CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[Birkal]

Welcome to CAP 19, CAP community, let's get the discussion going! Here's the concept that we've voted in and that we'll discussing here and throughout the project:

Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Explanation: Just going back to the basic rules of Pokemon, we all know we have to faint all 6 Pokemon on the opposing team. Once a member goes down, we think of it as a 5v6, and then subsequently a 4v6, etc. However, I was thinking if it was possible for a Pokemon to somehow "continue fighting", even after it faints, be it through a lasting effect on the field or by dissuading your opponent from fainting it. That, or having your opponent having the thought of fainting the mon being a taboo, causing them to choose their moves carefully instead of swinging their sweeper into motion all the time. Maybe the Pokemon can grab momentum extremely easily? I'm trying to wrap my head around my own concept myself, but you get the general idea. I hope.

I actually drew lots of inspiration from a specific type of Hyper Offense team in OU; the one known as "Flying Spam". However, that one is kind of one-dimensional and relies on repeatedly attacking to wear down your opponent's answers; my concept however tries to discover if it's even possible at all to take on that idea with a more defensive/balanced approach, or, on the flip side, to dissuade your opponent from recklessly swinging their battering rams into your team as it will leave repercussions if the mon faints.

Guidelines:

1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

Our new topic leader, Pwnemon, will start off this thread with his opening thoughts. Make absolutely certain that you use his post as a starting point for your discussion to follow. Continue to pay attention to his posts as he begins to guide the community through the chosen topic! It's very important that we are discussing with each other under the TL's guidance, and not talk *over* each other! Posts will be deleted accordingly!

Let's start again with a fresh outlook.

 

[Stratos]

Hi CAP!

Hopefully we can put that last thread behind us and breathe some new life into this project. I'm excited for it!

So the one thing we decided in the last concept assessment thread was that we were going to make a Pokemon that would try to discourage its own knockout by creating a game-ending scenario if it was knocked out in the right ways. The example of this given by the concept creator, Yilx, was a Chansey. If this Chansey were knocked out by Keldeo (the easiest way to KO it), Gothitelle would revenge trapkill the Keldeo, ending the game right there. Thus the Chansey fulfilled the concept of Einherjar.

So we plan to make a Pokemon like this Chansey except in more broadly applicable scenarios. It can be *fairly* easily KOed, but by Pokemon that will give you massive momentum with the free switch. It's important to say that we ARE NOT making an explicit support Pokemon. We haven't pinned down the Pokemon's role at all. But what it will not be is a Pokemon intended to faint so that the thing in back can get a free sweep. For one, that's not fulfilling the concept—the goal is to avoid fainting, not walk into it. For two, as ginganinja said, if we make a Pokemon like that, it's probably going to be pretty bad, just bring Unaware or whatever and not care about either it or the Pokemon it's supporting. That's not to say that the Pokemon can't happen to support its partner—for example, a Steel-type can eliminate Clefable, which stops Mega Gyara sweeps, but it's not like "light screen reflect safeguard memento." It's just a normal Pokemon that happens to have this attribute to it.

As I said in the last thread, there are three main things that factor into this Pokemon's performance:

1. How "selective" the CAP is. Abomasnow and Wonder Guard Scizor can both "filter" in Fire-types to kill them, but the Scizor is obviously going to a better job of making sure it's killed by the right things.
2. How threatening the CAP is. A Burmy and a Genesect are both easiest to kill with Fire-type moves. But I'm obviously more likely to kill the Genesect with a Fire-type than a Burmy if there's an Mgyara in back. i can afford the time it takes to slowly kill Burmy, but Genesect might be worth the risk.
3. How immediately game-ending the backup is. Whether I have a Wish Vaporeon or a Gyarados in back, both appreciate free switch-ins on Fire types. But I'm a lot less likely to KO something with a Fire type if they have the Gyarados.

Worth noting that strength increases as any of the above three increase, but willingness to "activate the trap card" decreases with 3, but increases with 1 and 2.

So the main question to me is what sort of build takes most advantage of this trait? For example, we could make the CAP a setup sweeper itself, but at that point it's threatening enough that I'm willing to KO it through whatever means necessary. And even though a double dragon core sounds like a fun concept, it's not fulfilling this one. We could make it a wall, perhaps, or a pivot, or a hazard setter, or any number of things. Remember, the CAP doesn't need to survive the match to be successful, but it doesn't need to die either. It's kind of a more...abstract concept in that sense.

A debate toward the end of the last CAP was "what do we partner our Pokemon with?" Some were in favor of partnering with a single Pokemon and argued which to partner with. Others were in favor of not restricting ourselves to a single partner for fear of counterteams. I see the merit in having multiple partners, but I'd just like to say, the playtest meta is never going to be representative of the CAP having a normal usage %. So it's pointless to try. There will be counterteams. Don't make decisions based off the playtest.

I personally am in favor of finding a couple of sweepers that have similar setup baits and building to kind of work with both of them. For example, DD MGyara, DD Nite, and DD Zard X all set up on Fire-types. DD Gyara and CM Keld both set up on Water-types. That way, we're not putting all our eggs in one basket, but at the same time, we're giving ourselves something concrete to work toward. And I'd rather err on the side of less partners, so we don't have a CAP that's all muddled and confused about what it should be weak to.

These are the two main questions that I think need to be answered right now: 1) What sort of role do we take on to take advantage of our lose-lose partnership? 2) What do we build the CAP to partner with?

 

[Agile Turtle]

Honestly, question two should be answered first. In order to find out what role CAP should fill, it's easier to pick the mon(s) we want to pair with and see what they need. We can look at team archetypes that we can commonly find our mon(s) in and see what kinds of things they appreciate and utilize. For this reason I'm going to answer question two first.

2) What do we build the CAP to partner with?
I like the idea of pairing CAP with Dragon Dance users, specifically the three that you stated: Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Charizard X. With the free set up turn CAPs death will give, Dragonite essentially gets two free turns to set up with Dragon Dance due to multiscale. Two dragon dances makes our backup mon a lot more threatening, so the opponent will be more afraid to kill CAP. I like Mega Gyarados because it has the ability Mold Breaker which allows it do get through Unaware mons. Other than those two I like Mega Charizard X because all three resist fire, so it fits in with them.

1) What sort of role do we take on to take advantage of our lose-lose partnership?
Without even looking at teammates or team archetypes, you can see all three mons are weak to stealth rock. Dragonite and Charizard X especially don't like it because it breaks through Dragonite's Multiscale, and Charizard loses half its health in its base form. So our mons can take advantage of hazard removal, and hazard removal is a pretty important role on a team, especially when you have mons weak to SR. Your opponent won't appreciate you removing their hazards either.

So hazard removal is one role that can benefit this core, but we need CAPs role to be very important. Just "hazard removal" doesn't seem like enough to go on for me. We want it to be important enough that it's worth the "bodyguard" we'd give it. We need it to be important enough that the opponent will want to kill it by normal means, and not just ignore it and let it die slowly. So like I said before, we should definitely look at archetypes we can find these mons and look at the important roles for these archetypes.

 

[Yveltal]

My attendance as a lurker on the first CA thread was spotty, but I feel like there's been an issue that hasn't been explored enough.

