-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource XY NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
- Status
Well i very rarely see dark types and if i do, they are far too easy to deal with that i don't even consider them a threat. But point of the matter, mushy sets up on and sweeps half the tier...
Sturdy rock polish WP set ? maybe ? cant think of much else besides that set that isnt outclassed completely by Steelix
Golem's main competition is Rhydon, not Steelix, (the Fire-resist is key). That being said, Golem is just an inferior Rhydon unless you absolutely need Explosion or Sucker Punch (or 5 Extra Base Speed). Its a better suicide lead then Rhydon too I guess? But overall I agree with this dropping down to at least C, just not all that relevant since Rhydon is a thing in NU this gen.
I would like to push Golurk for B+. Base 124 attack with STAB Ground/Ghost coverage is not to be underestimated, especially by NU standards. Although it requires some prediction now and then (Levitate users like Mismagius and Rotom) not much can switch in safely without taking a lot of damage. It gets Stealth Rock too, which makes it a great choice for offensive teams as you don't need to run something else as your SR setter.
But what I like most about Golurk is how customizable it is. You can run almost every item on it: Leftovers, Lum, Focus Sash, Colbur, Scarf, CB, LO, AV and so on, and you have access to all the elemental punches with an Iron Fist boost and a huge Attack stat. Golurk even blocks Electric, Normal, Fighting attacks and Rapid Spin for your trouble. Its only real flaws are mediocre speed and having quite a few weaknesses. It's just a really good mon and I feel like B rank doesn't give it enough credit, especially when you see stuff like Rhydon and Crustle in the A ranks when Golurk has so many perks over them as a SR setter.
But what I like most about Golurk is how customizable it is. You can run almost every item on it: Leftovers, Lum, Focus Sash, Colbur, Scarf, CB, LO, AV and so on, and you have access to all the elemental punches with an Iron Fist boost and a huge Attack stat. Golurk even blocks Electric, Normal, Fighting attacks and Rapid Spin for your trouble. Its only real flaws are mediocre speed and having quite a few weaknesses. It's just a really good mon and I feel like B rank doesn't give it enough credit, especially when you see stuff like Rhydon and Crustle in the A ranks when Golurk has so many perks over them as a SR setter.
While on paper, it has so many cool niches and things that you could do with golurk, it doesn't quite live up to expectation when you use him I find. I find the speed crippling too much for the fact that you'd need to run max, even then it's outsped by a lot of things in the tier including pawniard. You'd need to use a scarf for him to fit on hyper offense or he is just outsped by too many things and even if it does outspeed, it is still killed by the likes of sucker punch, aqua jet, ice shard, shadow sneak, almost every type of priority going. Not to mention when gatr comes in, it pressures golurk to switch out which allows oppurtunities of setting up allowing pressure for your team. I do think that it allows some cool niches however, i think it shouldn't be moved up, I've not been too impressed by it of recent.
sg edit: rip bw2 golurk
Last edited by a moderator:
I mean i guess you can run rock polish in HO or sub +3att for sucker punch, or power up punch for an AV set. Also there s No Guard which i know many people dont like but can be pretty effective with dynamic punch. Its still as good on papermas it is in practice but its rather the fact that it has too many common weaknessess that limit him just like teddeh said with Gatr,lili can pressure him out too, seismitoad can handle it despite golurks nice bulk, Typh, Scept, CM puff, rain HO and many more can setup upon the forced switch or one shot it.
Have to agree with Teddeh as even golurks best set can be outdone by other mons like toad ormrhydon and its only real nichen (no guard dynamic punch, stone edge) is disliked by many. Also best ghost type stab is shadow ounch with a weak 60 base power so it makds him rely on EQ too much for my liking.
