Exactly my point.
I dont think he's banworthy, however the 50/50 argument is certainly true.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
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I dont think he's banworthy, however the 50/50 argument is certainly true.
You sir, need to learn the definition of a "Counter". A counter is something that can directly switch in no matter the conditions and either wall the pokemon or OHKO it. The closest thing to a counter you said was heatran, which doesn't like switching into either Sacred sword or shadow ball and doesn't exactly OHKO back if it's a defensive set. Mamoswine is never taking a shadow ball, ever. And Zard-Y is not switching in with Rocks up.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Speedy LO hits 240 speed with a hasty nature, which allows it to outspeed adamant Bisharp. And SD+3 atks is good, not the shitty SD+KS. SD+3 atks can actually run different attacks in those 3 slots, with options being: Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, iron Head, Sacred Sword and Head Smash. Also, Mandibuzz doesn't often run speed, so max speed aegislash can outspend and push its shit in. He has so many moves he can run without sacrificing efficiency. Thats what makes him such a threat, akin to DPP salamence.
Subject 18 Edit: Be civil before I infract.
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,,,,,,,,,
the only good ghosts in OU atm are Gengar, Sableye, Aegislash, and Gourgeist-S. The rest are pretty much trash. There's a good reason they didn't receive an OU analysis, and a good reason why the aforementioned ghosts did. (Yes, even Gourgeist-S, I wrote it :3 )
Fire fang is a perfectly respectable move to deal with steel types because you can't run Focus Punch on an SD set, and moves like brick break don't deal with scizor. As far as aegislash goes, all you really have to do is spam sucker punch, since a failed sucker punch does not activate KS. So basically just spam sucker punch against a non-Subtoxic aegislash and you win :I Also, heatran pretty much loses to a +2 sucker punch after rocks, and if it has speed investment, it will burn you regardless of fire fang or no. Charizard-X as well can take an unboosted play rough with some defensive investment and easily outspeed and will-o, regardless of fire fang.
Since when was ice beam a must on special attackers. lati@s gets ice beam, there's a good reason why it doesn't use it. And look at keldeo or landorus, those are incredibly threatening special attackers withou ice beam...
Since when was ice beam even a big deal? Not to mention that megaman can just run flamethrower instead of overheat if you really hate the -2 sp. att drop (I know I do)
Hello? What do you even hit with dark pulse ninja that you don't with hp fire? Aegislash, mew, and slowbro, that's basically it. Meanwhile, Hp fire has MUCH more important targets, most notably ferrothorn, which is usually a counter to greninja! Scizor too falls to this move basically, and you can definitely get teammates to handle mew and slowbro (not that greninja should be your first response to them anyway.) Hp fire also hits aegislash, just a bit weaker and you can't take a shadow ball after :/
-gizmo-
Smogon's Kingpin
I don't believe you're well aware of how threatening all of those sets can be. You would have to use them to see what sets like speedy lo can do or even SD + 3 attacks(no kings shield) It doesn't seem like you knew what they did before you pushed them away.
Not knocking your opinion, but almost any Aegislash set can be threatening.
Woah. Can we keep the vitriol and the ad-hominems out of this thread? This is the last warning. If you can't discuss in a civil manner, don't bother posting at all.
OU currently revolves around Aegislash and the things which check it. Aegislash is so good that it has a "gravitational" effect where the things which check Aegislash are more viable than they otherwise would be, and the things which are checked by Aegislash are less viable than they otherwise would be. The effect where Aegislash pulls things which check it closer to its S rank on the viability rankings and pushes things which are checked by it away from its S rank viability rankings. Obviously, any top threat has this gravitational effect, but Aegislash easily has the strongest gravitational effect of any threat in OU as both the pro-ban and anti-ban sides have argued. The fact that Aegislash has this gravitational effect is not necessarily unhealthy in itself. Both sides argue that Aegislash is the force which holds OU in place as it currently is; the anti-ban side says this is a good thing, and the pro-ban side says this is a bad thing. The suspect ladder does not have Aegislash in it for this very reason.
