Im personally hoping for at least 130 SpAtk. Even though Dark/Ghost are extremely spammable, they do have redundant coverage. The biggest problem with a SpAtk around 100-110 is that Sableye has a rather poor offensive movepool (no Focus Blast, wtf). His moves are also rather lacking in the high base power department. I also have a curious question: Will Prankster work on the turn it Mega Evolves? Like if I throw out a taunt at a Deoxys-S the turn I MEvo, will it go first or just fail? Im sure some hackmon players could tell me but I'm not sure about this.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Pokémon Sableye
- Thread starter farranpoison
- Start date
- Status
Im personally hoping for at least 130 SpAtk. Even though Dark/Ghost are extremely spammable, they do have redundant coverage. The biggest problem with a SpAtk around 100-110 is that Sableye has a rather poor offensive movepool (no Focus Blast, wtf). His moves are also rather lacking in the high base power department. I also have a curious question: Will Prankster work on the turn it Mega Evolves? Like if I throw out a taunt at a Deoxys-S the turn I MEvo, will it go first or just fail? Im sure some hackmon players could tell me but I'm not sure about this.
Prankster will indeed work on that first turn. It's the same way that things like Chlorophyll are applied in terms of how the speed/priority mechanics work when mega evolving in general.
Depending on how big these boosts to Mega Sableye's Defense and Special Attack are, and whether or not its Special Defense is buffed, it might be able to run an effective boosting tank set along these lines:
Sableye @ Sablite
Ability: Prankster (Magic Bounce)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk (Calm Mind alternative spread)
Calm Nature
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Recover
The given EVs and nature assume Mega Sableye's Defense is as astronomical as its description suggests, and aim to patch up its lesser Special Defense for great all-around bulk. As Aura Flare Riolu pointed out, Sableye gets a guaranteed un-Tauntable priority status move the turn it Mega Evolves due to turn order being decided first and foremost. Even if you switch un-Mega'd Sableye into an attack, it can immediately Recover off the damage and take any follow-up hit even easier with its buffed Defense. From there it's click Nasty Plot and wreck or Recover as necessary (or GTFO if you neglected to take out Sylveon and Gardevoir prior to setting up).
And I just remembered Sableye gets Calm Mind as I'm writing this, so that might be a more effective option!
Edit: On another note, I like how Mega Sableye is gonna be something like a Cofagrigus+. Similar stat distribution, but with better typing, reliable recovery, and immunity to Taunt (bar Mega Gyarados). This is gonna be fun. owo
Sableye @ Sablite
Ability: Prankster (Magic Bounce)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk (Calm Mind alternative spread)
Calm Nature
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Recover
The given EVs and nature assume Mega Sableye's Defense is as astronomical as its description suggests, and aim to patch up its lesser Special Defense for great all-around bulk. As Aura Flare Riolu pointed out, Sableye gets a guaranteed un-Tauntable priority status move the turn it Mega Evolves due to turn order being decided first and foremost. Even if you switch un-Mega'd Sableye into an attack, it can immediately Recover off the damage and take any follow-up hit even easier with its buffed Defense. From there it's click Nasty Plot and wreck or Recover as necessary (or GTFO if you neglected to take out Sylveon and Gardevoir prior to setting up).
And I just remembered Sableye gets Calm Mind as I'm writing this, so that might be a more effective option!
Edit: On another note, I like how Mega Sableye is gonna be something like a Cofagrigus+. Similar stat distribution, but with better typing, reliable recovery, and immunity to Taunt (bar Mega Gyarados). This is gonna be fun. owo
Last edited:
It's the only Magic Bounce user that gets Recover, Knock Off (unless Absol gets it?), and Will-O-Wisp while also not being shit defensively, which is nice.
It also has Dazzling Gleam, and doesn't the combination of Fairy/Ghost or Fairy/Dark have great coverage or something?
EDIT: Just checked, Litleo and Pyroar are the only 2 Pokemon in existence that resist the combination of Fairy and Ghost, while Mawile and Klefki are the only ones to resist Fairy and Dark.
It also has Dazzling Gleam, and doesn't the combination of Fairy/Ghost or Fairy/Dark have great coverage or something?
