np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Max Carvalho]

Lol, you didn't say Aegislash presence in the metagame is positive, you said Offense would get better with an Aegislash banning and that Aegislash helps Balanced and Stall teams take care of that threats. So what? This doesn't mean anything, if Aegislash is broken the metagame should adapt to it.

Now to a relevant point does Aegislash have any reliable counters at all? Mandibuzz loses to Toxic, same goes for Hippo. You may say they can get through this with team support but reliable counters don't need team support. Krokodile is interesting, but lose to anything with Flash Cannoon. Umbreon is interisting but if it switches in a Swords Dance, bye. Heatran is good but doesn't like Sacred Sword which can be a 2HKO. I could talk about much more "counters" that Aegislash deal with X or Y set so its not reliable (sorry for my poor grammar, I am tape this on mobile.). Think about it; what mon is Aegislash best counter and does Aegislash have any set that can beat this counter?

 

[alexwolf]

A lot of your posts and many of the anti-ban posts on the VR thread have argued that Aegislash should not be banned because it checks offensive threats which is good for the meta, then when you all have been called out for using bad reasoning for justifying a no ban position, you say it matters if Aegislash is not broken. So why not just argue the italicized point in the first place instead of bringing up all of these powerful megas? It is really this simple: If Aegislash is broken; ban it. If Aegislash is not broken, don't ban it. The wall-breaking megas do not have any influence on whether Aegislash is broken or not. So far, you have devoted most of your posts as to why Aegislash is healthy for the meta, but almost nothing as to why it is not broken. Meanwhile, Jukain and Aldaron have made very strong posts as to why Aegislash is broken. I think most of the anti-ban side brings up the wall-breaking megas because they do not have strong responses to Jukain and Aldaron. As for the Lugia example, I think it describes Aegislash perfectly. Aegislash is an overpowered threat which makes the meta more defensive, just like Lugia.

I have made a detailed post explaining why Aegislash isn't broken (individually broken, not regarding the way it affects the metagame), you just didn't read it. Also, there are multiple reasons that we ban stuff, as i outlined in this post, and a negative presence is one of them, which means that a positive presence is a reason to keep a suspect in the metagame, as long as this something is not broken for other reasons. If you still can't get what i am saying, then i don't know what else to say, i explained it as best as i could.

 

[Red Cat]

I have made a detailed post explaining why Aegislash isn't broken, you just didn't read it. Also, there are multiple reasons that we ban stuff, as i outlined in this post, and a negative presence is one of them, which means that a positive presence is a reason to keep a suspect in the metagame, as long as this something is not broken for other reasons. If you still can't get what i am saying, then i don't know what else to say, i explained it as best as i could.

You explained three reasons why something could be broken. The pro-ban side only has to prove one of those three reasons to justify a ban. You can prove that Aegislash is a perfectly healthy presence in OU, and it can still be broken because it is overpowered or uncompetitive. Aldaron has argued why Aegislash is overpowered, and Jukain has argued why Aegislash is uncompetitive. You have argued why Aegislash is healthy, and I actually agree with you on a lot of those points. This is just my opinion, but the pro-ban side is winning on 2 out of 3 reasons why Aegislash could be broken right now. Two out of three is good enough because 2 out of 3 was enough to get Swagger banned (no one argued successfully that Swagger was overpowered). One out of three is also good enough as being overpowered was enough of a reason itself to get rid of Mega Kanga and Mega Lucario.

Edit: Okay, this back-and-forth has gone on long enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I am happy that I got alexwolf to finally back off the Mega Medi, Mega Hera, and Mega Garde argument as a reason to avoid getting rid of Aegi.

 

[alexwolf]

You explained three reasons why something could be broken. The pro-ban side only has to prove one of those three reasons to justify a ban. You can prove that Aegislash is a perfectly healthy presence in OU, and it can still be broken because it is overpowered or uncompetitive. Aldaron has argued why Aegislash is overpowered, and Jukain has argued why Aegislash is uncompetitive. You have argued why Aegislash is healthy, and I actually agree with you on a lot of those points. This is just my opinion, but the pro-ban side is winning on 2 out of 3 reasons why Aegislash could be broken right now. Two out of three is good enough because 2 out of 3 was enough to get Swagger banned (no one argued successfully that Swagger was overpowered). One out of three is also good enough as being overpowered was enough of a reason itself to get rid of Mega Kanga and Mega Lucario.