We should put more emphasis on prediction. The first thought I snap to when I think about this concept is "give your opponent something else to do other than trying to beat this mon" Making enough of a mess out of their active Pokemon that they'd rather switch it out and/or spend time repairing the status of their team seems to match this concept just fine. Give it Healing Wish or a similar technique that helps out your team, and you have an answer for handling losing this 'mon; Just faint it at the same time your opponent would.
The stats and moveset for this kind of Pokemon would have a lot of if/thens in mind, almost like it takes out-predicting to a new level. If you lead with it, you have to bother your opponent in a certain manner, and switch at a certain point. If they switch into a stallbreaker in the hopes that they can move on with the rest of the match past this mon, you have to either switch into an anti-breaker to cover CAP19's ass, or over predict and switch into something that would dissuade them from switching into what they had planned for their next turn. If your opponent plans on setting up, then you need to find a solution that delays their eventual first offensive hit to keep from losing HP too fast. If it's about to faint, then you need to access the utility we want out of it to put the momentum of the battle in your favor.

It's all only an example, but we need to figure out how much predictability we want from both players while CAP19 is active and how much control (as a product of prediction, we hope) is sufficient for meeting this concept. How is this CAP going to make your predictions about the opponent real? How many situations can it illicit the responses it needs to do well? There's something else beyond having a step-by-step plan for using CAP19 and its teammates in conjunction (with coverage sprinkled in) that i don't think we have a grasp on.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

To answer the second question, I think it would be more interesting to build this CAP to partner with Nasty Plot users, since it remains relatively unutilized compared to Dragon Dance in the XY metagame. Pokemon with access to Nasty Plot that can be viable in the OU metagame include Togekiss, Thundurus, and Mega Houndoom, which are all weak to Rock, suggesting hazard removal as one potential role. Since all three Pokemon take little damage from Mandibuzz and other physical walls for the most part, it would make sense for a CAP following this idea to be susceptible to such walls.

Also, a common factor between my idea and the Dragon Dance partners I've noticed is that the beneficiaries named in both proposals are all Pokemon that appreciate having hazard support to assist their sweeps. As such, further penalizing the opponent for not KOing CAP 19 by allowing it to lay down some form of entry hazards seems like a logical option.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Also, a common factor between my idea and the Dragon Dance partners I've noticed is that the beneficiaries named in both proposals are all Pokemon that appreciate having hazard support to assist their sweeps. As such, further penalizing the opponent for not KOing CAP 19 by allowing it to lay down some form of entry hazards seems like a logical option.

I'm going to piggy back off this idea, since nobody else has addressed what role we actually want CAP 19 to have on a team.

If we're going at this from an angle of hazard setter that gives you a free switch into a scary sweeper, here are about the proportions I would hope to see on the CAP.

1. How selective it is. 8/10
If we want the CAP to aid the sweeper significantly, this is going go need to be rather high. Every Pokemon that can get past CAP 19 and still threaten the sweeper enough to keep it from setting up has no reason to be dissuaded from killing the CAP.

2. How threatening the CAP is. 3/10
Let's face it, you've probably never switch your Psychic Pokemon away just because Forretress was on the opponent's end of the battle. Hazard setters don't really need to be incredibly threatening themselves. They don't need to be; Stealth Rock, Poison Spikes, and the like are themselves a huge threat.

3. How immediately game-ending the the backup is after set-up 9/10
I feel the need to add the highlighted to the original concept, because we probably want to support a Pokemon that gets leaps and bounds better after set-up, rather than somebody who can get better off of a boost, but not significantly enough that you care.
With this distinction out of the way, if we're willing to sacrifice an entire Pokemon and two team slots each game just for this set-up fodder play, it needs to provide enough leverage in the fight to gain a crushing lead if it goes off smoothly. Otherwise, CAP's not going to get the team slot over better hazard setters.

 

[Boss jr.]

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves: The most obvious answers to this question are 1) It has fainted 1 or more pokes on it's own (however that may be) 2) it sets up hazards 3) it afflicts status on the opponents pokes 4) it passes stat boosts or healing to you team 5) it sets up weather.
  
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?: By giving it value beyond simply smashing it against the opposing team until it dies. That rules out giving it a choice item. It sounds to me like it supports the team in a way that's valuable beyond sacrificing it. Which also rules out sacrificial leads as well. We could give it the option to set up hazards but it should to more than that like scout the opponent's team for instance. This plays back into dissuading the opponent from fainting it as that right there could make this poke a good scouter. Maybe by giving it roar or whirlwind?
  
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?: Absolutely, especially if it passed around status and set up hazards. A scouter that passes status and accumulated passive damage with hazards? Might be kind of broken as a pokemon like this could be very frustrating. The opponent might get desperate to KO it but the idea is to make them think twice about that so maybe it could be paired with an ability that that's potentially more dangerous than letting it stay alive. Or making it easy to cripple such that letting it camp on the battle field is better than fainting it.
  
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?: Perhaps. If the opponent keeps thinking back "If only I hadn't fainted CAP 19 I wouldn't have this problem!"
  
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!": Perhaps. Maybe if the CAP hinges on crippling choiced pokes or making attacking it outright more dangerous. Like slamming the brakes on pokemon that otherwise attack as if it were second nature.

It seems to me that fainting this pokemon leaves a consequence that causes the opponent to think more carefully about how they do it. Fainting therefore should be a direct trigger for something undesirable that the opponent would have to deal with creatively. But again... it should also be useful beyond just dying. The trick is to balance the decision on "What's more damaging to my team? Letting CAP 19 stay alive, or suffer the consequence of fainting it?".

The only thing that I can think of that fainting really offers is a free switch. Are there abilities that activate upon fainting that this CAP could perhaps use to better effect in order to generate synergy?

Edit: I'm leaning towards this poke being a scouter since dissuading the opponent would let it do that without fear. So that makes the question "Do I let CAP 19 scout my team or suffer the effects of Fainting it?" And how damaging can a good scout be in the long run? That's just one idea though. lol

 

[FireArrow]

If we go the set-up support route, CAP19 should be a speedy, frail, nuke hitting on the opposite side of the spectrum as the set-up sweepers we are supporting. The general idea is that we force in a wall that cannot wall our receiver, and us being frail enough to easily fall to our counters, force the opponent into the exact situation we're trying to create. Imagine if Water Absorb Quagsire was a fearsome set-up sweeper when paired with Talonflame. Talonflame would bait in nonexistant Rock/Water Types which may not want to harm Talonflame knowing our hypothetical Tyranno-Quagsire would end the game.

Just as an extra food for thought, we could take capefeathers example to the next level and pair CAP19 with a trapping mon.

To answer the second question, I think it would be more interesting to build this CAP to partner with Nasty Plot users, since it remains relatively unutilized compared to Dragon Dance in the XY metagame. Pokemon with access to Nasty Plot that can be viable in the OU metagame include Togekiss, Thundurus, and Mega Houndoom, which are all weak to Rock, suggesting hazard removal as one potential role. Since all three Pokemon take little damage from Mandibuzz and other physical walls for the most part, it would make sense for a CAP following this idea to be susceptible to such walls.