EDIT: Just checked, Litleo and Pyroar are the only 2 Pokemon in existence that resist the combination of Fairy and Ghost, while Mawile and Klefki are the only ones to resist Fairy and Dark.
Last edited:
Pity. They intend to make Sableye into another one of those dubious Trick Room set-ups, only they forgot what made the base form viable. Sableye didn't need a defense or SpA boost, it badly needs a SpD one. Spiritomb already exists and has +105 BST on Sableye (Megas give +100 BST, not entirely a false equivalency) and nobody uses NP on it. Obviously, the BST is going to be different and Spiritomb doesn't get Recover or nice abilities, but we have to be mindful of possible stat distributions - I would be skeptical even if it did have usable, balanced defenses. Mawile had to get Huge Power to be useful coming from those shit stats. Remember that Sableye's durability is somewhat artificial thanks to priority WoW and Recover, so it's not guaranteed that the Mega forme will hold up to what the base form can.
Yes, you can delay Mega Evolving, but that assumes the Mega forme is worth using period. We have to wait for BST to make the final judgment but I'm not sure how well it can abuse Magic Bounce and its lovely utility movepool, or some contrived special attacking set that people keep spouting about with abysmal speed. It never needed attacking stats because Foul Play or Night Shade suffice for damage. There are plenty of other good Ghost or Dark types in the special attacking department (Gengar, Chandelure, Houndoom, etcetc), not sure what niche Sableye would fulfill that the others don't.
However, after all of that shittalking, this might find a home on stall teams. As Karxrida said, the other Magic Bounce users are lacking in sustain and status that Sableye nicely patches up. Stall teams might like the unique typing in conjunction with Magic Bounce, sustain, and WoW; it fits the archetype and offers something fresh and new to those teams. I don't play stall, so I can't really elaborate, but some stall player might want to weigh in on this. It's nice at least to have another defense-oriented Mega to run other than Venusaur.
Yes, you can delay Mega Evolving, but that assumes the Mega forme is worth using period. We have to wait for BST to make the final judgment but I'm not sure how well it can abuse Magic Bounce and its lovely utility movepool, or some contrived special attacking set that people keep spouting about with abysmal speed. It never needed attacking stats because Foul Play or Night Shade suffice for damage. There are plenty of other good Ghost or Dark types in the special attacking department (Gengar, Chandelure, Houndoom, etcetc), not sure what niche Sableye would fulfill that the others don't.
However, after all of that shittalking, this might find a home on stall teams. As Karxrida said, the other Magic Bounce users are lacking in sustain and status that Sableye nicely patches up. Stall teams might like the unique typing in conjunction with Magic Bounce, sustain, and WoW; it fits the archetype and offers something fresh and new to those teams. I don't play stall, so I can't really elaborate, but some stall player might want to weigh in on this. It's nice at least to have another defense-oriented Mega to run other than Venusaur.
Once all Fairy moves are out of the game, your opponent will have a tough time taking out Mega Sableye. Especially with access to Calm Mind and Recover. And Magic Bounce prevents Toxic and Roar from working too. And with perfect Ghost/Fairy coverage, once this thing gets a few Calm Minds up, GG man.
Anyone thinking Baton Pass teams might have a new weapon up their sleeve with this?
No because sableye does not learn baton pass?
Also I am very interested to see how mega sableye turns out. If magic bounce manages to push a 480 BST pokemon with the inability to hold an item into OU then I will be amused, but I guess it all depends on what those finals stats turn out to be. It still will have a fantastic typing/movepool, as well as the newfound ability to make use of nasty plot and calm mind as well as powerful mixed attacks due to having access to foul play perhaps in the style of yveltal. They're going to have to take a huge chunk out of that speed stat to give him enough stats to make him viable though imo.
edit: also kinda disappointed that they missed the chance to make him dark/fairy typing! look at that evil little mischievous grin... its just asking for it
Last edited:
I know it doesn't learn Baton Pass but it can be used to bounce back Roar / Whirlwind. It can even function as a bulky attacker which is harder to KO since it has Calm Mind and Iron Defense (passed from Scolipede). It even has Priority Taunt before evolving
What exactly is M-Sableye going to do after it mega evolves, though? I guess it can set up with Nasty Plot or Calm Mind and attempt to sweep, but with that terrible speed (which is getting lowered even further), redundant coverage, low stats, no special priority and no Life Orb it's very easily forced out by any decent wallbreaker or Fairy type.
