding 0 Speed Hippowdon.

You shouldn't have to do this anyways since hippo is IVed to outslow min Aegislash in the first place

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Here are some calcs I made, analysing Special set-up sweeper usage in both OU and 1760 OU :

OU usage

-Quiver Dancer Volcarona : 5.18%
CM users :
-Espeon : 3.6%
-Sylveon : 2.2%
-Clefable : 2.1%
-Gardevoir : 1.15%
-Keldeo : 1.11%
-Alakazam : 0.99%
-Latias : 0.66%
-Landorus : 0.5%
-Latios : 0.48%

Tail glow Manaphy : 1.94%
NP users :
-Thundurus : 1.79%
-Togekiss : 1.28%
-Thundurus-T : 0.54%

OU 1760 usage

-Quiver dancer Volcarona : 2.4%
CM users :
-Clefable : 4.36%
-Espeon : 4.29%
-Sylveon : 3.8%
-Keldeo : 3.05%
-Suicune : 1.64%
-Landorus : 1.635%
-Gardevoir : 1%
-Latias : 0.47%
-Alakazam : 0.43%

Tail glow Manaphy : 2.2%
NP users :
-Thundurus : 4.44%
-Togekiss : 0.95%

The first thing that strikes me is the apalling usage percentage of Espeon, but surely it is due to BP teams (it's time to nerf it), and the same goes for Sylveon (however this one is more viable imo). Moreover, I'm really disappointed by the Landorus, Suicune and KELDEO usage in "lower" tiers, so I really think this deserves an analysis in this thread (or in the comparison project one). I don't really have the time nor the "skill" imo to make this analysis myself, I don't even know which one is the best, but obviously it's not Espeon. I only hope someone might make this analysis I'm not able to do, based on those calcs, in order to make people realize they do silly things.

 

[WebBowser]

Here are some calcs I made, analysing Special set-up sweeper usage in both OU and 1760 OU :

OU usage

-Quiver Dancer Volcarona : 5.18%
CM users :
-Espeon : 3.6%
-Sylveon : 2.2%
-Clefable : 2.1%
-Gardevoir : 1.15%
-Keldeo : 1.11%
-Alakazam : 0.99%
-Latias : 0.66%
-Landorus : 0.5%
-Latios : 0.48%

Tail glow Manaphy : 1.94%
NP users :
-Thundurus : 1.79%
-Togekiss : 1.28%
-Thundurus-T : 0.54%

OU 1760 usage

-Quiver dancer Volcarona : 2.4%
CM users :
-Clefable : 4.36%
-Espeon : 4.29%
-Sylveon : 3.8%
-Keldeo : 3.05%
-Suicune : 1.64%
-Landorus : 1.635%
-Gardevoir : 1%
-Latias : 0.47%
-Alakazam : 0.43%

Tail glow Manaphy : 2.2%
NP users :
-Thundurus : 4.44%
-Togekiss : 0.95%

The first thing that strikes me is the apalling usage percentage of Espeon, but surely it is due to BP teams (it's time to nerf it), and the same goes for Sylveon (however this one is more viable imo). Moreover, I'm really disappointed by the Landorus, Suicune and KELDEO usage in "lower" tiers, so I really think this deserves an analysis in this thread (or in the comparison project one). I don't really have the time nor the "skill" imo to make this analysis myself, I don't even know which one is the best, but obviously it's not Espeon. I only hope someone might make this analysis I'm not able to do, based on those calcs, in order to make people realize they do silly things.

First off, phenomenal calcs all around. My thoughts on the "appallingly high" usage of espeon is viable as a special sweeper only because it is one of the best abusers of defense and speed pass, which is what scoli provides. Espeon actually has passable special bulk, good speed, but awful phys defense. Once that gets patched up, espeon actually becomes very difficult to take down, especially if it's running morning sun. As was noted repeatedly in the BP thread, it does not take many boosts to get stored power to rather stupid levels, and combine this with the speed and defense boost, makes espeon darn near unrevengable. The fact that espeon manages to be dangerous even with a mere quickpass is enough to make it OU viable, as can be seen here.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116105693

Say what you will about how the meta "should be", at the moment espeon holds its own as a CMer with team support (namely in the form of scolipede).

