Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Seismitoad said:
Dusclops is a terrible mon I completely knowwhy it's nu and that's because it has no offensive presence, no good recovery, bad defensive typing, and so many more thuings that are bad. Dusknoir isnt much better but it is better. Avalugg is not good in nu due to it's papaer thin special defense. Not to mention that lilligant is handled by a fire type such as Ninestales laughably easy.
Click to expand...
uh, not really...
+1 252+ SpA Miracle Seed Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 172-203 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 192-228 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs.
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 222-264 (78.7 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
assuming lilli already has a boost (which it probably will if you switched it in at the right time), it's definitely not laughably easy. lilligant will be faster because of the speed boost and actually probably win this battle, albeit with a decent amount of damage.
and for more fire types...
flareon is a problem, but it'll still knock off over half of its hp, which is worth something.
+1 252+ SpA Miracle Seed Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 433-511 (125.8 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Miracle Seed Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Heatmor: 268-316 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
it won't OHKO rapidash without stealth rock but it will with it and if rapidash KOs with flare blitz it'll be taken down by recoil, which is again worth something.
and blah blah i think you get the point. fire types stop her a lot of the time but they don't walk away without heavy damage. the more i look at it the more bugs, flying types, and grass types i see, which are much bigger problems for her (she does still 2HKO cacturne, OHKO chatot which is kinda easy but still, 2HKO exeggcutor, etc., and bugs and flying types are weak to stealth rock though so she still has an OK time) but she can still tear through almost anything that doesn't resist her, which means if you take out anything that resists grass there's a good chance it'll be the end of your opponent. she's not perfect but i don't think she's weak enough to be tiered this low
 
hey guys, I'd just like to clarify that I'd very happy to see this metagame launched. After some brief thought on some of the threats I'm seeing here, there's some things that I'd like to cover:

sneasel is boss: pu is a tier that's filled of Pokemon that vastly relies on Eviolite and other vital items that would allow them to effectively suit their roles (such as leftovers and various choice items), and as such will have quite an ongoing impact towards this metagame. with a lo set alone, knock off wrecks, and ice punch / low kick threatens almost any Pokemon that could otherwise come in. ice shard helps it clean up and allows it to check things like various Scarf Pokemon, which are essentially the only things of relevance outspeeding it. sneasel's nearly unmatched speed tier means that none of the choice scarf users will be able to switch in safely, considering that if they come in on knock off, they would have to take another hit before they can move, likely koing them. pursuit is also nice, guaranteeing damage on things like exeggutor or musharna when trapping them. overall a fantastic pokemon, and something i'd definitely recommend preparing for on any team.

trick room seems exceptionally viable: this tier has a lot of viable offensive playstyles (water/rain spam, sticky web, hyper offense, etc.), but tr in particular seems like a nice eye-catcher. musharna in particular is virtually impossible to prevent setting up tr, and we have a plethora of threats that can really just sit around and smack practically everything around for significant damage. this ranges from threats like pangoro (who can also aid furthermore with parting shot), ursaring, marowak, flareon and even things like exeggutor who can provide some backup on their own with TR and their utility.

garbodor and roselia are capable of stirring a pretty hazard-based metagame. with limited use of defoggers / rapid spinners (Some of the people who posted about them did already mention them above, but honestly I'm not so sure if I'd consider using any of them outside of perhaps maybe mantine, pelipper and wartortle. even then, the metagame is really offensive so it's hardly a good idea to justify making use of momentum killers), as well as the absurd amount of utility that the two are capable of generating, it can be quite a challenge to keep up with the pressure coming from teams that can really benefit from hazard support, especially in a more offensive approach. Stuff like dwebble and pineco seems alright too. sticky web in particular is really good also, as they are able to exploit teams that are primarily centered around their speed (majority of how offense plays).

