Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Serious note: What is your guys opinion on Thundurus T? Outclassed, standalone, etc?
I don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to make a joke lmao.
I gave Thundurus T a somewhat good analysis a page or two back.
 
Serious note: What is your guys opinion on Thundurus T? Outclassed, standalone, etc?
I don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to make a joke lmao.
I gave Thundurus T a somewhat good analysis a page or two back.

I've heard it has an extremely small niche on rain teams as a Volt absorber but otherwise it's outclassed in every way by Thundy-I. Prankster is just amazing, it lets Thundy-I act as a reliable stop to sweepers. Thundy-T has a bit more power but it's nowhere near worth using over its origin form in 99% of cases. The final nail in the coffin is the fact they can't be run together, meaning Thundy-T has a high opportunity cost.

TLDR: It's very much outclassed and there's basically no reason to use it over Thundy-I
 
I have been wanting to post this for a while now, so here goes:

I believe Claydol should be at least D rank.
I use this pokemon in 1600+ games and it fufills its role exceptionally. Being a check to The genies and immune to their stabs is enough to warrant a niche but I will discuss further on my reasoning. Claydol has access to stealth rock and rapid spin shared only with excadrill (OU relevant). While claydol has a decent special set I find in this current meta that a bulky physical set works more effectively. 60/105/120 is nothing to laugh at and with specific spreads it can out speed and ohko defensive heatrans with EQ , ohko char y while taking a solar beam, as well as many other threats. It has 2 immunities in the form of electric and ground(-mold breaker), All the while being able to spin away hazards and setting them up on its switch-ins oppurtunities. While pursuit trapping and knock off is unfortunate I feel the usefulness out weighs its downsides. I don't feel it is outclassed as its combination typing and movepool make it stand out. This pokemon only got better with the release of mawile and aegi from OU. I will provide damage calcs and etc if needed.
 
I have been wanting to post this for a while now, so here goes:

I believe Claydol should be at least D rank.
I use this pokemon in 1600+ games and it fufills its role exceptionally. Being a check to The genies and immune to their stabs is enough to warrant a niche but I will discuss further on my reasoning. Claydol has access to stealth rock and rapid spin shared only with excadrill (OU relevant). While claydol has a decent special set I find in this current meta that a bulky physical set works more effectively. 60/105/120 is nothing to laugh at and with specific spreads it can out speed and ohko defensive heatrans with EQ , ohko char y while taking a solar beam, as well as many other threats. It has 2 immunities in the form of electric and ground(-mold breaker), All the while being able to spin away hazards and setting them up on its switch-ins oppurtunities. While pursuit trapping and knock off is unfortunate I feel the usefulness out weighs its downsides. I don't feel it is outclassed as its combination typing and movepool make it stand out. This pokemon only got better with the release of mawile and aegi from OU. I will provide damage calcs and etc if needed.
Right, so if Claydol is laughed at in literally every tier it has been a part of (BW UU, XY RU...), why would it be any better here?

So first off:
0 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 304-364 (78.9 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Claydol Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 200-236 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Claydol Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Only an idiot would let Heatran eat an STAB Ground attack, a bigger idiot would bother with uninvested Stone Edge on such a weak Pokemon (for a miniscule rate of success coupled with miss chance), and the greatest idiot of all would try giving a Claydol actual offensive investment to achieve these KOes (let's hope this is not you), so I don't know how you got those calcs unless you grossly misinterpreted their sets or got an unknown crit. I also don't know how you can check Landorus without Ice Beam.

Second, I know that the decrease of Ghosts made Spinning easier, but that only justifies Excadrill's use, which is much better for all intents and purposes. It can set up SR, it can spin, it is fast, powerful, good typing, actually threatens shit, etc... Pretty much the only thing Exca can't do well is wall stuff (unless Thundurus lacks Focus Blast), but Claydol's claim to 'wall better' is refuted by its lack of recovery and numerous weaknesses. Not to mention you're using a physically defensive Claydol to stop Thundy and not enough room for Ice Beam to stop Lando, so I don't even know how that works.