The anti-ban side argues that Aegislash keeps powerful wall breakers in check, and that is absolutely true. If Aegislash is banned, the meta may become more offensive and less diverse. But as we know, sacrificing competitiveness for the sake of diversity is not a good thing. After all, rock-paper-scissors is a balanced game with diversity, but it is totally uncompetitive. Let's say Aegislash is rock. It checks certain Pokemon which we'll call the scissors category, and things which check Aegi are paper. As it is, the game is currently balanced and Aegislash does have its checks and counters. But Aegislash has multiple features which make OU less competitive and more like rock-paper-scissors which have been covered many times in this thread.
Now, let's say we ban rock (Aegislash). Scissors (the things it checks) becomes more viable and paper (the things which check Aegislash) become less viable. Now, people would be much more likely to choose scissors because rock is no longer around to check it. The game is clearly less diverse at this point because there are fewer viable choices, but it is more competitive since if both players choose scissors, the game is no longer decided by team match-up, but by the players skill in using their teams. If people are upset by the fact that the scissors group of Pokemon are superior to the paper group, then we can nerf the scissors group to the point where both paper and scissors can check each other, and then we have a game which is both competitive and diverse. But to do this, we need to ban rock (Aegislash) first and take the primary source of match-up reliance out of the game.
We should be seeking to create an ideal OU meta, and not be afraid of banning Aegislash because it might harm OU in the short term as far as diversity goes. Aegislash may be "holding OU together" and preventing us from needing a much longer banlist, but we would be sacrificing a lot of competitiveness in OU for the sake of keeping the banlist shorter. That is why even though the meta is balanced and diverse now, many people are complaining about it being stale.
For those of you who think we will just keep banning and banning, look at UU. There, anything which is potentially broken is banned, yet you don't see the entire tier banned. Other than the genies and a few megas, I don't see anything that would ever need to be banned in OU even if some of these more powerful threats are no longer around to check them. The mistake we made in Gen V was not banning enough. Gen V was very diverse and balanced, but was very uncompetitive due to all the weather based match-ups. We should have suspected rain and dealt with any domino effect which may have resulted. I don't want us to make the same mistake again this generation by being afraid to knock over the first domino.
The anti-ban side needs to stop using straw men to deflect away from Aegislash's influence on the meta. The beliefs that powerful megas will go on the loose if Aegi is not there to check them or that Aegislash may not be the most banworthy Pokemon right now has nothing to do with whether Aegislash is healthy for the meta or not. Aldaron, Jukain, and ginganinja have made strong posts arguing why Aegislash makes OU less competitive, and so far I have not seen many strong posts from the anti-ban side directly disputing that.
The anti-ban side argues that Aegislash keeps powerful wall breakers in check, and that is absolutely true. If Aegislash is banned, the meta may become more offensive and less diverse. But as we know, sacrificing competitiveness for the sake of diversity is not a good thing. After all, rock-paper-scissors is a balanced game with diversity, but it is totally uncompetitive. Let's say Aegislash is rock. It checks certain Pokemon which we'll call the scissors category, and things which check Aegi are paper. As it is, the game is currently balanced and Aegislash does have its checks and counters. But Aegislash has multiple features which make OU less competitive and more like rock-paper-scissors which have been covered many times in this thread.
Now, let's say we ban rock (Aegislash). Scissors (the things it checks) becomes more viable and paper (the things which check Aegislash) become less viable. Now, people would be much more likely to choose scissors because rock is no longer around to check it. The game is clearly less diverse at this point because there are fewer viable choices, but it is more competitive since if both players choose scissors, the game is no longer decided by team match-up, but by the players skill in using their teams. If people are upset by the fact that the scissors group of Pokemon are superior to the paper group, then we can nerf the scissors group to the point where both paper and scissors can check each other, and then we have a game which is both competitive and diverse. But to do this, we need to ban rock (Aegislash) first and take the primary source of match-up reliance out of the game.
