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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
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Imo they both kinda suck but have niches; I prefer quagod.
Physdef clefable has some sort of niche I guess as a cleric that has certain useful attributes in beating stuff like Mewtwo X and Ekiller, but it's a pretty average physical wall at best.
Quagsire is basically an alternative to hippodown/gliscor/lando that has these pro's/cons
1 doesn't provide sr
2 checks ekiller slightly better [hippo can only phaze]
3 beats CM Eleceus pretty nicely actually
4 still beats mega blaze etc.
5 no ground immunity
6 reliable recovery [lando has none, gliscor only sometimes carries roost]
7 ice neutrality
Its niche is hard to define, but imo it should sound sorta like
Mega Blaziken counter than also counters ekiller p nicely, as well as CM eleceus, but has the cost compared to similar pokemon of being incapable of carrying stealth rock, phazing, or possing a ground immunty. Its Ice neutrality is pretty nice, and it can carry protect>eq or scald (have we decided which is more droppable?) for fearing HJK blaze.
Small, weird niche but an alright mon.
Physdef clefable has some sort of niche I guess as a cleric that has certain useful attributes in beating stuff like Mewtwo X and Ekiller, but it's a pretty average physical wall at best.
Quagsire is basically an alternative to hippodown/gliscor/lando that has these pro's/cons
1 doesn't provide sr
2 checks ekiller slightly better [hippo can only phaze]
3 beats CM Eleceus pretty nicely actually
4 still beats mega blaze etc.
5 no ground immunity
6 reliable recovery [lando has none, gliscor only sometimes carries roost]
7 ice neutrality
Its niche is hard to define, but imo it should sound sorta like
Mega Blaziken counter than also counters ekiller p nicely, as well as CM eleceus, but has the cost compared to similar pokemon of being incapable of carrying stealth rock, phazing, or possing a ground immunty. Its Ice neutrality is pretty nice, and it can carry protect>eq or scald (have we decided which is more droppable?) for fearing HJK blaze.
Small, weird niche but an alright mon.
Why aren't Megas separate?
Can someone just put that in the OP so people don't have to ask that any more?
I have it in the second post afaik, people just can't read. ~MM2
I have it in the second post afaik, people just can't read. ~MM2
Ah. Still, Megas are a forme change that arent exactly part of the regular Pokemon, so they should be separated. Mewtwo isn't S-Rank, and I don't know about MMX because there's no way to tell from this thread. I doubt Char is even viable, and Char Y is likely low C or D. Pokemon with only 1 mega I can understand, but MMX, MMY, Char X, and Char Y need to be separate. Also Blaziken should be separate from it's Mega since it's still viable without a mega evo. All other formes are separate, so why not Megas? All other viability threads separate them, because they're not always as viable as each other, while sometimes still BEING viable.
I ask you to consider splitting Megas, since, as afore mentioned, they're a forme change and play differently or are more viable.
I ask you to consider splitting Megas, since, as afore mentioned, they're a forme change and play differently or are more viable.
They all come from the same base form though, and so for example when you switch say Mewtwo in, the opponent has no idea what form it is and thus you can take advantage if they switch in the wrong counter. And the form changes for Mewtwo and Charizard are pretty similar in tiering anyway so there's little point in separating megas imo.
However, there is still a difference, and their viability is still different. They should be separate. That helps their viability, but doesn't necessarily make them equal.
Been spending a lot of time near the top of the ladder. Going to make some crazy statements here.
I would drop Gengar to A+. This is after having used it for several months. Its just way too easy
to knock out.
Mewtwo is also A+. I can count the number of times that a Mewtwo has beaten me pretty much on one hand
at this point. And this is over the span of several months. It doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as Kyogre and Xerneas, who are gods among Pokemon.
Arceus-Normal is S. Unless I'm the only one who knows how to use him. You have to run Lum Berry/Recover.
I've hit Top 5 on the ladder multiple times and if I had to attribute that to one Pokemon, it would be
Arceus-Normal.