I don't know how you 'got chances to spin away SR and set up on the switch', because when I look at the Pokemon at the rankings, there are barely any Pokemon at all that would even give Claydol a meaningful glance. Absolutely nothing is too threatened by Claydol at all, even Multiscale Dragonite can set up to +2 in front of Ice Beam Claydol (yes, the second Ice Beam isn't weakened bvy Multiscale) and still not care. Even if you claim that Claydol "checks the genies", that is not worth being absolutely helpless against literally everything else. Also, "being unique" (Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin is definitely not unique) is usually not enough to warrant a place in OU, otherwise we'd be seeing things like Trevenant, Swoobat, Lopunny, and other 'unique things' that are far more trouble than they are worth. Like Claydol.
 
Alfalfa you wanted opinions on some of the C rank mons? Ive used Venomoth for a while in what started out as a joke team, but it's actually a really good quilverpasser, with better speed and bulk than smeargle which allows it to take neutral attacks and setup a quilverpass dance, while having a free item choice. I will admit that a sash is nice, but I personally prefer black sludge. It's ability also makes it a great passer, being able to avoid taunt, twave, whirlwind etc. a cold 50% of the time. With tinted lins it can also use a decently powerful bug buzz itself. It's awkward speed is actually a pretty neat tie, being able to outspeed stuff such as neutral base 100 as well as the entire meta at +1. Sleep powder is also nice, as it can often bring in the boosted pokemon sefely.
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Venomoth: Stay in C-

I don't care about the other mons, and I don't have much experience with them, but Venomoth deserves C- at the very least not going to nom it up though.
 
Right, so if Claydol is laughed at in literally every tier it has been a part of (BW UU, XY RU...), why would it be any better here?

Just for the record, but just because a pokemon has a good niche in one tier doesn't mean it's good in all of them. Gourgeist for example can be very useful in OU, like alexwolf said, but it's not very good in UU, RU, or even NU -- and only its S and XL forms are A- in PU.

Another example is how Klefki is A in ubers but only C+ in OU.
 
Just for the record, but just because a pokemon has a good niche in one tier doesn't mean it's good in all of them. Gourgeist for example can be very useful in OU, like alexwolf said, but it's not very good in UU, RU, or even NU -- and only its S and XL forms are A- in PU.
I get that Pokes can perform better in higher tiers than in lower tiers (exhibit A: Klefki), but Claydol's problems persist in every tier it's been in to make it not worth using, and that's when it's not directly outclassed.
 
Alfalfa you wanted opinions on some of the C rank mons? Ive used Venomoth for a while in what started out as a joke team, but it's actually a really good quilverpasser, with better speed and bulk than smeargle which allows it to take neutral attacks and setup a quilverpass dance, while having a free item choice. I will admit that a sash is nice, but I personally prefer black sludge. It's ability also makes it a great passer, being able to avoid taunt, twave, whirlwind etc. a cold 50% of the time. With tinted lins it can also use a decently powerful bug buzz itself. It's awkward speed is actually a pretty neat tie, being able to outspeed stuff such as neutral base 100 as well as the entire meta at +1. Sleep powder is also nice, as it can often bring in the boosted pokemon sefely.
View attachment 27043 Venomoth: Stay in C-

I don't care about the other mons, and I don't have much experience with them, but Venomoth deserves C- at the very least not going to nom it up though.
Already in C- so did you mean C?
I have been wanting to post this for a while now, so here goes:

I believe Claydol should be at least D rank.
I use this pokemon in 1600+ games and it fufills its role exceptionally. Being a check to The genies and immune to their stabs is enough to warrant a niche but I will discuss further on my reasoning. Claydol has access to stealth rock and rapid spin shared only with excadrill (OU relevant). While claydol has a decent special set I find in this current meta that a bulky physical set works more effectively. 60/105/120 is nothing to laugh at and with specific spreads it can out speed and ohko defensive heatrans with EQ , ohko char y while taking a solar beam, as well as many other threats. It has 2 immunities in the form of electric and ground(-mold breaker), All the while being able to spin away hazards and setting them up on its switch-ins oppurtunities. While pursuit trapping and knock off is unfortunate I feel the usefulness out weighs its downsides. I don't feel it is outclassed as its combination typing and movepool make it stand out. This pokemon only got better with the release of mawile and aegi from OU. I will provide damage calcs and etc if needed.
Replays please, and ones that are worthwhile watching to prove your point would be nice. Like Punchshroom said, Claydol is a levitating piece of garbage so I would love to see the magic of the holy god that is Claydol apparently.
Serious note: What is your guys opinion on Thundurus T? Outclassed, standalone, etc?
I don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to make a joke lmao.
I gave Thundurus T a somewhat good analysis a page or two back.
Pretty sure you were the dude I talked to in OU last night but yeah outclassed in a general sense, too much real opportunity cost to function, and most of its useful traits are ok at best but doesn't necessarily warrant a team slot in comparison to the other mons above it. It's fine in C.
 