pivots are really valuable sources to pu also. piloswine is really bulky, and is pretty much our most dependable source for sr while golem is generally more offensive. piloswine is also one of the better checks to sneasel that this tier has, which is quite a boon going for it. golem looks to be good at its classic role as a bulky stealth rock setter too for dealing with things like flareon and dodrio, but it can also play a more offensive approach with weakness policy (this tier has much less ways of getting around sturdy with the lack of sawk and stuff). musharna is exceptionally bulky and overall is just such an adjustable Pokemon. It has so many amazing move options and is only really threatened by sneasel and pangoro, both of which mush is capable of getting around. tangela is very consistent at switching in and out of what it needs to, which is further supported by its utility and regenerator ability. overall most of these pokemon will surely be staple pokemon on various playstyles.

water spam is something that's already mentioned, but i also expect them to be extremely dominant playstyles as well. with pokemon consisting of samurott, barbarcle / carracosta, and huntail, many checks are few and far between and can definitely even support one another. however, i think it's too soon to decide that any of the mons here are individually broken (it might be just because it was a small sample size or the fact that we were all playing very offensively which made them more or less tolerable). i certainly do see a few of them being suspect-worthy, but we shouldn't really push on the idea of banning anything until we've given the meta some time to oscillate.

some other things i'd like to look at down the line:

purugly: great source of priority and momentum, and has access to defiant to deter sticky web teams

drifblim / haunter: looks to be quite anti-meta honestly, with a nifty typing and movepool that allows it to effectively perform roles that's primarily centered around the use of unburden in drifblim's case. haunter's subdisable set is still really effective against slower teams, and is probably the ghost type with the most threatening kind of offensive presence. also d bond is marvelous

pangoro: it's slow but parting shot is still awesome offensive utility. it also has good coverage and hits just about anything hard besides togetic and tangela

liligant: can be a really solid sweeper if used effectively. also, scarf's utility is still legit like so in nu.

scyther: while sr is still annoying, it can really benefit from the presence of hazards otherwise because of it having such great offensive presence and being immune to spikes / tspikes (i've seen plenty of matches where those two would be the preferred hazards to set up over sr). it can also baton pass swords dance on a bulky set which can really work with the presumed prevalence of tangela / musharna and other things it can nab opportunities on.

i'll bring up others soon. this is looking to be quite a fun meta so far!
 
Last edited:
I imagine Lilligant will be a huge threat in PU, and it can even victimize the Water-types that are so threatening if they don't boost. It is a shame that it only has base 90 Speed, as it can't revenge kill +2 Barbaracle even after a boost, but it still should not be underestimated down here in PU. But in reference to accelgors' post, I would personally use Giga Drain rather than Petal Dance, as being locked into a Grass move is never a good idea when Sap Sipper Bouffalant (and Sawsbuck) is also in the tier.

There was talk on IRC about how difficult it will be to switch into Choice Specs Exeggutor as well, so I think that Grass-types should always be prepared for.

Avalugg is rather incompetent as a spinner. It is easy prey for burns due to its low speed and the tendency of many Ghost-types to use Will-O-Wisp. Haunter can simply use its SubDisable set to prevent Avalugg from breaking past it, and it threatens Avalugg really well with its powerful special attacks. Not to mention that the metagame seems skewed towards offense, meaning that Avalugg will lose a lot of momentum for your team, which a competent player can easily take advantage of. Wartortle will likely be the most reliable spinner due to Foresight, while Torkoal is better on more offensive teams with its Shell Smash set, though it can use its defensive set to at least get past the Gourgeist formes.
 
Also, Ive seen a lot of talk of WaterSpam in the tier. While it does have a LOT of dangerous tools (Poliwrath, Carracosta, Barbaracle, DD Lapras, etc), I feel like grasses are just far too common for it to be super dominating right now. Lilligant in particular could just have it's way with waterspam teams, just clicking Petal Dance and basically auto-winning at +1.