We should be seeking to create an ideal OU meta, and not be afraid of banning Aegislash because it might harm OU in the short term as far as diversity goes. Aegislash may be "holding OU together" and preventing us from needing a much longer banlist, but we would be sacrificing a lot of competitiveness in OU for the sake of keeping the banlist shorter. That is why even though the meta is balanced and diverse now, many people are complaining about it being stale.
For those of you who think we will just keep banning and banning, look at UU. There, anything which is potentially broken is banned, yet you don't see the entire tier banned. Other than the genies and a few megas, I don't see anything that would ever need to be banned in OU even if some of these more powerful threats are no longer around to check them. The mistake we made in Gen V was not banning enough. Gen V was very diverse and balanced, but was very uncompetitive due to all the weather based match-ups. We should have suspected rain and dealt with any domino effect which may have resulted. I don't want us to make the same mistake again this generation by being afraid to knock over the first domino.
The anti-ban side needs to stop using straw men to deflect away from Aegislash's influence on the meta. The beliefs that powerful megas will go on the loose if Aegi is not there to check them or that Aegislash may not be the most banworthy Pokemon right now has nothing to do with whether Aegislash is healthy for the meta or not. Aldaron, Jukain, and ginganinja have made strong posts arguing why Aegislash makes OU less competitive, and so far I have not seen many strong posts from the anti-ban side directly disputing that.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Ok, last time I'll be saying this. AEGISLASH CAN RUN EV SPREADS, AND CHANGE MOVESLOTS TO FIT ITS TEAMS NEEDS.(sorry if this came out uncivil, i need to hammer the point in) Therefore, it is NOT deadweight for the team its on, and is NEVER deadweight for the team its on. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Aegislash has a team that it needs to support, so it needs to run a moveset to accommodate for that. And also, how do you know how effective these sets are? Have you played against them? Have you used them? If the answer to both of those questions is no, don't bother talking about them. Also, 240(which max speed aegi hits)is a GREAT speed tier for XY OU. Outspeeding Bisharp, most defensive mons, and Jolly Azumarill is a godsend in this tier. Besides, even uninvested, his bulk is great. If you don't know what you are talking about, please, for the love of Arceus, don't post.
Uh I've noticed a few things in your arguments and that is that you don't quite know the sets you're talking about completely. You seem to think that SD Aegis means SD KS, aka StanceDance. Stance Dance is an old, Outdated set that is commonly regarded as bad. Modern SD Aegis' are SD with three attacks and a life orb. Very different, far better set
Also Sub Toxic is fully invested in Satk with a modest nature. Its Shadow Balls are not weak at all.
Just trying to clear this up
I have seen and used half of these movesets (notability sub-toxic and SD sweeper which eventually got old)
Outspeeding bisharp is never happening.. the fact bisharp can run jolly to adapt to it or just plain LO/CB sucker punch it doesn't make it weak to slash. Yeah slash can predict the bisharp switch in and SS but then the speed isn't needed for the rest of the match. Why would azumaril be mentioned? IIRC azumaril is appost to be a pokemon walled by slash.. only if it doesn't get a belly drum off and aqua jet as SS won't kill even half health azumaril.. goes both ways actually, depends who's on the field first.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
If i may ask, what was the moveset used on said SD aegislash? At least most commonly used?