I'm probably gonna get some shit for this but I can actually see Thundy T going back up to C+

Aside from the obvious fact that he's way better than everything in C, he also has a pretty cool niche in stoping VoltTurn. His electric immunity is way too overlooked imo. Even though it may be the obvious play to switch in Thundy into electric attacks, it still works. Cock blocking Rotoms free momentum is something very few mons can boast, and having an immunity while simultaneously not being weak to Hydro Pump is a pretty unique niche in itself. Add on that Scarfed sets take on PinsirMag quite well, as well as Manectric, and I see a mon that has enough of a niche to rise a rank.

I get that Thundy can't be used if yu choose Thundy T, and that a reduction in speed sucks, but resisting VoltTurn as well as cock blocking Rotom is enough of a niche over his incarnate Forme to warrant usage on a few different teams.

Idk if any of that made sense or not but I feel C+ is fair for Thundy T. I mean, it is a whole 2 and a third ranks below his better form, after all.
 
Right, so if Claydol is laughed at in literally every tier it has been a part of (BW UU, XY RU...), why would it be any better here?

So first off:

Only an idiot would let Heatran eat an STAB Ground attack, a bigger idiot would bother with uninvested Stone Edge on such a weak Pokemon (for a miniscule rate of success coupled with miss chance), and the greatest idiot of all would try giving a Claydol actual offensive investment to achieve these KOes (let's hope this is not you), so I don't know how you got those calcs unless you grossly misinterpreted their sets or got an unknown crit. I also don't know how you can check Landorus without Ice Beam.

Second, I know that the decrease of Ghosts made Spinning easier, but that only justifies Excadrill's use, which is much better for all intents and purposes. It can set up SR, it can spin, it is fast, powerful, good typing, actually threatens shit, etc... Pretty much the only thing Exca can't do well is wall stuff (unless Thundurus lacks Focus Blast), but Claydol's claim to 'wall better' is refuted by its lack of recovery and numerous weaknesses. Not to mention you're using a physically defensive Claydol to stop Thundy and not enough room for Ice Beam to stop Lando, so I don't even know how that works.

I don't know how you 'got chances to spin away SR and set up on the switch', because when I look at the Pokemon at the rankings, there are barely any Pokemon at all that would even give Claydol a meaningful glance. Absolutely nothing is too threatened by Claydol at all, even Multiscale Dragonite can set up to +2 in front of Ice Beam Claydol (yes, the second Ice Beam isn't weakened bvy Multiscale) and still not care. Even if you claim that Claydol "checks the genies", that is not worth being absolutely helpless against literally everything else. Also, "being unique" (Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin is definitely not unique) is usually not enough to warrant a place in OU, otherwise we'd be seeing things like Trevenant, Swoobat, Lopunny, and other 'unique things' that are far more trouble than they are worth. Like Claydol.


First of all when did I say its uninvested? The first thing a player does when they see claydol is !data its stats to determine if its a threat. I have run claydol in other tiers and he doesn't work as well as he does in OU. You could be more polite when making your statements. To oblige you though, I will make my individual points.

For starters I said a bulky physical set, not a physically bulky set.

I can't remember if these are my exact evs (not on my computer atm) but i will edit when I wake up. I will also upload some replays when I have access to my computer.

Claydol@leftovers
Careful
194 hp / 184 atk / 72 Spdef / 60 Speed
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock

Landorus/Thundurus I :
With knock off being such a common move, 99% of all Landorus-I that I come across, run Stealth rock + 3 attacks. (Focus Blast, psychic, earth power)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 74-87 (23.9 - 28.1%) -- 95.5% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 122-146 (39.4 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

On a team with M venusaur/gyarados/M heracross its easy to predict the psychic, earth power, twave, thunderbolt and switch into claydol. I can precede to either set up my hazards or spin away their hazards. Most Thundurus-I stay in for the HP ice being unable to 2hko me.

