Resource RU Viability Ranking

[Swamp-Rocket]

I don't really think Liepard is very good to be honest for quite a few reasons

• Although Meowstic-M gives some competition, it is notable that Whimsicott generally completely eclipses Liepard as a Prankster user. It has many of the same moves (Knock Off, Foul Play, U-turn, Stun Spore which is pretty similar to Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Encore are the more important ones), a MUCH better defensive typing in Grass/Fairy, OK bulk that is much better than Liepard's, and some form of recovery in Leech Seed and possibly Giga Drain.
• Very poor defensive typing coupled with a similarly poor bulk. Not sure what the ideal Liepard spread is, but everything in S or A OHKOs 252/0 Liepard aside from Froslass (supporter), Alomomola (its a freaking Alomomola), Cresselia (2HKOs with Moonblast), Banette, and some Zoroark (if they have LO Low Kick or Focus Blast, it loses). This wouldn't be a problem if it was an offensive Pokemon but support Pokemon shouldn't have this much of a problem switching into the battle. The less said about 0/0's bulk, the better.
• Liepard unfortunately is barely slower than Virizion, Cobalion, and Durant in the scenario you would want to go use max speed (which is almost all the time probably). Cobalion and Virizion even have Justified to make sure that Liepard's Knock Off or Foul Play gives them a boost to their attack.
• Its not the most fun thing to switch into, but if its using Foul Play (you probably shouldn't be using Foul Play over Knock Off, its attack isn't bad) special attackers have a pretty easy time manhandling it. Knock Off is annoying but... everything with Knock Off is pretty annoying. In regards to just using Knock Off Liepard is statistically inferior to Zoroark in almost every regard but Zoroark has a much better offensive movepool. It's probably worth mentioning Zoroark is bulkier than Liepard. That's just sad. On that note there are a lot worse Pokemon to switch into, and with Liepard's movepool being limited to Dark moves and U-turn, there are much worse things out there.

For these reasons I don't think Liepard is worth using very often and would rather use Whimsicott most of the time, or just not need Liepard's services at all (its a fairly niche Pokemon). I see it as C- or maybe even D rank.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Skuntank should move up from C+ to B-.

C rank is simply not fit for Skuntank. First of all, it's not in possession of "crippling flaws that prevent [it] from consistently executing [its] strategy." On the contrary, Skuntank has a very useful defensive typing with a notable lack of weaknesses save for Ground-type attacks, decent defensive stats that let it take a hit when switching in, and the ability to actually force switches of its own with a surprisingly hard-hitting Sucker Punch and Poison Jab that OHKOs or 2HKOs many common offensive Pokemon. These qualities mean that it's not unusual at all for Skuntank to find time during a battle to Defog and remove opposing hazards, which is the central reason to use it.

That brings me to my second point. Skuntank faces a large degree of competition from both Hitmontop and Gligar as bulky, reliable hazard removers that retain a degree of offensive presence, but this does not detract from it enough to the point where it is "completely eclipsed." Unlike Hitmontop, Skuntank has a better defensive typing that is harder to deal with for most teams, and due to both Skuntank's typing and Taunt, Skuntank does not have the same problems that Hitmontop has with getting worn down with status. The reliability of Defog over Rapid Spin, hand-in-hand with the much higher prevalence of Ghost-types in general as compared to Braviary, make Skuntank a prime choice for teams with Pokemon such as Moltres, in which waiting for the safest moment to spin is sometimes unfeasible, and certainty and reliability is a bigger factor. While Hitmontop is certainly still useful with its wide coverage options, better bulk, and Intimidate, these factors do not make Skuntank inferior to Hitmontop, as both Pokemon carry useful traits.

Ounce-for-ounce, Gligar is the more reliable Defogger when it comes to comparing Skuntank and Gligar. Defensively, Gligar is bulkier thanks to its ability to hold Eviolite, has a similarly impressive defensive typing, and commonly carries Stealth Rock as an easy way to clear and reset hazards in its favor. However, Gligar does not offer the same offensive potential that Skuntank preserves thanks to its access to Sucker Punch and its investment in Attack, and Gligar is often an awkward placement on more offensive teams that do not wish to lose as much offensive presence with a more defensive hazard remover. Therefore, I do not believe Gligar fits the definition of a Pokemon that "completely eclipses" Skuntank, although it is generally better.

All in all, I think Skuntank should be B-.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I'm nominating Sharpedo for S rank.
Sharpedo with Life Orb, Speed Boost, and Destiny Bond is scary. Only Mega Bannette beats it as far as a Destiny Bond user.
But aside from that, Sharpedo is so versatile! It can run Physical, Special, and even Mixed sets! It's stats and movepool are very good, but it arguably only needs Waterfall and Crunch to wreck.
Matchup wise, it beats 2 of the 3 S-ranks. Delphox and Frosslass are decimated by Sharpedo. It also beats all the A+ ranks one on one, bar Hitmonlee (but it can still beat SOME variants of Hitmonlee).
Also, Sharpedo doesn't suffer much from switching out since it can easily get its Speed Boosts back after a Protect.