I hate to break it to you but most Bisharps run Adamant
This suspect test requires a lot more thought than any of the previous tests done in Gen 6. Aegislash is without a doubt at the top of OU with good reason. Every single team must be prepared and wary of Aegislash in order to be successful, which certainly promotes a ban argument on the basis of "overcentralization". But really, preparing for Aegi is a lot easier than preparing for the likes of Genesect, M-Kangaskan, M-Lucario, M-Gengar, the Deos and Baton Pass. We all know that these pokemon/BP were unhealthy for the meta because they required obscure counters or simply left too much of the game up to chance. Aegislash certainly doesn't boast the power of M-Lucario and M-Kangaskan, nor is it's ability fundamentally damaging to to the metagame (*cough* M-Gengar). Furthermore, Aegi is not overly simple to use, and requires a bit of know-how and prediction in order to get the upper-hand (unlike the Deos). Aegislash has decent checks and counters (it can be beaten by stall, HO and balanced teams) that are commonplace in the OU.
As mentioned, A-slash does require prediction to use and creates 50/50 scenarios as such (mainly due to King's Shield). It should be noted (as it has been in this thread) that while such 50/50 scenarios seem unfair, the reality is that they are player generated results in the case of KS, unlike Swag-Play mechanics. Furthermore, this pokemon needs prediction to play against due to some wicked new sets designed to rock it's counters (e.g. head smash life orb set to beat Mandibuzz; speedy sets to 1HKO Bisharp etc). Aegislash can be massively physical or special, which can result in the instant loss of the opponent's wall if played correctly. But honestly, every single offensive threat in the OU has the capacity to generate these scenarios. E.g. Flare Blitz Char-Y takes out Chansey. Furthermore, every single relevant offensive threat creates 50/50 scenarios. E.g. Choice Specs Keldeo is the opponent who switched in against your Chansey; 3 of your other pokemon cannot take a hydro pump but Chansey can't take a Secret Sword. What do you do? Go. These scenarios are inherent to the game of pokemon.
After careful consideration of these facts, I still don't see this enough to warrant a ban of Aegislash. As a player who has used many Aegi sets (although it is not a member of my main OU team), I have realised that the 50/50 scenarios created by A-slash aren't particularly unfair. A-slash usually causes most harm when players of the opposition attempt to get a swift 1HKO or overpredict in order to get a free set up (e.g. then number of times I've watched set up sweepers fall to Aegislash is incredible). Quite frankly, the lesson of Aegislash is to tread carefully. Many OU pokemon have equally dangerous consequences for over prediction.
For me, the main reason why I don't see Aegislash as banworthy is because my most successful OU team (currently ranked 1850 on PS, which I am happy with although I know there are plenty of better players out there) was built without specific consideration for Aegislash. Naturally, many OU pokemon are capable of at least checking Aegislash and gaining momentum from a switch-in. Consider SDef Amoongus. No, it will not beat a physically orientated Aegislash but will beat any Special variant. Nonetheless, Amoongus can take a physical hit (poorly) from a physically offensive Aegislash, crap it's pants and then run to a more appropriate counter. In fact, many pokemon can take A-slash's hits and many pokemon can KO (how common is earthquake? even Venusaur can run it... viably). Here's a list of pokemon that Aegi doesn't match up favourably against (ones I'd switch out from). Sure, poor prediction might have consequences for some of these, but the reality is that there are several options to get rid of Aegislash without being overrun. Unlike any of the previous suspects, Aegi's checks and counters are not specific to Aegislash.
Landorus (I and T)
Mandibuzz (I know head smash is dangerous, but kudos to anyone smart enough to run that set)
Gliscor
Amoongus (foul play 1HKO's if Aegi attacks, and spore puts it to sleep unless Aegi is sub-toxic)
Diggersby (Aegi needs to predict with sacred sword)
Heatran
M-Charizard (X and Y)
M-Scizor (can actually set up vs Aegi and KO with knock off)
Manaphy (can take a hit, set up, and KO)
Gengar
M-Venusaur (Aegi fears knock off, sleep powder, leech seed and earthquake)
Bisharp
M-Blastoise
Greninja
Excadrill
Garchomp
M-Manectric (someone posted earlier saying M-Manectric isn't relevant in the OU... my advice is to play a high ladder rain team and rethink this opinion)
Talonflame
Tyrannitar
Many of these pokemon are not only fun to use, but viable and effective in the OU metagame. None of these pokemon is used solely to counter Aegislash (i.e. they have MANY other potential roles), so what's the problem? People may want Starmie back in the OU (like me, I still use it), but the game has to evolve at some point. A-slash isn't unhealthy for the meta from my standpoint, but I do completely understand that it may well be banned. I won't be crushed in either case (I actually want to use Starmie lol) but I personally don't feel the need for Aegi to go. Nonetheless, kudos to a wise choice for a suspect test.