As for lando, I'm not a big fan of CM lando simply because it's too frail, either go rock polish, gravity, or all out attacker imo. CM suicune is great, but kinda struggles with the amount of vaporeons running around, I don't use keldeo enough to have an opinion on CM keldeo. CM clefable is one of the top CMers in the game atm, for very good reasons, Sylveon is actually inferior to espeon imo due to lack of recovery (it gets wish, but that's it), which is a must on a CM set imo.

 

[skies]

You shouldn't have to do this anyways since hippo is IVed to outslow min Aegislash in the first place

I just took it from the analysis :p.

 

[Hclegend]

I'm SO gonna get shit for this but...

Don't use this:
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252HP/252Speed/4Spd
Spore/Dark Void
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Sticky Web
Why it's bad:
Where do I begin? The fact that nearly every single one attempts to Spore you? The fact that it is easily countered by a quick Taunt/MagicBounce/MagicCoat/GrassType? It's godawful stats? (seriously, fucking Galvantula has more offensive presence). I can see why people would run this however... Well IN GEN 5. When the Deoxys Formes were banned from OU, this was pretty much the best option for filling this niche (lol JK Ferrothorn was better) but now.... Considering the prioirity infested meta, the Grass immunity to Spore and the unbanning of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, there is no room in OU for the Artist Pokemon.

Instead, use this:
Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 228 SDef / 248 HP / 4 SAtk / 28 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Infestation/Toxic/Power Split
(thanks to PlatypusPrincess for the set!)
Why it's better:
Shuckle is he definition of "Tank". Colossal defences (I think it's 20/230/230), great utility as a StelthRock/Web Setter, and is pretty cute too! Ahem, and while Shuckle can pull off some pretty fun sets (Power Swap Rollout?) it's generally better to stick with hazard setting. And it's STILL better than Smeargle thanks to Sturdy (Which is a Focus Sash without the Item Loss) leaving it room for something like Leftovers or something (again, I don't know Shuckle :/)
Edit: it can also trap with Infrstation and troll with Encore, or Toxic things to death, or even half the opponents attacking stats with Power Split
Conclusion:
Seriously. Smeargle is massively outclassed in this priority infested meta and it is barely usable. So please stop using it. There are WAY better options like the previously mentioned Shuckle, and is generally kinda meh.

 

[skies]

No, I very strongly disagree with the theory that Smeargle is bad. It has Sticky Web and Spore, which Deoxys-D does not, that in itself gives it a niche. And while Deoxys-D is a great hazard setter, but the ability for Smeargle to put something to Sleep - effectively crippling it. And that's not even the best set, the best set is Sticky Web / Stealth Rock / Spore (or Dark Void) / Magic Coat with an EV Spread of 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe. Then you've got the Baton Pass set, and I guess the FEAR set? Anyways, Smeargle is only outclassed by Deoxys-D if not running Sticky Web or Spore in my opinion.

 

[Hclegend]

No, I very strongly disagree with the theory that Smeargle is bad. It has Sticky Web and Spore, which Deoxys-D does not, that in itself gives it a niche. And while Deoxys-D is a great hazard setter, but the ability for Smeargle to put something to Sleep - effectively crippling it. And that's not even the best set, the best set is Sticky Web / Stealth Rock / Spore (or Dark Void) / Magic Coat with an EV Spread of 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe. Then you've got the Baton Pass set, and I guess the FEAR set? Anyways, Smeargle is only outclassed by Deoxys-D if not running Sticky Web or Spore in my opinion.

Y'know what? These are very well reasoned arguments. It IS true that Smeargle gets both SW and Spore. However, Sticky Web is kinda.... Shit. I used Galvantula for a while, and the Sticky Web was not worth it, mainly because either quite a lot of threats like Mega Charizard, Thundurus-I (Which has Prankster anyway) and the like avoid it, or they're slow enough that it doesn't matter like Aegislash, Hippodon, Mega Mawile and so on. As for Spore, it's walled by every Grass type/anything with Overcoat (Mandibuzz) and is generally unreliable, especially with Magic Coat Deo-D running around (Or Taunt). I can see WHY you would think it is at least decent, but as for me.... It's stats and predictability just make it horrible.... Outside of BP (Even then... It's not outright REQUIRED)(And while Smeargle DOES get Magic Coat, I have never seen anyone use it, they always go for Spore.)

