Doubles Stage 3 — Suspect Discussion

[Not Canadian]

Since we're currently in the no Mega-Kangaskhan ladder and I haven't played my fair share of Doubles leading up to the suspect, bear with me if I end up making a fool of myself. That said, I had to test out Mega-Kanga for myself with finally and a few other Doubles players so I could give it a little more thought before posting this.

Is Mega-Kangaskhan versatile? Indispensable on Doubles teams? Yes.

Does it restrict teambuilding? Is she broken? Does it make the metagame centralized around her so every poor sap wanting to start out in Doubles has to run M-Kanga or be obliterated? No, no, and no.

The thing is, M-Kanga can't win games by herself just like that. She needs support as much as she supports a team -- sure, it's got 125 Attack, but the only real way she's going to lead a clean sweep is if it pulls off a PuP or two, and you can check that with status, Intimidate, offensive pressure forcing her to attack instead of boosting, or flat-out counter with a common threat: Terrakion and Keldeo come to mind. In that sense, she's just like a lot of the sweepers that populate Doubles: she's got a fairly reasonable pool of checks/counters as well as things she checks/counters, but God forbid M-Kanga take on the whole meta, especially with that 4MSS it has. (Picking off a team one-by-one is harder in Doubles for obvious reasons, and if for some reason you've chosen to run a spread move like Rock Slide or Earthquake to expedite the sweep, you're trading out a chunk of counters for another.)

In a nutshell, what I find is that the result of a metagame where M-Kanga has been removed is the same old weather teams, the same old TR teams, and then you have teams that are scrambling to fill the void M-Kanga leaves behind. It's not that just because people splash M-Kanga onto their teams a lot that makes it too good by definition -- it's used because it fits a slot readily, much like Rotom-W does in OverUsed. No one ever complained to you that Rotom-W was broken, right? Even then, it's on a lot of OU teams -- 1760+ or not -- who appreciate the versatility and momentum it can provide. In short, nothing's changed for Doubles -- except we're building teams without a Pokemon that, even though we can live without, has proven itself time and time again. As Pinoy Pwnage has helpfully said right above, removing M-Kanga has only minimally increased diversity, because it's the same old ruddy teams except people are just using a substitute that works more or less. That doesn't change anything save for cutting up M-Kanga's usage stats and dividing it amongst a whole bunch of other 'mons who can't exactly step up to good old Momma's role perfectly.

To finish, Audiosurfer did say something earlier that I liked:

Maybe I'm just weird, but I've never in my life looked at a team after building it and wondered whether I had enough Kangaskhan checks, so personally I'm not buying an argument that it restricts teambuilding.

Funny thing, I was just thinking that. A good team is one that is prepared in some way or form to handle whatever comes at it, honestly. If you can look at a team and think -- or rather, know that it's capable of handling its weaknesses, you're good to go. The solution to M-Kanga doesn't have to be a ban, but rather a logic shift: from an outward perspective ("in what ways is M-Kanga a negative presence in the metagame?") to an inward one ("what reasons are there which might have caused M-Kanga to crush my team?").

During the OverUsed discussion on Baton Pass, someone once complained "why should I have to run Haze Quag/Taunt Thundurus-I and waste a good moveslot?" The response was something like, "if you're not prepared for a team that's become prevalent in the metagame by making just one small change to your team, then clearly you're not teambuilding exactly right." It is my opinion that this is what's happening right now.

Granted, I don't think this very well applies to everyone pro-ban, but I for one can't see M-Kanga as too powerful for this meta. If there's some relevant argument I must have invariably missed along the way, you're going to have to help me with that, sorry.

 

[Darkmalice]

I also think a reason as to why someone should (in a sense of "if they are voting to ban it this would be why", not "everyone should vote to ban Kanga because of this") be voting to ban Kangaskhan is the concept of Fake Out + Power-Up Punch. A play I have never seen anyone in the Smogon Doubles community make is to Power-Up Punch their partner on Kanga's first turn on the field. The concept behind this is that Fake Out will almost always provoke a Protect, double Protect or switch (back in Gen V I saw double Protects a lot and still do in SmogDubs to be honest). Power-Up Punching your partner allows you to avoid any Protect mind games whatsoever and get a +2 boost. If they double Protect (or Protect + switch) they are almost guarenteed to lose something to one of Kanga's attacks, if they Protect with one Pokemon and attack Kanga with the other its not usually going to work out for you all that well. It's risky and its bold, but it does a great job when utilized properly. It also removes almost any "safe play" from the opponent's realm of possibility. This is basically saying that Kangaskhan can limit your safe options on its first turn on the field to more or less 0, with a few exceptions. I've said the mind games go back to the Kangaskhan player as well, but it remains true that they will usually have a "safe" option that you won't have turn 1, which does give them a slight advantage. I definitely think everyone who ends up voting should keep these four arguments in mind when doing so.