The pro-ban side winning on 2 out of 3 reasons is your take on the situation. I remain unconvinced from anything that has been posted that Aegislash is individually broken (overpowered) and i have already made my case, and the ''too many 50-50s'' argument is no where near good enough to warrant a ban on itself. Not to mention that there are ways for offensive teams to avoid those 50-50s, or at least minimize them to the point where the game is not decided by luck, as there are many viable offensive checks to Aegislash that don't care about King's Shield, and there are many defensive checks to Aegislash that can fit on offensive teams and don't care about King's Shield either. Balanced and stall teams don't have those 50-50 situations nearly enough for someone to make a case for ''uncompetitiveness''.

 

[Jukain]

alexwolf i actually don't feel the meta is too offensive. stall is really good atm, just look at wcop replays and you can see that well-played stall almost always wins unless it's basically blatantly counterteamed, and even wins certain games on matchup alone because balanced and offensive teams are so concered about improving their matchup against the ~more common~ offense, that their only way to win these matchups is to make multiple plays to gain small advantages to put themselves in a position where they might have a chance to win.

i know you're not just talking about stall, you're talking about balanced and w/e as well. at a high level of play, balanced teams are very common too! i think we can afford for defensive teams to supposedly be taken down a peg given how strong defensive archetypes are in the current metagame.

 

[Sun King]

alexwolf i actually don't feel the meta is too offensive. stall is really good atm, just look at wcop replays and you can see that well-played stall almost always wins unless it's basically blatantly counterteamed, and even wins certain games on matchup alone because balanced and offensive teams are so concered about improving their matchup against the ~more common~ offense, that their only way to win these matchups is to make multiple plays to gain small advantages to put themselves in a position where they might have a chance to win.

i know you're not just talking about stall, you're talking about balanced and w/e as well. at a high level of play, balanced teams are very common too! i think we can afford for defensive teams to supposedly be taken down a peg given how strong defensive archetypes are in the current metagame.

I know that was directed at alexwolf, so pardon me for interrupting. I would agree with you--the meta isn't TOO offensive. It is offensive, however, and banning Aegislash is going to REALLY tip the scale in favor of an offensive metagame. Stall is going to have to run some relatively niche stuff just to handle the monster that is Medicham (All of whom REALLY don't like Bisharp aside from maybe Sableye…maybe). Despite being a little stale, this meta is actually pretty balanced in my opinion.

As for the viability of stall--Stall will always be "good" at high levels of play, as it's designed to counter the best teams in the meta. Even if we ban Aegislash, there will still be a good stall team tearing it up at high levels of play--the problem being stall players are going to be forced to run the same specific set of counters with a common weakness. Banning Aegislash will probably do to defensive teams what Aegislash is doing to offensive teams right now (albeit more severely). Personally, I'd rather play in a metagame where each play style has a more even chance.

 

[Starfall11]

The pro-ban side winning on 2 out of 3 reasons is your take on the situation. I remain unconvinced from anything that has been posted that Aegislash is individually broken (overpowered) and i have already made my case, and the ''too many 50-50s'' argument is no where near good enough to warrant a ban on itself. Not to mention that there are ways for offensive teams to avoid those 50-50s, or at least minimize them to the point where the game is not decided by luck, as there are many viable offensive checks to Aegislash that don't care about King's Shield, and there are many defensive checks to Aegislash that can fit on offensive teams and don't care about King's Shield either. Balanced and stall teams don't have those 50-50 situations nearly enough for someone to make a case for ''uncompetitiveness''.

I agree completely with Alexwolf here. I remain unconvinced of the arguments that Jukain and Aldarin have made.