Also, a common factor between my idea and the Dragon Dance partners I've noticed is that the beneficiaries named in both proposals are all Pokemon that appreciate having hazard support to assist their sweeps. As such, further penalizing the opponent for not KOing CAP 19 by allowing it to lay down some form of entry hazards seems like a logical option.

The issue with Nasty Plot is that it doesn't boost speed, leaving us with many threats that can revenge kill us. We need to make sure that our set-up will take down multiple pokemon before falling (otherwise it won't be enough influence to deter KOing CAP19.)

 

[SonicDaGamer]

CAP 19 should be a Pokémon that can work as a sweeper, but can also lure in a great offensive presence and send in a trapper, revenge killer, or common threat.
1. Because my idea of CAP 19 is part sweeper, it can KO a Pokémon without support and, with support, can haunt you for KOing it.
2. It is different because it has offensive capabilities. It can act as a normal sweeper, but when it faints, you can (with the right Pokémon) avenge it.
3. Yes, if it had decent defenses and HP. It can use status and phasing to be a more defensive threat with the same trait of doubting whether or not to attack it.
4. Yes. By knocking out a Pokémon, it can permanently shift the tide of battle. By using status, it leaves the Pokémon with it for the rest of the battle.
5. Yes. Lets say, for example, I was using an Azumarill. I am against CAP 19. I think, "I can easily KO that!" And then I see that my opponent has an Aegislash on their team, so I start thinking, "Maybe I should switch out." So then I switch out to Charizard Y. This gives CAP 19 a free turn to do whatever it wants. Status, setup, attack, etc.
Edit: I'm leaning toward either a sweeper or a Pokémon that inflicts a Pokémon with status and ships it back into the team, then repeat. You could even do both at the same time!

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Weather was a love or hate idea in the last thread, but I'd like to point out at least that some notable Sun Abusers do very well against the Unaware mons. If we're going the route of pairing with set up sweepers, having ways to break Clefable and Quagsire is pretty vital. Multiple Chlorophyll users have Grass/Poison STAB that can destroy these Unaware users. In OU, the go-to Sun Setter is Zard Y, but having only 5 turns of active Sunlight doesn't leave much room for teammates to abuse the weather.

That said, unfortunately Sun Abusers usually have a lot of problems with Talonflame, as Brave Bird rips through most Chlorophyll mons... If for some reason pairing with Sub Abusers gains support, CAP19 could be designed to help counter Talonflame, but the fire bird is so common that I'm not honestly sure if trying to partner with Sun Abusers is the best idea. Just thought I'd mention the idea, however, since Venusaur in the sun is such a perfect Unaware counter.

Also, I'm not opposed to partnering CAP19 with the Dragon Dance users that have been mentioned. Most of them are bulky enough to avoid issues with priority, and additionally they are not useless without support to start with. In general, I think it would be best for CAP19 to turn it's lose/lose situation into something that gives its already viable partner a little extra oomph rather than trying to make something suddenly become usable in OU. Sure, some things could benefit from specifically designed support, but I'm on the side that thinks we shouldn't limit ourselves to just one or two possible partners.

 

[Stratos]

To answer the second question, I think it would be more interesting to build this CAP to partner with Nasty Plot users, since it remains relatively unutilized compared to Dragon Dance in the XY metagame. Pokemon with access to Nasty Plot that can be viable in the OU metagame include Togekiss, Thundurus, and Mega Houndoom

I'd like to point out at least that some notable Sun Abusers do very well against the Unaware mons.

I'd rather not repeat the lesson we got from Voodoom. Or the lesson we got from Volkraken. (they're the same lesson). If we're going to build CAPs with regards to existing Pokemon on my watch, we're going to pick viable ones.

I would like to see a lot of commentary on what to partner with. This is a big decision to make. So I've copied over some relevant posts from the last Concept Assessment thread:

RE Partners, I would rather us pick a pokemon that's particularly strong (ie lets not go down the Lucario route like we did last CAP), and can bypass Unaware users.
The concept is to make the opponent not want to make CAP faint.

Ergo, if I have an Unaware mon in the wings, or a hard counter specifically designed to handle a particularly commonly seen sweeper, then there is no downside to me killing said CAP, because CAPs "partner" (using the term in the loosest possible sense) contains zero threat so long as I have its counter in the wings. So, in reiteration, there is little point in us picking a single (or group), or pokemon to work with this CAP, if common hard counters to these pokemon already easily exist, because as long as I have X hard countered, then I have no issues whatsoever killing CAP, thus, the Concept is not achieved. Specifically, I would want to look at really good set up sweeper, that perhaps have a slightly rarer set that would encourage less specific preparation thus decreasing the chances your opponent already has existing measures in place on his or her team to handle it, thus increasing the likelihood that your opponent will give significant pause before killing our CAP, least it provide that free momentum for our partner(s).

It's also preferable the partner getting set up doesn't instantly get revenged by many common priority users, whether by bulk, resistances, or its own priority. Obviously there are more priority users than Unaware mons and I don't expect to cover them all. But a few would be nice.

I agree with the posts above. CAP19's viability will be largely connected to the viability of the teammates we select for it. If we're going to make the most of the free turn provided by CAP19's death, then we have to make sure to choose a Pokemon that's going to pose a large threat to the opponent's team after just one turn of setup. We're not trying to make a barely viable Pokemon work, we're trying to make a good Pokemon work even better.

Personally, I think Mega Gyarados is the Pokemon to go with here because not a lot of Pokemon hard counter it, it resists the ubiquitous Sucker Punch from Bisharp and Mega Mawile, and can plow through Unaware Pokemon thanks to Mold Breaker (it 2HKOs both Clefable and Quagsire at +1 with Waterfall). It doesn't like Thunder Wave or Brave Bird, but can at least KO the Thundurus or Talonflame after taking the attack.

If we go with Pokemon that can wreck either Unaware Pokemon or priority users, then we can have CAP19 focus on the other half. At the very least, we remove a large burden towards letting our setup turn mean something.

While I agree with ginga, srk, and DLC, I would caution against looking to hard at any one individual partner. This concept is not Perfect Mate, and no matter what partner we can choose, if we only have one, we run the risk of running into teams that hold counters to said partner, even if they are not super common. I think that ideally, we should look to pick out a few different Pokemon and be able to partner with all of them (maybe not all at once, but at least set dependent). This minimizes the situations where the opponent will be able to just run X, Y or Z to completely eliminate any fear they have of KOing CAP19. This can be further compounded by running multiple partners, however, do so should be a risk, as I agree that we should not be looking at the most commonly seen strong set up sweepers, and thus this would likely mean running Pokemon that, if the partner strategy fails, would be more of a burden than some of their more popular counterparts.

Meh, I think by making a good enough mon, we'll wind up accidentally partnering with a few more sweepers anyway. It just kind of happens in Pokemon, and CAP as a whole - no matter what a mon's 'intended' use is, people will always figure out two or three more uses for it if its good enough. At any rate, perhaps we should aim to both partner up with a mon who can bypass unaware users, as well as one who cannot nessescarily do so but is still very good, so that the CAP user has choice. On the other hand, it is entirely possible to partner with too many mons and wind up being watered down as a result, so let's not go for more then two or three potential partners tops, preferably ones with somewhat shared checks+counters.

