Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

A- ----> B+

Mandibuzz was amazing back when Aegislash was a thing and I found myself using it frequently to a lot of success, but the bulky vulture has certainly lost one of its best niche's in its absence and thus it's having a harder time standing out from the crowd than it used to. On the other hand, losing Mawile was a big plus for it, which has given Mandi 1 less threatening counter, and it also fares pretty well against a lot of sand offense members which has seen a big increase in popularity. B+ is good.

I agree about Chansey staying, but Mandibuzz could stay in A- too. Yes Aegislash is gone, but so is Mega Mawile which was a big threat to Mandibuzz so it kind of evens out in that regard. Mandibuzz is one of the only good Defoggers besides the Lati's, Scizor and Skarmory which is a pretty significant niche. On top of that, it's a tank with 110/105/95 defenses so it can Defog multiple times per match unlike Latias who's forced to run Healing Wish just to avoid Pursuit T-tar and such (although Latios with Roost is getting more common it seems). It also deals with a pretty good amount of threats: you check Dragon Dance Zard-X, Mega Gyarados, Landorus-T, Excadrill, CB/SD Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Garchomp, SD Mega Scizor... and you shut down stuff like Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Taunt and Defog. And that's just for a support mon/wall. It should stay A-.

 

[RotomPoison]

Ok time to do this again

Staraptor B > B+

This thing got so much better with Aegislash and Mega Mawile leaving. Just Banded Brave Bird/Double Edge/Close Combat/U-turn and possibly Quick Attack destroys so much stuff that you literally can't find a good switch in that isn't 2HKOd. You can revenge it easily sure but does that matter when you can just switch? Pursuit Bisharp takes a ton from either STAB on the switch and if you think they'll switch to it just U-turn out anyway. Also Tyranitar and Bisharp are easily OHKOd by Close Combat so they're not switching in easily even if they didn't take a ton from its STABs. This thing also works well on Sticky Web because outside of Burd and the Latis it outspeeds everything that lacks priority now. CB (or I guess you can run Scarf but don't) Raptor is just an amazing Pokemon that needs to move up. Also just use Magnezone with this.

Espeon C+ > C or C-

It's garbage after the BP nerf and it doesn't even set screens that well, can it go away please

Klefki C+ > B-

Ok stats and the best defensive typing in the game along with Spikes, screens, TWave, and the ability to break Subs with Foul Play or Play Rough so you can't set up on it that easily. Sure it's complete Landorus bait but it's not a wall, it's used for utility, so that's not a big deal, it can set up Light Screen then die, to the point it's done its job

Porygon2 C > C+

Someone made an excellent post on how good Trace is in the V2 thread, aside from that does this thing ever die if it doesn't take a CC/Focus Blast/Toxic/Knock Off

Salamence D > C

ScarfMence with Moxie is a decent late game cleaner. It may seem outclassed by Charizard X, but it has the ability to go mixed, hold a Scarf, or really any other item, and that sets it apart somewhat from other Dragon-types.

Zygarde D > C

Again someone made an excellent post on SubCoil, this thing shouldn't be in the same rank as garbage like Granbull, Seismitoad, and Empoleon.

Staraptor B > B+
Espeon C+ > C or C-
Keys C+ > B-
P2 C > C+
Salamence D > C
Zygarde D > C

 

[Jaguar360]

This is my first time posting in this thread, so if I missed something, I apologize in advance, but I wanted to comment on hawlucha, as I have recently started using it, and couldn't be more impressed. I think it absolutely deserves a slot in B rank. If I read correctly:

Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

This describes hawlucha perfectly imo. He needs support to get past certain threats that can beat him basically every time, but once those are gone he can easily sweep. The biggest obstacle hawl faces is priority, especially birdspam. Talonflame and mega-pinsir can both make mincemeat out of hawl before he has the chance to do anything, and hawl is also weak to ice shard, another common priority move. However, these threats aren't all THAT hard to contain, as plenty of pokemon counter birdspam easily, such as tyranitar, mega-manectric, and rotom-W, to name a few. Plus, fighting and flying STABs are two of the most powerful in the game, and hawlucha has access to very powerful moves in each to abuse, even with his lower than average attack stat, hitting with a base 130 move is still gonna hurt, especially after a swords dance. And if hawl can get off a swords dance AND unburden boost, it's pretty much GG right there, as very little can hope to stop him at that point. Hawl is a great choice for breaking through some of the more annoying stallmons, as well, as I will often send him in to deal with gliscor or chansey, both of which often underestimate what hawl is about to unleash on them. Basically the only thing either of them can do to hawl is poison him, which he won't really care about, as he'll SD on the turn they try, then sky attack to get his unburden boost, and finish with either acrobatics or high jump kick, depending on the situation. Even the most physically defensive gliscor won't be able to survive a +2 sky attack AND acrobatics back to back, toxic healing behind a protect/sub or not.

Just to back that up: +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 244-288 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
and then: +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 193-228 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
and there you go, a physically defensive titan overcome by a pokemon whose low attack makes people underestimate it. Irony, thy name is hawlucha. Now with that said, hawl could potentially get into trouble against a gliscor with protect AND subs, as it'll take a LONG time to break through and get the kill on him, but those aren't too common. Usually the gliscor i see run a set like protect/toxic/knock off/earthquake or something similar. And since hawl resists EQ, and knock off would only benefit it by activating unburden, gliscor's only real option is to toxic/protect stall, and it'd be dead long before that killed hawl. I've had this exact scenario play out before, and my hawl was able to kill gliscor AND 3 more pokes behind it before dying to toxic poison.