Heatran: when going against heatran, they will !data Claydol to see its stats and damage calc earth power seeing I can't ohko. Letting them either set up rocks or toxic.

0 SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 204-244 (52.9 - 63.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I have killed plenty a heatrans that underestimate claydol.

184 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 388-460 (100.7 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Under normal circumstances , getting rocks up (if coupled with bird spam), the opposing player will determine rocks will outweigh the potential 63% from earth power or even set up toxic to stall out rapid spin.

Charizard Y/X:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol in Sun: 229-271 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 224-264 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

184 Atk Claydol Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 332-392 (111.7 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Charizard Y will never expect a stone edge from a claydol. It will attempt to ohko with solar beam/fire blast or over predict a switch. Another instance I have come across plenty of times on the ladder.


Charizard X: if it wants to attempt to set up that's fine. Unless they have roost, they arent going to get to use Ddances boost after stealth rock damage.

184 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 186-222 (62.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted it can okho me with flare blitz but I usually don't stay in unless I feel claydol is no longer needed. That was more for the just FYI since I have had people in 1500s attempt it.

I am not saying claydol is the most amazing Pokémon in the world but when I am making teams I often have trouble finding an acceptable switch in on the incarnates. Claydol fufills this, for me, as well as eliminates the need for rocks and defog/spinner. Having the added ground and electric immunity is also a nice bonus for team options. If a pokemon like mantine can have a niche in ou (because it is an answer to keldeo lol ) Then claydol has a niche.
 
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First of all when did I say its uninvested? The first thing a player does when they see claydol is !data its stats to determine if its a threat. I have run claydol in other tiers and he doesn't work as well as he does in OU. You could be more polite when making your statements. Unless you are at the very top, your opinion means nothing to me. To oblige you though I will make my individual points.

For starters I said a bulky physical set, not a physically bulky set. Pay attention to my wording.

I can't remember if these are my exact evs (not on my computer atm) but i will edit when I wake up. I will also upload some replays when I have access to my computer.

Claydol@leftovers
Careful
194 hp / 184 atk / 72 Spdef / 60 Speed
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock

Landorus/Thundurus I :
With knock off being such a common move, 99% of all Landorus-I that I come across, run Stealth rock + 3 attacks. (Focus Blast, psychic, earth power)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 74-87 (23.9 - 28.1%) -- 95.5% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 122-146 (39.4 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

On a team with M venusaur/gyarados/M heracross its easy to predict the psychic, earth power, twave, thunderbolt and switch into claydol. I can precede to either set up my hazards or spin away their hazards. Most Thundurus-I stay in for the HP ice being unable to 2hko me.

Heatran: when going against heatran, they will !data Claydol to see its stats and damage calc earth power seeing I can't ohko. Letting them either set up rocks or toxic.

0 SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 204-244 (52.9 - 63.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I have killed plenty a heatrans that underestimate claydol.

184 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 388-460 (100.7 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Under normal circumstances , getting rocks up (if coupled with bird spam), the opposing player will determine rocks will outweigh the potential 48% from earth power or even set up toxic to stall out rapid spin.

Charizard Y/X:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol in Sun: 229-271 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 194 HP / 72+ SpD Claydol: 224-264 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

184 Atk Claydol Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 332-392 (111.7 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Charizard Y will never expect a stone edge from a claydol. It will attempt to ohko with solar beam/fire blast or over predict a switch. Another instance I have come across plenty of times on the ladder.


Charizard X: if it wants to attempt to set up that's fine. Unless they have roost, they arent going to get to use Ddances boost after stealth rock damage.

184 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 186-222 (62.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted it can okho me with flare blitz but I usually don't stay in unless I feel claydol is no longer needed. That was more for the just FYI since I have had people in 1500s attempt it.

I am not saying claydol is the most amazing Pokémon in the world but when I am making teams I often have trouble finding an acceptable switch in on the incarnates. Claydol fufills this, for me, as well as eliminates the need for rocks and defog/spinner. Having the added ground and electric immunity is also a nice bonus for team options. If a pokemon like mantine can have a niche in ou (because it is an answer to keldeo lol ) Then claydol has a niche.