Specifically, I don't understand how KS is uncompetitive or can even be compared to Swagger. Aegislash should not be checked by a pokemon who struggles with KS. Special Attackers, earthquake, defiant Bisharp, status users, and pokemon able to set up can easily exploit King's Shield. Not to mention substitute can really screw Aegislash up if it decides to KS.

Now let's look into some factors that might make KS prediction based and not luck based. First and foremost, a player needs to dedide the risk of Aegislash changing to defense form. If Aegislash is in defense mode, will the move still KO? Is the attack affected by the attack drop or not? These are obvious considerations. But let's think about it a bit more.

Player A has DD Gyarados against Aegislash. Aegislash is in attack mode and has just KOed Player A's pokemon. Should Player A Dragon Dance or go for waterfall, which will KO if Player B decides to use Shadow Ball. What does Player A have to lose in this situation? How much HP does Gyarados have left? Will it be KOed by shadow ball? If Dragon Dance is pulled off, can Player A clean up the rest of the team with Waterfall/Bounce/etc. All of these factors need to be taken into consideration when deciding to attack or not, and when deciding to KS or not.

It would even be wise to note the playstyle of each player, is Player B an aggressive player who takes risks? Or do they play more conservatively? What's the risk to each pokemon and to the rest of the team.

There are so many factors to consider when using KS that it's anything but a 50/50. It can be exploited like any other prediction based move (Sucker Punch, Protect, etc). People complaining about KS being a 50/50 need to sit down and think about their opponent's playstyle and the relative risk/reward involved when making a decision to attack Aegislash. One of the cornerstones of high level pokemon play is prediction. Prediction and team construction are two of the only elements that make pokemon competitive.
I am voting that KS is not a 50/50, thus not uncompetitive. I am not talking about Aegislash's overall "brokenness", though I do not believe it's broken. Just trying to clear up the issues with King's Shield. Thank you,

 

[SoulRed12]

If Aegislash is ban-worthy, I definitely don't think it is because of "50/50"s.

When I hear "50/50", I think of end-game scenarios where it's something like full HP Bisharp vs. a weakened Talonflame. Bisharp clicks sucker punch, TF loses if it clicked Flare Blitz; Bisharp clicks Knock Off, TF loses if it clicked Brave Bird. There is no way to predict what will happen, because there are literally no factors to use, because nothing is going to happen after that turn. Alternatively, 50/50 could describe the swagger situation, where it was literally 50/50 and there was not even any decision given to the player.

This is in contrast to the decision that Aegislash supposedly creates mid-game concerning whether Aegis will attack or KS. In mid-game, you have more of an ability to predict if someone will play aggressively or conservatively, at least as much as in any other situation, based on what has happened, your opponent's predicted win condition, your opponent's overall strategy (e.g. stall, balanced, offense), assumed skill level, etc. Can your opponent afford to risk Aegislash this early in the game? Does s/he need to make a desperate/overly aggressive play to get back in the game? Can you risk your pokemon? Do you think they'll predict you to risk your pokemon? These are all questions you can't ask in the Bisharp vs. TF scenario I presented above, and if a player rushes and doesn't bother to consider those factors, it's their own fault when things don't go their way.

What's more, we're not talking about a situation where if you attack when the opponent uses KS (or you boost/switch while the attack), then Aegis will sweep your team. We're talking about a situation where if you attack and they block, nothing happens (except he regains his incredible defenses). If you boost and he attacks, that's problematic; but not the end of the world. In addition, that's the only option that's really all that problematic for Aegislash's opponent. The other options are they attack and you attack (you win, assuming you're not so weak that SS will KO) or they block and you boost (you win). That's not 50/50, that's 50/25 in your favor, with the last 25 being a neutral outcome. (except that you can modify those percentages in your mind based on the factors mentioned in the previous paragraph)

Now, you might be thinking, "but KS lowers attack and that makes the neutral 25 actually negative." Yes, if you're dumb enough to risk attacking it with a contact move. Why do that when we've got so many very viable things in the OU meta right now with insanely powerful ground moves (Hippowdon, Excadrill, Landorus and Landoge, Garchomp, Mamoswine) and one with an insanely powerful non-contact Fire move (YZard, who only takes about 50% from Quiet 252 SAtk Shadow Ball, can OHKO Aegis through Shield Forme, and/or can roost off the damage if it so desires).

