I laughed.
Anyway, Beedrill will have its niche, but it is absolutely no Mega Lucario. They shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
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Other ORAS Mega Speculation Thread (NO talk about potential bans NOR Aegislash)
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I laughed.
Anyway, Beedrill will have its niche, but it is absolutely no Mega Lucario. They shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
Mega Beedrill is cool but it won't even be OU. It'll probably be BL because UU is ban happy but whatever.
Why laugh?
It does have higher base attack than mega lucario, allegedly.
I meant stronger in terms of base attack. I probably should have specified what I meant, but oh well.
I've finally decided to use Draining Kiss over Dazzling Gleam, I know it's a lot weaker but I just really like that recovery. Calm Mind definitely helps though but I wish it got Moonblast
CureEcho (Audino) @ Audinite
Ability: Healer
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Wish
CureEcho (Audino) @ Audinite
Ability: Healer
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Wish
And M-Lucario has 145 base SpA and not horrible defense and a much better movepool and priority and 4X resists stealth rocks
While M-Beedrill does seem "stronger" than M-Lucario in paper, Lucario's access to high BP moves, many priority moves, and more threatening STABs mean Beedrill can never hope to be as good as M-Lucario. Just so you know that Beedrill is by no means stronger than Lucario:
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 792-932 (206.2 - 242.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 544-640 (141.6 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lucario also doesn't care about SR which lets him switch in a lot more, has actual bulk to survive some hits to set up an SD. It's also a lot more versatile and can even go special to surprise physical walls.
Lucario's close combat has a BP of 120, meaning it hits significantly harder than anything beedrill has, its also bulkier. That 5 point higher attack means nothing. Beedrill is weak to SR and its dual STABs are also pretty shit, as bug and poison is resisted by a lot of common OU pokemon. Lucario can go physical or mixed, with the best boosting moves in the game (SD and NP), meaning if you make a switch or predict the set wrong it will boost up and win. Lucario also has a pretty great move pool where as beedrills move pool is… for lack of a better word, dogshit. To top it off lucario has amazing priority in extreme speed and vacuum wave (the latter is adaptability boosted).
The fact that beedrill is much faster with a slightly higher attack is moot really when lucario is superior and more terrifying in almost every way imaginable. Mega beedrill is cool and all, but it's ass compared to mega luke.
The sad, sad truth, I'm afraid.
So far haven't been so awed with mence. It's defensive typing is pretty shabby with ninja and drill on every team, and it just doesn't have the power to be as threatening as say, mega-luc. Overall, I'd say it wreaks unprepared teams, but it just doesn't seem OP to me. Unhealthy for the meta, maybe (probably), but not OP. Have yet to try dedicated bulky DD mence and mixmence yet, but all out offensive doesn't look to be good as a stand-alone sweeper. Maybe add talon and a wish/healing wish mon and it'll probably outclass m-pinsir. IDK if I'm not using it right, but I just don't see the great uncheckable, uncounterable beast that lives in others' eyes.
Greninja, though. Gunk shot, spikes (FU thundy), low kick... This thing has won so many games. It's just ridiculous.
Greninja, though. Gunk shot, spikes (FU thundy), low kick... This thing has won so many games. It's just ridiculous.
Won't speak on Greninja, but Drill can't beat Salamence without support.
252 Jolly Drill falls 1 point short of MegaMence's uninvested positive-nature speed, and Mence's investment almost always puts it on top.
Defensive/Bulky Mence
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 148-174 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Since Mence goes first, it almost always beats Drill factoring in a round of LO recoil
Offensive Mence
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 213-252 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 143-169 (43.2 - 51%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (Intimidate)
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 177-208 (49 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 194-228 (53.7 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A bit more iffy, but this is assuming Mence has no coverage, which offensive WILL have
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-420 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 262-310 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Drill can't beat MegaMence unless it has sand for residual and outspeed, but considering Hippo is passive set-up fodder and Tyranitar w/out an Ice move
0 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
0 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 248-296 (74.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 160-190 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 238-282 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Any residual damage and/or boosts means T-tar can't switch in without being sacked.
Pure calcs don't quite say it. Switching in a fully offensive mence into a non-weakened t-tar is just asking to be revenge killed by drill, and switching in mence vs drill (I am of course talking about the only fully offensive drill, sand drill) is asking for half your health to be taken off (presuming no intimidate), or maybe even killed if the drill is jolly and you try to set up. Of course defensive dd mence sets up all over t-tar (lacking ice beam, or punch if mega/band) and drill, as well as pretty much every other physical attacker lacking an ice move or stab fairy/dragon/rock.