No. Claydol is simply a Pokemon flawed from the ground up, and not just by its lack of recovery. It has a terrible typing and its stats are so bad that it relies on Toxic to do decent damage.

"Unless you're at the very top your opinion means nothing to me"

Yeah that doesn't sound conceited at all and someone bringing up Claydol I don't believe is at the top either.

If I ever ran Claydol I would never use such a set that invests heavily into offenses simply because that's pointless.

Claydol is a SR setter that auto loses to Latios, Skarmory, and Starmie and can barely even check Excadrill and it never truly gets an opportunity to spin multiple times. All those calcs prove is that you need significant investment to make claydol even seem somewhat usable when in reality if it's your main check to those threats you're completely screwed in reality. Claydol is a bad Pokemon that should stay unranked.
 
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 211-250 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So much for checking Lando-I. Knock off is a pretty common move on it and it fucks up Claydol to no end. Just because you were fortunate enough not to run into it so far doesnt mean its not an issue.

Yeah it might get you a kill here and there against Zard Y/Heatran if the opponent doesnt scout but that doesnt make it any better. Its weak as fuck, has no reliable recovery, bad typing and even the bulk isnt that good. Its worse than Donphan who isnt ranked either. You are free to use it but i realy doubt it will ever get ranked.
 
Claydol was only good in ADV OU, but that's a long thing of the past. It was meh in DPP UU, meh in BW RU, awful in BW UU, and still awful in XY RU. It's bad for obvious reasons. Its defensive typing is awful, giving it a lot of unwanted resistances and basicallly everything in S and A Rank except probably Terrakion beats it one-on-one. It's mediocre at spinning because no team will give it proper opportunity to do so. And most importantly, it is setup fodder for literally everything. If you want a Stealth Rock user, there are plenty of other choices. As far as spinning, I'd rather go down into UU and even pick up Forretress or Donphan over this ancient piece of garbage.

It's such a shame since Claydol has such an interesting design. This thing is absolute garbage though and should stay unranked.
 
In regards to Exploud, with TR (and possibly SW) support this thing can be an absolute terror. With a bit of prior damage, it can actually muscle its way past some of its would-be counters such as Ferrothorn and Spef Heatran with Boomburst (which can easily be predicted and nailed with flamethrower/focus blast anyway). The only viable stall mon that's consistently taking Boomburst is Chansey. If you are going against a team with a lack of steel types or Chansey, Exploud can potentially get 3 kills over 3 turns of TR, which it has done for me before. Offensive teams are usually completely screwed, and the only priority in the game capable of one-shotting Exploud is Breloom... if it's Adamant or is holding a Life Orb. All in all, I support Exploud for C, because imo it's better than Diancie, who is also a TR teammate but both pokes are currently in C- ranking.
 
In regards to Exploud, with TR (and possibly SW) support this thing can be an absolute terror. With a bit of prior damage, it can actually muscle its way past some of its would-be counters such as Ferrothorn and Spef Heatran with Boomburst (which can easily be predicted and nailed with flamethrower/focus blast anyway). The only viable stall mon that's consistently taking Boomburst is Chansey. If you are going against a team with a lack of steel types or Chansey, Exploud can potentially get 3 kills over 3 turns of TR, which it has done for me before. Offensive teams are usually completely screwed, and the only priority in the game capable of one-shotting Exploud is Breloom... if it's Adamant or is holding a Life Orb. All in all, I support Exploud for C, because imo it's better than Diancie, who is also a TR teammate but both pokes are currently in C- ranking.
I think Diancie's ranked for being a decent trick room setter.
 
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Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
So I spent yesterday catching up on OU and started teambuilding a team with Togekiss. Togekiss fascinated me, and I'm honestly super impressed with it. For those who know me, I don't run stall, I don't think it's a fun play style. However, Togekiss is often seen as an outclassed cleric, and you'd be right; but, it does have useful niches in its Nasty Plot sets, which no other Fairy-type can claim to be able to do. I've been using a set of Nasty Plot / Air Slash / Roost / Aura Sphere, and it's been performing marvelously. I'm going to test the slow Baton Pass set, which also intrigues me. I know many do consider Togekiss an outclassed Pokemon, but it's a generally cool Pokemon that also has the luxury of checking Keldeo, Landorus, and Char Y all in one thanks to its naturally high bulk. Will add a bit more later n___n!
 