For what it's worth, I personally support Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Mega Charizard X as potential partners. All are top-tier sweepers, with their own unique quirks - Mega Gyarados can bypass Unaware mons, Dragonite effectively gets two free turns out of one if you can keep rocks down (thanks to multiscale), and Mega Charizard X can troll burn users.

To add to this, all of Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Gyarados share some common traits, traits that the opponent can take advantage of with a certain group of Pokemon, a group of Pokemon that the CAP can take advantage of. Dragonite and Mega Charizard X are both checked by bulky Ground-types (Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Quagsire, Rhyperior) and physically bulky Tyranitar, while all of those Pokemon have troubles with Azumarill to a certain extend. Also, all of those Pokemon can struggle to beat Slowbro, and Alomomola to an extend (even though Lum Berry Dragonite and Sub Mega Gyarados fuck up Mola). Finally, all those Pokemon hate common scarfers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp.

So yeah, those three Pokemon are certainly the ideal group of Pokemon to use as back up for the CAP, and Pokemon whose common weaknesses we must study, and find a way to cover them with the CAP.

I was contemplating the Mega Gyarados + Gothitelle core and it got me thinking. Most of the time, the logic behind a core is that each member deals with the checks and counters of the others. However, there's obviously more to succeeding than that. I generally agree with trying to help Pokemon that can break past Quagsire and Unaware Clefable, but I think we also need to consider the common teammates that such Pokemon have. I'm bringing this up mostly because I don't want to run into a situation where we try to make CAP 19 do everything for a single teammate archetype at once. Our attempts at trying to create a core out of thin air have not gone as we initially expected, because doing so requires a level of specificity that's extremely difficult to achieve in the process we use to build these Pokemon. We should instead be more aware of existing team structures that already work, and fit CAP 19 into those structures.

So overall, the opinion seems to be in favor of Mega Gyarados and maybe other DDance users besides. But i'd like to see a bit more commentary on this before there's a decision. In particular, some users expressed hesitation about aligning too strongly with any Pokemon in particular. This sounds good, in theory, but I'd like to hear a single viable picture of how we could build a CAP in this method that would effectively and often fulfill the Chansey-Goth scenario. I think we need to build with some specifics in mind to do this effectively.

As such, further penalizing the opponent for not KOing CAP 19 by allowing it to lay down some form of entry hazards seems like a logical option.

I don't know how many times or ways I can say this, so this is the last one. if people keep messing this up im just gonna start ignoring their posts: the CAP isn't trying to commit suicide by cop so a pre-existing Pokemon can sweep. Agile_Turtle has already explained this six ways till Sunday. Just reread his post here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...oncept-assessment.3512956/page-7#post-5635137 and stop making me weep for humanity.

As for the question of team roles, Agile_Turtle presented the idea of a Pokemon that provides a role important to the Pokemon we want to support. This is a good point; in some way or another, we need to make sense on teams with the Pokemon we choose, or else the CAP has failed as there's no reason to use them together. This goes hand-in-hand with what capefeather said about fitting with existing cores. But seeing as we've established that, it's probably best to wait until we pick a partner before we consider this further.

 

[Ununhexium]

I'm so happy my DDnite suggestion has bandwagoned n_n

In actuality though, DDnite would be a good way to go. Not onlyndoes it get a free turn from CAP fainting, but gets another free turn via Multiscale (yeah two DDances n_n)

Re nast plot sweepers: no. Theyae pretty much all bad except for maybe Thundurus which I don't know much about). I wish we could go this route, the success of our CAP is directly related to the viability of or chosen sweeper.

I'll take a look at some Swords Dance sweepers and stuff later. I'd like to see some discussion on them.

 

[nyttyn]

Thus far, it seems most of the recommendations have a few things in common (sorry heal n deal but weather abusers just aren't getting hype):

• They enjoy hazards.
• They do not like Stealth Rocks, as they are all weak to it (except mega gyara, who only gets hit for neutral post mega).
• Physically bulky mons make them cry.
• The oblivious duo (quagsire and clefable) make them cry bigger.
• Thundurus's t-wave makes them cry more.
• Giving them a free switch-in is a bad idea.

What's interesting to note is that a lot of these traits are common traits that many sweepers share. Before I continue, I would note to note that CAP19, in and of itself, should not want to faint. Instead, we should be aiming to let it live be a lose-lose scenario - letting it die grants that precious free turn, which will have to be taken advantage of by typing, but letting it live will allow it to perform its role, which must be influential enough to make the opponent incapable of simply ignoring CAP19. Looking over this list, there seems to be a number of things we can do:

• Defog, which is both general team support and helps our sweepers come in healthy
• Powerful attacks aimed at taking out physically bulky mons/troublesome unaware mons, which can also be used to punch holes in the opponent if they attempt to eat the blow with another mon
• Trapping, which is the only sure-fire way to kill a mon.
• Hazards laying, which is again general team support but helps sweepers nail key KOs.

Out of all of these approaches, and considering the Chan-Goth core mentioned earlier, I think a mon who is designed to partner with a trapper, and by extent partnering with a trapper is our best bet. The threat of a trapper coming in to nail that one mon that keeps another mon from sweeping is a huge dissuasion from fainting CAP19, but at the same time not fainting CAP19 will allow it to perform its job, which in my mind should be one of the three roles above - save, obviously, trapping itself, because that will just encourage the opponent to faint CAP19.


I'll admit this post is kind of crazy laid out because I'm a bit delirious from sickness, but the short of it is that I think we should pair up CAP19 with a trapper(s), as the threat of a trapper coming in to eliminate a mon without being able to do anything about it is very, very dissuading. Partnering with a trapper also leaves CAP19 to be used on many types of teams, because trappers can be tailored to take out/abuse key threats to various team types.

 

[Boss jr.]

I like the idea of pairing it with a trapper.

CAP 19 could then be designed to funnel in a specific type(s) of pokemon to which the trapper counters easily. It's type(s) and ability would have to make only 1-2 options for taking it out actually viable practically forcing that type only.

Dugtrio and/or Gothitelle could pair with it or other options are pokes with access to mean look (although that's not really a common move in competitive play).

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Well that happened ok then

Now, this may be just me (since I have not, after all, been really all that active in the discussion recently) but I cannot help thinking that, while it's great that we now have a direction to go in and all that... there really isn't anything about this hypothetical CAP19, or the direction we're taking it in, that makes it any different to any existing Pokemon. Again, it's possible that I have missed something (apologies if this is the case), but if we take the concept literally, what we are attempting here is simply to make a Pokemon that consistently puts the opponent into a game-ending scenario if knocked out. Except, well, in what situation would this CAP be better at this than any other Pokemon? If the stage is set, even a Sunkern could fulfil the concept under those conditions. Thus the idea is proposed to pair the Pokemon with some exceptional sweeper that can make use of the free turn which the CAP would, in this situation, provide through its death, or in lieu of this, to act as a sort of Perfect Mate-lite in any other situation. This is all very well, but this doesn't make an interesting CAP. It may fulfil the concept, sure, but only a redefined concept to deal with the constraints and limits of the game itself. Picture, then, a CAP19 designed to smash things which Mega Gyarados or Dragonite or whatever it happens to be cannot, which is achieving the concept by, as one weapon among many, being able to consistently set up a situation where to kill it and grant a free switch would end the game there and then, er... again, I may be misunderstanding the intention, in which case feel free to ignore this post, naturally.