Beedrill basically gets rekt by any priority not named Mach Punch, and then it has STABs that are walled by basically any steel, making adaptability pretty useless. Don't forget Beedrill has no priority of his own, and has to rely on <80 BP moves to actually do something, while stuff with stuff like 120 BP moves will hit harder. As soon as mega Mence leaves OU then it'll be back to mega Pinsir birdspam where beedrill will just get completely murdered. Don't forget that it retains its sucky speed tier before mega evolving, so basically against a lot of OU offense mons it'll just die before getting a chance to attack. The only way you can safely mega is on passive mons you force out, but so much stuff can just kill it because its defensive typing is pretty $#!T. I just can't see mega Beedrill being good in OU
I acknowledged Jolly for the speed comparison, but standard Sand Rush Drill was Adamant, hence why I used it for the calcs. Thing is, Excadrill is beaten by offensive Mence since coverage beats it with the LO recoil/hazard damage, so at most Salamence needs something to stall out the Sand Turns, which isn't the hardest to find. The defensive sets have no trouble finding set-up fodder, so Drill has to already be in in order to win, lest Mence get the DD boost and guarantee the OHKO. Also, +1 Offensive Mence outspeeds Adamant Drill under Sand.
372*1.5 = 558
275* 2 = 550
So Offensive Mence can tank the hit, and then KO with coverage, or Roost-stall the Rock Slide PP, Sand turns, and Life Orb.
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roosting Salamence: 95-113 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage
I want to stress this. Offensive DD MegaMence can (in the long run), use Adamant Excadrill under sand as set-up fodder. And asking Tyranitar not to get weakened is a tall order when the support set has to provide weather with no recovery aside from Lefties. With Leftovers, Excadrill is easier to stop for a team because it has fewer sand turns; with Smooth Rock, Tyranitar loses any recovery and Mence ultimately beat it to cut off sand all together. The mere presence of Mega Mence, even already Mega'd immediately forces conservative play with the primary core of Sand Offense.
I believe this is the best mega Swampert set:
Swampert @ Swampertite
Adamant, 82HP/252Atk/176Speed
Damp > Swift Swim
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch
176 evs brings you up to 220 speed, which lets you outspeed Max speed Mega Beedrill under rain, which is probably the fastest unscarfed thing you'll encounter, meaning the rest can go into HP.
Swampert @ Swampertite
Adamant, 82HP/252Atk/176Speed
Damp > Swift Swim
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch
176 evs brings you up to 220 speed, which lets you outspeed Max speed Mega Beedrill under rain, which is probably the fastest unscarfed thing you'll encounter, meaning the rest can go into HP.
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Ah, beedrill. I don't know what gamefreak was thinking, actually, except maybe that they chose it completely at random, or they're just gearing up to mega every pokemon and they chose one with a really low dex number? Either way, we're left with one bizarre mega evolved pokemon on our hands. If we're talking usability, then beedrill doesn't have a lot of niches. It's got a great attack and speed stat to work with (after mega evolving), so it CAN punch some holes in things, but with those defenses and horrible typing, it's going to have a hard time getting an attack off against most teams. Honestly, I'd say it's only real use is going to be against stall. Against such teams, Beedrill can easily outspeed, and hit their commonly used psychic-types hard with STAB adaptability X-Scissor or U-Turn (which also allows you to outmaneuver said teams, which is one of the main keys to beating stall). Beedrill also can round out it's STAB w/poison jab to pummel grass or fairy types which can also find their way onto stall occasionally, and carry drill run to cover it's GLARING weakness against steel types, except skarmory.... which is super common on stall... and hard walls beedrill. Huh. I think we have a problem... yep. The fact that one of the most common stall 'mons hard walls mega beedrill is bad. That makes it harder to play against stall, which would still be one of it's best (if only) niches in OU. But hey, that's what teammates are for, right? Just run it next to magnezone and we're fine. Either way, Beedrill isn't going to be an easy pokemon to use. SR weak, plus ZERO defense equals one of the frailest things that has ever been considered for OU viability, but hey, it DOES look like it just might make the cut.
