-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Flygon
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
Yea, without HP (presumably Water) you're left useless vs common phazers like Ttar, Lix and Skarm.
In GSC, morning sun is more of an after thought on Espeon, and in fact, if you want to be successful with Espeon with some real consistency, I wouldn't recommend using Morning Sun. What does Morning Sun do for you? It literally beats Starmie (barely), and that's it. You can't really MS vs electrics. Thunder hits too hard. It allows you to be a reliable check to machamp, but if you're using Espeon for steady defensive switches then you should just be using Starmie. HP Water is cool, except Exeggutor stuffs you.
2 attacks with BP - Psychic/HP Water/Growth/BP
Sub Espy (the best IMO) - psychic/sub/growth/BP
3 attacks (underrated) - psychic/bite/HP Water/growth
Unfortunately the elephant in the room is that Lax just destroys Espeon and needs to be crippled or dead for Espeon to get much going. In many games Espeon just has too limited of an impact and you're left wishing you had a mon that was bringing more defense or utility to the rest of your team.
Last edited:
It allows Espeon to stick around and continue being a threat for a long time, despite chip damage and potential Spikes.
It's half the reason to use Espeon, the other half being STAB Psychic for Raikou. It's not like it's the only GrowthPasser in GSC.
Just a random fact, Giga Drain always misses against Substitute. I discovered it the hard way. SubEspy is a total boss against Exeggutor. It's hard to say which of the two moves is better though. Morning Sun Espeon does a decent job against Machamp and Nidoking if you need to fall back on it, and it's useful for shrugging off residual damage (like Spikes or random Skarmory DPs) and for actually sticking around in those long games. I think there's good for Sub too that there's another useful option like Morning Sun, since Sub will generally work better when it's not too predictable. And then there's Reflect too. Never tried it, but should give Espeon a decent chance against Snorlax, assuming you Reflect/Growth on the switch-in (preferably Growth, then Reflect right before Snorlax moves). Body Slam's paralysis threat would be annoying though.
I think I know where all those calcs are coming from, Isa. If so, if you add the spikes damage option to the mix, the calc assumes that the opponent is being attacked on the switch-in. In this particular scenario where you'd be growthing on the switch-in, opponent's effectively only taking 6.25% damage from Spikes, since you would start dealing damage to it at 15/16 (93.75) health instead of 14/16 (87.5).
Last edited:
Mushroom, half the reason? I'd say it's more like 90% of the reason is for beating Raikou, the other 10% is for growth passing (and non of it is for Morning Sun). It's not the only growth passer, sure, but it's certainly also not the only recovering psychic poke.
A slower paced Espeon set that can actually be surprisingly useful is Psychic/Growth/Toxic/Morning Sun.
Common Espeon switch ins (Snorlax, TTar, Egg) all hate toxic. It can actually really bother some teams.
A slower paced Espeon set that can actually be surprisingly useful is Psychic/Growth/Toxic/Morning Sun.
Common Espeon switch ins (Snorlax, TTar, Egg) all hate toxic. It can actually really bother some teams.
Espeon is a GrowthPasser. Jolteon is also a GrowthPasser. Why use Espeon? 1) STAB Psychic for Raikou 2) Morning Sun gives you more pass attempts.
After spending GSC and ADV in BL, Scizor got its big break in Platinum when it gained Bullet Punch, which turned it into a major threat in DPP and BW. So, what were its greatest niches and sets throughout the ages? What were its best counters and teammates, and what did it counter and check best? Everything about Scizor is up for discussion this week ^.^
Scizor in gsc ou is pretty bad, let's be real here. It's only purpose is baton passing either agilities or swords dances or substitutes, which might be good on paper, but whenever scizor enters the battle it will stare down a skarmory, a steelix, a suicune or even raikou or rhydon to some extent. Baton pass is just the only thing it isn't terrible at, and everyone can see a baton pass coming from miles away. For speed and/or sub passing it is even outclassed by Jolteon.
With hidden power bug, hidden power steel and wing attack being the only "real" attack moves it can make use of it won't be able to effectively use those stat boosts and you are better off with one of the more conventional sweepers instead of the steel bug.
With hidden power bug, hidden power steel and wing attack being the only "real" attack moves it can make use of it won't be able to effectively use those stat boosts and you are better off with one of the more conventional sweepers instead of the steel bug.
yea sciz is p bad in gsc and adv, due to low power moves and being unable to dent the main phazers
on the plus side, his gsc sprite is pretty neat
on the plus side, his gsc sprite is pretty neat
While GSC and ADV were pretty lackluster for Scizor, DPP couldn't have been much kinder to it. Technician was a huge boon, especially since it boosted Scizor's new toys Bullet Punch and Bug Bite (as well as the already present Quick Attack). Just as important was U-turn, which allowed it to maintain constant momentum for the team. Pursuit going physical was extremely helpful for punishing Ghosts and Psychics Choice-locked into the wrong move, and it got a Technician boost if they stayed in to boot. It also gained Superpower for dealing with other Steels like Heatran and Magnezone switching in, as well as the more conservative Brick Break for non-Choiced sets. Finally, it gained Roost as well, which meant its Swords Dance and Baton Pass sets could stick around longer. DPP really gave Scizor a chance to make use of its great typing and base 130 Attack, especially with Technician priority attacks making up for that mediocre Speed.