As mentioned, A-slash does require prediction to use and creates 50/50 scenarios as such (mainly due to King's Shield). It should be noted (as it has been in this thread) that while such 50/50 scenarios seem unfair, the reality is that they are player generated results in the case of KS, unlike Swag-Play mechanics. Furthermore, this pokemon needs prediction to play against due to some wicked new sets designed to rock it's counters (e.g. head smash life orb set to beat Mandibuzz; speedy sets to 1HKO Bisharp etc). Aegislash can be massively physical or special, which can result in the instant loss of the opponent's wall if played correctly. But honestly, every single offensive threat in the OU has the capacity to generate these scenarios. E.g. Flare Blitz Char-Y takes out Chansey. Furthermore, every single relevant offensive threat creates 50/50 scenarios. E.g. Choice Specs Keldeo is the opponent who switched in against your Chansey; 3 of your other pokemon cannot take a hydro pump but Chansey can't take a Secret Sword. What do you do? Go. These scenarios are inherent to the game of pokemon.
After careful consideration of these facts, I still don't see this enough to warrant a ban of Aegislash. As a player who has used many Aegi sets (although it is not a member of my main OU team), I have realised that the 50/50 scenarios created by A-slash aren't particularly unfair. A-slash usually causes most harm when players of the opposition attempt to get a swift 1HKO or overpredict in order to get a free set up (e.g. then number of times I've watched set up sweepers fall to Aegislash is incredible). Quite frankly, the lesson of Aegislash is to tread carefully. Many OU pokemon have equally dangerous consequences for over prediction.
For me, the main reason why I don't see Aegislash as banworthy is because my most successful OU team (currently ranked 1850 on PS, which I am happy with although I know there are plenty of better players out there) was built without specific consideration for Aegislash. Naturally, many OU pokemon are capable of at least checking Aegislash and gaining momentum from a switch-in. Consider SDef Amoongus. No, it will not beat a physically orientated Aegislash but will beat any Special variant. Nonetheless, Amoongus can take a physical hit (poorly) from a physically offensive Aegislash, crap it's pants and then run to a more appropriate counter. In fact, many pokemon can take A-slash's hits and many pokemon can KO (how common is earthquake? even Venusaur can run it... viably). Here's a list of pokemon that Aegi doesn't match up favourably against (ones I'd switch out from). Sure, poor prediction might have consequences for some of these, but the reality is that there are several options to get rid of Aegislash without being overrun. Unlike any of the previous suspects, Aegi's checks and counters are not specific to Aegislash.
Landorus (I and T)
Mandibuzz (I know head smash is dangerous, but kudos to anyone smart enough to run that set)
Gliscor
Amoongus (foul play 1HKO's if Aegi attacks, and spore puts it to sleep unless Aegi is sub-toxic)
Diggersby (Aegi needs to predict with sacred sword)
Heatran
M-Charizard (X and Y)
M-Scizor (can actually set up vs Aegi and KO with knock off)
Manaphy (can take a hit, set up, and KO)
Gengar
M-Venusaur (Aegi fears knock off, sleep powder, leech seed and earthquake)
Bisharp
M-Blastoise
Greninja
Excadrill
Garchomp
M-Manectric (someone posted earlier saying M-Manectric isn't relevant in the OU... my advice is to play a high ladder rain team and rethink this opinion)
Talonflame
Tyrannitar
Many of these pokemon are not only fun to use, but viable and effective in the OU metagame. None of these pokemon is used solely to counter Aegislash (i.e. they have MANY other potential roles), so what's the problem? People may want Starmie back in the OU (like me, I still use it), but the game has to evolve at some point. A-slash isn't unhealthy for the meta from my standpoint, but I do completely understand that it may well be banned. I won't be crushed in either case (I actually want to use Starmie lol) but I personally don't feel the need for Aegi to go. Nonetheless, kudos to a wise choice for a suspect test.