In addition to all that, hawlucha is one of the few flying types that take neutral damage from stealth rocks, and as a flying type is immune to spikes/toxic spikes/sticky web, so he doesn't fear much from entry hazards, which are one of the leading factors to consider when adding pokemon to your team.

So in summary, I think hawl has the tools necessary to justify a slot in B rank, as it can really put the hurt on a lot of the metagame, even physically bulky threats that would ordinarily be a hassle for a pokemon with low attack.

Just going to say that SubSD doesn't even need Sky Attack to destroy Gliscor since Hawlucha is completely walled by Hawlucha normally. Hawlucha sweeps much more often now without Aeigislash in the way and should definitely rise to B. SubSD Hawlucha just needs its counters/checks weakened (Zapdos, Thundurus-I, etc.) and it needs to have its Sub up for any team that has crippling priority like Thundurus-I's T-Wave and Talonflame. With Aeigislash no longer here to prevent Hawlucha from coming into battle, the support that Hawlucha needs to sweep is often worth it because it is just so good at sweeping now. C+ --> B

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Hawlucha: C+ ---> B-
Omastar: C+ ---> B-
Empoleon: D ---> C-
Goodra: C ---> C+
Haxorus: D ---> C-
Jirachi: C ---> B
Doublade: C- ---> C
Forretress: Stays Unranked
Froslass: D ---> C-
Azelf: C+ ---> B-
Blastoise (Mega): C+ ---> C
Rotom-H: C+ ---> C
Volcarona: C+ ---> C
Moltres: D ---> Unranked
Smeargle: Stays in C+
Mandibuzz: A- ---> B+
Scolipede: B+ ---> B
Whimsicott: Unranked ---> D

Only going to talk about Jirachi rising so high, and Mandibuzz, Smeargle, Whimsicott, and Scolipede that haven't been talked as much as others.

Jirachi rose to B because it is on par with the rest of Pokemon there, and people have finally started to realize that with its second biggest counter gone (Aegislash), Jirachi is plenty viable and versatile. Wish + Toxic / T-Wave / Body Slam, SubToxic with Iron Head and Fire Punch, and SR + U-turn are all good sets that check a multitude of dangerous Pokemon (Latios, Latias, Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, Greninja, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl) and provide ample of team support and offensive presence to not be easy to take advantage of.

Scolipede dropped to B because its Baton Pass set is not as good as it used to be, because of bigger competition with Geomancy Smeargle, now that you can only have one Baton Pass user on each team.

Smeargle stays in C+ alongside Espeon because they are the face of Baton Pass teams in OU, and with some screens support they can be a really dangerous combination to face.

Whimsicott goes in D because Prankster Memento and Tailwind are great for setting up sweepers, while priority Encore and Stun Spore give some insurance against opposing sweepers, giving to Whimsicott a little niche on offensive teams.

Finally, Mandibuzz dropped to B+ because of bigger competition for anti-hazard supporters with Starmie getting more and more viable, and inability to deal with popular offensive threats that can take advantage of Mandibuzz, such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Terrakion.


Here is the next batch of Pokemon to discuss:

Chansey: A- ---> B+
Skarmory: A- ---> B+
Slowbro: A- ---> A
Manaphy: B+ ---> A-
Mega Aerodactyl: B+ ---> A-
Mega Alakazam: B+ ---> A-
Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-
Hydreigon: C+ ---> C
Cresselia: C+ ---> B-
Thundurus-T: C+ ---> C
Jellicent: Unranked ---> D / C-

I know that some of them have already been discussed, but i want to see more arguments about them as most of them were somewhat controversial or lacked good arguments to back up either a rise or a drop.

 

[Albacore]

Before the Aegi+Mawile bans, Skarmory used to be on pretty much every stall team, but in the current metagame, I personally find it a lot harder to justify using it over other Pokemon that can more-or-less fills the same roles as it on stall such as Landorus-T (better answer to MHera given that it can pivot to something offensive), Ferrothorn (walls just as many things and sports more utility, can also harass its swicthins with Leech Seed), Mega-Scizor (can act as a neat win condition+deals with MGarde), and even more obscure stuff such as Jirachi, Doublade, and Bronzong (all 3 of which are decent answers to Pinsir that don't auto-lose to Magnezone, and also beat MGarde).
Skarmory, much like Chansey, is extremely passive, maybe even more so than the blob since its only offensive move is Counter which obviously doesn't work on swicthins. It really suffers from, not just the rise of the stallbreakers that it really wish it could actually switch into, but also the rise of Magnesir (and yeah, I guess you can run Shed Shell, but Skarm is so prone to getting knocked off you can bet that Shed Shell will no longer be there by the time Pinsir shows up).

Oh, another thing : it was pretty much uncontested at its of role hazard remover for stall teams, with the exception of maybe Mandibuzz and Zapdos (who were nowhere near as common on stall as it is) but now, it suffers major competition from Starmie which I honestly find much better on defensive teams overall. Even without that factor I would've argued for Skarmory to drop to B+, but thinking about it, even that may be too high, I honestly don't see it as being on par with Starmie, Tornadus-T (who is actually pretty good on stall atm given that it can beat Medicham, Heracross, and Pinsir 1v1) or even Alomomola. Skarmory is just not a particularly good Pokemon in this metagame.