It also has a major case of 4MSS: it wants Recover, either CM or NP, STAB, coverage (HP Fighting or Dazzling Gleam I guess?), Taunt and WoW but can only pick 4, which means you're either sacrificing its offensive or support abilities. It makes more sense to leave Taunt/WoW shenanigans to its base forme, since it always has Prankster and can hold Leftovers, meaning the best M-Sableye can do is running the aforementioned set-up sweeper, which is honestly not threatening at all considering the flaws I mentioned.
It also has a major case of 4MSS: it wants Recover, either CM or NP, STAB, coverage (HP Fighting or Dazzling Gleam I guess?), Taunt and WoW but can only pick 4, which means you're either sacrificing its offensive or support abilities. It makes more sense to leave Taunt/WoW shenanigans to its base forme, since it always has Prankster and can hold Leftovers, meaning the best M-Sableye can do is running the aforementioned set-up sweeper, which is honestly not threatening at all considering the flaws I mentioned.
I used to run sableye on one of my older stall teams, and I must say, this is what he needed. Stall is my favorite playstyle, and I kind of fell out of it with the recent trends of the meta.
On paper he sounds like the perfect stall mon. Hopefully he turns out like his counter part and is an absolute beast.
On paper he sounds like the perfect stall mon. Hopefully he turns out like his counter part and is an absolute beast.
Even if Mega-Sableye has a different ability, the first turn Pranster is going to work as far as I know when it mega-evoltes. I think Mega-Sableye might be the most interesting 'mon to use by far.
So Mega Sableye could be a nasty answer to both stall and hyper offense's setups. Chansey and Deoxys-S/D can't touch Mega Sableye. SR leads like Garchomp, Terrakion, and Landorus-T will not appreciate a Prankster burn upon or before Mega Evolution. Skarmory and Ferrothorn lose horribly. Of course it could always just not Mega Evolve until it's absolutely needed but still threaten those Pokemon out with the threat of going Mega.
I'd expect about a 60 point increase to Defense to match Dusknoir's Base 135 but with the primary addition to its design being a ruby shield and very little else, it could very well have more than that. But even with 135 Def, Mega Sableye has the bulk to take a few hits from most unboosted physical attackers. Here are how a few realistic spreads stand up to OU threats.
-135 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 107-126 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO
-145 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 3HKO
-155 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 103-123 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
Going from Prankster to Magic Bounce really seems like there's going to be a huge timing aspect to using this Pokemon. Keep Prankster as long as you need it and shift to Magic Bounce when you need it or need to tank a hit with increased Defenses. Prankster Recover on Mega Evolution is going to be a nifty tool as well. You're basically getting two Pokemon in one: a standard Sableye without Lefties (but takes reduced Knock Off damage) and a solid Magic Bounce user with actual Defenses and statuses to abuse. Neat.
One more thing. History lesson: Since some of you are talking about Calm Mind Sableye, the original Calm Mind Sableye set was a thing in Gen 5 because it used Prankster Calm Mind in tandem with Prankster Will-O-Wisp to BTFO of a lot of OU-mons (halve Attacker's damage and reduce Special Attackers to setup fodder) and most notably every Spinner in the tier. Throw recover and Taunt on there and you had a fairly solid wall that was only walled by Fire-types, Magic Bounce, and Water Veil. It was also a crit and Scald burn magnet.
The crit and Scald thing likely isn't going to be solved, but Mega Evolution does resolve the need for Taunt at the cost of losing WoW priority which sounds REALLY not worth it since one Sub against this super-slow Pokemon and Sableye's hurting against most physical attackers. Personally, I see better options for a mono-attacking Calm Mind user such as Suicune. Shadow Ball isn't too threatening until +2 and Dazzling Gleam is inferior to WoW in every situation bar Mega Houndoom or Mega Absol. Garchomp isn't going to give a damn about a +1 Dazzling Gleam from something with around 105 Sp.Atk at most that is likely running no Sp.Atk EVs so it can just SD at will.