Landorus-T at A+ is too high. I keep seeing it this high and putting it on my team. Its just not as good
as everything else in the tier thats with it. I look at the other A+s and think "those are good Pokemon".
I look at "Landorus-T" and think "Unless you have a specific strategy you probably just wasted a spot
on your team".
I'm not suggesting to move Dialga up but its a very underrated pokemon. If you aren't running a STRONG
fighting or ground move its going to be death to kill.
Why are Electric/Poison/Water Arc's A- while Fairy/Ground is B+? Not arguing this here either but
I am curious.
Specs Kyurem-W is still very good and hits very very hard. I'd consider moving it up to B.
Why are Shuckle/Smeargle in C+ and not B-? They are VERY niche but due to their stats and/or movepools
they perform their jobs admirably.
Ditto is really good in this tier. If you know how to use him. He's not just a revenge killer. See a
Shuckle on their team? Lead with Ditto and you just negated their sticky webs. Darkrai? Ditto's faster,
go to sleep son. Scizor? No Scizor's carry super effective moves, safely switch in, etc.
I could actually go on all day with Ditto. I'd move it up too.
I would drop Gengar to A+. This is after having used it for several months. Its just way too easy
to knock out.
Mewtwo is also A+. I can count the number of times that a Mewtwo has beaten me pretty much on one hand
at this point. And this is over the span of several months. It doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as Kyogre and Xerneas, who are gods among Pokemon.
Arceus-Normal is S. Unless I'm the only one who knows how to use him. You have to run Lum Berry/Recover.
I've hit Top 5 on the ladder multiple times and if I had to attribute that to one Pokemon, it would be
Arceus-Normal.
Landorus-T at A+ is too high. I keep seeing it this high and putting it on my team. Its just not as good
as everything else in the tier thats with it. I look at the other A+s and think "those are good Pokemon".
I look at "Landorus-T" and think "Unless you have a specific strategy you probably just wasted a spot
on your team".
I'm not suggesting to move Dialga up but its a very underrated pokemon. If you aren't running a STRONG
fighting or ground move its going to be death to kill.
Why are Electric/Poison/Water Arc's A- while Fairy/Ground is B+? Not arguing this here either but
I am curious.
Specs Kyurem-W is still very good and hits very very hard. I'd consider moving it up to B.
Why are Shuckle/Smeargle in C+ and not B-? They are VERY niche but due to their stats and/or movepools
they perform their jobs admirably.
Ditto is really good in this tier. If you know how to use him. He's not just a revenge killer. See a
Shuckle on their team? Lead with Ditto and you just negated their sticky webs. Darkrai? Ditto's faster,
go to sleep son. Scizor? No Scizor's carry super effective moves, safely switch in, etc.
I could actually go on all day with Ditto. I'd move it up too.
Before i start, i should point out (because someone is going to either way): Ladder play isn't exactly the best way to say "I know my shit" and isn't worth using as a way to prove points.
Anyways, Gengar is not S because of its offensive potential or any of the common critera matching it, Mega Gengar is S rank because it is unrivaled in its ability to trap and kill almost any pokemon that can cause your team problems. Palkia is stopping Kyogre sweeping? Gengar gets rid of it. Lugia or Scizor is stopping Xerneas sweeping? Gengar will get rid of it. Theres a support Arceus preventing you stacking hazards? Gengar will remove it. Need a way to put a hole in a stall team? Gengar does it no problem. I could go on. Mega Gengar is, alongside Xerneas, one of the most metagame defining things to happen to Ubers since Arceus itself was introduced - many players dislike XY Ubers purely because of Mega Gengar. Stall teams need a pursuit trapper almost certainly to stop Gengar wrecking the team. Certain pokemon have fell completely out of viability or have had their viability reduced purely because Mega Gengar exists. If there was a tier above S I would expect Gengar to be there. Saying Gengar is A+ is absolute madness.