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Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
So I spent yesterday catching up on OU and started teambuilding a team with Togekiss. Togekiss fascinated me, and I'm honestly super impressed with it. For those who know me, I don't run stall, I don't think it's a fun play style. However, Togekiss is often seen as an outclassed cleric, and you'd be right; but, it does have useful niches in its Nasty Plot sets, which no other Fairy-type can claim to be able to do. I've been using a set of Nasty Plot / Air Slash / Roost / Aura Sphere, and it's been performing marvelously. I'm going to test the slow Baton Pass set, which also intrigues me. I know many do consider Togekiss an outclassed Pokemon, but it's a generally cool Pokemon that also has the luxury of checking Keldeo, Landorus, and Char Y all in one thanks to its naturally high bulk. Will add a bit more later n___n!
Totally agree. However, did you mean to type charizard-y, or something else? Because Specially defensive Toge takes around 70% from a Fire Blast, which is way too much for a check imo. I think its pressuring of Garchomp is definitely more worth bringing up than Charizard-Y.

Anyway for my opinion, I'll just repost what I said awhile ago:
I think Togekiss should rise to B-. It's commonly thought of a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none Pokemon, but so is Garchomp, and that's A. Togekiss and Garchomp both share a) an incapability of mastering anything and b) extreme versatility. I'll stop comparing Kiss to Chomp here, because I'm arguing for B-, not A. Basically, while Togekiss has two huge issues (the SR weakness and the Electric-weakness) and one smaller one (competition with fable), it's able to secure some interesting niches. My favorite set of Toge's is the NastyPass set. The set works because of Togekiss's massive bulk, and while its typing isn't the best, it still provides excellent synergy with Electric-types. Thundurus-I already has nasty plot and is immune to ground, so toge is a bit useless for it. However, the other three big offensive electrics (Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, and Raikou), all greatly appreciate the sweeping ability and the ground immunity that only Togekiss can provide. Masterclass made an excellent team using Togekiss + Ampharos, and I definitely implore you to check it out. Togekiss's second best set, in my opinion, is its Life Orb set, which is really cool. It again offers defensive synergy, but instead of using Nasty Plot to make its teammates threatening, it uses it with a Life Orb to destroy things. This sets only huge problem is the choice between Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, and Roost (you can only pick two). Otherwise, even with only 80 base speed, LO toge is a really cool set. Then there's the bread and butter specially defensive set, which has a few perks. Fire and foremost, it beats non-Sludge Wave Landorus, which basically should be all Landorus at this point. Other than Landorus, it's also able to serve as an emergency check to Landorus-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Mega Gardevoir, while being able to provide hazard removal support, paralysis support for slower teams, offensive presence, and Heal Bell. It can't run all at once, but it's still an interesting defogger capable of beating grounds + less reliably keldeo and gardevoir. It also flinches everything, which allows it to, especially with twave, limit what can beat it.

Electric types are the bane of Togekiss' existence, but it's still able to cope, providing sufficient team support. I think Togekiss' access to Nasty Plot, which is either able to make any special attacker, but specifically Electric types, or itself, extremely dangerous, plus its defensive utility (ground check, garde check, keld check, defog, heal bell, twave) warrants a move up to B-. It's commonly hated on, like Empoleon, but it's not all that different from other B- mons. Ampharos takes the mega slot, needs either togekiss or rain if it's offensive, has to deal with its non mega form (ie it can't switch in on chary if it hasn't evolved yet), and has an absence of reliable recovery. Nevertheless, its unique defensive typing, good coverage, and access to Agility let it carve itself two niches in OU. Togekiss has reliable recovery, the ability to remove rocks, and doesn't cost a mega slot. However it lacks Ampharos' excellent defensive typing and sr neutrality, so I'd say defensively they're about on par. Offensively, Ampharos really needs support to shine (nasty pass or rain), while togekiss doesn't. However, Togekiss is slower, so it's somewhat harder to use v. offense. It also doesn't cause any strain on teambuilding, other than needing a defogger. Again, I'd say their about on par. Then, Toge also has its best set imo, a slow baton passing set capable of making so many pokemon, specifically ampharos, absolutely terrifying. Admittedly it has its flaws, but its not different from Ampharos, Cress, or Chesnaught. All have certain exploitable weaknesses, but have either versatility or extreme proficiency at what they do to make up for it. Togekiss is ridiculously similar to these three; it's versatile as hell, has exploitable weaknesses, and is very good at at least one of its roles, NastyPassing. It's really easy to hate on, since it was so hyped earlier, but I think now it's under hyped.
tl;dr: its NastyPass and Offensive Nasty Plot sets are really good, and its specially defensive set is able to act as a decent glue mon. It's much superior to C+ mons, and would fit really well into B-.
 