Which brings me to a really dangerous looking core:

Lilligant (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Petal Dance
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Sleep Powder / Nature Power

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance

Pretty simple really: Lilligant handles Waterspam for Sneasel, while Sneasel takes down bulky grasses. Not much can really switch in to this combo, as literally all of they're checks are neutered by the other.
 
Peef Rimgar said:
Also, Ive seen a lot of talk of WaterSpam in the tier. While it does have a LOT of dangerous tools (Poliwrath, Carracosta, Barbaracle, DD Lapras, etc), I feel like grasses are just far too common for it to be super dominating right now. Lilligant in particular could just have it's way with waterspam teams, just clicking Petal Dance and basically auto-winning at +1.

blah

Pretty simple really: Lilligant handles Waterspam for Sneasel, while Sneasel takes down bulky grasses. Not much can really switch in to this combo, as literally all of they're checks are neutered by the other.
Click to expand...

Croagunk destroys this core lol

On a serious note, I was an avid PU player Gen V, and I'm glad to see it made a comeback. Two pokemon I see that can be huge due to the new buffs this gen are Marowak and Sneasel.

Marowak- The Bone Keeper Pokemon's ability to hit is nothing short of a nuclear bomb. The only thing preventing this is his speed. Enter Sticky Web. The ability to reduce opposition's speed is a blessing for Marowak. This allows him to outspeed max Speed base 90 pokemon if he runs Jolly. Another solution would be the addition of Huntail to your team. He can perform the same job as his sister, Gorebyss, being the dreaded SmashPass technique. Keep an eye out for Marowak, as he definitely seems like a dark horse in the competition for your wallbreaker.

Sneasel- Baby Weavile comes back for another round of PU, with a new boost in Knock Off. Being able to remove the item of most Pokemon is an amazing gift, and with priority in Ice Shard plus a splendid base 115 Speed, Sneasel can revenge a solid amount of Pokemon in the tier. It also has a strong secondary STAB in Ice Punch, good coverage in Brick Break, and a boosting move in Swords Dance. Sneasel will be a huge threat in the PU tier, and a check/counter to it should be on every team lest you want to be losing your items.

I can't wait to see all of the other Pokemon others post. Good luck to all in this tier!
 
I saw it mentioned once but I have to point out the former fat goddess of Pre-Scoli/Jynx NU in BW, Musharna.

Mushy is ridiculously fat, just look at it. Yes, it's weak to Knock Off but it basically floats and eats its leftovers in the face of any other physical attacker (bar say, Scyther or Megahorn Rott). It holds claim to incredible utility in Trick Room, Baton Pass, Heal Bell, and Thunder Wave, has an ideal fat wall ability in synchronize, and can potentially sweep teams with CM if you get rid of Sneasel and Scyther (some Knock Off users still have trouble beating it once you take mushy's apple away). You can even CM Pass if you're feelin real, but idk if it's worth giving up another important utility move. It's gonna definitely need some more support than in last gen, preferably some bulky Dark resist like Poliwrath (whom kinda reks Sneasel and Scyther unless it has the Aerial Ace, but I bet wrath can live it without any SD boosts). Might need something to neutralize some mixed attackers like Rott who may carry a grass move, but if you cant switch into grass with all these plant threats around, idk what to tell you.
 
Peef Rimgar said:
Also, Ive seen a lot of talk of WaterSpam in the tier. While it does have a LOT of dangerous tools (Poliwrath, Carracosta, Barbaracle, DD Lapras, etc), I feel like grasses are just far too common for it to be super dominating right now. Lilligant in particular could just have it's way with waterspam teams, just clicking Petal Dance and basically auto-winning at +1.