So then even putting aside all the other factors you can use to predict, Aegislash only forces 50/50s if you're not targeting it with the right pokemon/moves. At the very most, the situation is no more of a gamble/no more uncompetitive than any other type of mid-game prediction.

On a related but different note, please, for the love of all that is good, don't vote to just ban King's Shield. If you're going to do that, just vote to ban Aegislash as a whole. As someone in a BP discussion thread said (I'm paraphrasing here), don't just cut off its limbs, if you want something gone, friggin' put it out of its misery (as finally happened with the new "one BPer only" rule).

 

[TheEnder]

After having gotten to reqs I have yet to decide on which way I'm leaning;

Opinion on Aegislash as a Pokemon

Ok, by now you all know what Aegislash does. You know all about how it constantly forces 50/50s by running King's Shield, and how it has no true counters as Aegislash's moveset can adapt to overcome whatever it decides on beating. We have also discussed it's "pseudo" 720 total base stat. These arguments alone doesn't make Aegislash broken in my head, but all added together, Aegislash becomes very difficult to deal with. If I were to lean towards the banning of Aegislash, it would have to be because of the same reason most of us thought the Charizards were borderline broken some months ago; the unpredictability and how overcentralizing it has become.

When facing Aegislash, predicting the wrong set will most likely end up costing you at least one Pokemon. Let's imagine the following scenario: You have an Adamant Bisharp in against Aegislash, both at full health, and Aegislash in Shield Forme. You have not seen Aegislash's item, and by the balanced nature of the opponets team, predicting Aegi's set from team structure is very hard. The most reasonable play for you to make would be to Knock Off, as this let's you beat most Aegislashes. If you decide to Knock Off though, you risk Aegi running max Speed, thus outspeeding you and OHKO'ing you. If you therefore decide to Sucker Punch, killing the potential max Speed Aegislash, you risk it being max HP, and thus taking the hit and killing you in return.

The fact that predicting the wrong sets can turn out to be fatal, added together with the load of other positives Aegislash has, like the ability to come in on half the metagame, makes it no wonder this Poke has become so overcentralizing. Just the concept that offensive pokemon like Terrakion, M-Pinsir has to run suboptimal coverage in form of EQ, for the sole reason of hitting Aegislash, shows how much of an impact Aegislash has had on the metagame. M-Gardevoir, if ran on offensive teams, is forced to run a teammate dedicated to trap and kill Aegi, in order to function to it's full potential.

Opinion on the balance of the metagame

The crazy thing about Aegislash is that it keeps other powerful Pokes from running rampant in the meta. Threats like Gardevoir and Medicham are far less used than what their potential, simply becuase they are walled by Aegislash. This argument has been brought up a lot, that teambuilding will be more open if we decide to ban Aegi. alexwolf brought up that the metagame would become even more offensievly baised after the eventual. I agree with him, and do we really want this? I personally don't know ;_;

On the other side of it, lesser used Pokes (mostly pokes weak to Ghost) like Cresselia, Mew and even Celebi become much more viable on stall teams. With Aegislash's presence, these Pokes are basically free switchins, but with Aegi gone, they can serve as great counters to Landorus (Cresselia, Celebi), Thundurus, Keldeo (Celebi), Pokes who give stall much trouble in general.

All in all, I don't really know if I want to ban Aegislash or not. Yes, it is very good, I would say borderline broken, and it's overcentralizing like no other Poke, but I still don't know if I like the metagame without Aegislash in it, with offense running rampant...

Reqs (if anyone cares lol)

 

[LightenUp]

I'd like to point out the fact, if it hasn't been said, that Aegislash behaves the same way Mega Lucario does, in a less potent and broken manner. It's mostly this versatility that earned him a ban, being able to hit with nuclear power on either the physical or special front without warning; thus being hard to really counter when making a team. (Just being objective) However, Aegislash is nothing close to being this overpowered. I actually think Aegislash is a healthy presence in the current metagame. Sure, it keeps a lot of things in check. But if he was banned, wouldn't Fairies be blasting through OU's doors and keep the rest of the metagame in check ? Dragons, Ice types, Bug, and probably other things would probably see even less use; we might even ban other things for the good of the metagame.