It is definitely a viable move, but it is not easy to pull successfully. If even one of the opposing Pokemon attacks you, you would have been better off using something else, so many players opt to make the safer move. This is especially true considering that, in the lower end of the ladder, people don't even think about Protecting against Fake Out, and the higher end of the ladder, players may still double attack even if they expect Fake Out to avoid being set up on. This is also ignoring the fact that many Pokemon simply don't run Protect. That Rotom you thought was going to Protect against Fake Out was actually a Scarf, and it has now burnt your Kang! Pretty much any other move is usually safer.

I have, in my most recent VGC tournament, used Mega Kang, predicted a double Protect, and accordingly PuPed my other Pokemon. It's a harder decision to make than you give it credit for. But if it works, it's awesome.

#megakangmindgames

REAL LIFE REPLAY OF WHAT I JUST SAID =]

I am definitely trying this on the Kang ladder when it is set up.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

I'm leaning more to mega kangaskhan is not broken, and does not need to be banned.

I've played doubles for a while before the suspect test, and now I've made the reqs for it. While there was a bit more diversity I noticed in a mega-kangaless meta, I don't think mega kanga is broken to the point that it needs to be banned. Sure, it has priority and an insanely high attack stat, but other megas can easily replace mega kanga like medicham, mawile, or blaziken. I pretty much agree with Audiosurfer's post in that I've never had to specifically prepare for a counter to mega kanga, what I have to deal with it is not something niche enough that it can't deal with other doubles threats, heck, I've used the same team I use in doubles in the suspect test.

Is mega kangaskhan a very powerful threat in doubles? Yes.
Is mega kangaskhan restricting the metagame? No, not very much.
Is mega kangaskhan as broken as it is in singles and needs to be banned? No.

 

[realiti]

Kanga is really not broken. People have learned how to adapt around it. For example, some people decided to start using Mega Gengar to burn it and cripple it for the rest of the match. Also, like Pinoy stated, Substitute Aegislash is a underrated mon that can really shine and nab a free sub under Mega Kanga. If you dig deeper, many counters can be discovered. Many counters have already been stated, so I will not repeat them.

To people who think Kanga limits teambuilding, that is a false statement. I like to consider it a challenge to make an anti-Kanga team because it makes it more fun on how to play against Kanga. Like Temporaryanonymous stated, there is more diversity in a Kangaless meta, but people should come to realize that those teams can also work in a Kanga meta too. It's easy to fit a Kanga counter onto your team just because of how good the counters are in the first place. Also, Kanga is prone to double targeting and has a bit of 4 move syndrome.

So while it may be broken in singles, it certainly isn't in doubles.

 

[DTM]

I do agree that Mega Kangaskhan is a very good Pokemon. However, I don't think it is necessarily broken. One of the factors which deem a Pokemon ban worthy is if it restricts teambuilding. For me, Mega Kangaskhan doesn't. Sure I take it into account when I'm making my team, but I don't take it into account more than any other Pokemon. Even without Kanga, you still take note of threats in the game and prepare for them. Kanga is just one of those threats (although a powerful one). It is not broken to the point where you have to run an obscure Pokemon from a limited set of counters. I won't repeat the many counters already mentioned. Even though there is a bit more diversities in playstyles in a Kanga-less meta, I think that is the result of many players being forced to not use a Kanga team. However, those unique playstyles still work with Kanga. People just use those less because they flock to Kanga, not because they decreased in viability. So in my honest opinion, as it stands, I don't think it is broken.

 

[mimi]

Mega Kangashan, to me, is in no way broken. Arguments have come up that it restricts team building, and that may be fine, but like many others I have never looked at a team and went "shit i am fucking destroyed my mega kanga". I feel that with a solid team and smart playing it's fairly easy to deal with. Generally when building, Kanga isn't the first mega I think to use either, the list of Mega Pokemon that have yet to be explore in doubles is amazing, and most of them are also very good, as evident with the outburst of mega Gengar atm. I feel that people turn to Kanga because they know how to use it, I mean a retard could click fake out .... but most of the time when people use it I feel like it's done very poorly and they try to use it as a glue mon. Despite what many people have said Kanga does need support of it's team for it to be successful within this metagame. Pokemon like Terrakion(very underused), Landorus-t, Sub Aegi(it's best set), Mega Gengar, other fighting-types, Cb gyarados, other willo users... and so on are some of the many Pokemon that can be used to shut it down.


My opinion on Mega Kanga is that it's a very strong Pokemon, that certainly is one of the more potent threats in the tier. But like many other Pokemon in the history of this game should, and will not ever be banned. It's a top threat that could be in some peoples opinion banned, but to others it's isn't. GSC Snorlax dominated the metagame, BW Keldeo, BW Reuiniclus, XY OU Aegislash.. just to name a few. Are all Pokemon that fit in the same criteria that Mega Kanga does in Doubles. All of these Pokemon are very good, and could have many reasons to be banned, but would probably end up in being un healthy for the metagame and not enough people think it should be banned, so they sit pretty in a little grey area between ou/ubers.