Which brings me to a really dangerous looking core:

Lilligant (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Petal Dance
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Sleep Powder / Nature Power

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance

Pretty simple really: Lilligant handles Waterspam for Sneasel, while Sneasel takes down bulky grasses. Not much can really switch in to this combo, as literally all of they're checks are neutered by the other.
Click to expand...
hm, this sounds good, but let's see who can threaten it.
bouffalant- megahorn destroys both and sap sipper gets rid of lilligant's serious power. this could be a problem. it is slow, though, so sneasel could get at least one attack in, but that's about it.
fire types will be the main problem really, all of them are pretty threatening to this, except camerupt which can't handle lilligant. hidden power rock can take care of some but it lacks petal dance's power so it might not OHKO.
bug types are another issue, although there aren't really many here. the highest ranked is ariados which can't do much. ninjask is a pretty good check though - neither have very high defense and ninjask will outspeed sneasel, and x-scissor could do some serious damage. hidden power rock would probably get rid of it if she's boosted but idk if she's faster at +1 speed. volbeat could be ok with tail glow i guess but it'll be outsped and set up on by both so it can't do anything. masquerain could quiver dance but it has no chance against hidden power or ice punch so that's not a huge problem. butterfree has the same problem. that's about it for the ones with any use at all. um...maybe beedrill? that'll stop them but it's not exactly terrifying.
poison types are bad, but that's another case of them not really being very common. garbodor i guess? it can't OHKO both because it probably won't have both a poison move and a rock move, so both can set up on it. arbok is 2HKO'd by petal dance even though it could've been kinda a threat with coil + intimidate (against sneasel) and super effective STAB against lilligant. it can't coil and hit lilligant at the same time and sneasel can probably do enough damage to finish it off. i don't see any more useful ones
that's it for the ones above 200, so it does look pretty solid
i spend way too much time on this lmao
 
I feel like Grass spam might be good too as a combination of Choice Specs Exeggutor who trashes poison types and has like no switch ins in the tier + Lilligant who can easily clean with Grass resists gone looks to be very powerful because of the Water-type abundance and the fact that Steel-types are uncommon/bad/part Rock.

Bouffalant is the best switch in to Lilligant in the tier and one of the bulkiest and most powerful Pokemon so I can see it being a very big threat capable of setting up Substitute on the weak walls that plague the tier and smash switch ins.

Obviously PU is a tier full of psychic types and former NU queen Musharna can really shine too with the only viable Dark-type being Sneasel and capable of using calm mind of a lot of mons.

Seriously this tier reminds me a lot of BW NU and I'm sure it will be pretty fun to play
 
Seismitoad said:
I agree with you on the whole sticky web thing but kriketune>leavanny, it can use koff and sticky web along with endeavor which is handy for wearing down walls. Also WE HAVE TANGELA so it will be like gen 5 nu where everything has to run hp ice/fire or a bug move so yeah there's that. Ursaring seems like a very good user of sticky web ho as it hits like a truck and it's low speed it mitigated. AV Beheeyem is actually quite decent in nu so I can assume it would be good here because beheeyem is one if not the hardest hitting special attacker in the tier and it can take more hits but lose recover.
Click to expand...

Leavanny has better speed and access to Magic Coat, though. Kricketune is complete Taunt bait (and since both are kind of bad outside of SW, predicting web isn't that hard). I'll grant you that Endeavor/Knock Off is useful, but if you're honestly worried about walls on a web offense team, then you're missing out on something. Also, Leavanny hits all 3 relevant Shell Smashers in the tier with SE Leaf Blade (sure, WP Carracosta sucks but it'll still die to any priority after taking a 4x SE hit). It also has X-Scissor to hit Lilligant, which is a guaranteed OHKO from full. Hell, Lilligant can't even try to put it to sleep before it sets up Sticky Web because Grass-type.

Also why is AV Beheeyem relevant? 75/95 defenses on mono-psychic typing aren't exactly bulky (whatever utility you can get out of the stats is neutered by its typing), and I'd rather either use it as a TR setter (which precludes the use of assault vest) or take advantage of Specs/LO Analytic-boosted attacks coming off of Base 125 SpA to break down walls. I'm sure there's some niche out of it, but it seems like a waste of its power.