Mewtwo for A+ I won't argue against, i thought the same myself but I was proven wrong.
Landorus-T is overrated a little, but thats just my opinion.
Electric Arceus is A- because its nearly unrivalled as a good Calm Mind sweeper, but is tough to put on a team.
Water Arceus is A- because it can check many pokemon with one mon while also having offensive capabilites as a CM sweeper.
Poison Arceus is A- mainly because Xerneas exists and without Mewtwo or Deoxys taking it down is not a easy task.
Ditto is dead weight vs most teams (Ladder only knows offense really so you may have a different view as you have played a lot of it) Its fine where it is.
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Mega Evolutions function largely as different sets of a single Pokemon though. Just as most of the Pokemon have multiple viable sets (and lots of options for unviable sets), with different combinations of items, EVs, natures and moves, the Mega Evolutions often just extend the capability of the Pokemon rather than changing it drastically. There are of course exceptions in Mega Evolutions which gain powerful abilities and/or critical stat boosts, which would not otherwise be viable, but most are quite similar, often with the same typing and always with the same movepool. This differs from Arceus, as it can have 17 different types and effectively gains a new move in Judgment with each forme.
Perhaps the clearest approach to this is the battling implications. When a Pokemon is sent out, effectively checking it requires being able to check all its (viable) sets, even if examining a team structure closely can suggest which sets are most likely. In this sense, Mega Evolutions are just another set; checking a Mega Evolution is checking a possible set of that Pokemon, which is often revealed on the first turn it is used, but not until it has made a move. Just as some Pokemon are not viable unless they Mega Evolve, some Pokemon only have one distinct, viable set. Some Pokemon only have one viable set, just as some are only viable as their Mega Evolutions. Conversely, Arceus formes reveal their type as they enter battle, and this is often quite telling of how they are checked (even if many of the formes have multiple possible sets).
Gengar do fit on pretty much every team, can often remove pokes that would annoy you, or stop your sweep, but there's still some things that hold him back. Gengar first of all have a base speed stat of 110, which he will keep the turn he mega evolves, and a lot of big threats that you're supposed to trap, outspeed and kill, can kill you before you get your Destiny Bond up. Shadow Tag, just like your speed, won't activate before the turn after you've mega'ed. While Gengar can often force switches, sometimes he can't and either won't have the bulk to safely mega, or he never gets the chance until he's up against a +2 E-Killler who can outspeed and kill. GeoXern can also run Psyshock to laugh at you. Good offensive pressure can stop Gengar. Something that really frustrates me is that on a Sticky Web team, he won't outspeed +2 Xern (especially when they have Psyshock), before he mega evolves, and against good HO builds, you're gonna have troubble finding a free turn to mega. You can always run protect, which I've seen been used and is a nice way to bait pokes who outspeed regular Gengar to stay in, but it is really situasional, and gives Gengar a 4MMS.
Against stall, I've often heard people just syaing that he can doubble into a Chansey, or Blissey, or most Fairy-Types for that matter, and then mega. But you'll have to do this one more time before you can succesfully trap anything. And remember that the one having Mega Gengar is not the only one who can predict. Imo, the Gengar doubble switch is the easiest doubble switch to predict, while not really a reliable way to deal with it, it will still annoy the shit out of Gengar. Stall can also have Puruit trappers who will trap the trapper. Whil this is kinda the same as using Aegislash or Scizor for Xern, one could say that it is not a reason to say that Gengar is less viable, and is used because Gengar is so good. But at the other hand, most of you guys seem to like trapping so insanely much that it might as well still be a good point, imo. We can also compare Gengar and Darkrai (more like the Darkrai we knew in gen5, tho), they're big threats, but most (good) teams has ways to deal with them. Let's also compare him to Landorus-T, he is a nice one time check to some big threats, but when another threat comes, he isn't gonna help much more. Gengar can "remove" one threat, but chances are another one who is just as threatning to the rest of your team may come, and when your one time check is gone, you might not have much else to defend yourself agaisnt it.