Steel Wing as well (ie, it can use both its STABs at once). But yeah Skarm/Lix/WW Zapdos hardwall (Suicune less so; +2 STAB HP Bug hurts) and random Fire moves are both common and instantly fatal. I mean, if you absolutely need Swords Dance passed to something (Aerodactyl? Flail/Reversal stuff? Curse is a universal TM in GSC so the only things that want an SD pass are things that don't want a speed drop) then there literally aren't any other options besides Smeargle, but that's the sum total of its use (apart from AgiEndRev which is bad).
Oh, and can we do Mewtwo at some point? While it's always been Uber, its niche within Ubers has changed quite dramatically over the years.
Last edited:
GSC Scizor is not great, but better than people think it is. Not every team uses a Steel Phazer, and passing SD is pretty rad. Most of my Ttar teams could be destroyed by a well-played Scizor.
Fortunately, the set of people who actually use Scizor is wholly contained within the set of terrible players, thereby precluding the "well-played" descriptor.
Fortunately, the set of people who actually use Scizor is wholly contained within the set of terrible players, thereby precluding the "well-played" descriptor.
When Platinum came around and Scizor got BP it became one of the best mons in the metagame, especially when Latias came down. It was #1 in usage for a long ass time and eventually the CBer was so commonplace that people were building their teams around abusing it (for example MysticGar + Zone, I remember Phil had LO Sceptile / Zone / DDmence). When the dragons got banned Scizor fell a lot in usage although it's still very good, CB is decent, Scarf is solid and bulky SD is one of the best sweepers.
In BW Scizor started out as a bulky SpD SD set to sweep and check shit like Darkrai/Reuniclus. Eventually it started to shift back to CB when VolTurn was on the rise and that's how it left off till the end of BW1 although I remember there were a few Jolly LO SD sets around. When BW2 came around Scizor basically disappeared with the introduction of Genesect (some people used both on the same team but for the most part it was rare). After Gene was banned Sciz popped back up with the Acrobatics @ Flying Gem set to destroy shit like Jellicent, I actually remember Funkasaurus as the first person to mention it. It still uses that set today along with Scarf.
In BW Scizor started out as a bulky SpD SD set to sweep and check shit like Darkrai/Reuniclus. Eventually it started to shift back to CB when VolTurn was on the rise and that's how it left off till the end of BW1 although I remember there were a few Jolly LO SD sets around. When BW2 came around Scizor basically disappeared with the introduction of Genesect (some people used both on the same team but for the most part it was rare). After Gene was banned Sciz popped back up with the Acrobatics @ Flying Gem set to destroy shit like Jellicent, I actually remember Funkasaurus as the first person to mention it. It still uses that set today along with Scarf.
Could you give an example of one of these Scizor-weak teams?
Snorlax/TTar/Zapdos/Cloyster/Exeggutor/Nidoking
Ttar can't Phaze it, you can pass Agi so you don't have to tank a Zapdos Thunder when you want to pass out, Curselax can struggle to simply Curse up against a SD BPer (who could be giving the boosts to Machamp or Rhydon) the same way it can attempt to thwart AgiPass.
Ttar can't Phaze it, you can pass Agi so you don't have to tank a Zapdos Thunder when you want to pass out, Curselax can struggle to simply Curse up against a SD BPer (who could be giving the boosts to Machamp or Rhydon) the same way it can attempt to thwart AgiPass.
Do you run SubSeed on Egg or something? Because that team would otherwise seem to have a significant weakness against EQ CurseLax. This is why I was confused - the counters to Scizor are largely the same counters (Skarmory and Steelix) that are commonly used to protect against Earthquake Snorlax.
I feel like scizor in DPP hasn't been talked about enough, it had a crazy time with it.
Originally it was kind of uncommon, but it had a niche with its bulky SD roost quick attack set and great set of resistances. Heatran wasn't as common as it is now and scizor could set up on the majority of old school walls (see obi stall).
Then platinum came out, providing scizor with bullet punch. It seemed like everyone was using SD scizor, with all different kinds of offensive and defensive EV spreads. But everyone came to the unanimous decision that too many things resist bullet punch. On came the rise of choice band scizor, something which no one saw coming. This was mainly for its revenge killing capabilities as it handled a lot of scary threats in the metagame. Such as latias, salamence and gengar; as well as older threats like weavile, alakazam and cresselia.
SD scizor was still popular especially the iron plate set which helped disguised the set. The other big change to scizor which is often under looked is the addition of superpower, an excellent coversge move for the pokemon most notably ohking heatran and magnezone on the switch in.