 

[skies]

Y'know what? These are very well reasoned arguments. It IS true that Smeargle gets both SW and Spore. However, Sticky Web is kinda.... Shit. I used Galvantula for a while, and the Sticky Web was not worth it, mainly because either quite a lot of threats like Mega Charizard, Thundurus-I (Which has Prankster anyway) and the like avoid it, or they're slow enough that it doesn't matter like Aegislash, Hippodon, Mega Mawile and so on. As for Spore, it's walled by every Grass type/anything with Overcoat (Mandibuzz) and is generally unreliable, especially with Magic Coat Deo-D running around (Or Taunt). I can see WHY you would think it is at least decent, but as for me.... It's stats and predictability just make it horrible.... Outside of BP (Even then... It's not outright REQUIRED)(And while Smeargle DOES get Magic Coat, I have never seen anyone use it, they always go for Spore.)

Magic Coat's on the analysis, actually, so. And Sticky Web completely shits on Offensive teams, it's only useless against teams that are Flying spam (which has seen a huge decrease in popularity) and with Bisharp. And you yourself said Dark Void, which can you use to break through Grass-types which also have decreased in usage. Flying-types are also immune to it, but seriously, it makes Greninja, Keldeo, and Terrakion, amongst other things, much easier to deal with. I can see why you would think Smeargle is shit, it's pretty average, but it is not outclassed entirely by Deoxys-Defense in my opinion.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Why it's bad:
Where do I begin? The fact that nearly every single one attempts to Spore you? The fact that it is easily countered by a quick Taunt/MagicBounce/MagicCoat/GrassType? It's godawful stats? (seriously, fucking Galvantula has more offensive presence). I can see why people would run this however... Well IN GEN 5. When the Deoxys Formes were banned from OU, this was pretty much the best option for filling this niche (lol JK Ferrothorn was better) but now.... Considering the prioirity infested meta, the Grass immunity to Spore and the unbanning of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, there is no room in OU for the Artist Pokemon.

You forgot something about Smeargle: it has shit abilities. The only good one it has is Moody, and that's... well... banned. Technician is normally a great ability, but with absolutely laughable 20/20 Offenses, Technician gets you nowhere. Your best option (outside of Ubers, anyway) is Own Tempo, and that ability is entirely obsolete now that Swagger is banned. Pressure for Deoxys-D is at least decent, and it actually works in its favor due to its walling presence.

 

[Magnemite]

You forgot something about Smeargle: it has shit abilities. The only good one it has is Moody, and that's... well... banned. Technician is normally a great ability, but with absolutely laughable 20/20 Offenses, Technician gets you nowhere. Your best option (outside of Ubers, anyway) is Own Tempo, and that ability is entirely obsolete now that Swagger is banned. Pressure for Deoxys-D is at least decent, and it actually works in its favor due to its walling presence.

How does pressure even matter on Deo-D when it only ever stays alive for the first few turns?

Anyway, while Deoxys-D is much, much better than Smeargle, they're so different that you can't really say that Deo-D directly outclasses Smeargle. Deoxys-D can't Sticky Web (though smeargle is a bit outclassed as a web user by the mighty SHUCKLE l0l) or SmashPass, which are Smeargle's niches.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

You forgot something about Smeargle: it has shit abilities. The only good one it has is Moody, and that's... well... banned. Technician is normally a great ability, but with absolutely laughable 20/20 Offenses, Technician gets you nowhere. Your best option (outside of Ubers, anyway) is Own Tempo, and that ability is entirely obsolete now that Swagger is banned. Pressure for Deoxys-D is at least decent, and it actually works in its favor due to its walling presence.

Deo-D takes like three attacks at best before getting KOed, and Florges is the #1 most used pokemon in UU yet operates without a functioning ability (not even the mighty DAMP.)

Smeargle isn't bad just because of its ability, it's bad because everything about it is bad except its movepool. I mean you can do creative (and probably shitty) shit like a Scarf set with Parting Shot/DBond/Trick/Healing Wish Lunar Dance, but as a hazard setter there's little reason to use it over Deo-D or Deo-S, or even Skarmory.

It gets Spore but why Spore something when you can just nuke it with Psycho Boost?
It gets Sticky Web but Smeargle lasts two turns because it can't take a hit, but always runs sash so it can (once.) You take a hit, down to one HP, you spore your opponent and get a free turn. Opponent is probably going to switch to something faster and KO you next turn, so choose: Stealth Rock or Sticky Web, you only get one. And honestly, pebbles are better.