Whether or not my fears on the matter are justified, I cannot help thinking that there are avenues to be explored that have not been brought up yet in discussion with regards to this particular approach to this concept - most of which are tangentially related to the above, vis-a-vis "how do we actually make this CAP different from any other good Pokemon in terms of build?". I don't myself have any answers to these questions at present, but I highly suspect that the answers to the questions in Pwnemon's OP can be collectively summed up as "very".

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

That said, unfortunately Sun Abusers usually have a lot of problems with Talonflame, as Brave Bird rips through most Chlorophyll mons... If for some reason pairing with Sub Abusers gains support, CAP19 could be designed to help counter Talonflame, but the fire bird is so common that I'm not honestly sure if trying to partner with Sun Abusers is the best idea.

While half of my previous post talked about some pros regarding Sub Abusers, the other half actually countered against this idea and I ended on the note of supporting the more viable Dragon Dance users. Thought I'd just clear this up.

If we analyze Dragon Dance as a move itself, we can very easily see that that it nets offensive benefits via both physical attack and speed. Scarfers and high speed tier mons are definitely something to watch out for if we're try to turn a lose/lose situation into our favor; if we have a set up sweeper in the back with just nasty plot or swords dance then we would have to rely on priority moves to take out faster threats. We learned last concept, however, that not even Lucario could handle boosting and sweeping too well to start with. The speed boost received from Dragon Dance is, in my opinion, the most important draw, as without it our efforts of "supporting" our sweeper will just go poof if the opponent has a hidden scarfer. I just don't think that status boosters that don't get that speed boost will be as effective in creating the situation of a potential match-ending sweep that we seem to be looking for. Creating situations in which we can get the upper hand with Speed is pretty important.

Hazard removal has been mentioned a lot as a method of supporting Dragon Dancers, as in general they are Stealth Rock weak. Additionally, many Dragon Dancers positively hate paralysis and burns (and there are sadly prankster users that utilize both). Having CAP19 give some sort of deterrent to status users might be a good idea if we actually do take a Dragon Dance route. Of course, the main goal should be creating scenarios where CAP19 is out on the field and deters the opponent from trying to KO it for fear of our Dragon Dancer in the back.

But what if this scenario could also be doable if CAP19 and the Dragon Dancer were reversed in their placement? Say you have a Dragonite out of the field and CAP19 in back. The opponent has a Chansey in front, but a scarfed Mamoswine at half health and a Sableye in back. The opponent predicts the Dragon Dance, but knows that Multiscale will let Dragonite tank the first hit from Mamoswine if he switches in and the potential speed tie is deemed too risky. Instead, the opponent decides to get a switch into Sableye while Dragonite Dragon Dances. But what if CAP19 (in the back still) actually had something to deter Sableye from using Will-O-Wisp in turn (let's say just for pure example guts or magic bounce)? Suddenly, the opponent would have to choose between going for the Will-O-Wisp to more or less guarantee Dragonite's sweep from ending at this time and to have the ability to KO him later (thus the Dragonite will either be switched out and will lose its boosts or it will be burned), or to risk giving CAP19 a free advantage. Granted, I admit this entire scenario revolves around the opponent being deterred to immediately cripple Dragonite for a later KO in the match's future; this example might not deal with immediate issues of fainting, but the gist can be similar to the lose/lose notion and it does affect future KOs in the match. I don't believe this example is perfect in anyway, but the core of it revolves around the shared weakness to status that our Dragon Dancers have. I'm simply saying having some sort of status deterrent that CAP19 could provide might come in handy.

So, in a nutshell, I think Dragon Dancers are a good route because 1) many of them are already viable and 2) Dragon Dance as a boosting move provides speed and prevents some scarfed Pokemon from potentially ending our sweep early. However, in order to maintain our sweeping presence, being able to deal with Will-o-Wisp and Thunder Wave could be a useful role that CAP19 can provide.

 

[Boss jr.]

Well that happened ok then

Now, this may be just me (since I have not, after all, been really all that active in the discussion recently) but I cannot help thinking that, while it's great that we now have a direction to go in and all that... there really isn't anything about this hypothetical CAP19, or the direction we're taking it in, that makes it any different to any existing Pokemon. Again, it's possible that I have missed something (apologies if this is the case), but if we take the concept literally, what we are attempting here is simply to make a Pokemon that consistently puts the opponent into a game-ending scenario if knocked out. Except, well, in what situation would this CAP be better at this than any other Pokemon? If the stage is set, even a Sunkern could fulfil the concept under those conditions. Thus the idea is proposed to pair the Pokemon with some exceptional sweeper that can make use of the free turn which the CAP would, in this situation, provide through its death, or in lieu of this, to act as a sort of Perfect Mate-lite in any other situation. This is all very well, but this doesn't make an interesting CAP. It may fulfil the concept, sure, but only a redefined concept to deal with the constraints and limits of the game itself. Picture, then, a CAP19 designed to smash things which Mega Gyarados or Dragonite or whatever it happens to be cannot, which is achieving the concept by, as one weapon among many, being able to consistently set up a situation where to kill it and grant a free switch would end the game there and then, er... again, I may be misunderstanding the intention, in which case feel free to ignore this post, naturally.

Whether or not my fears on the matter are justified, I cannot help thinking that there are avenues to be explored that have not been brought up yet in discussion with regards to this particular approach to this concept - most of which are tangentially related to the above, vis-a-vis "how do we actually make this CAP different from any other good Pokemon in terms of build?". I don't myself have any answers to these questions at present, but I highly suspect that the answers to the questions in Pwnemon's OP can be collectively summed up as "very".

This is exactly why I think pairing CAP 19 with a trapper would be more interesting than pairing it with something like a straight forward sweeper, especially something that can set up just fine on it's own anyway like the Dragon Dancers. The principle as far as I can gather for the CAP project is to explore niches that are either unexplored or under explored.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I like the idea of pairing it with a trapper.

CAP 19 could then be designed to funnel in a specific type(s) of pokemon to which the trapper counters easily. It's type(s) and ability would have to make only 1-2 options for taking it out actually viable practically forcing that type only.

Dugtrio and/or Gothitelle could pair with it or other options are pokes with access to mean look (although that's not really a common move in competitive play).

Well I'm not really sure on this, while it does give us a better idea on what we should be supporting it will also have us supporting pokes who aren't exactly the most viable pokemon out there

 

[GoldNinja]

Well I'm not really sure on this, while it does give us a better idea on what we should be supporting it will also have us supporting pokes who aren't exactly the most viable pokemon out there

Indeed. While a trapper pair sounds intriguing, the best ones available are Gothitelle and Dugtrio, which really says something. Focusing on hazard removal seems like an important thing to go off of for now, unless there is an even bigger DD support issue that I'm not thinking of.