 

[cxinlee]

Im just going to put my two cents.

As for the argument about individual counters like sub aegislash, top etc., which can be applied to both singles and doubles, I'm curious to why it makes Kanga in singles broken, but not doubles.

I think the main thing I have against Kanga is that it's so easy to wear down. It's normal typing (and it doesnt have spectacular bulk) means it'll be taking decent damage from most attacks, so its especially vulnerable to double attacking/ fake out/ speed control (All of which are particularly common in doubles). I essentially agree with laga that offensive pressure is the best way to beat kanga.

 

[trc]

There have been a lot of arguments in both this thread and the other Mega Kangaskhan thread so I believe the majority of ground has been covered. I personally don't believe Mega Kangaskhan is broken, though it is something of a borderline case. The fact that using Mega Kangaskhan prevents other Mega Pokemon from being used isn't a reflection on those Pokemon's viability (apart from in comparison to Mega Kangaskhan itself). For example, if no one used say, Mega Ampharos because everyone used Mega Kangaskhan, then Mega Ampharos is by no means a bad Pokemon at all, regardless of its small usage, it's just easier to win/build/play with Mega Kangaskhan, which is a fair point, but it doesn't mean that Mega Ampharos is bad. I don't think it should be logical to say that it restricts the use of other Mega Pokemon. As for Mega Kangaskhan's own ability on the battlefield, it is undoubtedly a great Pokemon, and like Mizuhime said, it dominates the metagame, but it is easily comparable to other dominating Pokemon from their respective metas, such as the mentioned BW2 Keldeo, BW1 Reuniclus, XY Aegislash, GSC Snorlax, DPP Starmie etc etc, you could find a huge amount of Pokemon filling a similar category that are defining enough for teams to must back ways to deal with it or they auto-lose, yet not broken enough due to a healthy amount of Pokemon that can hinder it from doing its job successfully. Mega Kangaskhan falls under this category easily in my opinion.

Also Mega Kangaskhan in singles was broken because it could easily PuP with its bulk and then it would have about 3 safe switch-ins. In Doubles with checks being more common, two Pokemon to target it, different playstyles, a prevalence of Intimidate, the smart use of Protect, and not every switch-in having to worry about taking a truckload of damage, Mega Kangaskhan is dramatically different.

 

[champetero]

I've seen a lot of people saying if kanga gets banned other megas will suddenly become viable. tbh that argument gives me cancer every time i see it. If kanga gets banned megas like mega aggron and mega medicham won't become suddenly good. They will still keep all there weaknesses like mega medicham is still going to be frail. Like even if kanga gets banned the most common mega will be charizard-Y or something and medicham and aggron will still have a hard time being the mega of a team and even if a person wants to use that mega they can use it fine in a meta with kanga. It's a stupid view that people have that they have to like always put mega kanga in a team because half the time there is a better mega for your team.

 

[Enki]

Well, is mega kangaskhan a threat?
Is mega kanghaskan unrestrainable??
I'll write a couple of lines about this main topic.
I think mega kangaskhan is a super super strong mega evolution, he has got a very nice movepool with nice attack stat and appreciable bulkyness, his trait is mad broken because double hit doesn't only increase the damage than 1 hit, but can broke the sub.
Mega kangaskhan was banned mothes ago in OU, and I think this is correct, but why we could ban this mega evolution?
I think in doubles, smogon doubles or VGC, there is a high usage of intimidators, and we know mega kangaskhan is a phisical pokè, and this is a useful way to block him.
Mega kangaskhan isn't a fast pokemon, and there are lot of mons that can easily outspeed him, and he cannot abuse of trick room.
But... Mega kangaskhan has power up punch, a nice move for him, because he can give damage to the enemy and can double boost him and wow it is better than swords dance, and I think it is a big problem, because nothing can stop kangaskhan if he is on +1/+2, a return or a double edge destroy pretty much every team.
I think another problem is the flinch's power of rock slide, it isn't very problematic, but it is haxy and hateful.
Conclusions?
In smogon doubles I think there is much methods to stop kangaskhan, such as aegislash, in doubles aegislash hasn't only attack's moves, or intimidators...

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Well, is mega kangaskhan a threat?
Is mega kanghaskan unrestrainable??
I'll write a couple of lines about this main topic.
I think mega kangaskhan is a super super strong mega evolution, he has got a very nice movepool with nice attack stat and appreciable bulkyness, his trait is mad broken because double hit doesn't only increase the damage than 1 hit, but can broke the sub.
Mega kangaskhan was banned mothes ago in OU, and I think this is correct, but why we could ban this mega evolution?
I think in doubles, smogon doubles or VGC, there is a high usage of intimidators, and we know mega kangaskhan is a phisical pokè, and this is a useful way to block him.
Mega kangaskhan isn't a fast pokemon, and there are lot of mons that can easily outspeed him, and he cannot abuse of trick room.
But... Mega kangaskhan has power up punch, a nice move for him, because he can give damage to the enemy and can double boost him and wow it is better than swords dance, and I think it is a big problem, because nothing can stop kangaskhan if he is on +1/+2, a return or a double edge destroy pretty much every team.
I think another problem is the flinch's power of rock slide, it isn't very problematic, but it is haxy and hateful.
Conclusions?
In smogon doubles I think there is much methods to stop kangaskhan, such as aegislash, in doubles aegislash hasn't only attack's moves, or intimidators...