The last thing I wanna say is that it is not that easy to trap something with Gengar. You mentioned a Palkia can stop your Kyogre sweep, so you just trap him. Well, what if he carries Toxic, or T-Wave? Suddenly you are in a tricky 50-50 situasion at best (if it was Toxic) After that you can either Taunt, and risk getting OHKO'd (Leftovers Palkia don't have that high chance of OHKO'ing, but I'll assume that you used Kyogre to bait the Palkia in), or you could Destiny Bond Hoping he attacks and kills, or you attack twice, hopipng he doesn't attack or KO you the first turn. And to top it off, Palkia can just switch out the first time he comes in. Yveltal can do similar things, like going for a non-attacking move, and start some tricky predictions, or if he got the Taunt off on you, he can now force you out, if less you hit him really hard or something. But Gengars usually don't go for an attacking move when they can't OHKO, and they risk being OHKO'dd themself.
Gengar can use other coverage moves like HP Fire or Icy Wind to remove certain threats, but it makes him lose out on other much needed coverage. The item Shed Shell for Blissey is growing more popular (even tho I haven't run into any)
While I am not neccerarily saying that he is A+ instead of S, I just really wanted to say that Mega Gengar is overhyped. he can not just trap something and then be happy. One of the really good things I like about him is his Toxic, and his two types-immunity, which gives him a lot of free switches. Just stop saying that he has an easy time trapping, because he don't.
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 239-282 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Doesn't need Psyshock. This shows how frail Gengar is. It can't take moderately strong attacks at all.
Blissey can use Leftovers with Flamethrower or Thunder and beat Mega Gengar most of the time. Shed Shell Blissey sucks.
0 SpA Blissey Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 66-78 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (If Thunder paralyzes, Blissey wins).
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 54-64 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
EDIT Minority Suspect below:
You may be right. I like getting cheap paralysis, haxing my opponent, and winning. Paralysis + recover move is a great combo no doubt, as you can paralyze your opponent, spam recovery move till your opponent is fully paralyzed and switch out afterwards.
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I've used both Shed Shell Blissey and Flame Blissey quite extensively and honestly I think I enjoy Flame Blissey more. I was off put to it at first because it is completely removed by Perish Trap Gengar, but the lefties recovery and the ability to surprise KO stuff like Scizor, Genesect, and Ferrothorn (well if they have chip damage) is actually not bad. I've run Counter to fuck over stuff like Ho-Oh too, but Blissey has bad four move slot syndrome. LusturousPalkia, Blissey struggles against Sub Geo Xern with or without Seismic Toss because it should be getting 100+ HP subs, and generally Seismic Toss is such a played out move at this point that even when I do run it, I rarely use it (Toxic is Blissey's main method of stalling shit out). Anikrahman, Blissey should never run Thunder, there is literally never a time when it will be useful and its movepool is so large compared to what it has to run that there are always better more gimmicky moves to run. Blissey is fine where it is, Gengar needs a higher rank, and Grass-ceus is not being discussed.
I'm primarily an OU and lower player, though I do play Ubers occasionally, so forgive my inexperience when I ask: why is Blissey so much more viable than Chansey? The situation is reversed in OU.
...Sorry.
But those changes make a very big difference in viability. Plus there are exceptions -- Mewtwo being the obvious one.
Really, it only makes a difference on a few Pokemon as the normal form usually isn't viable anyways (Gengar, Kangaskhan, Lucario, etc.) Pretty much just the Mewtwo formes, Blaziken, and possibly Scizor would need to be ranked as far as I can tell. I don't see any reason not to, it just makes the list that much more informative.