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Back then that was the SD KS set.. Klefkiholder I will admit is the first person who actually said something convincing.RoyalDispenser said:
I still see how SD+3 attacks works but with max speed it ain't like it's going to be outspeeding killing greninjas or talonflames (who OHKO with brave bird on blade forme..)
SS is still really weak.
+6 252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 201-237 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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You seem to be missing the fact that Dark resists Shadow Sneak.
Let's assume the Greninja uses HP Fire before Aegislash can attack.
+6 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 524-617 (183.2 - 215.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and how exactly is aegislash going to get +6 on greninja 1v1?
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 133-156 (46.5 - 54.5%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 263-309 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 394-464 (137.7 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thing is if greninja is carrying dark pulse (Like most do) it's going to use it.. if greninja is fire type, he can still dark pulse before taking a second hit.. (or hidden power fire again! aegislash has no king's shield so wynaut.) Aegislash can take 1 hit with dark pulse while in shield forme and pull off a single SD.. or it can sacred sword and kill greninja.. at the risk of being revenge killed as it can't KS. Not to mention flinch chance which really is irrelevant.
EDIT: whoops forgot to remove leftovers.. doesn't matter anyway same calcs.
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Actually, no one said it was going to set up on Greninja. Rajikaru was pointing out that you used a Dark Type to make a +6 Shadow Sneak seem weak, which is pretty misleading. Besides, 1v1 Aegislash doesn't need to get to +6. It just has to drop it down to about 25% health minimum, and that's assuming Greninja is still Dark from using Dark Pulse and no attack boosts..
I don't believe they were trying to make +6 shadow sneak seem weak, they were merely pointing out that +6 Aegislash does not necessarily = gg (although how many players are letting Aegislash dance that much haha?).
And most Aegislash don't run Jolly (not saying Jolly is not viable, it's just usage statistics).
It doesn't matter much because Greninja is a check to Aegislash at best. It can only come in on a KS or after Aegislash KOs.
As Haunter is quick to remind people, variety doesn't really matter. But it shows how centralizing Aegislash is. Any ghost gets massacred in OU because teems have to whatever they can to stop Aegislash (not to mention Aegislash itself). And being centralizing is a pretty good indicator that something is broken.
Aegislash is well on its way to being the only Ghost in OU. Unless Gengar somehow ends up on every team, literally anything would be an improvement over this.
As Haunter is quick to remind people, variety doesn't really matter. But it shows how centralizing Aegislash is. Any ghost gets massacred in OU because teems have to whatever they can to stop Aegislash (not to mention Aegislash itself). And being centralizing is a pretty good indicator that something is broken.
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Speedy aegislash run hasty generally, you resist priority attacks and have your own priority anyway and you will often switch aegislash into draco meteors and stuff so I prefer hasty over naive.
True true. My bad. Nonetheless, Hasty/Naive is less popular than Quiet and Adamant natures :)
The difference is that Bush actually needs Adamant to perform against a variety of things including 244 HP 12 Def (what bulky variants run to avoid the ohko from invested Lando T iirc) Aegis' whereas Aegis doesn't.