+1 4 SpA (Base 105) Sableye Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 206-244 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (135 Base) Sableye: 298-351 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
WoW is very needed for Sableye to beat setup mons and even then, Lum Berry exists so Calm Mind might not be the best idea in general.
And for the record, Dazzling Gleam is a garbage move on 90% of the Pokemon that learn it, not just Sableye. Dazzling Gleam does garbage damage even if you have STAB and most Dark-types would be more hindered or rendered setup fodder by Will-O-Wisp if the Pokemon has the option. Hell, even Togekiss would rather have Aura Sphere or Flamethrower to clear Steel. Even things like NP Azelf would rather run Energy Ball for T-tar and Fire Blast for Bisharp or HP Fighting for higher damage on both. Bad move in general.
I'd expect about a 60 point increase to Defense to match Dusknoir's Base 135 but with the primary addition to its design being a ruby shield and very little else, it could very well have more than that. But even with 135 Def, Mega Sableye has the bulk to take a few hits from most unboosted physical attackers. Here are how a few realistic spreads stand up to OU threats.
-135 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 107-126 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO
-145 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 3HKO
-155 Def-
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 103-123 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
Going from Prankster to Magic Bounce really seems like there's going to be a huge timing aspect to using this Pokemon. Keep Prankster as long as you need it and shift to Magic Bounce when you need it or need to tank a hit with increased Defenses. Prankster Recover on Mega Evolution is going to be a nifty tool as well. You're basically getting two Pokemon in one: a standard Sableye without Lefties (but takes reduced Knock Off damage) and a solid Magic Bounce user with actual Defenses and statuses to abuse. Neat.
One more thing. History lesson: Since some of you are talking about Calm Mind Sableye, the original Calm Mind Sableye set was a thing in Gen 5 because it used Prankster Calm Mind in tandem with Prankster Will-O-Wisp to BTFO of a lot of OU-mons (halve Attacker's damage and reduce Special Attackers to setup fodder) and most notably every Spinner in the tier. Throw recover and Taunt on there and you had a fairly solid wall that was only walled by Fire-types, Magic Bounce, and Water Veil. It was also a crit and Scald burn magnet.
The crit and Scald thing likely isn't going to be solved, but Mega Evolution does resolve the need for Taunt at the cost of losing WoW priority which sounds REALLY not worth it since one Sub against this super-slow Pokemon and Sableye's hurting against most physical attackers. Personally, I see better options for a mono-attacking Calm Mind user such as Suicune. Shadow Ball isn't too threatening until +2 and Dazzling Gleam is inferior to WoW in every situation bar Mega Houndoom or Mega Absol. Garchomp isn't going to give a damn about a +1 Dazzling Gleam from something with around 105 Sp.Atk at most that is likely running no Sp.Atk EVs so it can just SD at will.
+1 4 SpA (Base 105) Sableye Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 206-244 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (135 Base) Sableye: 298-351 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
WoW is very needed for Sableye to beat setup mons and even then, Lum Berry exists so Calm Mind might not be the best idea in general.
And for the record, Dazzling Gleam is a garbage move on 90% of the Pokemon that learn it, not just Sableye. Dazzling Gleam does garbage damage even if you have STAB and most Dark-types would be more hindered or rendered setup fodder by Will-O-Wisp if the Pokemon has the option. Hell, even Togekiss would rather have Aura Sphere or Flamethrower to clear Steel. Even things like NP Azelf would rather run Energy Ball for T-tar and Fire Blast for Bisharp or HP Fighting for higher damage on both. Bad move in general.
Mind Games will play a big part with Sableye. Both formes play completely different from each other and are both equally viable. If you don't figure out which one is which, you just may end up losing.
This. Set up some defensive boosts like calm mind and/or iron defense. Baton pass out to sableye, use priority recover then mega evolve and u have a pokemon wich cant be touched by as well direct damage moves as status moves.
As on moveset options, would a moveset without direct damaging moves be viable? Because he cant be taunted because of magic bounce.
Maybe, for example, will o wisp recover calm mind toxic? (Only thing is that he cant do anything against heatran than.)