Tangela isn't too hard to manage. Special attackers should be able to do a decent chunk of damage because even with Eviolite, base 40 SpD is still complete garb. Even with Regen it can't come into any special attacker, meaning it'll be setup fodder for Lilligant, who can run Lum Berry to block status and hit back with HP Fire/Ice.

+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 260-308 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tangela is a decent check to physical attackers but is held back by garb SpD and the fact that it has to switch out of every physical attacker that might have knock off, else its walling capabilities are seriously compromised

--
Specs Exeggutor is something I overlooked, but it's definitely solid. Only problem is low speed, but with absolutely no safe switch ins (IIRC Dusclops is the only thing in the tier that can avoid the 2HKO from any of its moves, and Dusclops is too passive to do anything back), it'll be one of the tier's best special wallbreakers (oh look more stuff to abuse with SW like there wasn't enough of that)
 
PowerStyler said:
Leavanny has better speed and access to Magic Coat, though. Kricketune is complete Taunt bait (and since both are kind of bad outside of SW, predicting web isn't that hard). I'll grant you that Endeavor/Knock Off is useful, but if you're honestly worried about walls on a web offense team, then you're missing out on something. Also, Leavanny hits all 3 relevant Shell Smashers in the tier with SE Leaf Blade (sure, WP Carracosta sucks but it'll still die to any priority after taking a 4x SE hit). It also has X-Scissor to hit Lilligant, which is a guaranteed OHKO from full. Hell, Lilligant can't even try to put it to sleep before it sets up Sticky Web because Grass-type.

Also why is AV Beheeyem relevant? 75/95 defenses on mono-psychic typing aren't exactly bulky (whatever utility you can get out of the stats is neutered by its typing), and I'd rather either use it as a TR setter (which precludes the use of assault vest) or take advantage of Specs/LO Analytic-boosted attacks coming off of Base 125 SpA to break down walls. I'm sure there's some niche out of it, but it seems like a waste of its power.

Tangela isn't too hard to manage. Special attackers should be able to do a decent chunk of damage because even with Eviolite, base 40 SpD is still complete garb. Even with Regen it can't come into any special attacker, meaning it'll be setup fodder for Lilligant, who can run Lum Berry to block status and hit back with HP Fire/Ice.

+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 260-308 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tangela is a decent check to physical attackers but is held back by garb SpD and the fact that it has to switch out of every physical attacker that might have knock off, else its walling capabilities are seriously compromised

--
Specs Exeggutor is something I overlooked, but it's definitely solid. Only problem is low speed, but with absolutely no safe switch ins (IIRC Dusclops is the only thing in the tier that can avoid the 2HKO from any of its moves, and Dusclops is too passive to do anything back), it'll be one of the tier's best special wallbreakers (oh look more stuff to abuse with SW like there wasn't enough of that)
Click to expand...

while leavanny makes plenty of use with magic coat and is faster, this is its only notable form of utility it has. the issue with it being its only form of utility is that it's limited to going into a series of 50-50 scenarios against threats that it has the potential to lose to, such as sludge bomb roselia, gunk shot garbodor, and various stealth rock users with their attacks. otherwise, it doesn't really have much business making use of magic coat and it would otherwise be better off trying to setup webs (assuming it hasn't already) or damage stuff (with typically just x-scissor, leaf blade, or leaf storm).

the only other utility-based options that are even remotely worth considering on leavanny would probably be heal bell, dual screens, baton pass. heal bell at least allows it to heal something should an important wallbreaker for your sticky web team get statused (uncommon situation, but works i suppose), and baton pass encourages the player to disrupt the team as soon as possible and then get out. that kind of momentum could perhaps be helpful for a team since sticking around longer just means the opponent can have more opportunities to set up on your weak attacks (you could argue that you can just manually switch around, but the idea of bp is to scout what your opponent would try to switch to in attempts of setting up).