ok so i just wanted to say that, as stated in many previous posts, that intimidate doesn't actually stop kanga, because it can just power up punch on the switch and be at +1, or at neutral still if burned on the same turn. you mention power up punch later on but from the way you worded the first bolded part, i dont think you considered it not being effective.

in the second part i bolded, you mention rock slide. however, mega kanga do not and should not run rock slide or earthquake, as they dont get affected by parental bond in doubles. this is one argument of the non-ban side, as it is forced to target only one poke.

 

[Enki]

ok so i just wanted to say that, as stated in many previous posts, that intimidate doesn't actually stop kanga, because it can just power up punch on the switch and be at +1, or at neutral still if burned on the same turn. you mention power up punch later on but from the way you worded the first bolded part, i dont think you considered it not being effective.

in the second part i bolded, you mention rock slide. however, mega kanga do not and should not run rock slide or earthquake, as they dont get affected by parental bond in doubles. this is one argument of the non-ban side, as it is forced to target only one poke.

Sorry, but it was only an example, I think i was wrong :/
Well I know intimidaters couldn't stop kangaskhan, but is one of the little ways we have.
If there is the suspect there is a reason, correct?

 

[realiti]

Sorry, but it was only an example, I think i was wrong :/
Well I know intimidaters couldn't stop kangaskhan, but is one of the little ways we have.
If there is the suspect there is a reason, correct?

The reason is that some people refuse to believe that Kanga is checked or walled by many pokemon.
Seriously, if you look deeper, many interesting solutions can be found such as Jellicent and Jirachi. They're also easy to fit on a team, whether it be Hyper Offense or TR or Bulky Offense. Kanga is also prone to double targetting and burns, making it easier to wear down

 

[Ultimathunder]

So, after playing the suspect ladder, I do find that the metagame is healthier without Kanga. I feel like, while it might not be overpowered in the strictest sense by itself, it is just extremely easy to use and easy to support. Unlike some other megas like Mawile, Kangaskhan has only one weakness, which is very easy to cover considering the popularity of Pokemon like Lando-T and Togekiss. The argument against its ban which states that it offers no support is flat out wrong, because the strongest fake out in the tier, ability to break and hit substitute users, counteract intimidate through power-up-punch, strong STAB in return, and powerful priority in Sucker Punch are all what I would call good offensive support. And Kanga also provides support indirectly by being very easy to support, as stated earlier. If I'm building a team around a non mega involving core/Pokemon, the first option is probably Kanga. While it might not always be the best Mega option, it will probably the one I'll have to least change around my team for if I am already 3-4 Pokemon in making it.

Another argument against banning Kanga I'd like to respond to- people have been saying how easy it is to fit Kanga checks on a team, which is quite true. However, how effective are those checks to counter a decently supported Kangaskhan? I remember Pwnemon saying that he had 14 checks to Kanga over 4 teams, which is quite good. But, you would think you would never lose to Kanga if you have 3-4 checks on it for a team. But does that happen? If one takes another top Mega evo, such as Charizard-Y, how many checks do you feel like you need to check that, in comparison to the number of checks you feel like you need to check Kanga? I feel that one needs more checks for Kanga than other other Pokemon in the meta to check it properly.

Also, I would like to point out that while i agree with many other people that the standard Kanga set is probably the only _good_ set, changing the set even a little can beat out many Kanga checks, depending on the change. I remember Matt using Facade Kangaskhan against me once, which surprised my Rotom-W, and then could sweep through the rest of my team well. Thus, Kanga checks cannot be fully reliable in their job of checking it.

 

[Pocket]

AuraRayquaza, the opportunity cost to using PuP is quite huge. This is a piss-weak move, even coming from Kangaskhan. Unless Kangaskhan has Protect and is supported by Follow Me users or Dual Screen & Heal Pulse users, Kangaskhan will often find itself unable to capitalize on the attack boosts (since it stomached some irreversible damage in the process).

Granted there are ways to nab some free PuP boosts without much support (ie knocking out a weakened mon with PuP), but let's not make it sound like Kangaskhan can nab these attack boosts risk-free without significant support, especially against a good player. I say Intimidate is still an effective way of nerfing Kangaskhan, forcing it to switch out, use up a turn to PuP, or simply accept that it is going to dish hits 50% softer.