I really don't get why Feraligatr is even being considered for dropping. Spikestacking is such an awesome play style in this tier and Feraligatr fits in that play style perfectly to the point that it can easily be slapped into any team that uses that strategy and do incredible work. It is true of course that the meta has a bit adapted to it with Ferroseed rising in popularity (a ridiculously easy Mon to exploit with xatu or even with HP fire probopass or superpower/substitute variant) and such but Feraligatr can still break through a lot of its checks in virtue of its bulk+they don't have reliable recovery. Not to mention that its checks in more offensive teams in Sceptile and Lilligant are absolutely trashed by a Dragon Dance variant. feraligatr should stay S.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
just gonna post these calcs for now, i'll add in some thoughts on miltank when i get back from work. I seriously don't know why people keep hyping this thing so much lol.
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
just gonna post these calcs for now, i'll add in some thoughts on miltank when i get back from work. I seriously don't know why people keep hyping this thing so much lol.
Am I the only person who doesn't think Kiyo used a Fire-Type attack in his calcs..?
Miltank shouldn't move up because it is outclassed. A Normal-Type cleric and wall it is outclassed by Audino and even Lickilicky. Offensive Normal-Type it is outclassed by a huge number of things, from Tauros to Zangoose.
Miltank is a jack of all trades, decent at things, but not amazing in any of them so it is completely outclassed at everything it does. That's why it should be low. It's not awful, though, so C- is a good place for it.
(I didn't check, is it C-? If not, then it should be)
Miltank shouldn't move up because it is outclassed. A Normal-Type cleric and wall it is outclassed by Audino and even Lickilicky. Offensive Normal-Type it is outclassed by a huge number of things, from Tauros to Zangoose.
Miltank is a jack of all trades, decent at things, but not amazing in any of them so it is completely outclassed at everything it does. That's why it should be low. It's not awful, though, so C- is a good place for it.
(I didn't check, is it C-? If not, then it should be)
Last edited:
Um, thick fat doesn't affect focus blast damage smfh
My bad, totally derped out on that one. I just assumed that it was eruption in the calc. Anyways, psychic / grass coverage is generally better than focus blast imo, but it's certainly a good move.
The reason why miltank is so low is because it has so many things that it can do but is outclassed in every retrospect. For example, checking fire types. Hariyama + altaria + dragalge all do a better job, if anything the idea you pitched most, thick fat miltank is the worst set. Sap sipper miltank is outclassed by sawsbuck and any physical grass type for your reasoning along with poison types such as dragalge, either way it's not the best reason to run this pokemon, it just adds a fighting weakness to balance + stall teams and lacks the power it needs for hyper offense or generally more offensive teams. Along with that, the only other niche it has is scrappy, but again is outclassed by kanga for the fact kanga has more power + priority that miltank could only dream of having. Not to mention the stats miltank offers are for a physically defensive pokemon however cannot check fire types or resist any common physical attackers, hence a pretty mediocre pokemon.
So in fact instead of suggesting for it to be moved up, after evaluating it i would even suggest to move it down to the D ranks of horror.
I mean, eruption, focus blast, hp grass, fire blast? common o.o
All I'm saying is that I prefer extrasensory. I've used both interchangeably.
It's still the second fastest SR setter in the meta and can double as a cleric. I've used the offensive set quite a bit and while it might seem outclassed by Kanga at first, it has distinctive advantages over it, mainly Stealth Rock and staying power thanks to Milk Drink. I think it's fine in C, but dropping to C- wouldn't be out of the question either.
Speaking of C-ranks, I'd like to make a suggestion of Zweilous to C+. It's obviously a powerful wallbreaker with Choice Band, to the point where almost no pokemon in the tier can switch into the set (yea it misses but who cares when if you hit you destroy everything). It can utilize its unique typing with an Offensive Tank set that can catch some of its checks off-guard and provide great defensive synergy for Bulky Offense teams while still hitting very hard thanks to Hustle being pretty much a Choice Band. And last but not least there's the specially defensive resttalk set that acts as a great check/counter to a ton of pokemon in the tier - Typhlosion, Pyroar, most Magmortar, Lilligant, most Mesprit, SubCM Uxie, Vivillon that aren't the bad ladder set, CM Xatu, Ludicolo, Musharna, Exeggutor, Ninetales and more. That's a pretty impressive list, it includes a lot of common wallbreakers and stallbreakers, making Zweilous an excelent addition to stall teams that are looking to cover weaknesses to some of these pokemon with limited team slots.