Arceus-Grass B- -> B: Arceus-Grass is probably the definition of a mixed bag in terms of Arceus formes since its uses will almost never make it deadweight as it will always have a use in almost every battle unlike some formes that either have a hard time switching in due to match up reliance since they only check / counter very specific threats. Grasseus doesn't have this problem against well built teams since it checks both Groudon and Kyogre, it is able to reliably revenge KO an offensive Palkia at around half HP with Grass Knot, check the myriad of Ground-types running around to check Zekrom and or just be threatening in their own ways, and it can also threaten Choicedkrom locked into Bolt Strike with Will-O-Wisp. It can reliably force switches against any well built team is the thing which is a problem that I have found with both Arceus-Rock and Darkceus (both of which it share the B- tier with Grassy). It fits on quite a few team archetypes as well including, but not limited to, most Klefki Balance teams and Sand Balance that can't fit a Palkia as their Water sponge because of the use of a Gyarados as a Blaze check. Problems with Grassy are that it draws in Poultry (Turkey, Chicken, and Mega Chicken) and the Bacon Bird like no other, and is weak to Mega Gengar's Poison STAB. The nice part is that Grassy is an effective lure for most of these, since it has th option to run Stone Edge for the birds (namely Ho-Oh, Yveltal isn't OHKOed) or Earthquake to discourage Mega Gengar and Blaziken from coming in on it. Its problems aren't mitigated entirely by this since it only has room for one of these moves usually but it does narrow its reliable switch ins before Grassy is scouted. Grassy can also fore-go Defog's moveslot for one of these moves and a status move to be on the same set if it is on a Sand Balance along with an Excadrill. Darkceus' weakness to fairies is something it cannot help unless it wants to give up its primary role as stall breaker, meaning it has much more reliable switch ins than Grassy. Darkceus Is also much more match up reliant than Grassy since its only role vs Hyper Offense is more or less GeoXern fodder. Darkcy also requires quite a bit of support to function vs Balance but it excels vs stall which is what makes it B- Rank above all else. Grassy doesn't suffer from these problems due to the ability to be an effective lure for its checks, and its ability to force switches against almost all teams which should set it above Darkceus in the B Rank. "But WreckDra, Darkceus can just be paired with Mega Gengar in order to make an effective lure", this means you are not only using two team slots, but you are also using up you Arceus slot and your Mega slot which comes out to quite a bit of opportunity cost when it compared to Grassy if you ask me.
I'm sorry if this is bit scatter brained (Its late :P) but I hope it got my points across OK. I haven't used Steelceus at all this gen so I can't say much about it other than what will more than likely be pointless theorymoning.
I'm looking forward to seeing other responses.
I'm sorry if this is bit scatter brained (Its late :P) but I hope it got my points across OK. I haven't used Steelceus at all this gen so I can't say much about it other than what will more than likely be pointless theorymoning.
I'm looking forward to seeing other responses.
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Mega Gengar is a huge reason why Blissey > Chansey. Because Blissey can hold an item + has appreciable SpA, it can either use Shed Shell to bypass Shadow Tag or go for the 4-5HKO with a move like Flamethrower or Thunder (which is used over Seismic Toss). Chansey, however, is completely helpless against Mega Gengar; a simple double switch will doom it and put its user at a massive disadvantage.
Blissey can also choose to hold Leftovers, which gives it more wiggle room in switching in; the passive healing also works well with Protect if it is used.
As such, Chansey's viability is hugely eclipsed by Blissey's.
I HOPE I HELPED!!!
Blissey can also choose to hold Leftovers, which gives it more wiggle room in switching in; the passive healing also works well with Protect if it is used.
As such, Chansey's viability is hugely eclipsed by Blissey's.
I HOPE I HELPED!!!
Idk if this has been brought up yet, but what's the verdict on victini, quaza, and deo-d?
This requires effort. Any player too lazy to look into why Blissey is better is too lazy to look a few posts back in the thread. This will never stop unless right on the viability ranking each mon has a description of why it is where it is, and even then these stupid questions will most likely persist.