 

[Bughouse]

One of the biggest concerns I had about Mega Kangaskhan coming into this test is the imbalance of ways to handle it depending on what playstyle you're using. The only true hard counters (barring weird Crunch sets that don't exist) for Mega Kanga are Ghosts with Will-o-Wisp. Put simply, these ghosts don't fit on offensive teams, only balanced and bulkier ones. More offensive teams were practically forced to have a Terrakion (occasionally Keldeo, Infernape, or something else I forgot) along with clever use of Intimidate and maybe some tacked on status to handle Mega Kangaskhan. And while there's absolutely nothing wrong with those Fighting types, it seemed to me that more offensive teams struggled if Mega Kanga was paired with the right teammate (Togekiss, Scizor, Talonflame, etc) that could very easily (too easily imo) stop those Fighting types from performing their job successfully.

But then, out of the blue, came Mega Gengar. While it's certainly not required on more offensive teams to protect against Mega Kangaskhan, nor should it be your only check, played correctly, Mega Gengar not only counters Kangaskhan... It even turns it into a liability, burning it by force, since it can't switch out to a teammate, like it can against any other WoW user. Nor is it deadweight against teams without Kangaskhan. I've used one team on the ladder some (as well as against papai noel in R7 of seasonals) and found it performs great even without its main intended target there to trap.

This revelation of Mega Gengar being great for offensive teams, just like Gourgeist or Jellicent might for defensive ones, makes me think it's not quite as distorting of a metagame force as I thought it might have been. We'll see if I still think that after Mega Kangaskhan returns when I get to try out Mega Gengar teams on the Kangaskhanite ladder.

 

[Lohgock]

I just recently began to get into Dubs but the difference between testbattles against players from IRC using Kanga and those on the ladder without Kanga are very noticable.

Not only is there a difference in the way teams are built, people need to fit 2-3 Kanga checks in their teams no matter what, but also how battles are going.
Most of the time, if there is a player using Kanga and another not using it, the Kanga player has an immediate advantage. Since Kanga poses such a threat right of the batt and you simply don't want it to get a PuP off or simply dealing tons of damage, the non-Kanga player needs to lead in an "anti-Kanga" way, limiting his lead options a lot and allowing the Kanga-player to capitalize by that fact. Even though the non-Kanga player is perfectly aware, that his opponent may not lead with Kanga, he can't afford leading with two Pokemon which don't beat Kanga lead because he might just lose the game before turn 1 starts or have an immediate disadvantage.

Another fact when playing against Kanga is, that, when on the field, you need to attack it. In almost any scenario you're main priority has to be wearing Kanga down asap, which again gives your opponent a lot of opportunities to capitalize from. Kanga poses a huge threat just by being on the field so Kangas partner seems irelevant. Since the non-Kanga player focuses on beating Kanga, Kangas partner may aswel has has a good time since it's not going to be prioriticed when being next to Kanga.

What I'm trying to say is, that Kanga poses such a threat even if it's just passive. It's so easy to capitalize just on Kangas presence, not even mentioning what happens if it becomes an active part of the game.

 

[Anty]

After playing in both ladders, i can now really see how broken it. Firstly, kanga is centralising, no questions. Im not sure how much it restricts teambuilding, but you definitely want to through in some checks. Im not sure if its just the new ladder, but kanga has been amazing, ploughing through teams like a tank and is obviously a huge threat but none-the-less checkable.
But how centralising is it? In teambuilding not so much, but in a game with her in much much more. In a game, you naturally target the bigger threat more, which tends to be MK. I am not saying you necessarily double attack it, but you are certainly not going to attack the opposing mon unless kanga is burnt. This means the opponents other poke can do more damage with less 'stress' on it, but it may not work out that way if the mon is also offensively pressured. This isnt a reason to ban, but it is a thing i have noticed and can really mess up an opponent, especcially if kanga switches out
Kanga does have checks, but you cannot assuming the checks are out straight away which is very unlikely, who sends a kanga on a landot + terrak. A lot of the time you will be having to switch into kanga, which can give it a free PupP or huge hit with double edge or maybe a predicted crunch. This, again doesnt mean it is broken but it shows how great kanga is in the meta and its power to cause switches. But when the check is in, you are basically secure unless kanga wants to sacrifice a move for crunch/ice punch or whatever. Kanga is centralising, but i do not think it is broken. Yes i have had mixed reviews but i can only really see the answer after seeing the whole picture (prolly a quote like that but better)

There are also annoying arguments with PupP i have seen
Firstly, it is easy to negate, intimidate and wisp easily do it.
Also 'kanga can negate a burn by using PupP', at the cost of a turn where the opp can easily hurt kanga or its team mate, burned PupP isnt doing much damage.

I really dont like any arguments with PupP, it is a nice move, but the damage is only chip. Untill it does damage to something not named weavile (or maybe even ttar) then the argument is ok. I see it as 'a turn to get back up to +0 or negate a burn' (notice the word turn).