in the case of kricketune, it's not nearly as taunt bait as you're suggesting. it's not even a common scenario against it, considering that the taunt user risks getting their item knocked off if they don't try to ko it outright (which is one of the utility moves that separates it from leavanny). it also has access to taunt itself which is a major advantage considering that this allows it to potentially create a lot of early-game momentum.

regarding tangela, most of the physical attackers that carry knock off usually are the ones that beats it anyway (notably dodrio and sneasel). even without its item, it doesn't necessarily stop tangela from pivoting and performing its job considering its utility and the fact that it still has naturally high defense. it also has knock off on its own which can discourage other grass types from switching in, and has some nice options such as sleep powder and leech seed to work off with. the ability to counter physical shell smash sweepers also shouldn't be overlooked, as they are some of the biggest offensive threats in the tier. even though its lack of special bulk can be a letdown, i wouldn't discount its walling capabilities on the physical side, nor its utility either.
 
^I'll grant you that Magic Coat is a fairly risky 50/50, but how is it any different from the scenario with Kricketune's Knock Off/Sticky Web scenario vs. a Taunt user? You're still essentially predicting a 50/50, since if you Knock Off against an attack, you're down to your sash and probably out your webs for the game, while if you go for webs against Taunt, you can't set up webs and your opponent can just bring in something that doesn't mind losing its item, or else just start hitting because a Web Offense team really can't afford its web setter being unable to do its job. At least with Leavanny, the 50/50 boils down to the ability to bounce Taunt and get the opportunity to beat anti-leads to set up webs regardless, at which point it's done its job and can either die, bp or magic coat against hazard leads, while Kricketune can't play around it with as significant an effect and either switches out (possibly after knocking off an item) or dies, costing you your webs for the match. Sure, Leavanny loses to all the hazard leads you mentioned, but after setting webs it can magic coat until your opponent either kills it or switches their hazard lead out, at which point you can keep applying offensive pressure to prevent them from setting further hazards. In either case, you're still better off having had the ability to counter other leads, something Kricketune can't do.

Oh, and this statement here:

in the case of kricketune, it's not nearly as taunt bait as you're suggesting. it's not even a common scenario against it, considering that the taunt user risks getting their item knocked off if they don't try to ko it outright
Click to expand...

given the risk/reward scenario web offense teams face (read: set webs up asap or you're essentially starting 5-6, your team being harder to work with at this point since web offense teams are designed to leverage the increased relative speed that you've now lost from turn 1), I'm not sure how you can claim attempting to taunt something whose only purpose on its team is to set up a team-supporting hazard is a rare situation, or how losing an item is equivalent.

EDIT: Fair enough, counter was not the right word. It can still disrupt enemy hazard leads while Kricketune can't immediately threaten them. That said, given that the goal of web leads is to get webs up as quickly as possible, the ability to force a 50/50 against faster taunters that would otherwise full stop prevent them from doing their jobs is of greater utility to the team, especially since both are pretty frail and aren't likely to stick around after setting up anyway.
 
Last edited:
Sure, Leavanny loses to all the hazard leads you mentioned, but after setting webs it can magic coat until your opponent either kills it or switches their hazard lead out, at which point you can keep applying offensive pressure to prevent them from setting further hazards. In either case, you're still better off having had the ability to counter other leads, something Kricketune can't do.
Click to expand...

honestly, you're contradicting yourself a bit here. i'm a bit unsure of why you'd state that leavanny can "counter" other leads when as you agreed yourself, leavanny can generally lose to them. yes it can disrupt them provided that you have made timely use of it, but magic coat does not in any way, shape or form, allow it to counter them in the sense of the word. as i said, it only allows it to force a 50/50 scenario in which the opposing hazard setter would likely come out on top anyway, due to their ability to directly beat leavanny. also, just like after leavanny can magic coat whatever after setting up webs, kricketune can continue supporting the team with options like knock off, taunt, and endeavor, making it more useful utility-wise after it has successfully set up.