 

[termi]

I don't really think Liepard is very good to be honest for quite a few reasons

• Although Meowstic-M gives some competition, it is notable that Whimsicott generally completely eclipses Liepard as a Prankster user. It has many of the same moves (Knock Off, Foul Play, U-turn, Stun Spore which is pretty similar to Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Encore are the more important ones), a MUCH better defensive typing in Grass/Fairy, OK bulk that is much better than Liepard's, and some form of recovery in Leech Seed and possibly Giga Drain.
• Very poor defensive typing coupled with a similarly poor bulk. Not sure what the ideal Liepard spread is, but everything in S or A OHKOs 252/0 Liepard aside from Froslass (supporter), Alomomola (its a freaking Alomomola), Cresselia (2HKOs with Moonblast), Banette, and some Zoroark (if they have LO Low Kick or Focus Blast, it loses). This wouldn't be a problem if it was an offensive Pokemon but support Pokemon shouldn't have this much of a problem switching into the battle. The less said about 0/0's bulk, the better.
• Liepard unfortunately is barely slower than Virizion, Cobalion, and Durant in the scenario you would want to go use max speed (which is almost all the time probably). Cobalion and Virizion even have Justified to make sure that Liepard's Knock Off or Foul Play gives them a boost to their attack.
• Its not the most fun thing to switch into, but if its using Foul Play (you probably shouldn't be using Foul Play over Knock Off, its attack isn't bad) special attackers have a pretty easy time manhandling it. Knock Off is annoying but... everything with Knock Off is pretty annoying. In regards to just using Knock Off Liepard is statistically inferior to Zoroark in almost every regard but Zoroark has a much better offensive movepool. It's probably worth mentioning Zoroark is bulkier than Liepard. That's just sad. On that note there are a lot worse Pokemon to switch into, and with Liepard's movepool being limited to Dark moves and U-turn, there are much worse things out there.

For these reasons I don't think Liepard is worth using very often and would rather use Whimsicott most of the time, or just not need Liepard's services at all (its a fairly niche Pokemon). I see it as C- or maybe even D rank.

Wrong.

While admittedly I haven't used Liepard enough in RU to say what rank it should be getting, I do know that Liepard possesses ways to easily distinguish itself from Whimsicunt and Zoroark. Basically, the set you should be using goes as follows:

Liepard (M) @ BlackGlasses
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit/Knock Off
- Encore
- U-turn

This is what I used in last gen's NU, and it can still hold its own in this gen's RU. While in many ways, this seems like it's just a weaker Zoroark, it has Prankster Encore, which actually allows it to stop setup sweepers cold by locking them into their setup move (you will need a safe switch, so either predict them to go for the setup or VoltTurn around a bit - Liepard does great on VoltTurn teams), and unlike Whimsicott, which also boasts the Prankster Encore, Liepard has good offensive presence, allowing it to Pursuit trap mons that are trying to switch out because they're locked into a setup move or are just scared of Dark types (Delphox, anyone? CM Reuniclus? Meloetta?). This set shouldn't be seen as some sort of sweeper or wallbreaker like Zoroark, nor as a pure support mon like Whimsicott, but more like a middle road for who wants a pivot that acts like a failsafe while also having enough offensive utility to not be deadweight in certain matches.

There's more Liepard sets to experiment with, and I might do just that in the coming days, but please, don't underestimate kitty cat :[

 

[phantom]

Roselia fits pretty nicely in B- imo. Like Amoonguss, it's one of the few answers stall has to SD Virizion, which is a huge pain in the ass for these teams. However, unlike Amoonguss, Roselia is pretty darn good team player, providing Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and even Aromatherapy support if need be. I find that Roselia is a primarily a utility mon as opposed to a general wall, much like Forretress is in UU. The reason being is that it doesn't necessarily check / counter too much. It counters a couple things like special Sceptile, Heliolisk, as well as having the ability to check shit like Clawitzer and Cofagrigus, but there's honestly not that much outside of that. While Rose can't switch into a lot on any given team (typically having one or two switch-in opportunities versus your regular offensive team for instance), at the very least, it has Sleep Powder in order to deal with an incoming counter on the switch. Whenever I played it, it was supporting its team by absorbing Toxic Spikes, relieving status, or laying down entry hazards of its own, and it does that pretty darn well. On top of which, it has some pretty good recovery options and is damn resilient to status thanks to Natural Cure. What makes Roselia a particularity good utility mon is that it can switch in very easily to do its job against premier defensive threats in this tier, such as Alomomola, Aromatisse, and Registeel and thus pull its weight pretty consistently. Of course, Knock Off spam sucks a lot and as does the lack of Leftovers, slight 4MSS, and fact that it really only fits on stall-based teams, but I find that its general utility on these teams to be pretty good when using it and annoying when playing against. While there is a chubby degree of opportunity cost towards using Roselia, it has a lot of utility to offer and it doesn't require too much support to mitigate its shortcomings, hence B-.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

As a Liepard fanboy this gen around (It's and Moltres are the only mons that's been on my main team since the start of Round 0), I can clearly support Eonx's post. The thing about Liepard is that it serves as an allround check to so many playstyles simply by being on your team; be it smashpass, stall, trick room, hyper offense and somewhat to bulky offense. It doesn't counter anything, and it's frail as fuck, but with a specially defensive spread you'll actually take more hits than you'd assume (IE Raikou couldn't 2hko this version without specs or cm boost, which isn't easy to get simply because of Liepard). And the thing I really love about it is that, it's very existence discourages setup. I find it to be the ultimate partner to slow and bulky u-turners like Gligar, Eelektross, Lanturn and whatnot that mons would try and set up on, only to get Encored and is then forced out to something that loses it's item and, if dangerous enough, gets twaved. This is the way I use mine, and it works really well. You could argue that Whimsicott would do this job better, but I prefer Liepard's ability to take on Psychic CM users like Cress, Reuni, Meloetta, Uxie and whatnot. Also, the specially defensive variant is an absolute hardcheck to Cress, even with Moonblast, as Cress can't always 3hko it even. And although it is hard for Liepard to get hp back, using the free turns Encore and Taunt creates are one way to recover it slowly (I've had a match where I got a 2% Liepard back to 50% simply by doing this)

Another thing about Liepard is it's incredible versatility. It fits onto many playstyles due to the sheer nature of it's moveset. It is one of the better Weather inducers in the tier, it can support bulky offense with twaves (or sticky web hyper offense with twaves on birds), it can be a solid mon for stall teams (which is the way I use it) by working as both a check to setuppers and working as a stallbreaker with Encore-taunt, and stuff like this. Saying that Liepard contests with Whimsicott or that it's outclassed by it is simply wrong, as they have one moveset they compete over (Encore-taunt-status-U-turn or knock off), but Liepard has other things to do as well... and Whimsicott does what else? SubSeed? And Whimsi and Liepard checks different things on that one moveset (Whimsi takes on things like Virizion much better clearly, whereas Liepard takes on Psychics slightly better). So honestly speaking, this isn't a Sylv/Florg situation where both mons runs the same things and checks the same things.