 

[Boss jr.]

Indeed. While a trapper pair sounds intriguing, the best ones available are Gothitelle and Dugtrio, which really says something. Focusing on hazard removal seems like an important thing to go off of for now, unless there is an even bigger DD support issue that I'm not thinking of.

But that also gives CAP 19 something to hitch onto by making these two (or mean lookers) more threatening. Is there something in the competitive meta game that either of them can check easily while taking advantage of the set up opportunity?

Besides, do we really need to be supporting pokemon that don't really need the support? Does the meta game really benefit from making already threatening pokemon even more dangerous? This could open up the door for making trappers a viable option by giving them that extra nudge... *shrugs*

 

[aim]

I feel like pairing CAP 19 with a trapper like Gothitelle or TTar would be pretty amazing as it opens walls in your opponents defensive cores. This would mean you have to play smart about revenge killing CAP 19 and would force a lot of doubles. CAP 19 should be an offensive bait as well as a pokemon that pressures your opponent something like Specs Keldeo which forces in Lati twins to get pursuit trapped by TTar, and punches through teams when the afformentioned pokemon has been trapped.

 

[Stratos]

nyttyn definitely has an idea worth considering. I did my own private data-gathering, asking some great OU players who arent interested in CAP their thoughts on the subject. I've got the logs below:

VS MCMEGHAN

13:12 Pwnemon: hey mcmeghan
13:12 Pwnemon: are you still
13:12 Pwnemon: in the hip and boppin with xy ou
13:12 McMeghan: i have to man
13:13 McMeghan: cant stand feeling behind
13:13 Pwnemon: smex
13:13 Pwnemon: i have a question for u
13:13 Pwnemon: you know those scenarios where its like "i want to ko x with y, but if i do, z will take the free turn and end the game"
13:14 Pwnemon: the new cap is about making the x mon in those scenarios and forcing them as often as possible and i was wondering what z mon(s) would be best to work it around?
13:15 McMeghan: give an example
13:15 McMeghan: of what you're looking for
13:15 Pwnemon: so like
13:15 McMeghan: i understood your example
13:15 McMeghan: but i don't rly get what you're asking
13:15 Pwnemon: if i ko his ferrothorn with my scarftran he'll set up zard x and rape me
13:15 Pwnemon: we're making a cap that's the ferrothorn
13:16 Pwnemon: what pokemon would be our best "zard x"
13:16 Pwnemon: which can force those scenarios in the most situations
13:16 Pwnemon: so like not, "pack clefable and beat cap19 teams" or smth
13:16 McMeghan: or
13:16 McMeghan: a cap
13:16 McMeghan: i just understood
13:16 McMeghan: what you meant by a cap lol
13:16 Pwnemon: oh lol
13:17 McMeghan: so
13:17 McMeghan: you want a pokemon
13:17 McMeghan: that is extremely dangerous
13:17 McMeghan: when it comes after smth died?
13:17 Pwnemon: yea
13:17 McMeghan: well
13:17 Pwnemon: and preferably not supes easy to counterteam
13:17 McMeghan: Volcarona in BW was the perfect example of what you're describing
13:18 McMeghan: it would win a ton of games by itself
13:18 McMeghan: and easiest setup possibilities were on kills
13:18 Pwnemon: yea
13:18 Pwnemon: if only this was bw this would b an easy decision rofl
13:18 Pwnemon: but yeah we were thinking maybe mgyara... but we really can't decide so i was asking every good ou player i know their opinion
13:19 McMeghan: Ok ok
13:20 McMeghan: Scolipede/Smeargle -> Espeon
13:20 McMeghan: huehueeeee
13:20 Pwnemon: why dont you go hue off a bridge
13:21 McMeghan: hmmm
13:21 McMeghan: you see
13:21 McMeghan: it's honestly difficult to think of an example in XY
13:21 McMeghan: because every setuper gets "revenge killed" by thundurus lol
13:21 McMeghan: and everyone and their mother runs it for that reason
13:22 Pwnemon: double dance landorus, hue
13:22 McMeghan: good coverage alert
13:22 McMeghan: also
13:22 McMeghan: setuppers are actually
13:22 McMeghan: pretty rare nowadays due to them usually being unable to break through Quag and/or Clef
13:22 McMeghan: add prankster t-wave
13:22 McMeghan: and you have the reason why they're not common
13:23 McMeghan: Mega-Gyarados is probably the closest thing you're thinking of
13:23 McMeghan: but it needs a Healing Wisher/Heal Bell support
13:23 McMeghan: to sweep twice when thund is dead
13:23 Pwnemon: so a typical mega gyara team would
13:23 Pwnemon: set up, kill thund
13:23 Pwnemon: switch out
13:23 Pwnemon: heal
13:23 McMeghan: Mega Pinsir also fits the bill
13:23 Pwnemon: set up again, win?
13:24 McMeghan: but struggles even more with thund
13:24 McMeghan: thats how masterclass RMT played
13:24 McMeghan: defensive core with lot of residual damages
13:24 McMeghan: + mega gyara
13:24 McMeghan: set up when you can, if you get RK'd, Heal Bell and set up again
13:24 McMeghan: pwnemon
13:24 McMeghan: Mega Tyranitar is also one scary late game sweeper
13:25 McMeghan: basically
13:25 Pwnemon: can it bust up the unawares?
13:25 McMeghan: everything that can boost speed + atk/spatk
13:25 McMeghan: not rly lol
13:25 McMeghan: you need smth with dragon dance/shift gear/quiever dance
13:25 McMeghan: OR
13:26 McMeghan: speed boost + swords dance/tail glow/nasty plot/belly drum
13:26 McMeghan: (since its a CAP, you can basically do w/e you want sooo)
13:26 Pwnemon: n
13:26 Fagtron: mcmeghan how about mons with powerful priority
13:26 Fagtron: like sd mega pinsir
13:26 McMeghan: lol
13:26 Pwnemon: the cap's not the sweeper
13:26 Pwnemon: its the thing
13:26 Pwnemon: that stays alive
13:26 Pwnemon: because u dont want to unleash the sweeper
13:26 McMeghan: they're great, dont get me wrong but
13:26 McMeghan: they're all slower than thund
13:26 McMeghan: so they get twaved anyway
13:27 McMeghan: did you get some answers out this pwne?
13:27 McMeghan: do i have to dig up more? :o
13:27 Pwnemon: yeah
13:28 Pwnemon: mostly what i got was
13:28 Pwnemon: "youre probably just screwed rofl"
13:28 McMeghan: speed + offensive stats
13:28 McMeghan: lol just saying but
13:28 McMeghan: if you ask me
13:28 McMeghan: the concept revolves around smth that
13:28 McMeghan: 1) must setup with speed/offense
13:28 Pwnemon: yeah i agree there
13:28 McMeghan: 2) have kind of crappy typing
13:28 Pwnemon: thats why we shot straight to DD
13:28 McMeghan: if it'd have a good typing
13:29 Pwnemon: it wouldnt need a sacrifice
13:29 McMeghan: it wouldnt need to come on smth after a sacrifice
13:29 Pwnemon: thanks for the advice
13:48 McMeghan: well pwne
13:48 McMeghan: there is also the possiblity
13:48 McMeghan: of your pokemon being a weather summoner
13:48 Pwnemon: that discourages knocking it out?
13:48 McMeghan: late game you tipycally dont want to kill them on their first turn in the game
13:49 Fagtron: wait what
13:49 Fagtron: late game you don't want to kill them on the first turn
13:49 Fagtron: how does that make sense ?_?
13:49 McMeghan: because you have to deal with more powerful threats for 5-8 turns
13:49 McMeghan: i mean
13:49 Pwnemon: oh
13:49 Pwnemon: makes sense
13:49 Pwnemon: a kinda
13:49 McMeghan: on Their First turn
13:49 Fagtron: yea ic what u mean
13:49 Pwnemon: ninetalesy poke
13:49 Pwnemon: but
13:49 Pwnemon: not that ninetalesy
13:49 McMeghan: i mean, in BW
13:49 Pwnemon: because then it sucks
13:49 McMeghan: sacking ninetanles
13:50 McMeghan: and going to town with volc who'd lose his water weakness
13:50 McMeghan: was a thing
13:50 Fagtron: guess same goes for ttar + exca this gen
13:50 Fagtron: I've seen a lot of replays
13:51 Fagtron: where saccing ttar with a healthy sand rush exca just wins you the game
13:51 McMeghan: y
13:51 Pwnemon: ah i gotcha
13:51 Pwnemon: so another option would b
13:51 Pwnemon: exca
13:52 Pwnemon: that actually seems p good
13:52 Pwnemon: it loses to quag
13:52 Pwnemon: but beats clef n thund
13:52 Pwnemon: !!
13:52 McMeghan: y!
13:54 Arcticblast: that's a cool idea
13:54 McMeghan: i think the major problem of this
13:54 Pwnemon: lol
13:54 Pwnemon: its bad
13:54 Pwnemon: that exca is looking like the best option
13:54 McMeghan: would be that pokemon with weather ability
13:54 McMeghan: are instantly strong
13:54 Pwnemon: because whoevers ability leader
13:54 Pwnemon: would hate me rofl
13:54 McMeghan: if you make smth better than ninetales/politoed, they will be bigs part of the metagame without a doubt
13:55 Pwnemon: yea
13:55 McMeghan: too useful outside of the CAP idea
13:55 Pwnemon: well
13:55 McMeghan: and if you want another sand summoner
13:55 Pwnemon: i dont think
13:55 Pwnemon: im worried about that
13:55 Pwnemon: im mostly worried
13:55 Pwnemon: bc exca sweep and dont let the cap get smashed
13:55 McMeghan: you'll struggle to find smth worth running over hippo or ttar
13:55 Pwnemon: are kinda