Skarmory for B+/B

 

[alexwolf]

Added Jellicent on the Pokemon to discuss list, because of this post:

I would actually like to nominate Jellicent for C/C+. After this metagame shift, Ghost and Dark type attacks are much less that it previously did. But more importantly, there is a huge rise in the threats that Jellicent beat. In a metagame dominated by sand, Jellicent beats a lot of common stuff on sand teams if played well. Support Ttar only hits for 27 - 32.2% with a burned Crunch, Ferrothorn without Power Whip loses to the combination of Taunt and burns, Keldeo get hard countered unless it has Specs HP Electric, Excadril and Landorus-T don't like getting WoWed after their first hit, and after being burned you lose the ability to 2HKO.

On defensive teams, Jellicent fares really well against the Medicham and Heracross, both of which failing to 2HKO Jellicent reliably and getting WoWed in return. Cursed Body is a really handy ability to screw with Heracross, who has a 83.193% chance of getting his Rock Blast disabled (which is higher than the chance Stone Edge hits). Against other common stuff like Clefable and Suicune that screw with stall, Jellicent has a handy access to Taunt to shut down their set up and recovery. With Water Absorb, Jellicent makes a perfect counter for CroCune. Access to WoW+Taunt+Recover also meant it can serve as a makeshift Mew to break down other stall teams with ease.

Other than said niches, Jellicent is one of the few spinblockers that can block standard Starmie (since standard uses Psyshock > Tbolt). Burned AV Azumarill can barely 4HKO. Gyarados find it decently hard to get past Jellicent without being crippled in one way or another. Jellicent can even survive the 2HKO from Lati@s with zero investment. Walling a big part of rain offense is also really cool to have.

 

[Vengeance417]

I agree with Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam rising to A-. Their speed tiers allow them to run Adamant and Modest, respectively, since even at those natures, only fast scarf mons, jolly and timid versions of themselves and priority outspeed them. This allows them to use offensively-beneficial natures for more power. They also have really high attacking stats with very good move pools to complement them.

 

[Srn]

Added Jellicent on the Pokemon to discuss list, because of this post:

Wait that post mentionted jellicent switching into mega medicham or something?
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Jellicent: 235-277 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Huh?

Other than that tho jelli seems alrite, i wouldn't mind putting it up to C for now. That whole cursed body crap with mega heracross's rock blast is especially cool.

 

[escarlata]

Wait that post mentionted jellicent switching into mega medicham or something?
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Jellicent: 235-277 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Huh?

Other than that tho jelli seems alrite, i wouldn't mind putting it up to C for now. That whole cursed body crap with mega heracross's rock blast is especially cool.

I know you got the spread from the calcs, but 88 Spe is for speedcreeping CBTtar and 0 Spe Bisharp which nobody runs. 44 is enough for CB Scizor.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 204-240 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryFactoring in accuracy of ZHB, Medicham only has about slightly more than 60% chance to 2HKO. Psycho Cut fails to get the 2HKO at all. For the record, I didn't write it can switch into Medicham, just said it cannot 2HKO reliably.

Alternatively if regular Scizor is not relevant enough, you only need 12 Spe for 0 Spe TTar to take ZHB better if you wish.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Jellicent: 196-232 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
> About 40% factoring accuracy

Not to mention the presence of a ghost type means Medicham cannot spam HJK as liberally, and if Jellicent comes in on a predicted Ice/Fire Punch, Cham pretty much has to switch out. Not a counter, but a viable check.

 

[dadoux]

Chansey: A- ---> B+

The metagame is getting pretty physical, even special mons like Landorus, Gengar and Gardevoir can deal with it now. Bisharp is also a pain in the ass for him, B+ is good.

Skarmory: A- ---> B+

Skarmory is not as cool as he was before, it's easier to deal with with the steel nerf / defog and the fact that you have a bit of a 4MSS if you don't have, but it's still a pretty good mon, B+ is fine imo.

Slowbro: A- ---> A

Idk about putting slowbro that high, it's really a "i can't deal with this mon so i use it" type of mon and it's pretty much stall-only, it's great at what it does but it's not an all-around beast that can stall the whole metagame or be used in every team. A- is really high in itself.

Manaphy: B+ ---> A-

Really good against balanced teams and maybe even stall but a bit weak against heavy offense, i don't know where to rank that one, manaphy's utility is based around match-up so i wouldn't rank it really high, even if it's an enormous threat to some teams

Mega Aerodactyl: B+ ---> A-

Annoying 4MSS but scary mon indeed, A- sounds good

Mega Alakazam: B+ ---> A-

This thing is frail as hell but it's a good fast-mon and hard-hitting mon in stall teams for example. I think B- is good enough.

Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-

Hits hard as hell but a pain in the ass to set-up properly imo. B- is not really high so i think it's fine

Hydreigon: C+ ---> C

x4 against fairy is really ridiculous, and i don't really see the point of using it

Cresselia: C+ ---> B-

Pretty good check to Landorus-i / Medicham is guess, but it's not really good, weird typing, useless stabb, no support moves, i think C+ is fine for now.

Thundurus-T: C+ ---> C

I mean, why would you use that mon? Even ampharos is a better agility thunder mon under rain nowadays...it's pretty worthless.

Jellicent: Unranked ---> D / C-

The list is already pretty big and a lot of mons are misplaced, we should deal with it first before adding some mons...And i don't see the purpose of playing jellicent, spinnblocking doesn't coun't anymore, you can't deal with ZardX / Medicham / Heracross / Gardevoir really well, and it's not even threatening.