While neither of these sets is without flaws (Hustle being a bitch sometimes, no Leftovers on the spdef set etc), they make Zweilous fill unique niches in the metagame and its versatility differentiates the cute dragon enough to make it stand out from the C rank.
Speaking of C-ranks, I'd like to make a suggestion of Zweilous to C+. It's obviously a powerful wallbreaker with Choice Band, to the point where almost no pokemon in the tier can switch into the set (yea it misses but who cares when if you hit you destroy everything). It can utilize its unique typing with an Offensive Tank set that can catch some of its checks off-guard and provide great defensive synergy for Bulky Offense teams while still hitting very hard thanks to Hustle being pretty much a Choice Band. And last but not least there's the specially defensive resttalk set that acts as a great check/counter to a ton of pokemon in the tier - Typhlosion, Pyroar, most Magmortar, Lilligant, most Mesprit, SubCM Uxie, Vivillon that aren't the bad ladder set, CM Xatu, Ludicolo, Musharna, Exeggutor, Ninetales and more. That's a pretty impressive list, it includes a lot of common wallbreakers and stallbreakers, making Zweilous an excelent addition to stall teams that are looking to cover weaknesses to some of these pokemon with limited team slots.
While neither of these sets is without flaws (Hustle being a bitch sometimes, no Leftovers on the spdef set etc), they make Zweilous fill unique niches in the metagame and its versatility differentiates the cute dragon enough to make it stand out from the C rank.
Can we drop Golem at least? This thing's niche is Sucker Punch, Sturdy, omg Explosion but that's about it. Sturdy allows him to go fully offensive with the set and still tank any 1 attack, combined with the fact that he has strong priority, makes him a beast in hyper offensive metas where normal spam runs rampant and people just look for OHKOs everywhere. But that's not the case, people are scared to death of Kangaskhan, people always run bulky offense, and literally every other team has a water type and a grass type. I understand Golem has his place, but this meta isn't it. Maybe next tier shifts, man, but I don't see bulky Spikestack offense suddenly stop being the standard playstyle without some key mons leaving or ORAS letting us get some juicy drops from RU.
I didn't include fire type attacks because the set we were discussing was spdef thick fat miltank, i'm not going to list fire blast damage on rhydon when im trying to say typh can beat it. the whole point of coverage moves is to hit your counter/checks for neutral of super effective damage so i don't see how this is relevant. lol.
if miltank rises for any set it should be the moofensive set and imo it should rise no higher than C+ the only niches offensive miltank has over Kanga/Tauros/Zangoose is the speed tier and access to stealth rock and to a lesser extent milk drink. Kangaskhan and miltank are both pretty weak and the biggest reason you dont see miltank used is because kanga is just better with hazard support due to its priority and ability to run more coverage than sr offensive tank( hazards are somethign you'll need to get both to function well, neither mons are exactly wall breakers.) Miltank isn't that much bulkier than Kangaskhan in the first place either lol 95/105/70 compared to 105/80/80 so the bulk really shouldnt be an issue. the other problem I have with moofensive tank opposed to kanga is that tank gets straight OHKO'd by things like Typhlosion Pyroar Sawk etc. it's not like these pokemon aren't common leads either, on teams with Typhlosion I probably lead it ~40% of the time, where as kanga can at least weaken them with fake out before being forced out. milk drink is a cool option but its a momentum killer on an offensive mon like miltank imo, but i guess it could work ok on bulky offense? the other thing is if you're running moofensive you kinda have to choose between sap sipper and scrappy which is kinda cool i guess but i don't think i'd forgo hitting ghosts for an immunity. so i dont see that being a plus over kanga or tauros etc.
The spdef set doesn't even counter the things it's supposed to with max investment and thick fat as I showed above, the only notable things it does stop are cryogonal and ninetales, the latter of which isn't that common. I suppose a mono attacking curse set could be cool but I don't see it being viable when there are so many fighting types being used.