 

[Ze Diglett]

How does pressure even matter on Deo-D when it only ever stays alive for the first few turns?

I never said Pressure was a fantastic ability, I'm saying it's better than any of Smeargle's (legal) abilities. Especially considering neither of them do anything.

 

[WebBowser]

If I HAD to use smeargle, I would run taunt, spore, magic coat, and parting shot with a focus sash. This guy is basically guaranteed to grab momentum during that crucial first turn, regardless of who he's up against. That's helpful.

 

[Hclegend]

You forgot something about Smeargle: it has shit abilities. The only good one it has is Moody, and that's... well... banned. Technician is normally a great ability, but with absolutely laughable 20/20 Offenses, Technician gets you nowhere. Your best option (outside of Ubers, anyway) is Own Tempo, and that ability is entirely obsolete now that Swagger is banned. Pressure for Deoxys-D is at least decent, and it actually works in its favor due to its walling presence.

That just drives my point further! But I did think of an alternative if you want Sticky Web: Galvantula! Shuckle!
That's really about it though. You still shouldn't be using Smeargle with better options up the ass.

 

[PlatypusPrincess]

I'm SO gonna get shit for this but...

Don't use this:
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252HP/252Speed/4Spd
Spore/Dark Void
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Sticky Web
Why it's bad:
Where do I begin? The fact that nearly every single one attempts to Spore you? The fact that it is easily countered by a quick Taunt/MagicBounce/MagicCoat/GrassType? It's godawful stats? (seriously, fucking Galvantula has more offensive presence). I can see why people would run this however... Well IN GEN 5. When the Deoxys Formes were banned from OU, this was pretty much the best option for filling this niche (lol JK Ferrothorn was better) but now.... Considering the prioirity infested meta, the Grass immunity to Spore and the unbanning of Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, there is no room in OU for the Artist Pokemon.

Instead, use this:
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers/RedCard/MentalHerb
Ability: Pressure
252HP/252Speed/4SpD (or something like that)
Magic Coat/Thunder Wave
Spikes
StealthRock
Taunt
Or if you want Sticky Web...
Shuckle @ Leftovers/RedCard/Mental Herb/BerryJuice
Ability: Sturdy
252HP/252Def/4SpD
Stealth Rock
Sticky Web
Toxic?
Er.... Gastro Acid? (I don't know Shuckle, okay?)

Why it's better:
Deo-D can come in several times during the match thanks to its supreme 60/160/160 defences as well as its ability stack hazards thanks to said defences. It also created the (in)famous DeoSharp core. As well as its versatility. You never really know what youre up against with this wall of a Pokemon. Does it have Magic Coat? Does it have Taunt? You won't know until it uses it (or you have a Ditto or something) and its just.... Great!
Shuckle is he definition of "Tank". Colossal defences (I think it's 20/230/230), great utility as a StelthRock/Web Setter, and is pretty cute too! Ahem, and while Shuckle can pull off some pretty fun sets (Power Swap Rollout?) it's generally better to stick with hazard setting. And it's STILL better than Smeargle thanks to Sturdy (Which is a Focus Sash without the Item Loss) leaving it room for something like Leftovers or something (again, I don't know Shuckle :/)
Conclusion:
Seriously. Smeargle is massively outclassed in this priority infested meta and it is barely usable. So please stop using it. There are WAY better options like the previously mentioned Deo-D and Shuckle, and is generally kinda meh.

Don't worry, as someone who has been running Shuckle for decent sucsess, I can give you a Shuckle set.

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 228 SDef / 248 HP / 4 SAtk / 28 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Infestation/Toxic/Power Split

This set gives Shuckle maximum overall bulk, lets you switch in 5 times in Rocks, set up these hazards and can create switch in oppurnities with the last two moves, while being immune to taunt once and mess up with set up sweepers with encore and non set up sweepers if you decide to run Power Split.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Hclegend I think you compared two pokemon that fulfill totally different role, beside the fact that they both are SR setters. As Chesnaught said, Smeargle has a niche in having Spore+Sticky web, two moves that Deoxys-D don't have. Imo, if you really want to make a comparison, compare it with Shuckle, but not with Deoxys-D. I think Shuckle is a really viable SR+Sticky web setter, and I saw a really cool team with it in the dark horse project. But still, Smeargle has spore and whatever you want for the last slot (mainly magic coat), so it has its own niche. Even if you said spore is blocked by overcoat+grass type, you should stay aware that with flyspam grass-type usage has decreased, and the only common grass pokemon are Ferrothorn, MVenu and Chesnaught/Breloom to a lesser extent. And Mandibuzz has overcoat, that's all. All of those pokemon are usually seen in Defensive and slow playstyle, where Sticky Web isn't required. So definitively, Smeargle is viable.

