Tiering thoughts until ORAS

[Jukain]

Then ban GeoPass, whatever. I am simply stating that the answer is not banning BP, it is banning the broken element.

 

[AM]

So.......the problem is obviously not the receiver, it's the provider. In all these cases, in every single replay and battle we've all seen, what is the link to these mons that is providing all these sweeps at the end? Smeargle. I'm not saying that we should ban Smeargle but considering this is the thing that is passing an atrocious amount of boosts in a matter of 2-3 turns is obviously saying something. If anything about BP needs to be addressed it has to be that, and by that I mean the providers that allow these things to actually floor teams easily.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Ok well I understand the desire to keep baton pass in the game, so I guess if we really look at the broken/uncompetitive elements it comes down to geomancy/cotton guard smeargle or iron defense scolipede, with a calm mind stored power psychic type(as the receiver).

So I guess if we ban smeargle from using any boosting moves and ban scolipede from having speed boost+baton pass, we should be good, but that is just what I can think of, I just really fear that the problem will just keep coming back. I have no issues banning smeargle, or hell even scolipede for that matter, I just want it all to stop.

 

[Reymedy]

Banning the move Baton Pass is a nonsense and I'm pretty sure that you're wasting time here trying to make a point about it being broken.
I agree that the team archetype we're all talking about is retarded, and honestly it pissed me off a couple of times on the ladder. You have more room for plays though, than against the full Baton Pass teams.
However, Baton Pass is an interesting, and competitive move in its own right so there is no reason to request a ban like that. It's like banning Adaptability instead of banning Lucarionite. It's not a fair ban.

If you ban BP + Geo, then they'll just play play White Herb + Smash Pass and that's gonna be it. It will barely be an improvement.
Don't get me wrong, I have a really poor esteem of the players using this cheap strategy, but given that it's now easier to play around, I'd say let them be.

Just like Stall, people use it to avoid the high unpredictability of the lower ladder. I don't think that the win rate is that high when it comes to the upper ladder. As for the people who get spots in top 8 thanks to this team, well, I guess it'll make the playoffs easier for the others.

What about you reveal who used this strategy ? I'm genuinely curious.
(and I think that spreading this information makes everything better, when they'll realize that you don't get any respect from the community by playing dirty, they may quit using it)

PS : Banning [moves boosting 3 stats] + [Baton Pass] may be an option. But, SmashPass is in BW, and it died. So I don't know just how needed is this ban.
EDIT : Okay I've found the first one I guess. Lasszao
I should have knew, 1 post, joined last Friday. Lmfao.
JohnYiu
teso24
dEnIsSsS obviously.
Havor
FlamingVictini

So actually, a shocking total of 6 random users so far. 2 users with 1 post (the one in the OLT thread) and if you don't count denissss the 5 other users barely gather 20 posts.

 

[Clone]

I'm glad WCAR brought up BP. He said what everyone is thinking, which is that BP is cancer and we need to remove this cancer. I like analogies, and I'll be comparing BP to cancer.

Baton Pass is the cancer of this meta, figuratively speaking. The playstyle brings no positives and only negatives. It doesn't keep anything in check while being balanced itself. I think most of this we can agree on. So if Baton Pass is cancer, then the most logical decision is to remove this cancer to make the meta healthy once more.

So now I'll go back to the analogy. In real life, as most of us know, cancer is a serious problem that needs to be remedied sooner than later. You can try all these different things to try and fix it without resorting to chemo, such as experimental treatments (complex ban #1, limit BP to only three members). If that doesn't work you take more drastic measures, such as surgical removal of the tumor (complex ban #2, limit BP to only one mon per team). And what happens when that doesn't work? You have to go down the final route, which is chemotherapy itself. As many of us know, chemotherapy has some serious drawbacks such as hair loss and other things of the like; basically collateral damage. But it removes the cancer. And that's the most important thing.