Standard Defensive tank with sap sipper is probably the most reliable set and does a decent job of what its supposed to do, sit there be fat and prevent grass type attacks. but I honestly only see that being useful if your team needs stealth rock, other wise i'd probably go with bouffalant.
tl;dr unless your team needs miltank to fill the role of a stealth rocker in addition to an offensive presence and/or a grass immunity you're probably better off choosing one of the other normal types in the tier so it deserves to stay right where it is in C and at the very best C+
i'm more than likely talking out my ass because i hate miltank, but i think these points are valid.
Id say yes only for the sp def set, still believe is not worth the trouble, been having bad luck lately
My only serious complaint about Zweilous is that all of its set rely on luck to be effective (to some degree). CB requires Hustle to not be a pain and actually hit, which arguably happens more often than not but still seem to mess you up when it matters the most and the SpD set that rely on Sleep Talk's 2/3 chance to not be useless (also more than half the time). I wouldn't mind it going to C+, but it's a bit more unreliable than things like SmallGeist and Kecleon honestly.
I won't argue it's effective though, it does do a bunch of things really well and certainly have a place on some teams. And while I haven't actually seen the SpD set at all this gen the CB set have shown itself enough.
Raticate E-->D+
I am aware that Pokemon like Swellow, and Zangoose outclass the little rodent. However just because a pokemon is outclassed, doesn't mean it's bad. With the tried and true stab guts boosted facade, access to Swords Dance, and an impressive 97 base speed, this little rodent is not messing around. It is completely eclisped by Swellow, but has a couple of niches over Zangoose: Access to U-Turn and a higher base speed. It is the only stab guts facade user that isn't on the viability rankings. Also it has good priority in either quick attack or sucker punch (i prefer sucker punch personally to help with coverage). While I am aware it is not the best guts facade user, it does not deserve to stay E rank. Also it can run a banded hustle set, but that set it much less viable than the standard guts set, and is also completely outclassed by Zweilous.
I am aware that Pokemon like Swellow, and Zangoose outclass the little rodent. However just because a pokemon is outclassed, doesn't mean it's bad. With the tried and true stab guts boosted facade, access to Swords Dance, and an impressive 97 base speed, this little rodent is not messing around. It is completely eclisped by Swellow, but has a couple of niches over Zangoose: Access to U-Turn and a higher base speed. It is the only stab guts facade user that isn't on the viability rankings. Also it has good priority in either quick attack or sucker punch (i prefer sucker punch personally to help with coverage). While I am aware it is not the best guts facade user, it does not deserve to stay E rank. Also it can run a banded hustle set, but that set it much less viable than the standard guts set, and is also completely outclassed by Zweilous.
Raticate is completely outclassed by Swellow and Quick Feet Ursaring since Rat is slower and weaker than them, and has literally nothing to set itself apart from the two. Hustle as you said is done better by Zweilous which actually breaks everything, unlike Rat. Illumise isn't bad either but the fact that it is eclipsed by (an)other Pokemon in the tier means there is really no reason you should ever use it unless you want to handicap yourself; same with Raticate.
What sets itself apart from Swellow is it's ability to set up with Swords Dance and the thing that avoids it becoming entirely outclassed by over Quick Feet Ursaring is U-Turn. Raticate has a slight niche over each of the main facade users (Zangoose, Ursaring, Swellow). The only set that gets completely eclipsed and there is literally no reason to use is its banded hustle set, which has nothing at all to set itself apart from Zweilous. And to be fair punch, quite a few mons D-Rank are pokemon that are eclisped by Pokemon higher in the viabilty rankings (e.g. Armaldo and Kabutops, Huntail and Gorebyss, Butterfree and Vivillon) so that argument is pretty illogical unless you are advocating all of them get taken off the viability rankings.
Even if D+ is a little lenient, this Pokemon does deserve a spot on the viability rankings.
- Status