Note: I do not mean aegis doesn't need a certain nature against other Aegis', what I mean is that it doesn't need the nature boost for that many things, which is not the case with bish. The life orb with hastegis compensates for the nature difference power-wise anyways
Note: I do not mean aegis doesn't need a certain nature against other Aegis', what I mean is that it doesn't need the nature boost for that many things, which is not the case with bish. The life orb with hastegis compensates for the nature difference power-wise anyways
1. Saying Mega-Banette is good while saying Mega-Manectric isn't? That's completely incorrect.
2. Sure, Focus Punch has some sort of use (As I learned from the guy on the ladder who pro-played me with his Focus Punch Mawile), but Fire Fang does too, just some different choices of Pokemon. Fire Fang is far from deadweight on a Mawile.
3. Dark Pulse has less utility on Greninja with all Deoxys forms being gone from OU, but isn't a lost cause. However, HP Fire does give some nice coverage on its moveset for some Pokemon that would otherwise give it trouble (Again, Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc.)
To stay on topic:
The four types that Aegislash is weak to are not only used so much because of Aegislash. It's because they are all-around good attacking-types, two of which are super-effective to the best defensive type in the game, which Aegislash of course happens to have for a sub-type.
Ground is a nice offensive type with a handful of great Pokemon that have it as part STAB in OU, not to mention it has a base 100 power move with no drawback that hits 5/18 types for super-effective damage.
Fire hits 4/18 types for super-effective damage and also has some pretty good STAB users and others who would appreciate its coverage.
Dark and Ghost each received great buffs this gen; Not being resisted by steel. Ghost is good offensively with being resisted/immune by 2 types. Dark got a great buff in Knock Off being godly, allowing for a lot of Pokemon to use it viably for coverage.
This isn't the only generation where Ground and Fire in particular have been common offensive types. They may not have as much use for offense as Fighting arguably has, but still do match up very well against a lot of Pokemon, and again, being super-effective to the best defensive type in the game is just even more of what utility they have for offense.
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I think the main issue is neither side has valid points.
Pro-Ban's arguments are so laughably bad it's funny, Aegislash is a Pokemon that actually encourages intelligent team building and smarter playing. This meta has been revolving around it for almost a year and now, we have an issue because people are sick of wanting to play well. The whole 50/50 King's Shield argument is completely null and void. There is absolutely no uncompetitiveness about it. It's a variation of Protect that is predictable and can be played around. Sure, it has a great typing, good bulk (until you fire Shadow Balls) and good firepower, but the meta has adapted to this. This entire metagame is FULL of overcentralizing things and to center it on Aegislash is horrible imo. I obviously support no-ban but of course I'm wrong because I'm "picking straws" when the general test is full of it and when it comes down to it, people just don't want it here anymore. I'll just never understand how some of the best players here who are supposed to be masters of prediction fall flat against it. Mind boggling. Anti-Ban's arguments pretty much center down to how it should not have been suspected in the first place when the whole tier is overcentralizing and shockingly, we build checks to Aegislash without even realizing it half the time. I will leave it at that.
Pro-Ban's arguments are so laughably bad it's funny, Aegislash is a Pokemon that actually encourages intelligent team building and smarter playing. This meta has been revolving around it for almost a year and now, we have an issue because people are sick of wanting to play well. The whole 50/50 King's Shield argument is completely null and void. There is absolutely no uncompetitiveness about it. It's a variation of Protect that is predictable and can be played around. Sure, it has a great typing, good bulk (until you fire Shadow Balls) and good firepower, but the meta has adapted to this. This entire metagame is FULL of overcentralizing things and to center it on Aegislash is horrible imo. I obviously support no-ban but of course I'm wrong because I'm "picking straws" when the general test is full of it and when it comes down to it, people just don't want it here anymore. I'll just never understand how some of the best players here who are supposed to be masters of prediction fall flat against it. Mind boggling. Anti-Ban's arguments pretty much center down to how it should not have been suspected in the first place when the whole tier is overcentralizing and shockingly, we build checks to Aegislash without even realizing it half the time. I will leave it at that.
- Status