And finally there's the offensive variants, which works a bit like the Encoring Chatterbird. Yknow, Encore things into bad moves, hit something slightly hard with Knock Off or steal momentum with U-turn. Mainly what Robert talked about.

Of course, I'm not saying this mon is without flaws... Everyone knows of the frailty of Liepard and the severe case of 4MSS, so I'm not gonna talk about that. EonX brought up what was necessary in that case anyways.


If replays weren't down, I'd show some replays of Liepard doing serious work ;_;
http://puu.sh/8xjWq.swf

 

[aVocado]

I have a number of nominations for raises/drops that have been on my mind for a while now, so bear with me:

Moltres (A) -> (A+): Fire burd is good, fire burd is holy. Seriously though, Life Orb Moltres is a huge threat and nuke that will muscle through any prepared or unprepared team with it's combination of Fire Blast, Hurricane, HP Grass, and Roost. It's got decent enough bulk to live some hits, with strong enough power to OHKO/2HKO a lot of the tier. Same as Delphox, its only real true counter is AV Slowking. Other than the LO set, which 2HKOs most walls and breaks many cores with Fire Blast/Hurricane, it's got a number of other sets and can be unpredictable at times. Offensive SubRoost, Defensive SubRoost, and even Agility, to let it outspeed the entire boosted or non-boosted meta and sweep. Burd doesn't come without flaws though. It's got a noticeable and hindering x4 weakness to Stealth Rock, and in a tier dominated by hazards, this isn't a good thing to have. It also sometimes has to rely on shaky accuracy, in return for sheer force and immense power. Because of those reasons, I think Moltres should sit comfortably at A+.

Gorebyss (A-) -> (A): I was honestly surprised when I saw Gorebyss sitting at A-. It's an incredible offensive and supportive threat, having access to an incredible boosting move in Shell Smash, having respectable Special Attack and movepool, and being a little bulky makes Gorebyss very good, but what makes it worthy of raising to A is the combination of Shell Smash + Baton Pass, which can let any sweeper easily finish off the opponent's team. Even outside of SmashPassing, and as stated earlier, Gorebyss has good SpA and is capable of sweeping the opposing team itself with the combination of Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Gorebyss to A rank.

Shiftry (C) -> (B-/C+): Shiftry is a massively underrated 'mon right now. It's pretty good and is probably the best offensive defogger in the tier, which is a really good niche to have. It's got bad defensive stats, but a good typing saves him. With Grass/Dark, it's able to serve as a good offensive check to threatening Pokemon like Clawitzer, Slowking, Reuniclus, and Heliolisk. It's offensive presence is also pretty strong, with access to decent mixed offenses, STAB Knock Off, Leaf Storm, and strong STAB priority in Sucker Punch. It's able to pull off its weight very decently early in the game, shuffling the opponent's team around with a combination of the aforementioned moves, while being able to comfortably Defog in the face of slower Pokemon. As with all the other mons though, Shiftry has its fair share of flaws. First of all, Grass/Dark doesn't offer very good coverage, and makes it complete set-up fodder for Pokemon like Cobalion, which can get a possible boost from a resisted Knock Off, resists Leaf Storm, and can set-up SD. Therefore, I think Shiftry should go up to B- or C+ at worst.

Slowking (A-) -> (A/A+): Slowking has a pretty damn good typing with a pretty damn good ability and damn good stat spreads, and goddamn awesome movepool. It's AV set is the only thing keeping threats like Delphox, Cobalion, and Moltres at bay, walling them all day. It's got an incredible movepool, with Scald, Psyshock, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, and Dragon Tail. It's pivoting abilities are very good with Regenerator, and Scald has good utility. It also has offensive presence if invested, which all AV Slowking should do. There's not much else to say really, a combination of amazing pivoting capabilities, movepool, stat spread, typing, and ability to wall certain threats should warrant it a promotion tbh, to either A or A+.

Bronzong (B+) -> (B-/C+): I don't know why Bronzong i ranked that high atm.. the metagame shifted into a direction that really doesn't help it, with Knock Off being everywhere and fire spam domination. It was a good 'mon for walling threats like Kyurem and Shaymin, but not anymore since they're both in UU atm. It has access to Stealth Rock, but other Pokemon do it better. It's Gyro Ball hits for decent amounts of damage but that's not good enough reason to use it, but I guess walling Rhyperior and Toxicing it isn't bad. Bronzong to B-/C+.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Slowking (A-) -> A+: Seconding everything Arikado has stated about Slowking. It's easily one of the best AV users in the tier (the other being Rhyperior), it can fulfill a multitude of roles effectively (TR offense, simple NP, Specially defensive...) and fits on teams really easily. That huge movepool enables Slowking to stand up to many dangerous threats and would-be checks/counters if it weren't for those moves. It lasts long thanks to Regenerator and Assault Vest; when not running AV, it has the option of running Slack Off for reliable recovery. These points definitely make Slowking an outstanding Pokémon in current RU. Slowking for A+.