You may not agree, but unless a huge new amazing proban argument is formed, i doubt ill change my mind ;)

 

[realiti]

After playing in both ladders, i can now really see how broken it. Firstly, kanga is centralising, no questions. Im not sure how much it restricts teambuilding, but you definitely want to through in some checks. Im not sure if its just the new ladder, but kanga has been amazing, ploughing through teams like a tank and is obviously a huge threat but none-the-less checkable.
But how centralising is it? In teambuilding not so much, but in a game with her in much much more. In a game, you naturally target the bigger threat more, which tends to be MK. I am not saying you necessarily double attack it, but you are certainly not going to attack the opposing mon unless kanga is burnt. This means the opponents other poke can do more damage with less 'stress' on it, but it may not work out that way if the mon is also offensively pressured. This isnt a reason to ban, but it is a thing i have noticed and can really mess up an opponent, especcially if kanga switches out
Kanga does have checks, but you cannot assuming the checks are out straight away which is very unlikely, who sends a kanga on a landot + terrak. A lot of the time you will be having to switch into kanga, which can give it a free PupP or huge hit with double edge or maybe a predicted crunch. This, again doesnt mean it is broken but it shows how great kanga is in the meta and its power to cause switches. But when the check is in, you are basically secure unless kanga wants to sacrifice a move for crunch/ice punch or whatever. Kanga is centralising, but i do not think it is broken. Yes i have had mixed reviews but i can only really see the answer after seeing the whole picture (prolly a quote like that but better)

There are also annoying arguments with PupP i have seen
Firstly, it is easy to negate, intimidate and wisp easily do it.
Also 'kanga can negate a burn by using PupP', at the cost of a turn where the opp can easily hurt kanga or its team mate, burned PupP isnt doing much damage.

I really dont like any arguments with PupP, it is a nice move, but the damage is only chip. Untill it does damage to something not named weavile (or maybe even ttar) then the argument is ok. I see it as 'a turn to get back up to +0 or negate a burn' (notice the word turn).

You may not agree, but unless a huge new amazing proban argument is formed, i doubt ill change my mind ;)

I'm nt sure if it's just me, but I don't have any problems switching in on Kanga. Most of my teams will have a check or counter without trying to have one, and some smart plays can let the check/counter for free. Now the Kanga user has to switch out, or else Kanga would be crippled. That's why I like Mega Gengar to trap Kanga and burn it. Again, I think it's easy for checks and counters to switch in

 

[Darkmalice]

AuraRayquaza, the opportunity cost to using PuP is quite huge. This is a piss-weak move, even coming from Kangaskhan. Unless Kangaskhan has Protect and is supported by Follow Me users or Dual Screen & Heal Pulse users, Kangaskhan will often find itself unable to capitalize on the attack boosts (since it stomached some irreversible damage in the process).

Granted there are ways to nab some free PuP boosts without much support (ie knocking out a weakened mon with PuP), but let's not make it sound like Kangaskhan can nab these attack boosts risk-free without significant support, especially against a good player. I say Intimidate is still an effective way of nerfing Kangaskhan, forcing it to switch out, use up a turn to PuP, or simply accept that it is going to dish hits 50% softer.

PuP works best when the opponent plays passively against Kang. By passively, I mean by Protecting or switching out instead of attacking. Common scenarios include switching out one Pokemon for an Intimidate user or a Ghost-type whilst Protecting with the other Pokemon. This particularly happens on the first turn Mega Kang is out due to the threat of Fake Out. PuP just gets you a free +2 in these scenarios (+1 if Intimidated) and has less opportunity cost in such scenarios compared to straight out attacking. In fact, there's no opportunity if you PuP your own partner against a double Protect or Protect + switch in Ghost-type, but you need to predict this well. This is one of the reasons that makes Mega Kang's Fake Out more threatening than other Pokemon's; passive play that normally works to get around Fake Out is more risky against Kang than other Fake Out users. +2 Kang is very scary to face as we all know.

Unless you're finishing off a weak Pokemon or using PuP against something like Tyranitar, using PuP during non-passive turns are usually a bad time to use PuP. Because if your opponent attacks and chips a lot of Kang's HP away, as Pocket said, it's not going to be able to do much with them. Especially if it's forced to switch out to stay alive; it can't Protect stall. And Sucker Punch in moments of death are fairly predictable.

 

[scene]

As much as I dislike playing against Kanga, I'm not convinced it's broken. Sure, it's got a powerful Fake Out, but at the same time it's generally quite predictable. It's simple enough to Quick Guard or even just double protect after picking the appropriate mons to lead against the painfully obvious Kanga lead, and it's often possible to nullify it right off the bat with some Intimidate mons. Of course this doesn't work if there's a Bisharp, but generally it's a good way to neuter Kanga from the get-go. Another good way to deal with Kanga is simply to outpace it and smack it around - it's decently fast, but not exceptionally, and its plain Normal typing gives it vulnerability to strong attacks of almost every type, especially spread moves. Of course it's only got one weakness and its good natural bulk, but it can't stand up to simple hard hitting attacks. Another issue is its lack of defence against priority like Mach Punch, Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch from strong mons like Breloom, Conkeldurr, and co. A lack of versatility is an issue too - although it does get Ice Punch and Crunch, I haven't seen a single opponent use anything apart from the four staple moves, and that's because they're really required to let Kanga perform best. Sacrifice PuP and bulkier teams have a much easier time, while losing Fake Out or Sucker Punch means a huge amount of utility is lost.