You're still essentially predicting a 50/50, since if you Knock Off against an attack, you're down to your sash and probably out your webs for the game, while if you go for webs against Taunt, you can't set up webs and your opponent can just bring in something that doesn't mind losing its item, or else just start hitting because a Web Offense team really can't afford its web setter being unable to do its job. At least with Leavanny, the 50/50 boils down to the ability to bounce Taunt and get the opportunity to beat anti-leads to set up webs regardless,
Click to expand...

what you posted here pretty much proves that kricketune is better at utility, as even if it goes for knock off / endeavor on the turn that the opponent attacks, it at least still manages to support its team by crippling the opposing mon (and no i'm not suggesting anything to be equivalent, as that's not really the point). this is not the case for leavanny, as if you mispredict with magic coat and the opponent attacks you in the corresponding turn, you accomplish nothing. that's the key difference here; the fact that leavanny is limited to just magic coat for support outside of web still backs up my claim that kricketune has more effective utility overall (although leavanny can get out easier if it runs bp, and heal bell/dual screens are less consistent, but can only really work at very specific situations). leavanny on the other hand, really just relies more on its offensive presence on the grand scheme of things, and even then its coverage is frankly limited at best.
 
I definitely agree on the fact that Kricketune is the best sticky web user in the tier. While its speed is nothing short of amazing it is just enough to outspeed and Taunt+Endeavor all the defogger (which are defensive) preventing Defog not to mention Knock Off which is always Knock Off. Leavanny has Magic Coat and better stats ok, it is not completely outclassed but i feel like Kricketune is the better choice to set and keep Sticky Web on the field
 
It's worth noting that Kricketune outspeeds most of the Defoggers and Taunt them, giving it a nice niche over Leavanny, who is powerless against them. Leavanny's biggest selling point in NU is its ability to simultaneously defeat Xatu and most common rocks setters like Seismitoad, Sandslash, and Rhydon, while not having to worry too much about Taunters thanks to its Speed + Magic Cout, but here in PU Kricketune outspeeds the best rock setter (Golem) anyway (not that it's beating Golem but it does means guaranteed webs), stands a better chance at beating Garbodor and Roselia with Taunt, and has nice utility moves outside of getting web up. There also aren't many amazing Taunt users I can see, except maybe like Samurott, Sneasel, or Vullaby (am I missing something?). I guess Leavanny does have the niche of always winning vs Ditto as long as it doesn't carry X-Scissor but it's probably not that worth it unless Ditto becomes super common or something.

Webs teams have a lot of powerful weapons, it seems. Choice Band Flareon, Marowak, Samurott, and of course Specs Eggy stand out to me the most, most of which are good in NU Web teams as it is. I expect the web teambuilding formula to be similar to that of the upper tiers ie. web / speed / breaker / breaker / spinblocker / support. I'm a little interested in web + water spam given that water spam can deal with Lilligant a whole lot easier when it is at -1 Speed, especially when Bouffalant, the best Lilligant/Tangela counter, fits nicely onto web teams as well! Haunter will probably be the best spinblocker for web teams given that it's the best offensive Ghost-type and appreciates the boost to outrun Scarf Lilligant, Tauros Sneasel, etc., fulfilling the speed department nicely. Lilligant herself could see some use here as well, using the Speed to outrun the Simis, Sneasel, and Tauros, while providing nice support with Sleep Powder or Healing Wish which no other offensive PUmon can boast!