So now I'll go back to BP. We've tried complex bans to rectify this problem, and every time BP has bounced back. When we originally nerfed it to three mons, you started to see Scolipede + Smeargle + Espeon + Clef + support. That was obviously a problem, so the council went ahead and decided to Nerf it to one mon, which is what we have now. Now we have memento screen geopass, which is still a problem. aim, one of the best players in the game, was high up on the ladder when he encountered a team with three mons. This team beat him. Aim wasn't outplayed. He got a low roll with his Garchomp that cost him the game Smeargle was able to pass to Espeon which led to a sweep. When something like this happens, it's clear that there is an issue, and the only way to remedy this is to ban Baton Pass itself. To resort to chemotherapy. Yes, there will be collateral damage. The meta will lose some of it's hairs, like Nasty Pass Celebi / Togekiss or SD Pass Scizor. But that is a price we must pay if we want to remove this cancer from the meta.

I realize that many are against a blanket ban of BP, but it needs to go. Complex bans won't solve the issue. If people wanna be carcinogens, then they'll find a way to infect the meta with cancer. dEnIsSsS was the one who standardized BP, and even he said it needed to go in his glorious pass RMT all those months ago. The creator of the chain itself realized that it would be a problem even if it was limited. As Long as BP remains, someone will find a way to exploit it. And then the issue will rise again that will lead to more problems. I realize this is a slippery slope, but I'm stating this because this is exactly what has happened. We tried to get rid of the problem without creating collateral damage, and it didn't rectify the situation. The cancer came back. The only true way to get rid of the problem is to remove the source. To go through with chemotherapy. To ban BP itself.

And I'd like to bring up what Reymedy said about mega Luke and Adaptability. Aside from the obvious fact that Mega Luke can't function withou it's only ability, there's the fact that what you're saying is the complete opposite of this situation. Luke himself was the problem, so we banned him. Blaziken himself was the problem, so we banned him instead of Speed Boost + Blaziken. We have to ban the problem itself and not try to go about with dozens of complex bans to reach the same goal.

We shouldn't leave something in the game just so it can be used on a few specific, non cancerous sets. Yes, those legitimate sets won't be functional any more. But the thing is, that's a small price to pay to cure the meta. That's the hair loss from chemo. The meta will bounce back and recover from the ban of BP, just like a person will regrow his hair after chemo. We have to remove the problem at its source, and the only way to do so is to ban Baton Pass.

 

[Reymedy]

No offense but you talk alot for not much and I don't think that you really know what you're talking about.
Luke was an example, don't take it out of context. It could go a with dozen of other examples.

And you're wrong, Blaziken was NOT the problem : it was Blaziken + Speed Boost. We could have banned Speed Boost, and Blaziken, to give you an idea, would have been UU at best.

I just wanted to make it clear, so you don't turn my post into a joke.

 

[Clone]

No offense but you talk alot for not much and I don't if you really know what you're talking about.

I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't know what I was talking about. You seem to have missed the point of my entire post.

Luke was an example, don't take it out of context. It could go a with dozen of other examples.

I know it was just an example. And it wasn't a very good one. It really doesn't compare to BP in that luke is a mon, and BP is a move that spearheads a cancerous playstyle.

And you're wrong, Blaziken was NOT the problem : it was Blaziken + Speed Boost. We could have banned Speed Boost, and Blaziken, to give you an idea, would have been UU at best.

So I guess Darkrai would be fine if we were to ban Darkrai + Dark Void. Or to ban Genesect + U-Turn. If it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, I'm gonna call it a duck. Complex bans were never Smogons thin so idk why the heck ours even sayin this, lol.

I just wanted to make it clear, so you don't turn my post into a joke.

I wasn't even doing that. If anything you tried to do the same with mine.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

And I'd like to bring up what Reymedy said about mega Luke and Adaptability. Aside from the obvious fact that Mega Luke can't function withou it's only ability, there's the fact that what you're saying is the complete opposite of this situation. Luke himself was the problem, so we banned him. Blaziken himself was the problem, so we banned him instead of Speed Boost + Blaziken. We have to ban the problem itself and not try to go about with dozens of complex bans to reach the same goal.