I honestly wouldn't consider the first months of usage to be accurate so I'd simply consider it making the cut due to novelty. That aside it is viable in OU as it does carry very strong U-turns and threatens fairy types, and it has a fairly usable speed tier and attack. Other than that it won't rank high but at least it won't be struggling as much, at best I'd see it go as high as B-.
Beedrill fell victim to what I'd call crippling over-specialization. Gamefreak had a good idea draining its unused Special Attack, but I think it could've used those 30 points in its physical defense to give it the defenses of a paper towel instead of wet tissue. A type change (though not sure to what) would've also probably helped with Adaptability. I see Beedrill's main niche being Voltturn's means of maintaining decent offensive presence with its momentum vs. Stall, given it does have an immunity to Toxic on top of high power and speed.
I foresee it having a niche, just not a particulrly common/valuable one, similar to how Gothitelle can destroy Stall... in a predominantly offensive Meta game.
Quite a few other fairies can run the exact same set to get similar results, and while Audino may be more bulky, those other fairies like Sylveon or Florges have lefties, Moonblast, a fighting resist, and don't take up the one Mega slot you have.
Originally I had a post up that was gonna knock this, but I like it. Swampert will make an excellent start to a strong rain core that may in fact hit the meta pretty hard. Only thing I would wanna say is that he should be paired up with a Damp Rock Drizzle Politoad and a Rain Dish Ludicolo also. You will also need an out to strong grass types, namely Mega Venusaur, so throwing in a Scizor with some strong bug STAB and decent defenses oughta help with that.
Rain Dance works on Swampert like a pseudo DD bringing Waterfall up to 180 BP, with that high ATK stat, it's gonna be nice.
don't use rain dish. it's hardly beneficial and ludicolo has ss, so abuse it. if you want to break venu, scizor is not a great answer. lo torn-t or latias fit this role much better
Adaptability Beedrill has something like 215 base Attack when using its STABs. To put that in perspective its X-Scissor is about 92% as powerful as Talonflame's Banded Brave Bird and much stronger than Keldeo's Hydro Pump. It has about the same power as a LO Close Combat from something with ~105 base Attack. That is pretty impressive. Beedrill kinda sucks though because it has almost literally no ability to switch in and also gets completely wrecked if it fails to get a OHKO. While it hits hard it doesn't hit quite hard enough to not worry about its defenses. Almost worst of all it starts off with a pathetic speed stat either limiting the things it can Mega on or forcing you to run Protect (though I guess it doesn't need Drill Run...)
I've been very impressed with Mega Sceptile in my time with it. It's a fantastic late game cleaner against balance/offense.
It's sort of like a M-Manectric, but you're trading the utility for a bit more speed and power. I've also tried an Agility set which hilariously 6-0's rain teams.
It's sort of like a M-Manectric, but you're trading the utility for a bit more speed and power. I've also tried an Agility set which hilariously 6-0's rain teams.
Do you seriously think that AGGRON and AUDINO are gonna be the things to balance out the entire meta? The fact that you have to turn to obscure threats that are shitty (Audino's alright I guess but not worth your mega b/c other fairies can do the exact same thing with less bulk in exchange for lefties, moonblast, fighting resist, and a free mega slot) outside of this ONE particular use in order to prove the Salamence is a "manageable" pokemon proves that there's no way that Salamence DOESN'T overcentralize the meta. Just because a pokemon has answers, and all of them do, doesn't make it manageable. And on your deal about how even if Mence survives stuff like slowbro, it can be finished off afterwards by a different pokemon--you stilladmit that 1/3 of your team is needed to address it fully. It also doesn't matter that you say Mence can't do everything at once because you can say that about EVERY pokemon (even MLuke had a few things to take hits from it and couldn't address EVERYTHING at once. ex:couldn't hit both bulky gyara and lando-T/gliscor at the same time) , so you can't use this as a unique reason to justify why Mence is not broken.
You have to be kidding me if you think you have a legitimate case for Mence to actually stay in the tier. Maybe it actually will, we don't know for sure how every single player on the ladder will be influenced by Mence and in turn influence how the meta looks. But IF it does stay, it's not going to stay for any of the reasons that you've been bringing up.
Except it is being tested. Just not in an official tier. This is hardly theorymonning anymore. You're assuming it hasn't set up in your face already. At neutral, obviously it isn't stupid broken, but once it gets its almost inevitable DD in its pretty much GG. It's much like mMaw given way too many opportunities to set up. Except far more versatile.
I'm sorry, it's beyond broken.
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