 

[skies]

Roselia fits pretty nicely in B- imo. Like Amoonguss, it's one of the few answers stall has to SD Virizion, which is a huge pain in the ass for these teams. However, unlike Amoonguss, Roselia is pretty darn good team player, providing Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and even Aromatherapy support if need be. I find that Roselia is a primarily a utility mon as opposed to a general wall, much like Forretress is in UU. The reason being is that it doesn't necessarily check / counter too much. It counters a couple things like special Sceptile, Heliolisk, as well as having the ability to check shit like Clawitzer and Cofagrigus, but there's honestly not that much outside of that. While Rose can't switch into a lot on any given team (typically having one or two switch-in opportunities versus your regular offensive team for instance), at the very least, it has Sleep Powder in order to deal with an incoming counter on the switch. Whenever I played it, it was supporting its team by absorbing Toxic Spikes, relieving status, or laying down entry hazards of its own, and it does that pretty darn well. On top of which, it has some pretty good recovery options and is damn resilient to status thanks to Natural Cure. What makes Roselia a particularity good utility mon is that it can switch in very easily to do its job against premier defensive threats in this tier, such as Alomomola, Aromatisse, and Registeel and thus pull its weight pretty consistently. Of course, Knock Off spam sucks a lot and as does the lack of Leftovers, slight 4MSS, and fact that it really only fits on stall-based teams, but I find that its general utility on these teams to be pretty good when using it and annoying when playing against. While there is a chubby degree of opportunity cost towards using Roselia, it has a lot of utility to offer and it doesn't require too much support to mitigate its shortcomings, hence B-.

+2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-186 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I agree Roselia is good, but it does not counter Virizion, as Stone Edge 2HKOes after SR, while Close Combat 2HKOes after SR + 1 layer of spikes. Sludge Bomb isn't even a guaranteed 2HK0 w/ SR and even if it gets poisoned, there is at least Toxic Spikes. It can do great at softening up and taking on its hits, but I would not go as far as to say it's an answer to SD Virizion, but a good check.

 

[phantom]

I agree Roselia is good, but it does not counter Virizion, as Stone Edge 2HKOes after SR, while Close Combat 2HKOes after SR + 1 layer of spikes. Sludge Bomb isn't even a guaranteed 2HK0 w/ SR and even if it gets poisoned, there is at least Toxic Spikes. It can do great at softening up and taking on its hits, but I would not go as far as to say it's an answer to SD Virizion, but a good check.

Where exactly did I say that it was a counter? First off, you're acting as if virizion will hit Stone Edge twice AND get max damage rolls both times, which is highly unlikely. A good answer doesn't imply a counter. As for your damage calcs, you went ahead and calced Roselia taking SR damage and virizion nothing? I mean come on. If you're gonna argue, try and not make it so obvious that you have a bias here and you're doing so not to bring up a good point, but to make an assumption about ambiguous wording for who knows what reason. Posting obscure set combos (Leftovers Virizion, which is much more inferior to its lum berry counterpart) that are downgraded variants of the standard set with clear bias in your damage calcs doesn't make your argument any better, and all it does is make it easier to point out the holes in it.

 

[skies]

Where exactly did I say that it was a counter? First off, you're acting as if virizion will hit Stone Edge twice AND get max damage rolls both times, which is highly unlikely. A good answer doesn't imply a counter. As for your damage calcs, you went ahead and calced Roselia taking SR damage and virizion nothing? I mean come on. If you're gonna argue, try and not make it so obvious that you have a bias here and you're doing so not to bring up a good point, but to make an assumption about ambiguous wording for who knows what reason. Posting obscure set combos (Leftovers Virizion, which is much more inferior to its lum berry counterpart) that are downgraded variants of the standard set with clear bias in your damage calcs doesn't make your argument any better, and all it does is make it easier to point out the holes in it.

I did say it doesn't have a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, here's the calc:
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-186 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It's higher than without but I did mention it. And yeah, I forgot to get rid of Leftovers because its the first thing in the calcs, but I realize now that it's a 2HKO with Sludge Bomb after SR, while an 89.5% chance without. And you completely skipped over the part about Close Combat, and just for reference:
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Virizion always 2HKOes with Close Combat after SR + 1 layer of Spikes. What even is the Roselia set honestly, does it have froom for Sludge Bomb? Between Spikes, Giga Drain, Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes, Sludge Bomb, Rest, and Hidden Power [Fire], does it always fit on Sludge Bomb? I like having Sludge Bomb on it, for Virizion as stated, and I didn't say that Roselia doesn't beat Virizion, but it is a check, not a solid answer to it, a check. I agree both are great and they can beat each other under different circumstances, but I'm just saying Virizion can 2HKO it.

 

[phantom]

-snip-

Your issue that you seem to be ignoring is that you're interpreting ambiguous wording. Like I said, I never called it a counter. That fact that you made that assumption is on YOU. You're basically arguing for the sake of it as this point when I made it damn clear what I meant by "answer" and yet you continue to drag this on, as if what you're doing now isn't completely embarrassing on your part. Second, I've already explained to you once before why Spikes isn't a given battle condition. So quit throwing around that damage calc as if it means something because it doesn't. I'm aware of the fact that it can 2HKO; otherwise, I would have actually used the word counter, wouldn't I?

 

[Durant]

Your issue that you seem to be ignoring is that you're interpreting ambiguous wording. Like I said, I never called it counter. That fact that you made that assumption is on YOU. You're basically arguing for the sake of it as this point when I made it damn clear what I meant by "answer" and yet you continue to drag this on, as if what you're doing now isn't completely embarrassing on your part. Second, I've already explained to you once before why Spikes isn't a given battle condition. So quit throwing around that damage calc as if it means something because it doesn't. I'm aware of the fact that it can 2HKO; otherwise, I would have actually used the word counter, wouldn't I?

Well to be fair with Froslass being such a good and common Pokemon Spikes are not that difficult to get up in RU.

 

[EonX]

Ok, time to cover stuff as usual:

Gorebyss: Dear god, why is this thing not higher? A rank is probably best for it, but it's fucking SmashPass. You have next-to-guaranteed Screens from Meowstic-M, an endless amount of different sweepers ready to wreck face with a SmashPass, and you can also use the boost yourself if you really wanted to. Case and point, Gorebyss is the best SmashPass user and SmashPass is ridiculously good right now. Put Gorebyss in A rank.

Slowking: I can agree with this. Let's not forget that on top of AV, defensive, and NP sets, Slowking can also run a physically defensive CM set and a defensive TR set. Oh, and did I mention there's tons of Trick Room absuers abound in this tier? Yeah, Slowking may have gotten a little worse since BW due to the Knock Off buff allowing most Fighting-types to do something with it, but King is still one of the better glue mons out there. I think A+ is really good since it is the best counter to Delphox in the entire tier (S rank) and is the reason many Escavaliers (another S rank mon) run Speed investment.