 

[RotomPoison]

Chansey: A- ---> B+

The metagame is getting pretty physical, even special mons like Landorus, Gengar and Gardevoir can deal with it now. Bisharp is also a pain in the ass for him, B+ is good.

Skarmory: A- ---> B+

Skarmory is not as cool as he was before, it's easier to deal with with the steel nerf / defog and the fact that you have a bit of a 4MSS if you don't have, but it's still a pretty good mon, B+ is fine imo.

Slowbro: A- ---> A

Idk about putting slowbro that high, it's really a "i can't deal with this mon so i use it" type of mon and it's pretty much stall-only, it's great at what it does but it's not an all-around beast that can stall the whole metagame or be used in every team. A- is really high in itself.

Manaphy: B+ ---> A-

Really good against balanced teams and maybe even stall but a bit weak against heavy offense, i don't know where to rank that one, manaphy's utility is based around match-up so i wouldn't rank it really high, even if it's an enormous threat to some teams

Mega Aerodactyl: B+ ---> A-

Annoying 4MSS but scary mon indeed, A- sounds good

Mega Alakazam: B+ ---> A-

This thing is frail as hell but it's a good fast-mon and hard-hitting mon in stall teams for example. I think B- is good enough.

Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-

Hits hard as hell but a pain in the ass to set-up properly imo. B- is not really high so i think it's fine

Hydreigon: C+ ---> C

x4 against fairy is really ridiculous, and i don't really see the point of using it

Cresselia: C+ ---> B-

Pretty good check to Landorus-i / Medicham is guess, but it's not really good, weird typing, useless stabb, no support moves, i think C+ is fine for now.
Thundurus-T: C+ ---> C

I mean, why would you use that mon? Even ampharos is a better agility thunder mon under rain nowadays...it's pretty worthless.

Jellicent: Unranked ---> D / C-

The list is already pretty big and a lot of mons are misplaced, we should deal with it first before adding some mons...And i don't see the purpose of playing jellicent, spinnblocking doesn't coun't anymore, you can't deal with ZardX / Medicham / Heracross / Gardevoir really well, and it's not even threatening.

You disagree with using Jellicent but want it to be ranked?

Also Hydreigons "x4 Fairy weakness" is just 1 problem, but it has a giant movepool that leaves it with no true and practical counters.

 

[Jukain]

jelli is garbage, i used it and it just generally sucks. it would love to beat scizor but knock off is a thing, i wish this thing could deal with hera and cham but it can't, loses to gk ninja... spdef is a keld & land check i guess plus taunt lets it sorta stallbreak i guess but it's just meh in so many respects, shit on by so many common mons.

 

[dadoux]

You disagree with using Jellicent but want it to be ranked?

Also Hydreigons "x4 Fairy weakness" is just 1 problem, but it has a giant movepool that leaves it with no true and practical counters.

I quoted alexwolf post. And hydreigon is not threatening.

 

[HelloImAmNotYou]

I believe that Mega Alakazam should go A-. With its two most major threats (Mawile and Aegislash) out of OU, I feel as though Mega Alakazam is now a huge monster. With 150 speed, you're allowed to run modest nature giving yo that monstrous 175 Special Attack, and if you wanted to, you can also run protect as 4th slot move for a safe Mega Evolution as sometimes it can be hard to do with a modest nature as threats like Greninja and Gengar can outspeed and OHKO Modest Alakazam. The set I have been using (Differs sometimes) is-
Alakazam - Modest - 252Sp.Atk/Spd. 4HP
-Magic Guard
-Alakazite
-Psychic/Psyshock
-Substitute/Protect
-Calm Mind
-Focus Blast/Shadow Ball
I like to run this set a lot and I have actually swept with it a few times(more if the opponent didn't chicken out). Sub is there mainly for status moves/Sucker punch, followed by a calm mind. CM makes Mega Zam even more powerful and a little bit more bulky on the special side and can make it easier to deal with Blissey if you don't have Psyshock. Focus Blast is needed for Dark types, without it you can't do Jack shit to Dark types. Shadow Ball is only there for opposing Psychic Types.
Trace can also be a nifty ability to play around with. You can switch in on Heatran's fire attacks and trace Flash Fire then OHKO with Focus Blast and you outspeed a choice scarf Heatran (Modest. Timid outspeeds by four points). You can do the same with Dragonite, You could also get Sheer Force, re-get Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, Protean, Intimidate, Scolipede's Speed Boost, Sturdy(Good for CM Alakazam, Assuming you already didn't get hit).
So yeah overall I think this is a good Pokemon thats deserves A-.
P.S. This is my time doing one of these, so if its shit then I apologize.

 

[Jukain]

o i forgot to post trc told me to...

proposing a tr rank to encompass exploud, porygon2, and crawdaunt, in addition to currently unranked mega abomasnow and cofagrigus, which are all pokemon that are pretty much only viable in trick room teams. the reason for this is, that while trick room MAY deserve to be mention somewhere, it is by no means an optimal strategy. i don't see tr as anything more than a fun, matchup-reliant gimmick that can work but generally isn't a consistent or viable playstyle to bring for a serious match. plus, the trick room mons don't really fit anywhere with the rest of the ranks, as they can only be effective in those specific conditions and on specific teams. a tr rank allows these pokemon to still be mentioned, but separates them from the rest of the pack.

also lol drop espeon and smeargle, these shitty bp teams that aren't even good aren't enough reason to keep them with good pokemon.