308.png
--> A-
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--> A-
(The mega versions af course but I couldn't find the sprites for them).
Anyways let me explain this change. Surely I know that after Aegislash got banned everyone got a boner about this because these 2 were so good but still I think they are a bit overrated and should be moved down. In short these Pokemon are good because they dismantled stall teams like a pro. However with stall being a lot less common these days their job isn't really needed anymore, and even then stall teams started to adept to these threats by using Pokemon like Jirachi, Doublade and Cresselia. Also offensive teams are a lot more common these days and these Pokemon are straight up ass against offensive teams. Surely you could argue that Mega Gardevoir can be a Lati@s and Keldeo check while Mega Medicham can do some revenge killing stuff with Fake Out and Bullet Punch but these Pokemon are still rather useless against offense, the main playstyle atm (Even then Mega Medicham doesn't always run Fake out and Bullet Punch).

Both of these mega evolutions aren't bad by any means though. I mean both still dismantle defensive cores on balanced teams like a champion and any good wall is probably going to be scared of these Pokemon but my point still stands. I think Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir are still good but I just don't think they are exactly A rank worthy anymore.
 
I have been wanting to post this for a while now, so here goes:

I believe Claydol should be at least D rank.
I use this pokemon in 1600+ games and it fufills its role exceptionally. Being a check to The genies and immune to their stabs is enough to warrant a niche but I will discuss further on my reasoning. Claydol has access to stealth rock and rapid spin shared only with excadrill (OU relevant). While claydol has a decent special set I find in this current meta that a bulky physical set works more effectively. 60/105/120 is nothing to laugh at and with specific spreads it can out speed and ohko defensive heatrans with EQ , ohko char y while taking a solar beam, as well as many other threats. It has 2 immunities in the form of electric and ground(-mold breaker), All the while being able to spin away hazards and setting them up on its switch-ins oppurtunities. While pursuit trapping and knock off is unfortunate I feel the usefulness out weighs its downsides. I don't feel it is outclassed as its combination typing and movepool make it stand out. This pokemon only got better with the release of mawile and aegi from OU. I will provide damage calcs and etc if needed.
hello I would advise you to read this analysis i'm writing on claydol, it displays how (un)viable it is in the RU metagame, so yeah n_n

theres even a calc in the overview, which also displays how (un)viable it is

First of all when did I say its uninvested? The first thing a player does when they see claydol is !data its stats to determine if its a threat.

only for them to see 70 attack/spatk and laugh their ass off
 
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Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
So I spent yesterday catching up on OU and started teambuilding a team with Togekiss. Togekiss fascinated me, and I'm honestly super impressed with it. For those who know me, I don't run stall, I don't think it's a fun play style. However, Togekiss is often seen as an outclassed cleric, and you'd be right; but, it does have useful niches in its Nasty Plot sets, which no other Fairy-type can claim to be able to do. I've been using a set of Nasty Plot / Air Slash / Roost / Aura Sphere, and it's been performing marvelously. I'm going to test the slow Baton Pass set, which also intrigues me. I know many do consider Togekiss an outclassed Pokemon, but it's a generally cool Pokemon that also has the luxury of checking Keldeo, Landorus, and Char Y all in one thanks to its naturally high bulk. Will add a bit more later n___n!

the problem with stallbreaker togekiss is that there aren't many pokemon it can set up on. toge does jack shit against offense (unlike say mega hera or haxorus, which are dedicated stallbreakers but can still hold their own against hyperoffense). it's too slow, has no good fairy stab and is weak to sr.