I really don't think banning our way through is the solution. This contradicts the main reason why people want Aegislash banned : enabling more pokemon that see little use in the present metagame.
Speaking about bans, I'll also say that because a pokemon is overall powerful and well-suited to the tiers DOESN'T necessarily mean that it's broken. We have seen pokemons coming from Ubers with outstanding battling abilities for reasons that had nothing to do with said battling abilities. E.g : Victini, who even if he might see some struggle when battling against OU monsters, will fuck one of your pokemon sideways given the proper opportunity; especially if you don't have something like max Def Slowbro or Quagsire to tank the V-Create at will. I find this a lot more uneven and questionable than Aegislash's presence, to be honest.

But most of all, King's Shield should NOT be banned. No one wants to see some punny shamefaced Aegislash wandering in NU like a declawed cat who used to be a glory hunter. Ban the pokemon or don't at all.

 

[Starfall11]

After having gotten to reqs I have yet to decide on which way I'm leaning;

On the other side of it, lesser used Pokes (mostly pokes weak to Ghost) like Cresselia, Mew and even Celebi become much more viable on stall teams. With Aegislash's presence, these Pokes are basically free switchins, but with Aegi gone, they can serve as great counters to Landorus (Cresselia, Celebi), Thundurus, Keldeo (Celebi), Pokes who give stall much trouble in general.

Hmm, you make some interesting points "TheEnder". I personally feel that the lesser used Pokemon you mentioned like Celebi, Cresselia, and Mew won't see more use, even with Aegislash gone. Unfortunately, because Knock Off has become one of the most powerful moves in the meta right now it's dark's time to shine and psychics time to bow out (As if pursuit wasn't enough.)

I agree with a majority of your other points though. And having Aegislash gone would still make it easier for those pokemon to earn a team slot on defensive teams. In the first example you mentioned, it would be safest to Sucker Punch. Reason being that at worst, you lose your Bisharp. The Aegislash is left with barely any HP and most likely sacked by a good player since it won't be a useful Pivot after taking such a blow. This is why Aegislash may deserve to stay in the metagame. At worst, I feel he's a 1 for 1. And can't take out much more than one pokemon unless the player against it decides to take some big risks. That's just my opinion though. What do you think TheEnder?

 

[TheEnder]

Hmm, you make some interesting point "TheEnder". I personally feel that the lesser used Poemon you mentioned like Celebi, Cresselia, and Mew won't see more use, even wth Aegislash gone. Unfortunately, because Knock Off has become one of the most powerful moves in the meta right now. It's dark's time to shine and psychics time to bow out.

I agree with a majority of your other points though. And having Aegislash gone would still make it easier for those pokemon to earn a team slot on defensive teams. In the first example you mentioned, it would be safest to Sucker Punch. Reason being that at worst, you lose your Bisharp. The Aegislash is left with barely any HP and most likely sacked by a good player since it won't be a useful Pivot after taking such a blow. This is why Aegislash may deserve to stay in the metagame. At worst, I feel he's a 1 for 1. And can't take out much more than one pokemon unless the player against it decides to take some big risks. That's just my opinion though. What do you think TheEnder?

It would be the safer option yes, but if you need Aegislash gone, it's simply risk vs. reward wether you decide go for Knock Off or not :)

Also, most stall teams have options against Knock Off, and most users (ie. Bisharp) hates being paralysed or burned, unlike Aegislash.

 

[Starfall11]

It would be the safer option yes, but if you need Aegislash gone, it's simply risk vs. reward wether you decide go for Knock Off or not :)

Exactly! This is why I don't believe King's Shield is a true 50/50. Although not relevant in the example you mentioned, since Defiant Bisharp plays around KS. Risk vs Reward is important when deciding how to tackle an Aegislash. Hence why I think it's presence is healthy in this Metagame. I don't feel it's particularly broken, and it brings a healthy element of prediction into battle. One of the most interesting OU pokemon we have seen in a long time.