 

[Kurona]

Wait, since when were Crawdaunt and Porygon2 only good for Trick Room?

 

[Vert]

Chansey + Skarmory are A- 'mons :D

Okay, so I feel Mega Aerodactyl should move up to A-. It has great utility and makes Offensive teams flip. Mega Alakzam does the exact same thing except with more utility against weather teams and Tracing Sheer Force which ends games actually. They are both two excellent 'Mega choices that are A- worthy. Manaphy is probably the ultimate Sand Offense annoyer along with Double Dance Landorus-T. The CM Rain Dance set makes sand teams really annoyed SPAMming Scald with great physical bulk and Rain Dance means that sand won't be up for Excadrill. Not as potent, but Tail Glow Rain Dance not only 6-0s almost all non-Ferro stall without consuming your mega slot (and Ferrothorn can be easily removed by Magnezone), but allows it to outpace Excadrill with sand gone meaning they'll be forced to bring in their bulky water which will be 2HKOed by Psychic. Totally not B+. It's a great 'mon right now.

Okay, Chansey is still an A- 'mon. I don't want to here this "passive" argument, because that itself is not going to drop it to B+. Chansey is the staple of stall because of its ability to tank attacks that stall teams would have trouble with like Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice, Latios's Draco Meteor, and Mega Charizard Y. Sets up SR too. On top of that, it isn't set up bait because most of the crap is being Toxic'd or 3HKOed by Seismic Toss / 2HKO if you pair it with Toxic. On top of that, its a status absorber along with Gliscor meaning common stallbreakers like Mew can't always stay in because a combo of Toxic and Seismic Toss will eventually bring it down despite Softboiled. It even stays healthy through out the match. Its set can be adjustable such as Thunder Wave > Toxic. These facts alone make it a solid A- 'mon. Stall would be so much harder without it. It's good.

stay in A- imo. The ability to counter both BirdSPAM and Sand Offense in one package is just so useful. The Aegislash ban means that it can't Shadow Ball it to death and Mega Mawile can't do SD Fire Fang shenanigans. On top of that, Skarmory gets Defog and Roost for a reliable Defogger/Spinner that doesn't get worn down because of Roost (looking at you Latios and Excadrill) and can deal with Mega Charizard X because Sturdy + Counter auto destroys it. It can later come in on something it outpaces and Roost in front of its faces. Access to Spikes and Stealth Rock makes it 10x better and can take a Stallbreaker role with Taunt and make Offense take unnecessary Stealth Rock damage. The sheer amount of bulk it has and its great typing makes it more valuable to a team walling: Landorus-T, Garchomp (w/o FB), Azumarill, Landorus-I (immune/resists Earth Power, Sludge Wave, and Psychic then can phaze or force it to U-turn or switch), Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, non-Blitz Talonflame but even then its usually CB lock BB, list goes on...These tools allow it to be a very good 'mon. It's an A- 'mon.

Putting those in hide tags because I don't want them to be the main point of this post and because they probably won't drop anyways.

+Vertex: its not D Rank material
+Vertex: tbh
%Jukain: yea ur right
%Jukain: its unranked
%Jukain: material
%Srn: i mean duggy has its uses even in OU

xx

%Jukain: lol u can convince alexwolf of anything

This thing was so much better last generation. Went onto PS to get all the Duggy unviable crap, but I am making a small bump because it not on the same level as other D Rank 'mons like Salamence, Mantine, and Zygarde in which Dugtrio performs much better than all. C- is where it belongs. Its honestly just your preference. I find Dugtrio just as good as Tyranitar supporting my team. It traps so much useful crap in the current metagame. Mega Tyranitar being removed is godly because you are pretty much crapping on their two win conditions. Excadrill is gone and because there is no Sand, Excadrill is useless. In fact if you sack a 10% HP useless 'mon like Garchomp for Excadrill, you can bring in healthy Dugtrio, take the hit to Focus Sash and Earthquake it to death which is doing 99% minimum to it, OHKO after Rocks/LO damage. Reversal removes Tyranitar and Earthquake can remove both Magnezone and Heatran, two 'mons that are annoyances to teams. With Mega Charizard X having Heatran, and/or Tyranitar removed (which means Excadrill can't RK it), this leaves Talonflame, Hippowdon, and Azumarill left. Talonflame is so easy to check/counter with all the Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. Azumarill is taking 75% damage from Flare Blitz assuming it AV and lol Hippowdon is also taking like 70% with its Mixed Wall set. It makes Mega Charizard X so much more threatening to Offensive teams. especially since you have all these Scarf Lando-T's which can't even outpace +1 ZardX and get OHKOed by Adamant Flare Blitz. It is still pretty niche, but niche like the other D Rank 'mon. It also has nice speed to utilize cause it can trap and kill Terrakion, weakened Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and some other dangerous attackers like Mega Medicham, Kabutops (bye rain team), and Bisharp. At 1 HP, it can crush Chansey too which Mega Charizard X will have to take unnecessary damage to OHKO after Stealth Rock. C- lmao

 

[astroboy]

glad manaphys being recognized as a threat tbh. with a pretty good movepool, good all around stats, and a lot of different ways to use it (cm set, tail glow, support, or even a scarfer) it can be a quite effective mon that a lot of teams dont come prepared for. while it not be the best mon, its definitely underrated