As for restricting teambuilding, I'm calling false on that one. It's dealt with by decently powerful attacks and clever play - if you don't have that, you're going to be losing to a lot more than just the fat kangaroo.

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay, figured I may aswell post in here since I finished muh reqs ;o.

I am really on the fence about Mega-Kangaskhan as it is clearly one of the best Pokemon in the meta, and the anti-ban arguments have been kind of repetitive (well so have the pro-ban ones, but \o/). One aspect of mega-mom I think is being really undersold is the support aspect it provides for a team, and I mean far more than fake out support. I have seen a couple posts saying that one of the best ways to deal with mega-mom is to keep up offensive pressure, some posts have even gone so far as to say that double targeting is a relatively easy solution to deal with mega-mom, but this ignores the fact that it too has teammates which are capable of dealing with the opposing pokemon, in fact double targeting has a huge risk associated with it because you are giving one pokemon a free turn. This is the main thing I think Kangaskhan provides for a team, it has HUGE offensive presence often forcing the opponent to either double target it before it does too much damage, or play too passively (ie all this talk of switching in intimidators). One of the main reasons Tsunami's specs Sylveon team is so successful on the ladder (and even in tournaments, I sometimes use that during BO3's when I'm lazy, usually does well), is that Kangaskhan puts so much pressure on the opponents team to deal with it, they forget about dealing with Sylveon, this is why you always lead mega-mom and Sylveon, not with Hitmontop, it is more than just the fake out support. Of course Kanga won't be 6-0ing a well built (and played) doubles team, but I don't think that being able to do that is a requirement to be broken (that certainly isn't necessary in singles).

Of course, the doubles meta game does have quite a few good responses to mega-mom, as between Landorus-T, Mega-Gengar, Terrakion, Aegislash and Gourgheist it isn't hard to fit something onto your team that can effectively deal with Mega khan. And there are things like Hitmontop, Keldeo, and Talonflame that make Kanga's life really hard but can struggle to switch into it and its partner's attacks. Kangaskhan can get around these Pokemon, with some unusual move choices (or the right support), but it can lose some utility if it decides to drop one of its standard moves. Facade is one of the moves that I think is really underrated on mega-mom, as it "deals" with the Wisps being thrown around (in XY it ignores the attack drop, so it is actually really cool), someone used it in SPL iirc, and there kanga did end up getting burned, and still was a pain for the opponent to deal with.

Don't open if you are easily butthurt

[22:11] <&socuteboss> the real reason to not ban kanga
[22:11] <&socuteboss> is fear
[22:11] <&socuteboss> of nugget bridge bullying

 

[Haruno]

First off, I'd like to say that the ladder doesn't mean shit. In the 120+ games I've played on both ladders, assuming I'm not playing one of the better players (mizu, totem, kylecole, finally, to name a few) then I should expect to be overwhelmed by random shit. A few trends I've been seeing on ladder include but not limited to; contrary shuckle, shroomish, physical zard Y, shedinja, among other shit mons. So I'd like to say that ladder is not a accurate representation of what a kanga/less metagame looks like. Though randoms tend to be lucky as fuck using sets that would make even level 51 wet with envy.

Anyways that's besides the point. Time to talk about big mom herself. Let me start by saying this, I wholeheartedly believe that PuP/fake out or protect/return or double edge/sucker punch is by far the most consistent moveset against the vast majority of mons. Simply because tossing aside any of those moves opens up kanga to a multitude of problems so I'm going to be ignoring things such as ice punch to bypass landoge/chomp, flamethrower to bypass ferro, among other options since although running one of those random moves will let it beat a potential check, it makes kanga less powerful overall. However with just its standard set it allows it to muscle past the majority of the tier with ease. The only mons that safely outspeed it and threaten it (and resist sucker punch) that are relevant are keldeo and terrakion, both of which are fairly solid mons in their own right. As far as defensively goes, any bulky ghost type with WoW tends to fare well since kanga has no actual means of touching them unless it opts to ditch a coverage move for crunch which makes it far easier to deal with overall.

Another thing to note that despite what people say, kanga has very solid bulk at 105/100/100 which allows it to be able to reliably take a hit or two. No we're not saying it has subpar bulk when you're comparing it to the likes of cresselia and kyube (what the fuck, you're literally comparing it to a 700bst behemoth and a mon with better defenses than fucking lugia and giratina). So no kangas bulk is nothing to be underestimated. Kangas typing is also an incredibly mixed bag, although it might have no weaknesses it has no resistances and only one somewhat rare immunity that is hard to abuse. So although kanga won't be switching in and out, it'll definitely be able to apply pressure on the opponent due to how difficult it is to deal with.