 

[LightenUp]

When facing Aegislash, predicting the wrong set will most likely end up costing you at least one Pokemon. Let's imagine the following scenario: You have an Adamant Bisharp in against Aegislash, both at full health, and Aegislash in Shield Forme. You have not seen Aegislash's item, and by the balanced nature of the opponets team, predicting Aegi's set from team structure is very hard. The most reasonable play for you to make would be to Knock Off, as this let's you beat most Aegislashes. If you decide to Knock Off though, you risk Aegi running max Speed, thus outspeeding you and OHKO'ing you. If you therefore decide to Sucker Punch, killing the potential max Speed Aegislash, you risk it being max HP, and thus taking the hit and killing you in return.

But that's the whole game you're describing right there. In a typical fight, you'll encounter this kind of dilemmas a lot even if your oppenent doesn't have Aegislash. Simply battling will get you through a lot of mind games. Aegislash does bring more of them than the typical mon, granted, but the main reason we're discussing him and not hypothetically puzzling mons and situations is because he is centralizing the metagame.
Additionnally, Aegislash rarely runs full speed + another offensive stat and that'd be an awful aegislash. You should just keep a counter to him under your belt in every battle just like you should be able to counter Tyranitar lead (Who also runs a plethora of sets; Stealth Rocks ? Special with Ice Beam ? Mega ? Weakness Policy ?). Unless you're a 12 year old passerby on console who doesn't want to switch his pokemons for obscure reasons, but then why bother playing competitively ?

 

[MegaMogwai]

I gotta i'm loving the meta without Aegislash. You all make some good points, but there's an undeniable fact for me, the OU tier is much more diverse and interesting with Aegislash gone. I have been laddering in the suspect ladder and i'm having a lot of fun doing so.

It overcentralizes the meta way too much, it hinders the viability of so many pokemon, and its slightly overpowered. It is the best pokemon in OU, hands down.

Personally, I don't want to "return" to a meta with that stupid sword in it, being on nearly every team.

I could go into much more detail with my argument, but individuals like Subject 18 already have.

Once I reach the 2700 COIL I will vote to ban Aegislash.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Guys, the suspect ladder is only more diverse because the suspect ladder is too young to have centralised around a new top threat. If Aegislash is banned, a new top threat will emerge and mons will have increased/decreases viability depending on how well they can deal with that threat. Then complaints will arise about how over centralising that mon is, and the argument repeats forever. Centralisation to top threats is part of competitive Pokemon, and I think it's wonderful the current top threat can be managed with relative ease.

All my points for saving Aegislash have already been made so I will reach 2700 and use my vote to try and save Aegislash.

 

[Toljik]

Guys, the suspect ladder is only more diverse because the suspect ladder is too young to have centralised around a new top threat. If Aegislash is banned, a new top threat will emerge and mons will have increased/decreases viability depending on how well they can deal with that threat. Then complaints will arise about how over centralising that mon is, and the argument repeats forever. Centralisation to top threats is part of competitive Pokemon, and I think it's wonderful the current top threat can be managed with relative ease.

All my points for saving Aegislash have already been made so I will reach 2700 and use my vote to try and save Aegislash.

And whatever that threat is, it'll be even easier to deal with than Aegislash, because it's the latter that got suspected instead of the former. Even if it does turn out to be more centralizing, we can just ban it too.

You guys are acting like Smogon has a 5 Suspect Tests Per Metagame Clause.