Bronzong: While I don't think Bronzong should be B+, there's no way I believe it should be anywhere in C. Sure, Firespam is kinda bad for Zong, but Bronzong has EQ to deter most of them from coming in freely. Moltres avoids EQ, but that isn't stopping you from hitting it with Toxic or getting Rocks up ASAP. It deters most Defog users in some way (outright walls Gligar, Togetic, and Golbat while dealing solid damage to Shiftry and Skuntank to punish them) from coming in freely, which is something not all hazard users can say (Registeel....) and most Rapid Spin users can be crippled in some way (Toxic defensive ones and attack most offensive ones) Even Bronzong's lack of recovery can be made up for through the use of Aromatisse or Alomomola, both of which have solid defensive synergy with Zong. Knock Off buff sucks, Firespam isn't fun, and there is a thing called Registeel, which shares a similar typing and role as Bronzong. However, Zong is nowhere near bad enough to be anywhere in C rank imo. I think it should be B/B-. It has some unfortunate flaws, but there are clear reasons to use it over the likes of Registeel and Rhyperior.

Liepard: I figured these comparisons to Whimsicott and Zoroark would come up eventually, but I'm always prepared! Anyway, Liepard has similar qualities with both, but it plays like neither. Whimsi has the defensive typing and bulk to actually wall a fair few threats, thus lessening the need for it to Encore and switch out. While Liepard has similar support moves, you take advantage of those moves in a different fashion. After Encoring, Liepard should be using U-turn to give your offensive Pokemon a much easier time of finding their setup opportunities, whereas Whimsicott can often stay in and chip away at switch-ins or the Pokemon it Encored with Leech Seed or a STAB move. While Liepard falls just short of the musketeers and Durant, I don't exactly see Whimsicott staying in on them either (bar Virizion) The important thing Liepard gets in front of is Delphox. While Whimsicott can only paralyze the fox, Liepard can simply click Knock Off and watch Delphox die.
As for Zoroark, it is a hard-hitting attacker. Whether it be physical, special, or mixed. Even though Liepard has the moves to hit back (much better than Whimsi actually) Pard focuses on support first and attacking second. If it can find a moment to strike with a decently strong Knock Off or Sucker Punch, cool. But that shouldn't be your priority. (geddit?) Your priority with Liepard is stopping setuppers from doing anything and supporting the team by giving your own setup sweepers an opportunity to setup reliably. Zoroark focuses on offense and nothing else.
In a nutshell, Whimsicott is purely a support Pokemon. It can't do much of anything else other than support its team. Liepard can support its team and provide a decent amount of offensive presence if the situation calls for it (such as against Delphox) and the extra Speed Whimsicott has to beat out the musketeers and Durant is largely pointless since it A.) generally wants to invest in bulk and B.) only beats Virizion anyway. (and it needs Moonblast for that) If you need something to support a team and defend against some threats, Whimsicott is better due to its typing and bulk. If you need a support Pokemon that can hit back when the situation calls for it and still create setup opportunities for your setup sweepers, use Liepard. Oh, and Liepard is an amazing rain setter. Quite possibly the best in the tier.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

After Encoring, Liepard should be using U-turn to give your offensive Pokemon a much easier time of finding their setup opportunities, whereas Whimsicott can often stay in and chip away at switch-ins or the Pokemon it Encored with Leech Seed or a STAB move.

There is nothing stopping Whimsicott from Encoring then U-turning if it feels like it. The fact that it has the option to stay in and whittle it down whereas Liepard does not doesn't really help the comparison much.

While Liepard falls just short of the musketeers and Durant, I don't exactly see Whimsicott staying in on them either (bar Virizion).

When I was talking about Liepard's speed I was trying to refer to it - Whimsicott's speed wasn't important because unlike Liepard it prefers to invest in bulk. That is just saying that while Liepard is fast, it isn't fast enough to use U-turn to try and see what would happen against Cobalion, Durant, or Virizion (or finish off a Durant), which hurts its chances a bit.

Pard focuses on support first and attacking second.

While I get this, the only "support" I see is with weather, Encore, U-turn, Taunt, and Thunder Wave. At this point I can hardly see Liepard running Thunder Wave or Taunt on its moveset without giving up something and while weather is threatening, its not something fantastic right now (rain is pretty solid, sun is not that great). Priority Encore is cool and I know everyone is emphasizing it but... that alone shouldn't warrant something as high as B-.

That brings me to another not as important point - last generation Liepard finished things off as a C- Pokemon and I don't understand what would make it better this generation than last generation. All it has really gotten is Knock Off (which, as you've said, is not its main selling point) and it is faster than Delphox which is good, and it now has to deal with Fairy-types like Aromatisse, as well as Cobalion and Virizion, and a generally superior Zoroark... it is a very similar picture to last generation where it was pretty low. The only Pokemon ranked higher than last generation got some major buffs (Hitmonlee got a Dark move, Skuntank/Golbat/Togetic got Defog, Whimsicott's a Fairy, Drapion got Knock Off and its typing is actually good now, Combusken has Baton Pass, Shuckle got Sticky Web, Chatot/Exploud got Boomburst etc.), and Liepard simply is not amongst the Pokemon that got quite this much of a buff. It's definitely not an entire letter rank better than last generation.

Also, I feel like priority Encore is being overselled slightly. Liepard needs to be careful about coming in on many of the set up sweepers out there (because, you know, they have to have set up on the turn you were sent in to be Encored) because they can kill Liepard. This is a problem also because it is unnecessary to set up to break through a Liepard. You can try to play it safe with Voltturn but when your best Volt Switch user is a B+ Pokemon, that doesn't really help the possibilities of using the strategy. Priority encore is nice but if Liepard is outclassed without that one attack, it doesn't deserve to be as high as B-. Looking at C rank...