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I'll make a longer post than my previous one in regards to dropping Skarmory. Skarmory seems on paper like it'd be a good pokemon still in this metagame, with solid defenses and the abilities to counter (or at least check) Azumarill Mega-Pinsir, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Gyarados, Garchomp and more. But Skarmory's problem lies in the fact that it can't do much to anything to the things it's supposed to counter. Sure, it can wall Excadrill and non Fire Blast Tyranitar, but what can it do in return besides phaze them out or lure in one of the numerous pokemon that threaten Skarmory like both Charizards, Keldeo, Thundurus, Greninja, Heatran, HP Fire Latios, Focus Blast Landorus-I, Rotom-W (which kills the Skarmory's user momentum without a Volt Switch immunity and can always switch in for free), Entei, Mega-Manectric (see Rotom-W), Raikou and more. For this reason, Skarmory kills momentum fast. It has Defog and Roost, but a set with Defog/Roost/Whirlwind/Brave Bird, a recoil move on a defensive pokemon with an uninvested base 80 attack brings absolutely no offensive pressure at all and lets a variety of pokemon walk over it. For instance, Mega-Scizor can come in and Defog freely since Skarmory has no room for Taunt or set up Swords Dance while Knock Off does huge chunks of damage at +2 or +4. Brave Bird does a pittance in exchange. Landorus-T is walled and it's hazards are defogged but it's free to simply U-Turn into something that pressures Skarmory. It's better to use a pokemon that can force pokemon like Excadrill, Landorus-T and Mega-Scizor out as well as provide offensive momentum like Keldeo rather than a pokemon like Skarmory that can't do anything but phaze.

It's also important to point out that B+ does not indicate a bad or unuseable pokemon. B+ still indicates a useful pokemon. But A- indicates a great pokemon, which Skarmory simply isn't. Skarmory can Defog and heal itself which makes it hard to wear down as well as provide insurance against a big threat in SR Excadrill and it checks Birdspam as long as it's not running Magnezone. But while you'd think the Aegislash ban helped Skarmory, being one of the long line of pokemon that were hard-walled by Aegislash it actually gave rise to wallbreakers that have no trouble breaking through Skarmory like Medicham and Gardevoir. The Skarmbliss + bulky grass + Quagsire stall teams no longer function because of this, and thus Skarmory is not as worth a team slot as it was before. Stall would rather run something that can pressure these offensive behemoths and Balance would rather run Ferrothorn for a bulky steel and Lati@s for removing hazards. I'm not sure if Mega-Mawile's ban even helped Skarmory, I mean it was a shaky check at best only being able to phaze it out and hurt it with Rocky Helmet Counter and Focus Punch + SD Fire Fangs mauled it, but if anything it just gave popularity to Megas that beat Skarmory, the only viable ones that don't are Mega-Chomp lacking Fire Blast (rare) and Mega-Pinsir (can still win if Skarmory is slightly weakened which is easy to do with smart switches). +2 Mega Heracross OHKOs with Close Combat after Rocks. Mega Gyarados is a shaky check at best because Skarmory can't afford to Brave Bird it and +1 Waterfall OHKOs if Skarmory flinches or gets a bad Whirlwind it's doomed. Mega-Ttars falls under the large category of pokemon that Skarmory walls but can't do anything back to but phaze it out.

Again, Skarmory isn't bad. It's a good pokemon. But it isn't a great pokemon because of it's lack of offensive presence, lack of consistency when checking things it's supposed to check, poor match-up with the majority of S-Rank threats (loses to Thundurus, Zard-X, coming in on BD Azumarill without full HP, Keldeo unless it Brave Birds on the switch, I don't think Scald OHKOes back though so whatever) as well as not being able to return fire to what it's supposed to be walling like Lando-T, Excadrill and whatever else. Chansey can Toxic the likes of Zard-Y, Greninja and Thundurus as well as chip away with Seismic Toss but because of Brave Bird's recoil and the ability to constantly need to Roost thanks to a patheticly low HP stat as well as not being able to run Toxic Skarmory can't. Skarmory has attributes. It can Defog on a lot of pokemon like AV Azumarill, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Mega-Scizor, Ferrothorn, Lando-I without Focus Blast (do people actually use Lando-I without Focus Blast?) and it's like the only pokemon in the tier that Sand Rush Excadrill can't even touch which is amazing. But it's attributes don't outweigh it's lack of offensive presence, how easy to pressure it is, how it loses momentum (almost everything in S-Rank can 2 shot it and like half of A+ rank and some of A rank too, overreliance on Whirlwind and competition from Drill, Lati@s, Mega-Scizor and Starmie as a hazard remover. It's more than enough to not consider Skarmory an A- rank threat anymore. The rise of Ferrothorn has also hurt Skarmory since they tend to wall the same sort of pokemon and the Fire type coverage to hit Ferrothorn also hurts Skarmory and even though Skarm isn't weak to Fighting like Ferrothorn it still takes too much to wall Medicham, Heracross, some Terrakion or even Conkeldurr since Skarm's Roost is faster and Drain Punch hits it for SE, I swear Skarmory would be an A rank if it resisted Fighting but because it doesn't it can't wall half the stuff it wants to wall.