On the topic of Arceus-Steel I don't like it, however I have never actually used it extensively. It seems to fail at checking many of the most common mons in the tier and/or is just complete bait for them. Ones that come to mind are Kyogre, Mega Gengar, Xerneas (Focus Blast is first slashed for some reason on the Geo set), Mega Blaze, Ho-oh, Darkrai, Palkia, EKiller, Groudon, Heatran, Arceus-Ground, better CM Arceus like Water, MM2X, the list just goes on. It fails to check anything that is S rank, and fails to check most things in A rank. Is there a really good reason to ever use steel as your Arceus forum, I mean it does get the most resist but other CM or support Arceus sets just seem to be better. I think it should be dropped to C+, maybe more but I'm not sure.
I've been using Victini (Trick Room and Scarf sets) and its pretty cool deserving a place on this list somewhere, I think C+ for this one too is also a good place to start. The Trick Room set checks Xern pretty well, and V-Create is just a great move in general and the speed drop paired with Trick Room allows it to clean decently enough. Rayquaza if freaking Rayquaza ksr15, it will always be awsm. I haven't used Deoxys-D this meta yet so I don't know what to say other than Toxic is everywhere and it seems like a major momentum killer (for the player using it). Idk, maybe its good but if you're going to use a wall really weak to Toxic might as well go with Lugia right, if only Lugia learned Taunt.
I believe Mega Mewtwo Y should be dropped to A+, possibly A rank.
It has precisely two advantages over its unevolved form: trollish base 140 speed and the CM+Rest+Insomnia gimmick.
I consider that set a gimmick because it's pretty much a worse GeoXerneas, since it gets only one chance to set-up, has worse stats after setting up (+1 SpA/SpD MMY doesn't even compare to +2 SpA/SpD/Spe Xerneas), much worse typing and, worst of all, is stuck with just one coverage move, while Mewtwo needs at least two.
Is there a reason to use CM+Rest MMY at all over Xerneas with Psyshock?
The lack of LO recoil isn't really an advantage compared to standard Mewtwo because MMY has worse physical bulk and priority is everywhere in ubers.
MMY's opportunity cost is just too high when you could use standard Mewtwo alongside something like Mega Gengar.
The "all Mewtwo formes should share the same rank because it makes it unpredictable as a whole" argument doesn't really work - in the OU viability thread Megazard Y was dropped because even if you mispredict, you're better off acting like you're facing Megazard X because that's the one you really don't want to give a free turn.
I don't know about you guys, when I see Mewtwo as the only possible mega evolution in the opponent's team I'm definitely not nearly as worried as when I see Mewtwo+Gengar.
As for Mega Mewtwo X, I admit I don't have much experience with it so I reserve my judgment for now.
It has precisely two advantages over its unevolved form: trollish base 140 speed and the CM+Rest+Insomnia gimmick.
I consider that set a gimmick because it's pretty much a worse GeoXerneas, since it gets only one chance to set-up, has worse stats after setting up (+1 SpA/SpD MMY doesn't even compare to +2 SpA/SpD/Spe Xerneas), much worse typing and, worst of all, is stuck with just one coverage move, while Mewtwo needs at least two.
Is there a reason to use CM+Rest MMY at all over Xerneas with Psyshock?
The lack of LO recoil isn't really an advantage compared to standard Mewtwo because MMY has worse physical bulk and priority is everywhere in ubers.
MMY's opportunity cost is just too high when you could use standard Mewtwo alongside something like Mega Gengar.
The "all Mewtwo formes should share the same rank because it makes it unpredictable as a whole" argument doesn't really work - in the OU viability thread Megazard Y was dropped because even if you mispredict, you're better off acting like you're facing Megazard X because that's the one you really don't want to give a free turn.
I don't know about you guys, when I see Mewtwo as the only possible mega evolution in the opponent's team I'm definitely not nearly as worried as when I see Mewtwo+Gengar.
As for Mega Mewtwo X, I admit I don't have much experience with it so I reserve my judgment for now.
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