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

This describes Liepard well, and I stick with my opinion it should be C-.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I think we should discuss sceptile moving down to B+ or lower even.

Why? You should give reasons for such a statement.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I think we should discuss sceptile moving down to B+ or lower even.

How about no? Sceptile can stay where it is

the tail tho
This is what sceptile brings to the table:
-Base 120 speed, making it one of the fastest mons in the tier.
-Good mixed attacking stats
-An outstanding movepool allowing it to run multiple sets: Offensive SubSeed, Swords Dance, Sub+3 attacks, SubSD, and All-Out-Attacker are some
-A great revenge killer with it's fantastic speed stat
-A pokemon that is very hard to switch into, as different sets beat different pokemon.
-A model that's almost as sexy as atomicllamas
-A sick ah shiny sprite
-Instant intimidation inhabiting team preview

Sceptile's cons:
-meh defenses, not able to take strong neutral hits
-lost flying gem, so no more flying gem acrobatics.
-New bulky threat to stop sweeptile (cress, aromatisse, etc.)

As you can see, sceptile's pros outweigh his cons marginally, and he is a valuable asset to many offensive teams. Being able to put a huge chunk in stall as well, able to break apart TangKing Regen cores with little to no trouble, sceptile is an awesome mon, being exceptionally hard to switch into as stated above because of the wide variety of sets it could be running.

tl;dr-Sceptile should stay where it is or possibly even move up, but idk. Discussion pls, this intrigues me

 

[EonX]

I think we should discuss sceptile moving down to B+ or lower even.

I'd like to hear the reasoning here on this one, but I guess I'll get into this one too:

So, Sceptile was one of the best mons to use in BW, so it has a good track record in RU. So, what does it have going for and against it? Here's how it looks to me:

Pros:
- Great base 120 Speed will generally force you to run a Scarf mon or priority user to revenge kill it.
- Decent 85 / 105 mixed offenses
- Has Swords Dance to boost its otherwise mediocre Attack
- Can run multiple sets decently well. SD, All-Out Attacker, SubSeed, and Sub + 3 Attacks

Cons:
- No Flying Gem makes it hard to effectively use Unburden
- Nerf to Hidden Power (along with Leaf Storm to an extent) really hurts
- Introduction of bulky threats that Sceptile struggles with, such as Bronzong, Aromatisse, and Registeel
- Introduction of Assault Vest makes it hard for special sets to flourish
- Introduction of Virizion makes it hard to justify using SDTile w/o Flying Gem
- Lackluster defenses and defensive typing

That Virizion point should kinda stick with everyone. When you have a Grass-type that picks up SD, has a secondary physical STAB to beat Steel-types easily, and can even run Calm Mind if it really wants to, it is really hard to justify the use of Sceptile unless you really need the extra Speed. Sceptile isn't a bad Pokemon per se, but the shift to XY just really kicks it in the face. While one could make an argument for Sceptile to be A-, I simply don't see how it's as good as many of the A- threats such as Durant, Gallade, and Meloetta. I feel Sceptile should drop down to B+ because of this:

B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Generally outperformed by Virizion, but Sceptile's versatility can make it fairly hard to handle.

 

[DTC]

the thing is sceptile has leaf storm over virizion, while virizion's grass stab is... giga drain. this is really important because sceptile ends up hitting pretty hard even though it has 'only' 105 base special attack. leaf storm is basically a reliable nuke button coming from 120 base speed which is something no other ru pokemon can offer, and this makes sceptile a valuable pokemon on offensive teams.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Hoo boy, once GF finally releases a Contrary Snivy, there ain't gonna be that conversation. And they will. I hope.
snivy is the best grass starter seriously it's so cute

On to Eelektross... I've been getting some decent mileage out of Expert Belt over Life Orb on the special pivot set. Is this viable in the long term? I mean, Life Orb's nice an' all, but the recoil really does hurt despite Eelektross's bulk and zero weaknesses without the opponent running a gimmick set. However, the damage is a bit better with LO. I'm conflicted. Help a girl out, chaps. =]

 

[Kevun]

Generally outperformed by Virizion, but Sceptile's versatility can make it fairly hard to handle.

The only thing that I would say Virizion outperforms Sceptile is Swords Dance. Swords Dance simply isn't viable on Sceptile due to the loss of Flying Gem and the introduction of Virizion, who has a better attack stat, higher BP physical moves, and a Fighting STAB. Otherwise, Sceptile is significantly faster and has more power, in both special attack and movepool (with Leaf Storm).

Other than that, I do support Sceptile moving down to B+, as the metagame has shifted to be much more hostile to it than last gen. With new things like AV, Delphox, Aromatisse, Cresselia, Doublade, Bronzong, and Registeel, there are significantly more things that give it trouble and can easily switch into its attacks. This is coupled with the fact that its Swords Dance set is now much less viable, and it loses a large portion of its unpredictability. The rise in usage of scarfed Braviary doesn't help its case either.

However, Sceptile is still a serious offensive threat, with that absolutely monstrous speed stat and its nuke Leaf Storm. It's still a great asset to offensive teams, but I think that too much has changed against its favor for it to remain in A-rank. B+ seems like the perfect place for it.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

The only thing that I would say Virizion outperforms Sceptile is Swords Dance. Swords Dance simply isn't viable on Sceptile due to the loss of Flying Gem and the introduction of Virizion, who has a better attack stat, higher BP physical moves, and a Fighting STAB. Otherwise, Sceptile is significantly faster and has more power, in both special attack and movepool (with Leaf Storm).

Other than that, I do support Sceptile moving down to B+, as the metagame has shifted to be much more hostile to it than last gen. With new things like AV, Delphox, Aromatisse, Cresselia, Doublade, Bronzong, and Registeel, there are significantly more things that give it trouble and can easily switch into its attacks. This is coupled with the fact that its Swords Dance set is now much less viable, and it loses a large portion of its unpredictability. The rise in usage of scarfed Braviary doesn't help its case either.