Skarmory represents the sort of full stall that isn't as viable anymore and should be moved down to B+. Admittedly I'm on the fence about Chansey so no comment there. On a side note I'm surprised Smeargle didn't drop but Scolipede did. Smeargle is like the definition of niche, it can Geomancy pass but it's super gimmicky and hard to pull off, it needs both Focus Sash and Mental Herb to not die in one hit or not be Taunt bait but it can't do both. I think it should be moved all the way to D Rank. Maybe it's overkill but it does one thing that can't be done by better pokemon that actually support the team their own and can hold their own the rest of the battle.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

o i forgot to post trc told me to...

proposing a tr rank to encompass exploud, porygon2, and crawdaunt, in addition to currently unranked mega abomasnow and cofagrigus, which are all pokemon that are pretty much only viable in trick room teams. the reason for this is, that while trick room MAY deserve to be mention somewhere, it is by no means an optimal strategy. i don't see tr as anything more than a fun, matchup-reliant gimmick that can work but generally isn't a consistent or viable playstyle to bring for a serious match. plus, the trick room mons don't really fit anywhere with the rest of the ranks, as they can only be effective in those specific conditions and on specific teams. a tr rank allows these pokemon to still be mentioned, but separates them from the rest of the pack.

also lol drop espeon and smeargle, these shitty bp teams that aren't even good aren't enough reason to keep them with good pokemon.

we also need a rain rank stall rank and bp rank imo. magic room rank too,,,


Seriously though, Crawdaunt isn't Trick Room reliant. It works well under Trick Room, but Crawdaunt doesn't have to sweep; it can wallbreak. Aqua Jet also makes up for its low speed. There's a reason some people are suggesting for it to rise to B- and I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Jayd]

o i forgot to post trc told me to...

proposing a tr rank to encompass exploud, porygon2, and crawdaunt, in addition to currently unranked mega abomasnow and cofagrigus, which are all pokemon that are pretty much only viable in trick room teams. the reason for this is, that while trick room MAY deserve to be mention somewhere, it is by no means an optimal strategy. i don't see tr as anything more than a fun, matchup-reliant gimmick that can work but generally isn't a consistent or viable playstyle to bring for a serious match. plus, the trick room mons don't really fit anywhere with the rest of the ranks, as they can only be effective in those specific conditions and on specific teams. a tr rank allows these pokemon to still be mentioned, but separates them from the rest of the pack.

also lol drop espeon and smeargle, these shitty bp teams that aren't even good aren't enough reason to keep them with good pokemon.

Politoed, Kabutops, Omastar, Mega Ampharos, Kingdra for Rain Rank? How about we don't complicate things and file TR with weather under "team support"?

Furthermore I disagree with your claim that TR is overly matchup-reliant. For any given good team I would submit that there are TR or semi-TR teams that fare well against it, decently, or not well. Same as any other type of team.

 

[Jukain]

the alternative is deranking the tr threats, they have no place on serious teams which is what this thread should represent. this is a less drastic solution to satisfy people.

e: crawdaunt is really bad, it's astonishing that it's even in c+ rank

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

On a side note I'm surprised Smeargle didn't drop but Scolipede did. Smeargle is like the definition of niche, it can Geomancy pass but it's super gimmicky and hard to pull off, it needs both Focus Sash and Mental Herb to not die in one hit or not be Taunt bait but it can't do both. I think it should be moved all the way to D Rank. Maybe it's overkill but it does one thing that can't be done by better pokemon that actually support the team their own and can hold their own the rest of the battle.

Smeargle is not a bad pokemon. You basically sleep a pokemon for free and getup hazards in the process, including the elusive Sticky Web. I've used a couple of different Smeargle sets and all of them were effective. I've used Endeavor Smeargle which is actually really good; take a hit from a faster mon because Sash, put it to sleep and bring down another mon to 1 HP on the switch. And then you could even run E-Speed though SR/Spikes/Sticky Web/Taunt work too. You're also wrong that Smeargle can't use Sash and not be Taunt bait at the same time because Magic Coat is a thing. Yes it's a bold move and it requires prediction but that's not an argument here :] Smash/GeoPass is not the only thing Smeargle can do, in fact Spore/Dark Void + Hazards is usually the more reliable choice. Deoxys-D and Deo-S leaving the tier left a gap as far as hazard leads go, and Smeargle is still one of the better ones if you play him right. Terrakion and Azelf get Taunt and SR which is cool and all, but Spikes, Magic Coat and Spore are powerful moves that they miss out on. There's a reason why Smeargle is in C+, it's just really underrated for no good reason really. Yeah it doesn't stick around long, but when you immobilize a threat with Spore and get up hazards you're already at a serious advantage even when Smeargle goes down. That's just what Smeargle does either way.

As for Trick Room, the Mega Mawile ban was pretty much the nail in the coffin and I see no reason to use it now either. Mega Hera in Trick Room would be cool if it wasn't for Talonflame's priority. The thing with TR is that you need really powerful pokemon with low speed who can switch in with relative ease. Mega Mawile was just that and now it's gone. I remember using LO Rhyperior in TR last gen but that was in UU where TR was viable thanks to Cofagrigus/Porygon-2/Bronzong, in OU there's just too many switchins to Rhyperior. Crawdaunt is too frail to come in safely while TR is up and it's not strong enough without setup to sweep under TR unless you're facing HO, which TR kind of destroys either way due to the nature of the playstyle.

 

[Karxrida]

Smeargle is a piece of shit. You're forced to lead with it like 99% of the time and it's super easy to take advantage of due to this. Even if you successfully Spore something you still give everything in existence a free switch-in afterwards since you have no offensive presence and teams with Clerics or a Grass-type screw you. You don't really win too many lead match ups since you either get outsped and don't stop their hazards, Taunted, killed by Mamoswine's Icicle Spear/Breloom's Bullet Seed, or give something dangerous like Kyurem-B or Medicham a free Sub.