 

[Steve Angello]

No offense but can you guys stop using irrelevant arguments and ladder? Most people give a damn what people say here so just ladder and vote that is the only thing which helps and not complaining. While I got the reqs I ve battled the same 15 people over and over again. That was pretty annoying. Tbh ladder is cancer as always so it doesn t matter if Aegi is banned or not. Personlly I m gonna vote for a ban. The meta changed a bit imo. Tbh Aegi doesn t need a ban, its kinda comparable with Terra back in BW2.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Guys, the suspect ladder is only more diverse because the suspect ladder is too young to have centralised around a new top threat. If Aegislash is banned, a new top threat will emerge and mons will have increased/decreases viability depending on how well they can deal with that threat. Then complaints will arise about how over centralising that mon is, and the argument repeats forever. Centralisation to top threats is part of competitive Pokemon, and I think it's wonderful the current top threat can be managed with relative ease.

All my points for saving Aegislash have already been made so I will reach 2700 and use my vote to try and save Aegislash.

Nice try but the other suspects barely affected Aegislash viability; Mega Gengar couldn't win, Mega Lucario only would win against Aegislash if it was a Special set with Dark Pulse (and if Lucario was +2!), Mega Kanga would only win with Earthquake. In any of these metas Aegislash was a boss and your agurment is very old and doesn't explay if Aegislash is broken or not.

 

[AM]

Nice try but the other suspects barely affected Aegislash viability; Mega Gengar couldn't win, Mega Lucario only would win against Aegislash if it was a Special set with Dark Pulse (and if Lucario was +2!), Mega Kanga would only win with Earthquake. In any of these metas Aegislash was a boss and your agurment is very old and doesn't explay if Aegislash is broken or not.

That argument wasn't about Aegislash being broken. It was the argument that some people want Aegislash gone for a "more diverse meta", which is dumb because as previously mentioned, a new threat will just take its place and then we're back to using the same old stuff. The suspect thread is great and all but so much of this is theorymonning at times. You're better off going off of your own experiences than trying to justify arguments that look great on paper but not so great in actual practice. That's going to be a case by case thing obviously but yeah just go on the suspect ladder and make a decision on your own instead of just jumping on the next big opinion, regardless if it's the pro-ban side or not.

 

[LT. SURGE111]

You certainly dont know what "counter" is.

You sir, need to learn the definition of a "Counter". A counter is something that can directly switch in no matter the conditions and either wall the pokemon or OHKO it. The closest thing to a counter you said was heatran, which doesn't like switching into either Sacred sword or shadow ball and doesn't exactly OHKO back if it's a defensive set. Mamoswine is never taking a shadow ball, ever. And Zard-Y is not switching in with Rocks up.

Everything you say is strictly situational and assumes that the Aegislash you're playing against has the moves to counter your pokemon. A bulky talonflame is eating Aegislash all day. Shadow sneak attack Greninja kills Aegislash if he's damaged. Landorus checks Aegislash well. Zard-y is definitely going to kill Aegislash if you're a smart player and bring a mandibuzz for the threat. Having mandibuzz is also useful for many of pokemon that would be trouble for you.
I may not understand your terminology well, but I understand the game well enough to deal with an Aegislash and not get torn over it.

 

[Redo]

Aegislash isn't broken, most people argue that he's broken because he can run subtoxic, swordsdance, and special set. But the thing is he can't run all of his sets at once you just have to scout him out, He's easy to play around, the only reason you'd have a problem with him is either you have a garbage ass team or you just don't know how to make good plays in OU.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Everything you say is strictly situational and assumes that the Aegislash you're playing against has the moves to counter your pokemon. A bulky talonflame is eating Aegislash all day. Shadow sneak attack Greninja kills Aegislash if he's damaged. Landorus checks Aegislash well. Zard-y is definitely going to kill Aegislash if you're a smart player and bring a mandibuzz for the threat. Having mandibuzz is also useful for many of pokemon that would be trouble for you.
I may not understand your terminology well, but I understand the game well enough to deal with an Aegislash and not get torn over it.

Is there any Aegislash counter that is not situational?

 

[Redo]

Is there any Aegislash counter that is not situational?

Specially defensive gliscor, Hippowdon could also be one, And I know you're going to bring up the ballon set becuase we all know that aegislash can run all sets at the same time. Edit-Mega Scizor too

 

[Sun King]

Is there any Aegislash counter that is not situational?

Yes, Amoongus can switch in on every set and OHKO with Foul Play.