However, Sceptile is still a serious offensive threat, with that absolutely monstrous speed stat and its nuke Leaf Storm. It's still a great asset to offensive teams, but I think that too much has changed against its favor for it to remain in A-rank. B+ seems like the perfect place for it.

Let's get this straight.
Assault Vest means Jack freaking all in regards to sceptile's viability.
Of the viable AV users from my experience, only one or two mons now have the ability to bypass being 2HKO'd after a layer of spikes, which is common now because froslass spam, being druddigon and reuniclus off the top of my head (Avest Amoonguss is dumb and i don't support it but meh you can count it if you want)

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Clawitzer: 351-413 (101.4 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 192-229 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now in regards to my highlights in the paragraphs above:

You brought up a point so i don't have to...SD virizion and SD Sceptile have really similar checks/counters. Let's move one pokemon down because it plays the same role and is removed by the same things, why don't we. Once Again, the scarf braviary is bad for virzion too.
And in regards to sceptile, it can run hp rock or rock slide for delphox, moltres, etc., both of which 2HKO, and although this is s minor point, keep in mind virizion has to rely on the much less accurate stone edge to break through delphox and moltres and etc. And when you raise your pitchforks and yell about how sceptile has to rely on focus miss for it's special set to work, keep in mind virizion does as well.

And my final point,
Just Because one set on sceptile is outclassed by another pokemon doesn't mean that sceptile as a whole is outclassed. Also SD Sceptile is still usable but w/e

That's like comparing musharna to cresselia as a Calm Mind user. Cresselia has the obvious advantage of being faster, bulkier, ad outclasses musharna in that role in pretty much every way. But that doesn't mean musharna is 1. A bad Calm Mind user or 2. Completely outclassed as a pokemon. The "outclassed" pokemon normally has an alternate set that it can perform better. Sceptile is mainly special. And from what I've seen, most of these arguments are against Sceptile's set more than sceptile itself. Let's take a step back from Sceptile is outclassed as a swords dance user by virizion, and let's look at: Sceptile's main role is being a speedy special attacker who sits at a base speed of 120, making him an effective revenge killer. Alternatively, you could use a swords dance set to catch people thinking you are special sceptile off guard.

Tl;dr - sceptile should stay in A- because of the multiple roles it can perform well in this metagame.

 

[Kevun]

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is extremely unfortunate that Sceptile cannot break past Slowking, something it could easily do last gen. Furthermore, Slowking OHKOs it back with Fire Blast.

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Iits important to note that the chance of hitting Focus Miss twice consecutively is only 49%, while Tangrowth can deprive Sceptile of its Life Orb with Knock Off. True, Tangrowth cannot beat Sceptile easily, but Sceptile cannot reliably get past Tangrowth.

Let's get this straight.
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 192-229 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sceptile has pretty big 4MSS, as if it runs HP Fire, it cannot run HP Rock, meaning it misses out on important targets like Delphox and Moltres. Sure, it can run Rock Slide, but then it has to divide up its EVs, lessening its power. Again, Escav OHKOs it back with Megahorn, meaning Sceptile has to predict the switch in order to win, or catch Escav at low health.

Overall, I'd say AV has made a difference, maybe not monumental, but is still a negative against Sceptile.

You brought up a point so i don't have to...SD virizion and SD Sceptile have really similar checks/counters. Let's move one pokemon down because it plays the same role and is removed by the same things, why don't we. Once Again, the scarf braviary is bad for virzion too.
And in regards to sceptile, it can run hp rock or rock slide for delphox, moltres, etc., both of which 2HKO, and although this is s minor point, keep in mind virizion has to rely on the much less accurate stone edge to break through delphox and moltres and etc. And when you raise your pitchforks and yell about how sceptile has to rely on focus miss for it's special set to work, keep in mind virizion does as well.

Virizion arguably outclasses Sceptile as a SD sweeper. Virizion has much better bulk and typing, allowing it to set up on key threats like Rhyperior and Sharpedo, things that Sceptile simply cannot setup on (or switch into safely with Rhyperior). Furthermore, Virizion has that STAB CC, which guarantees many more KOs than Sceptile, who has to rely on a MUCH weaker Brick Break. At +2, Virizion is able to defeat significantly more pokemon than Sceptile, notably Escavalier, weakened Bronzong, Druddigon, Cobalion (assuming winning the speed tie), and Registeel. Moreover, Sceptile needs to run Life Orb to secure many KOs, while Virizion can run Lum Berry safely, allowing it much easier time setting up. Literally the only benefit to Sceptile is its speed. Stone Edge acc is true, nothing to debate there. If you are using Sceptile, you shouldn't be running SD, a fact which greatly hampers its unpredictability.

Also, SD is, imo, the only viable set on Virizion, and is not going to be running a special set.

Let's get this straight.
Just Because one set on sceptile is outclassed by another pokemon doesn't mean that sceptile as a whole is outclassed. Also SD Sceptile is still usable but w/e

Lol, when did I say that? In fact, I completely agreed with you, and argued the same thing. I literally said that SD was the only set Virizion outclasses Sceptile, and Sceptile is much better than Virizion at a specially attacking set. See this:

The only thing that I would say Virizion outperforms Sceptile is Swords Dance. Swords Dance simply isn't viable on Sceptile due to the loss of Flying Gem and the introduction of Virizion, who has a better attack stat, higher BP physical moves, and a Fighting STAB. Otherwise, Sceptile is significantly faster and has more power, in both special attack and movepool (with Leaf Storm).

EDIT:

Let's move one pokemon down because it plays the same role and is removed by the same things, why don't we.

Oh, bout this, you're not getting the point. I was describing Sceptile's special set, not its SD set. I didn't consider its SD set, since like I said, its outclassed by Virizion. In this comparison, Virizion can remove most of these at +2, while Sceptile's special set cannot. Comparing them is like comparing Sceptile's viability as a special attacker to Virizion's viability as a SD sweeper.