Last edited:
I might consider replacing Suicune with Mega Sableye, it all depends on that def boost. It has to have calm mind/nasty plot and recover to work as a efficient set up sweeper. Then I need at least one STAB move and either coverage/another STAB. Dark and Ghost mono attacks are too easy to wall by fairies (high sdef) or any normal type respectively. But this guy really wants Will-O-wisp otherwise very offensive physical attackers will overwhelm it. Def needs to be at least 125, ideally 135 for it to be a decent physical wall and even then all the EV's need to be on HP and Def (bold). It then might be able to live without Will-O-Wisp.
And I think its going to get 135 def and have a speed drop of at least 30, which GF have done before. After all its holding a crystal the same size as himself lol, so base 10 speed is not out of the question. I hope he gets a 50, 75, 135, 105, 105, 10 distribution. If he gets that he will be a serious threat.
And I think its going to get 135 def and have a speed drop of at least 30, which GF have done before. After all its holding a crystal the same size as himself lol, so base 10 speed is not out of the question. I hope he gets a 50, 75, 135, 105, 105, 10 distribution. If he gets that he will be a serious threat.
Last edited:
It's probably going to be a -10 drop, -20 at most. Going any further would mean giving Mega Sableye less than half of its natural speed, so the word "slightly" no longer applies.
Last edited:
I think the biggest thorn in Mega Sableye's side is its low 480 BST, tying with the likes of Slurpuff, Glalie and Loppuny. They patched this problem up in Mega Mawile with Huge Power, instead of going for a more flavorish ability like Strong Jaw. Granted, the +100 BST rule is something Game Freak came up with and may be willing to break if deemed necessary (it doesn't even apply to Mega Alakazam). But I don't think any spread of 480 will seem Mega worthy, unless they are willing to harshly lower both its Speed and Attack.
That doesn't mean all that much. So, because it doesn't say his spdef raises it doesn't?
A boosting set seems obvious, but I wonder...
Would Mean Look be viable? It'd be kinda like a bulkier, stallier Mega Gengar. Trap something that can't touch you and wear it down with Toxic/Night Shade/Recover.
The combination of Magic Bounce + Metal Burst is also interesting.
Would Mean Look be viable? It'd be kinda like a bulkier, stallier Mega Gengar. Trap something that can't touch you and wear it down with Toxic/Night Shade/Recover.
The combination of Magic Bounce + Metal Burst is also interesting.
ORAS's megas seem like to change the styles of the pokemon, Mega-Swampert looks like it will become a sweeper while thenormal one is a tank and Sableye now will change from a Prankstermon to a bulky special attacker.
I just hope they don't let it's special defense unchanged and raise it's attack stat to an uneeded level like Gardevoir.
I just hope they don't let it's special defense unchanged and raise it's attack stat to an uneeded level like Gardevoir.
Last edited:
One cool thing about this is even if his special defense doesn't get boosted that much, he still gets priority calm mind first turn meaning he will immediately have good special defense.
Mega sableye will probably be a ghost/dark clefable that can't be phazed or taunted, which means it will probably be pretty good.
Mega sableye will probably be a ghost/dark clefable that can't be phazed or taunted, which means it will probably be pretty good.
Extremely disappointing.
Instead of improving upon a fun, useful and unique niche, we get a sub-par sweeper with lolspeed, roflstats and omfg4mss. It's just going to be a CM thing that is easily broken by like any wallbreaker.
I can't even say that it will help fool opponents into thinking my sableye is actually a megasableye and then switch a powerful physical attacker in to get burned, because GF increased its defense like a douche, which only serves to encourage special attackers.
Sadly, us sableye fans didnt get lucky. I hope im wrong.
Instead of improving upon a fun, useful and unique niche, we get a sub-par sweeper with lolspeed, roflstats and omfg4mss. It's just going to be a CM thing that is easily broken by like any wallbreaker.
I can't even say that it will help fool opponents into thinking my sableye is actually a megasableye and then switch a powerful physical attacker in to get burned, because GF increased its defense like a douche, which only serves to encourage special attackers.
Sadly, us sableye fans didnt get lucky. I hope im wrong.
- Status