also, you are mentioning togekiss checks keldeo and zard y, but it needs stealth rock gone to do so. it also needs to rely on 60/40s to get past them (even if sr isn't up in zard y's case, as it 2hkoes with fire blast). I'll give you landorus, though.

keep toge C+
 
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Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
So I spent yesterday catching up on OU and started teambuilding a team with Togekiss. Togekiss fascinated me, and I'm honestly super impressed with it. For those who know me, I don't run stall, I don't think it's a fun play style. However, Togekiss is often seen as an outclassed cleric, and you'd be right; but, it does have useful niches in its Nasty Plot sets, which no other Fairy-type can claim to be able to do. I've been using a set of Nasty Plot / Air Slash / Roost / Aura Sphere, and it's been performing marvelously. I'm going to test the slow Baton Pass set, which also intrigues me. I know many do consider Togekiss an outclassed Pokemon, but it's a generally cool Pokemon that also has the luxury of checking Keldeo, Landorus, and Char Y all in one thanks to its naturally high bulk. Will add a bit more later n___n!
I support Togekiss moving up. It's got great bulk and defensive typing. 80 speed isn't bad for a bulky tank and you can speed creep quite a few things, most notably Bisharp. Roost+Nasty Plot+2 attacks can be a very good attacker. Air Slash and Dazzling gleam are good STABs, and it has three good coverage moves in Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball and Flamethrower. Fairy/Fire (only resisted by Fire types), Fairy/Ghost (only Pyroar resists), Flying/Fighting (Electric/Flying types resist), Fairy/Fighting (only Poison types) and Ghost/Flying (only TTar and Bish resist) are all very good two move combinations. Even the good ole STAB combo is resisted only by Steels. The point of all that is that Toge can run two attacks, Nasty Plot and Roost and still hit a lot of things at least neutrally. I haven't tried the NastyPass set myself, but I've seen it used a few times and in theory is works good. Having Flying typing in addition to Fairy can be an interesting niche for a Fairy cleric compared to Clefable and Sylveon. Toge to B-

Anyone have any thoughts on Garchomp to A+? I guess I missed it moving down. I think it's lead set is good because it's fast, and most importantly, not passive. While other leads like Azelf fill the lead role more completely (eg. super fast, Taunt, U-Turn, screens, more lead type traits in general), Garchomp is a lead that can hit almost anything back hard. ScarfChomp is still ScarfChomp, and I honestly think it's overlooked in the current meta. Two strong STABs to get locked into and TWave immunity are the biggest pluses to using it as your Scarfer.
 
hello I would advise you to read this analysis

only for them to see 70 attack/spatk and laugh their ass off

I didn't know Claydol's offensive stats were that bad, but yeah, they are.

Honestly, Claydol has no niche. Its typing is honestly pretty terrible for a defensive poke, as psychic + ground doesn't stack resistances, so Claydol has 6(?) weaknesses to incredibly common offensive types (save bug, but whatever), and must rely on its EdgeQuake resistance and Electric immunity to get in.

C.Doll is also hopelessly outclassed as a Rapid Spinner; I'd even go so far as to say that Sandslash or Hitmonlee would be better spinners in OU than Claydol. It's slow, weak to a lot of attacks, is set-up bait for DDers of all types, &c &c.

I support Togekiss to B-. I used NastyPass while Toge was UU, and although it's much more difficult to set up in UU, most special attackers will give Toge a free turn to set up NP. It's also quite nice against non-CM Landorus lacking Sludge Wave. The problem with Toge is that if you're doing much of anything else, you're probably better off with Sylveon (cleric), Clefable (bulky booster), or Chansey (Wish Passer). If you'd like to piss people off with Serene Grace flinchhax, you're probably better off with Jirachi. YMMV, though, and I don't have much experience with Toge outside nastypass shenanigans.
 
alright, my body is ready for the hate

I LAUGH AT THIS META
gengar->a+

gengar is hilarious in this meta. u simply can't switch into it. taunt+lo 3 atks is rly good atm, being a good stall breaker, wall breaker, and it also does p nice against offense with that nice n powerful base 110 speed. u also have the sub split, and the sub wisp sets. the ridiculous amounts of psychics in this meta makes gengar a huge threat. get this thing in safely and something is taking HUGE damage because of its coverage+power. it uses great attacking types at a very proficient level. gar->a+
 
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