 

[Hclegend]

Hclegend I think you compared two pokemon that fulfill totally different role, beside the fact that they both are SR setters. As Chesnaught said, Smeargle has a niche in having Spore+Sticky web, two moves that Deoxys-D don't have. Imo, if you really want to make a comparison, compare it with Shuckle, but not with Deoxys-D. I think Shuckle is a really viable SP+Sticky web setter, and I saw a really cool team with it in the dark horse project. But still, Smeargle has spore and whatever you want for the last slot (mainly magic coat), so it has its own niche. Even if you said spore is blocked by overcoat+grass type, you should stay aware that with flyspam grass-type usage has decreased, and the only common grass pokemon are Ferrothorn, MVenu and Chesnaught/Breloom to a lesser extent. And Mandibuzz has overcoat, that's all. All of those pokemon are usually seen in Defensive and low playstyle, where Sticky Web isn't required. So definitively, Smeargle is viable.

I see, I'll remove the Deo-D section, because it fills a different role (not THAT different mind you, but different enough)
And I KINDA wrote about Shuckle, but I've never used it so I can't say too much apart from what ive seen.

 

[Mastoise]

Don't use reshiram in OU > http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119122629 Use mega Charzard X it's a much better option :)

 

[skies]

Don't use reshiram in OU > http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119122629 Use mega Charzard X it's a much better option :)

This belongs in the silly replays thread :)

 

[WebBowser]

Don't use reshiram in OU > http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119122629 Use mega Charzard X it's a much better option :)

This belongs in the glitches and bugs thread. I'm not sure who loses out, prolly the randoms ladder for having to deal with a bunch of level 100 mons.

 

[Flamer]

The offensive LO Deo-S Set should be changed to include Knock Off over HP Fire. Knock Off hits and cripples Aegi, Chansey, and many more mons. In a Genesect-less Meta there isnt much to justify HP Fires use, Deo-S coverage hits Fire weak mons as hard as HP Fire does anyway (Apart from Ferro, who you should never stay in on).

 

[WebBowser]

The offensive LO Deo-S Set should be changed to include Knock Off over HP Fire. Knock Off hits and cripples Aegi, Chansey, and many more mons. In a Genesect-less Meta there isnt much to justify HP Fires use, Deo-S coverage hits Fire weak mons as hard as HP Fire does anyway (Apart from Ferro, who you should never stay in on).

Uhhhhh.... why wouldn't you taunt it? I mean, yeah gyro ball might happen, but it's a pretty safe bet that it's going to try to SR.

 

[Flamer]

Uhhhhh.... why wouldn't you taunt it? I mean, yeah gyro ball might happen, but it's a pretty safe bet that it's going to try to SR.

Deo-S doesnt have room for taunt on the offensive set and SR on ferro is decreasing in use, it wants to run all of Leech Seed, Gyro Ball, T-Wave, Protect, Power Whip and SR but doesn't have enough moveslots. It's not worth risking paralysis or 85% of your health gone just to block hazards on something that might not even have hazards and that wasn't the point I was making, HP Fire isn't as useful as Knock off in terms of general utility and has lost its No.1 use of beating Scarf Gene.

 

[dkkc19]

Magic Coat's on the analysis, actually, so. And Sticky Web completely shits on Offensive teams, it's only useless against teams that are Flying spam (which has seen a huge decrease in popularity) and with Bisharp. And you yourself said Dark Void, which can you use to break through Grass-types which also have decreased in usage. Flying-types are also immune to it, but seriously, it makes Greninja, Keldeo, and Terrakion, amongst other things, much easier to deal with. I can see why you would think Smeargle is shit, it's pretty average, but it is not outclassed entirely by Deoxys-Defense in my opinion.

And Scarf Garchomp, Sticky web is amazing against it.