Really, I'd say that Virizion and Sceptile, when played to their strengths, perform completely different roles

 

[EonX]

DTC , I get that Sceptile has Leaf Storm and that can nuke some shit, but there's so much crap that resists it. Escavalier, Druddigon, Moltres, Delphox, Yanmega, and, ironically enough, Virizion herself all resist Leaf Storm and can take more than one (well, Delphox really can't) due to solid bulk (4x resist in Mega's case) Considering the fact that these are all S and A rank threats we're talking about, that kinda sucks, especially considering most of these are bulky attackers that you would like to break down. That's not even counting Cresselia, who can take a Leaf Storm just on account of her bulk in general.

GlassGlaceon , ok, you can run HP Fire. Have fun fending off that Moltres or Yanmega your opponent has that's probably going to KO something. Problem is, Sceptile has 4MSS. It really fucking wishes to have HP Rock and HP Fire. It has to choose which serious threats it just lets in almost at will. Do you want to run HP Rock and let Escavalier run all over you? Or would you rather handle Esca with HP Fire and have to deal with Moltres or Yanmega. I also like how you exclude Druddigon from your AV calcs since it's a pretty cool user of the item. HP Rock and Rock Slide 2HKO... yeah, I may not like the accuracy of Stone Edge, but it's OHKOing Tres and Fox at least. Both Virizion and Sceptile have to rely on Focus Blast for their special sets. That's true, but Virizion at least picks up STAB on it.
As for your point on special Sceptile as a whole, it can revenge kill. But in BW, it was so good because it could effectively wallbreak, revenge kill, AND clean up late-game with generally one set. (Sub+3 Attacks) However, it simply can't do that now. Sub+3 Attacks got a huge nerf with crap like Bronzong, Aromatisse, and Registeel coming to the tier on top of Assault Vest making things like Druddigon and Escavalier even bulkier on the special side. The All-Out Attacker set was always a slightly inferior set since so much crap resisted its nuke, Leaf Storm, which still holds true in XY. And we've already gone over SD's losses with no Flying Gem and Virizion around.

Sceptile just is a case of being able to do really good things, but the generation shift just shitting on it. New bulky threats it has a hard time getting past, no Flying Gem and new competition for physical sets, and a lot of things that resists its nuke button, Leaf Storm, to keep it from consistently breaking down walls and bulky attackers. Combine this with the fact that Virizion has such a good defensive typing for the current meta (can come in on Rhyperior, Zoro, and Shark relatively easily) minus the Firespam (which sucks for Sceptile too) and it's hard to justify using Sceptile IMO. They may not fill the same role, but Sceptile and Virizion have a similar typing with Virizion usually getting the nod due to its defensive typing and ability to be an offensive check to Rhyperior, Zoroark, and Sharpedo in one while still handling most of what Sceptile can handle, with exceptions being Durant, Cinccino, and Cobalion 50% of the time. This makes Sceptile B+ material imo.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

DTC , I get that Sceptile has Leaf Storm and that can nuke some shit, but there's so much crap that resists it. Escavalier, Druddigon, Moltres, Delphox, Yanmega, and, ironically enough, Virizion herself all resist Leaf Storm and can take more than one (well, Delphox really can't) due to solid bulk (4x resist in Mega's case) Considering the fact that these are all S and A rank threats we're talking about, that kinda sucks, especially considering most of these are bulky attackers that you would like to break down. That's not even counting Cresselia, who can take a Leaf Storm just on account of her bulk in general.

GlassGlaceon , ok, you can run HP Fire. Have fun fending off that Moltres or Yanmega your opponent has that's probably going to KO something. Problem is, Sceptile has 4MSS. It really fucking wishes to have HP Rock and HP Fire. It has to choose which serious threats it just lets in almost at will. Do you want to run HP Rock and let Escavalier run all over you? Or would you rather handle Esca with HP Fire and have to deal with Moltres or Yanmega. I also like how you exclude Druddigon from your AV calcs since it's a pretty cool user of the item. HP Rock and Rock Slide 2HKO... yeah, I may not like the accuracy of Stone Edge, but it's OHKOing Tres and Fox at least. Both Virizion and Sceptile have to rely on Focus Blast for their special sets. That's true, but Virizion at least picks up STAB on it.
As for your point on special Sceptile as a whole, it can revenge kill. But in BW, it was so good because it could effectively wallbreak, revenge kill, AND clean up late-game with generally one set. (Sub+3 Attacks) However, it simply can't do that now. Sub+3 Attacks got a huge nerf with crap like Bronzong, Aromatisse, and Registeel coming to the tier on top of Assault Vest making things like Druddigon and Escavalier even bulkier on the special side. The All-Out Attacker set was always a slightly inferior set since so much crap resisted its nuke, Leaf Storm, which still holds true in XY. And we've already gone over SD's losses with no Flying Gem and Virizion around.

Sceptile just is a case of being able to do really good things, but the generation shift just shitting on it. New bulky threats it has a hard time getting past, no Flying Gem and new competition for physical sets, and a lot of things that resists its nuke button, Leaf Storm, to keep it from consistently breaking down walls and bulky attackers. Combine this with the fact that Virizion has such a good defensive typing for the current meta (can come in on Rhyperior, Zoro, and Shark relatively easily) minus the Firespam (which sucks for Sceptile too) and it's hard to justify using Sceptile IMO. They may not fill the same role, but Sceptile and Virizion have a similar typing with Virizion usually getting the nod due to its defensive typing and ability to be an offensive check to Rhyperior, Zoroark, and Sharpedo in one while still handling most of what Sceptile can handle, with exceptions being Durant, Cinccino, and Cobalion 50% of the time. This makes Sceptile B+ material imo.

In regards to druddigon, I specifically noted before posting the calcs that it avoided the 2HKO
I'm about to go to sleep, cuz tired, but I was awake enough to include most of the information needed thank you very much