VS MATTL

13:03 Pwnemon: you know those scenarios where its like "i want to ko x with y, but if i do, z will take the free turn and end the game"
13:05 Pwnemon: the new cap is about making the x mon in those scenarios and i was wondering what z mon(s) would be best to work it around?
13:05 MattL: like if you have a scarftran and you need to use earth power to KO something, but your opp has a DD dragonite in the back that can sweep you if you do?
13:05 Pwnemon: yea
13:06 MattL: ahhhh that's a cool idea, thanks
13:06 MattL: idk why I said thanks lol
13:06 MattL: anyway uhhhh
13:08 MattL: there are lots of things that could work
13:08 MattL: zard x, gyara
13:08 Pwnemon: yea those are the main two we were looking at as well
13:09 Pwnemon: cause we didnt want it to just be "bring clefable and not have to worry"
13:09 MattL: if you wanna try something a little different you could even do like sub mmaw
13:12 Pwnemon: all right thanks for the suggestions!
13:12 MattL: np, good luck with the cap

VS TIGRES

14:11 Pwnemon: you know those scenarios where its like "i want to ko x with y, but if i do, z will take the free turn and end the game?” the new cap is about making the x mon in those scenarios and forcing them as often as possible and i was wondering what z mon(s) would be best to work it around
14:13 Valentine: r u sure you just dont want
14:13 Valentine: new ou teams
14:13 Pwnemon: ok let me put ti this way
14:13 Pwnemon: what is
14:13 Pwnemon: a good game ender in xy
14:13 Pwnemon: if u give it a free turn
14:13 noro: turning ur ds off
14:13 Valentine: ez
14:13 noro: ddos
14:13 Valentine: noro got em all
14:14 noro: x'ing out
14:14 noro: all viable
14:14 Pwnemon: ;______________;
14:14 Valentine: click the x
14:14 Pwnemon: u so meen
14:14 noro: ddos was used a lot during tourneys once upon a time
14:14 Pwnemon: mcmeghan gave me like 40 mins worth of help
14:14 Valentine: nah but
14:14 Valentine: RP Lando
14:14 Valentine: BD Azu
14:14 Valentine: indeed it was
14:14 Pwnemon: yea kd24 tour champion
14:15 noro: lol
14:15 Valentine: SD Scizor
14:15 Valentine: DD Zard X
14:16 Bedschibaer: just use the sebixxl method and bring crocune
14:16 Valentine: crocune is real annoying to play against
14:17 Bedschibaer: crocune is good as hell at the moment because people usually only have like 1 thing that instantly breaks it
14:17 Bedschibaer: otherwise you have to force it to rest and well
14:17 Bedschibaer: hope for rolls
14:17 Pwnemon: so if it gets a cm up free its hard to handle?
14:17 Pwnemon: or does it have to get multiple cms before that happens
14:18 Bedschibaer: usually it's eliminate (insert thing that breaks it here) and crocune can do huge work
14:18 Bedschibaer: thundurus is a bitch but that gets worn down eventually
14:19 Bedschibaer: and instant hard special hitters like mega garde, everything else can't come in without being risked being burned. if you catch something like a kyurem with a burn early it's setup fodder at its finest

I got a lot of suggestions: DD Tar, DD Gyara, Exca, CroCune, BD Azu, DD Zard, SD Scizor, RP Lando, Sub MMaw. But perhaps the most important advice i got was the rest of the log with McMeghan—I would highly recommend you read it as this guy really knows his stuff.

Basically, the big takeaway is that the metagame is pretty inhospitable to 6-0 sweeps as it stands, between Thundurus, Clefable, Quagsire, and more. The more I talked about what pokemon to sweep with, the more discouraged I got about the possibility to sweep with any of them. Which is why I like nyttyn's idea of partnering with a trapper, and when I talked to aim about it, i liked it even more. There's a lot of ways to go with trapping, but the main point with all is using trappers to threaten to ruin defensive cores to set up a chain reaction of destruction. It's a lot harder to counterteam trapping than it is a specific sweeper. The question then would become, what do we want to bait? (I'm not saying we have to go for a trapper if people still want to work with MGyara, but it's the option I'd support)

 

[Tadasuke]

Mega Gyara, RP Lando, and Mawile seem like the most viable options again. I also completely agree that we need to not base this project around supporting a shit poke, so we need to be extremely careful when choosing the partner for 19.

 

[Deck Knight]

First, I want to thank Pwnemon for thinking outside the box with his research.