 

[Jacks0n]

Chansey + Skarmory are A- 'mons :D

Okay, so I feel Mega Aerodactyl should move up to A-. It has great utility and makes Offensive teams flip. Mega Alakzam does the exact same thing except with more utility against weather teams and Tracing Sheer Force which ends games actually. They are both two excellent 'Mega choices that are A- worthy. Manaphy is probably the ultimate Sand Offense annoyer along with Double Dance Landorus-T. The CM Rain Dance set makes sand teams really annoyed SPAMming Scald with great physical bulk and Rain Dance means that sand won't be up for Excadrill. Not as potent, but Tail Glow Rain Dance not only 6-0s almost all non-Ferro stall without consuming your mega slot (and Ferrothorn can be easily removed by Magnezone), but allows it to outpace Excadrill with sand gone meaning they'll be forced to bring in their bulky water which will be 2HKOed by Psychic. Totally not B+. It's a great 'mon right now.

Okay, Chansey is still an A- 'mon. I don't want to here this "passive" argument, because that itself is not going to drop it to B+. Chansey is the staple of stall because of its ability to tank attacks that stall teams would have trouble with like Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice, Latios's Draco Meteor, and Mega Charizard Y. Sets up SR too. On top of that, it isn't set up bait because most of the crap is being Toxic'd or 3HKOed by Seismic Toss / 2HKO if you pair it with Toxic. On top of that, its a status absorber along with Gliscor meaning common stallbreakers like Mew can't always stay in because a combo of Toxic and Seismic Toss will eventually bring it down despite Softboiled. It even stays healthy through out the match. Its set can be adjustable such as Thunder Wave > Toxic. These facts alone make it a solid A- 'mon. Stall would be so much harder without it. It's good.

stay in A- imo. The ability to counter both BirdSPAM and Sand Offense in one package is just so useful. The Aegislash ban means that it can't Shadow Ball it to death and Mega Mawile can't do SD Fire Fang shenanigans. On top of that, Skarmory gets Defog and Roost for a reliable Defogger/Spinner that doesn't get worn down because of Roost (looking at you Latios and Excadrill) and can deal with Mega Charizard X because Sturdy + Counter auto destroys it. It can later come in on something it outpaces and Roost in front of its faces. Access to Spikes and Stealth Rock makes it 10x better and can take a Stallbreaker role with Taunt and make Offense take unnecessary Stealth Rock damage. The sheer amount of bulk it has and its great typing makes it more valuable to a team walling: Landorus-T, Garchomp (w/o FB), Azumarill, Landorus-I (immune/resists Earth Power, Sludge Wave, and Psychic then can phaze or force it to U-turn or switch), Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, non-Blitz Talonflame but even then its usually CB lock BB, list goes on...These tools allow it to be a very good 'mon. It's an A- 'mon.

Putting those in hide tags because I don't want them to be the main point of this post and because they probably won't drop anyways.

+Vertex: its not D Rank material
+Vertex: tbh
%Jukain: yea ur right
%Jukain: its unranked
%Jukain: material
%Srn: i mean duggy has its uses even in OU

xx

%Jukain: lol u can convince alexwolf of anything

This thing was so much better last generation. Went onto PS to get all the Duggy unviable crap, but I am making a small bump because it not on the same level as other D Rank 'mons like Salamence, Mantine, and Zygarde in which Dugtrio performs much better than all. C- is where it belongs. Its honestly just your preference. I find Dugtrio just as good as Tyranitar supporting my team. It traps so much useful crap in the current metagame. Mega Tyranitar being removed is godly because you are pretty much crapping on their two win conditions. Excadrill is gone and because there is no Sand, Excadrill is useless. In fact if you sack a 10% HP useless 'mon like Garchomp for Excadrill, you can bring in healthy Dugtrio, take the hit to Focus Sash and Earthquake it to death which is doing 99% minimum to it, OHKO after Rocks/LO damage. Reversal removes Tyranitar and Earthquake can remove both Magnezone and Heatran, two 'mons that are annoyances to teams. With Mega Charizard X having Heatran, and/or Tyranitar removed (which means Excadrill can't RK it), this leaves Talonflame, Hippowdon, and Azumarill left. Talonflame is so easy to check/counter with all the Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. Azumarill is taking 75% damage from Flare Blitz assuming it AV and lol Hippowdon is also taking like 70% with its Mixed Wall set. It makes Mega Charizard X so much more threatening to Offensive teams. especially since you have all these Scarf Lando-T's which can't even outpace +1 ZardX and get OHKOed by Adamant Flare Blitz. It is still pretty niche, but niche like the other D Rank 'mon. It also has nice speed to utilize cause it can trap and kill Terrakion, weakened Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and some other dangerous attackers like Mega Medicham, Kabutops (bye rain team), and Bisharp. At 1 HP, it can crush Chansey too which Mega Charizard X will have to take unnecessary damage to OHKO after Stealth Rock. C- lmao

I don't think you realise why were supporting skarm to drop. The main reason is magnezone. Magnezone has got a ton of usage recently in high level play, and it really stops skarm from being a top defensive counter to scarf lando t/ mega gyara / mega pinsir ect. because they are so often paired with magne. Skarmory is still good even with mag everywhere, but its still really passive and the fact that its passive as well as magnezone being everywhere is why it doesn't deserve A-.