To add on to this, kanga has its fair share of checks admittedly, whether it be intimidators, fighting types, and the likes. It is almost always partnered with a mon that will allow it to function better. Kangasharp and Kangakiss are just two incredibly common and yet potent combinations that let kanga bypass its usual checks.

Overall I feel kanga is a very solid mon by being able to force 50-50s between actually attacking and trying to set up with PuP, I feel that although it is somewhat predictable, it is a very solid mon overall but it is by no means broken to the extent where it's impossible to deal with. It however is a mon that's harder to deal with and stop than most and thus warrants its S rank status. However atm i'm not seeing any arguments on the pro-ban side on why kanga should be banned, nor do I see any arguments from the neg-ban side on why it shouldn't be banned. Overall I feel our point of view on kanga is really up to player preference and that this suspect discussion is mostly full of shit since the pro-ban peeps will still be pro-ban peeps during voting and the neg-ban peeps will still be neg-ban. Also the ladder doesn't mean shit at all due to how fucking terrible it is.

I'm fine with w/e happens to kanga as long as "competent" people vote unlike the people that made reqs by cheating and/or playing ladder when no one was on and have shown extensive knowledge of the doubles metagame by questioning what wide guard does.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Gonna dissect how I've been using my team to beat Mega Kangaskhan when I've seen it on the ladder.

the team I used

Wounded Innocence (Gengar) @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Rapture (Tyranitar) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Pierce the Heavens (Excadrill) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Protect

Gambit (Shaymin-Sky) @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Protect

Thresher (Salamence) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Protect

Sadism (Conkeldurr) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

The obvious deadstop to Mega Kangaskhan is my Mega Gengar. Against an incompetent opponent, it's a simple matter of Mega Evolving, firing off a Will-o-Wisp and simply letting a neutered gengar sitting around on the field doing a whole load of nothing for the most part. From there on I can do things like bringing Salamence in to further reduce it's effectiveness.

When facing a more competent opponent, it's likely that I'll have to work a lot harder to get the trap off. Typically, I like to Mega Evolve Gengar as early as possible so that it will be able to either revenge trap or bait Kanagskhan to switch in which I can predict using my #dankskills. This strategy can become troublesome to pull off under several conditions. The first is the presence of Scarf Landorus-T. I hate Lando-T with a passion, to the extent where I'm running Shuca Berry / Ice Beam TTar to bait and eliminate it. Such a set is necessary when Lando-T is so popular and your win condition is a Sand Rush Excadrill. Once Lando-T is out of the way it becomes far easier for Gengar to successfully trap certain threats. The second Pokemon that can make things tricky is Bisharp. I made it clear in an earlier post that KhanSharp is sugoi as fuck in doubles. If I'm facing this then I'm often forced into a tricky position since Sucker Punch plays mind games with gar, even when burned and it becomes much harder to successfully trap and neuter the pair of them.

Whilst it seems pretty useless against Khan, TTar is actually pretty important. I can often use it as PuP and use Ghost-type's immunity to the attack to my advantage. In the absence of Mega Gengar, I can always use protect and wrack up some chip damage with whatever else I have on the field.

Obviously there are times when my Mega Gengar will fall before it has the opportunity to burn Mega Kangaskhan. This is pretty bad for me and at this point I will be forced to rely on good ol' chip damage. My general strategy is to switch out whatever is at most threat from Kangskhan for Salamence and then to hit it for as much damage as I can, depending on what I have out, I can typically kill it in 2 to 3 hits and limit its damage output but with a pretty big cost to my team.

Conkeldurr is often a good answer to Mega Kangaskhan but I have to switch it in after one of my other Pokemon has been KOd otherwise it will be cleanly 2HKOd by Mega Kangaskhan. Another issue is that my opponent will likely have something to switch into the preidctable Drain Punch and more often than not I end up targetting Mega Kangaskhan with an Ice Punch rather than a Drain Punch and I bonk their Lando-T or Togekiss or Amoonguss.

Final thoughts on some other stuff.
Fuck Sylveon, why can't I build you and why are all of my teams scared of you. (Faced shakes team twice and rekt it though qB^D)
Sand Rush Excadrill is really good, someone else should try some old gen 5 gems too.
Feel free to have a play with my team if you want, I might RMT since I enjoyed playing with it.
y'all showed watch Himegoto

 

[Pocket]

Lot of quality points so far, guys. The suspect test ends in a week, so dive into discussion if you already haven't!

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Join tomorrow (Sunday) @ 7 PM EDT (GMT -4) for a live tour! Our mission is to evaluate Kangaskhan in a more competitive setting outside the ladder. The winner of this tour will be exempted from ladder reqs :9 If you already have ladder reqs, you still dont want to miss this chance to assimilate high quality experiences playing/facing Kangaskhan to better discuss about the suspect.

Join #doubles irc channel and Doubles room in PS! to play!