From what I can synthesize, rather than focus on the generic problems with the fact any Pokemon we choose will have something it's weak against, we ought to concern ourselves with the three specific Pokemon mentioned: Quagsire, Clefable, and Thundurus. While any set-up sweeper we choose to partner with will have their own separate counters, I think crafting a Pokemon capable of threatening these three Pokemon will go a long way to helping us out by enabling a multitude of sweepers that have problems with these specific entities. It might end up like Voodoom where we pick Togekiss and get Zapdos, but we'll at least have a clear goal of enabling a set-up sweeper of some kind.

From these, I think the biggest threat is Thundurus, which can be addressed a few ways: The first is to choose a sweeper immune to Thunder Wave. The second is to be able to Trap Thundurus, which unfortunately requires Shadow Tag because Thundy is immune to Arena Trap. Even if we did go that route though, Thundurus could start packing Shed Shell - this would cut its power, but likely make it more apt to choose Prankster Thunder Wave for the additional utility. The third way is to build a Pokemon that performs the dual role of supporting our sweeper and countering Thundurus.

After Thundurus the secondary threat is Clefable, which is a much more well-rounded Unaware Pokemon than Quagsire, also has Thunder Wave to slow a sweep, and doesn't have a glaring 4x weakness to anything.

As such I think good partner Pokemon would be Landorus, Excadrill, Mega-Garchomp, Mega-Gyarados, and Offensive SD Mega-Scizor. What these Pokemon have in common is the ability to use very minor support to enable setup, and built-in defenses against sweep stopping. Of these, 4 our of 5 are neutral or positively-effected by Sand support, so even if CAP becomes cannon fodder for a weather set-up, it can still fulfill its role. Most of them are themselves immune to Thunder Wave, and Gyarados' Mold Breaker means a stat-up against a sufficiently weakened Clefable will allow it to clean up (whereas Quagsire doesn't threaten M-Gyara much directly. Jolly M-Garchomp's EQ in Sand only fails to 2HKO if it rolls min damage, so prior damage or merely average luck will let it break through.) The only real downside to each of these sweepers is they hate Scald burns from Quagsire, but Scald is a lot more luck-based than Thunder Wave, and if CAP can provide that support after they've already chipped into it, it will still fulfill its role.

Additionally if we craft CAP to help these sweepers, Mega-Charizard-X will also benefit when the inevitable burn-based counterteaming occurs, as Thundurus and Clefable are more significant checks to it than Quagsire is. Honestly, if CAP exchanges a reduction in Thundurus and Clefable for more Quagsire viability, sweepers in general will be better off by removing the sweep checks that utilize paralysis.

I don't think it's possible to choose just one partner any more - XY is too varied. Rather, focusing on the checks that act like glue in countersweeping seems like a better idea, while keeping sweepers with specific qualities in mind for partners.

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

First, I want to thank Pwnemon for thinking outside the box with his research.

From what I can synthesize, rather than focus on the generic problems with the fact any Pokemon we choose will have something it's weak against, we ought to concern ourselves with the three specific Pokemon mentioned: Quagsire, Clefable, and Thundurus. While any set-up sweeper we choose to partner with will have their own separate counters, I think crafting a Pokemon capable of threatening these three Pokemon will go a long way to helping us out by enabling a multitude of sweepers that have problems with these specific entities. It might end up like Voodoom where we pick Togekiss and get Zapdos, but we'll at least have a clear goal of enabling a set-up sweeper of some kind.

From these, I think the biggest threat is Thundurus, which can be addressed a few ways: The first is to choose a sweeper immune to Thunder Wave. The second is to be able to Trap Thundurus, which unfortunately requires Shadow Tag because Thundy is immune to Arena Trap. Even if we did go that route though, Thundurus could start packing Shed Shell - this would cut its power, but likely make it more apt to choose Prankster Thunder Wave for the additional utility. The third way is to build a Pokemon that performs the dual role of supporting our sweeper and countering Thundurus.

After Thundurus the secondary threat is Clefable, which is a much more well-rounded Unaware Pokemon than Quagsire, also has Thunder Wave to slow a sweep, and doesn't have a glaring 4x weakness to anything.

As such I think good partner Pokemon would be Landorus, Excadrill, Mega-Garchomp, Mega-Gyarados, and Offensive SD Mega-Scizor. What these Pokemon have in common is the ability to use very minor support to enable setup, and built-in defenses against sweep stopping. Of these, 4 our of 5 are neutral or positively-effected by Sand support, so even if CAP becomes cannon fodder for a weather set-up, it can still fulfill its role. Most of them are themselves immune to Thunder Wave, and Gyarados' Mold Breaker means a stat-up against a sufficiently weakened Clefable will allow it to clean up (whereas Quagsire doesn't threaten M-Gyara much directly. Jolly M-Garchomp's EQ in Sand only fails to 2HKO if it rolls min damage, so prior damage or merely average luck will let it break through.) The only real downside to each of these sweepers is they hate Scald burns from Quagsire, but Scald is a lot more luck-based than Thunder Wave, and if CAP can provide that support after they've already chipped into it, it will still fulfill its role.

Additionally if we craft CAP to help these sweepers, Mega-Charizard-X will also benefit when the inevitable burn-based counterteaming occurs, as Thundurus and Clefable are more significant checks to it than Quagsire is. Honestly, if CAP exchanges a reduction in Thundurus and Clefable for more Quagsire viability, sweepers in general will be better off by removing the sweep checks that utilize paralysis.

I don't think it's possible to choose just one partner any more - XY is too varied. Rather, focusing on the checks that act like glue in countersweeping seems like a better idea, while keeping sweepers with specific qualities in mind for partners.

While I think there is value in this direction, the immediate problem is that such a CAP would hardly be a Pokemon that the opponent didn't want to KO; we'd certainly be making a valuable partner for setup sweepers in general, but that's not the concept CAP 19 is meant to be based around. It genuinely does sound like CAP 19 has to do something about Thundurus, Clefable and Quagsire (T/C/Q) if it is to make setup more viable; doing this while sticking to the concept is going to be a challenge; I think that, based on the discussion thus far, pairing with a trapper (and possibly a sweeper who benefits from the Pokemon removed by the trap) offers the greatest possibility of success. However, there is one possible avenue that we could explore if CAP 19 is to be paired with a sweeper - CAP 19 could also be a sweeper that will generally encourage T/C/Q switch-ins. It would be threatened by T/C/Q, potentially KO'd (or at least crippled, to take a loose interpretation of the concept), but at the cost of crippling T/C/Q in return. We would create our lose-lose situation - if the opponent does not use T/C/Q to shut down CAP 19, their team would be threatened by a sweep from CAP 19. If the opponent does use T/C/Q to respond to CAP 19, it will indeed by eliminated from any subsequent use in the game (by KO or cripple), but T/C/Q would be left unable to counter the intended sweep partners. I'm not entirely sure how to achieve this nor whether it's the best direction to take the project, hence having somewhat of a preference towards pairing CAP 19 with a trapper, but if we want CAP 19 to do something about T/C/Q while still fulfilling the concept, I think it's probably the best option available.