Scizor was so popular that offensive pokemon like gengar and latias would run HP fire, solely for scizor and nothing else really. Sacrificing both a moveslot and a speed iv, not having max speed is a big deal for most of these pokes.
Now I feel like CB scizor is mainly used for its trapping capabilities combined with the most powerful u-turn in the game. SD scizor remains a solid set and there is still not one 'stand out' EV spread for it, especially the defensive sets.
Originally it was kind of uncommon, but it had a niche with its bulky SD roost quick attack set and great set of resistances. Heatran wasn't as common as it is now and scizor could set up on the majority of old school walls (see obi stall).
Then platinum came out, providing scizor with bullet punch. It seemed like everyone was using SD scizor, with all different kinds of offensive and defensive EV spreads. But everyone came to the unanimous decision that too many things resist bullet punch. On came the rise of choice band scizor, something which no one saw coming. This was mainly for its revenge killing capabilities as it handled a lot of scary threats in the metagame. Such as latias, salamence and gengar; as well as older threats like weavile, alakazam and cresselia.
SD scizor was still popular especially the iron plate set which helped disguised the set. The other big change to scizor which is often under looked is the addition of superpower, an excellent coversge move for the pokemon most notably ohking heatran and magnezone on the switch in.
Scizor was so popular that offensive pokemon like gengar and latias would run HP fire, solely for scizor and nothing else really. Sacrificing both a moveslot and a speed iv, not having max speed is a big deal for most of these pokes.
Now I feel like CB scizor is mainly used for its trapping capabilities combined with the most powerful u-turn in the game. SD scizor remains a solid set and there is still not one 'stand out' EV spread for it, especially the defensive sets.
Yeah, in the modern age of competitive battling DP and later), besides Garchomp, nothing has been as significant as Platinum Scizor.
I don't remember Band being held off at the beginning of Platinum though. I was sure it was instantly as popular as SD (because of Salamence). The main thing was that people prepared more often for SD, when Bullet Punch was used more than U-turn.
Last edited:
Wobbuffet has an interesting history, being UU in GSC before jumping up to Ubers in ADV and DPP thanks to Shadow Tag, then falling back to BL in BW. With a very limited movepool and highly specialized stats, Wobb's a pretty straight-forward Pokemon as far as sets and roles go. Instead, let's focus on the support Wobbuffet brings to its team, what Pokemon best benefit from having it around, and what the best ways to counter it (both in Ubers and the OUs it was allowed in) are.
Well Wobby in GSC was straight garbage. Unless you baton pass Mean Look/Spider Web, but even then it doesn't have Encore to prevent your opponent from just setting up on its face. Not worth using, not even in UU.
In ADV it received Shadow Tag and Encore and went straight to Ubers since it could get some easy kills with those tools. Also Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet with both holding Leftovers would last forever.
In ADV it received Shadow Tag and Encore and went straight to Ubers since it could get some easy kills with those tools. Also Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet with both holding Leftovers would last forever.
wobbuffet is amazing in dpp uber. it does a lot of things for offensive teams (where it fits best and is used the most). first of all if a scarfer comes in for a revenge kill, wobb comes in and traps it easily, taking little damage thanks to its just-good-enough defenses and massive hp. it is also very good at abusing encore to get free turns for its teammates. safeguard guards against status so you can, for example, lock a giratina into will-o-wisp and safely switch in rayquaza or lucario for an sd. sometimes tickle is used to get -6 defense against lugia so scizor or tyranitar can ohko with pursuit. custap destiny bond is also quite fun.
In GSC it's garbage. No Encore means it can't actually beat anything - even the Hidden Power Legends can frustrate it somewhat (Hidden Power is bounced by Counter, not Mirror Coat in GSC, even if it's special), and obviously any CurseRoarer just Curses until it's slow enough to Roar Wobbuffet out and KO it on the switch back in (non-Roar Cursers have trouble thanks to Destiny Bond, but that's mostly just Snorlax and Machamp). Growthers beat it straight-up; so does anything with Toxic or Leech Seed (ToxicLax excepted because Safeguard actually works against it). Moreover, it's free turns for your opponent to set screens, get Rest turns off, set or remove Spikes, Heal Bell, whatever. If you actually want a Pokemon that can't attack but forces a lot of switches by being an annoyance, use Meganium (Leech Seed + indestructible), Jumpluff (Leech Seed + Encore) or something else along those lines.
Don't use Wobbuffet in GSC.
Don't use Wobbuffet in GSC.
Last edited:
As I recently discovered, GSC Wobbuffett forces mixed Tyranitar to run Crunch if it wishes to maxmin-optimize the amount of damage it can do to any possible non-Uber Pokemon. So at least there's that?
You don't even need to be able to set up on GSC Wobb to beat it; it has no way to stop infinite switching.
I hear mutual Leftovers Wobbuffett was loads of fun in ADV times.
You don't even need to be able to set up on GSC Wobb to beat it; it has no way to stop infinite switching.
I hear mutual Leftovers Wobbuffett was loads of fun in ADV times.