When I eventually build a team I'll hang around in #pu and fight
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-148436119

Here's a replay galbia was going to post but he didn't, what a butt >:[

Anyway, this replay right here shows the potency of stall in this meta rn, there's a surprising amount of very bulky mons around here and FWG cores are very potent what with some very dangerous Water- and Grass-types running around in here. Good defensive grassers include Roselia, the Gourgeist family and possibly Gogoat, Poliwrath is a very potent force and probably the best bulky water around because you really need something for monsters like Sneasel and Barbaracle, defensive Fires are sometimes frowned upon but specially defensive Flareon is a pretty great mon, Torkoal could work too if you want a spinner. Togetic is, as you can see in this replay, extremely bulky (it sponges LO Tauros' Rock Climbs, that takes quite a lot of bulk. In another game vs galbia of which I don't have a replay, it takes around 40% from Raichu's Thunderbolt, a SE attack) and has access to cool shit like Defog and Heal Bell. Even though there's a lot of offensive stuff running around, stall has the tools to beat them.

On galbia's side you can see Lampent putting in work, Kricketune being not useless despite the fact that I didn't care about webs during this match so it's a p. good mon and Samurott being a total bitch (also fuck freeze so hard oml).

This tier is looking like tons of fun, will definitely be playing this :]
 
Robert Alfons said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-148436119

Here's a replay galbia was going to post but he didn't, what a butt >:[

Anyway, this replay right here shows the potency of stall in this meta rn, there's a surprising amount of very bulky mons around here and FWG cores are very potent what with some very dangerous Water- and Grass-types running around in here. Good defensive grassers include Roselia, the Gourgeist family and possibly Gogoat, Poliwrath is a very potent force and probably the best bulky water around because you really need something for monsters like Sneasel and Barbaracle, defensive Fires are sometimes frowned upon but specially defensive Flareon is a pretty great mon, Torkoal could work too if you want a spinner. Togetic is, as you can see in this replay, extremely bulky (it sponges LO Tauros' Rock Climbs, that takes quite a lot of bulk. In another game vs galbia of which I don't have a replay, it takes around 40% from Raichu's Thunderbolt, a SE attack) and has access to cool shit like Defog and Heal Bell. Even though there's a lot of offensive stuff running around, stall has the tools to beat them.

On galbia's side you can see Lampent putting in work, Kricketune being not useless despite the fact that I didn't care about webs during this match so it's a p. good mon and Samurott being a total bitch (also fuck freeze so hard oml).

This tier is looking like tons of fun, will definitely be playing this :]
Click to expand...
With strong attackers from every side and terrifying wallbreakers like Pangoro and Exeggutor i feel like Togetic will be the glue that will hold Stall togheter in this Tier. Togetic is incredibly fat on both sides and has a ridiculously good typing (bar its nasty SR weakness) that let's it take on almost everything without a SE STAB move and then act as a Cleric, spread Status, or do some damage with Dazzling Gleam/Stoss.
BRAKE STUPID FERYYY
 
captainpokemon said:
Does poor Glaceon have a chance to be amazing in this tier? :(
Click to expand...
With an effective Sticky Web setter like Kricketune around Glaceon will probably be a decent wallbreaker in this tier (it has the highest Special attack too!). The only thing capable of taking repeated hits is probably specially defensive flareon (who looks good with all the powerful grass types) but its weakness to stealth Rock might mean that Glaceon will be able to overpower it
 
galbia said:
With an effective Sticky Web setter like Kricketune around Glaceon will probably be a decent wallbreaker in this tier (it has the highest Special attack too!). The only thing capable of taking repeated hits is probably specially defensive flareon (who looks good with all the powerful grass types) but its weakness to stealth Rock might mean that Glaceon will be able to overpower it
Click to expand...
So can we finally say that Glaceon is a rank S pokemon in this tier? Man if yes I would be so happy!!!
 
Peef Rimgar said:
I definitely wouldn't say S. It would require a fair bit of support, but could crush after a SmashPass / Web. Probably B-/C+, but it's still theorymon tbh
Click to expand...
Awww. But still B is still way better than lingering in the darkest depths of the D rank of NU :( damn you GF for not making ice resist water and flying and for not giving Glaceon freeze-dry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top