Not taking an official stance on this just yet, but I'd just like to point out that I do not believe that a complex ban regarding Baton Pass would be the same as banning Blaziken + Speed Boost. Yes, Blaziken was the problem. It was a Pokemon whose inherent qualities (movepool, stats, ability, typing, etc.) all added up to create a very broken piece of the metagame. Baton Pass is different. Baton Pass is not broken by virtue of its inherent qualities (which are basically just PP and its effect since it has no BP or accuracy). It is only when paired with specific boosting moves/abilities (usually on very specific Pokemon) and when paired with the right receiver that it becomes a problem. These are all external factors that must be utilized correctly alongside Baton Pass, whereas Blaziken was banned as a whole due to the many internal factors that were inherently a part of its being as a Pokemon. It's similar in nature to the DrizzleSwim ban of BW OU; neither Swift Swim nor Drizzle seemed broken at the time on their own (although some might debate the Drizzle point nowadays), but the combination of the two was the problem.

Now, would outright banning Baton Pass still be an option? The way I see it, most certainly. After all, we did ban Swagger outright rather than banning it in combination with Foul Play or anything of the sort, even though some might argue that it wasn't so much Swagger by itself but the way it was being built around and abused that made it unbearable. However, my point is simply that creating a complex ban in order to deal with Baton Pass would not be the same as creating a complex ban to nerf Blaziken and company. I think we can leave that option on the table without worrying about opening up a new can of worms (besides the cans we've already opened up).

EDIT:

replied in the quote, but whats the point of this sub forum already

Dude, you're literally the only one here who is acting against the spirit of this sub-forum. Regardless of whether or not you agree with Clone's points, he was approved by the mods to post here for a reason, and he put a lot of thought and effort into that post. And you're just going to dismiss it as "Bah, you just don't know what you're talking about"? That completely goes against why this sub-forum was created in the first place: to foster quality discussion among established members of the OU competitive community. If you don't want to debate Clone's arguments in detail, then just don't respond, rather than create one-liners about how he doesn't know what he's doing and how he's just misunderstanding your arguments. I'm sorry, but that's lazy.

 

[Reymedy]

I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't know what I was talking about. You seem to have missed the point of my entire post.

Well I'm sorry but from what I've seen, you don't know what you're talking about. And that's pretty obvious when you mention older generations.

I know it was just an example. And it wasn't a very good one. It really doesn't compare to BP in that luke is a mon, and BP is a move that spearheads a cancerous playstyle.

So does Geomancy.

So I guess Darkrai would be fine if we were to ban Darkrai + Dark Void. Or to ban Genesect + U-Turn. If it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, I'm gonna call it a duck. Complex bans were never Smogons thin so idk why the heck ours even sayin this, lol.

You're lost, I didn't argue for a Blaziken unban so you're wasting your time (and mine) by trying to make fun of complex banning. You'll be probably surprised to learn that back in ADV days, Smeargle + Ingrain was banned.

I wasn't even doing that. If anything you tried to do the same with mine.

replied in the quote

 

[alexwolf]

Blaziken himself was the problem, so we banned him instead of Speed Boost + Blaziken. We have to ban the problem itself and not try to go about with dozens of complex bans to reach the same goal.

We banned Blaziken because it was a Pokemon, and Pokemon bans are our first option when it comes to dealing with problems and making bans. However, when we are talking about moves, it's a completely different matter. It can't be argued that there are a lot of Pokemon using Baton Pass without being broken, such as Celebi, Mega Medicham, Togekiss, Mega Absol, Gliscor, Hawlucha, and a few more niche Pokemon. And when it comes to moves, Smogon has set the precedent that they are blanket banned only when they are broken on every Pokemon that gets them, such as Swagger. Seeing as how this isn't the case with Baton Pass, a complex ban is a better option. However, with which complex ban to go is a really difficult decision. Preventing any Pokemon with three / four (depends on if you want Scolipede to be able to pass +2 Def / +1 Spe and Smeargle to pass +3 Defense to a teammate or not) or more boosts to its stats from using Baton Pass seems as the best solution, and with this ban we don't even need the ''no more than 1 Baton Pass users on each team'' clause. This way, stat boosters can't accumulate a ridiculous amount of boosts and pass it to a teammate, making dealing with the receiver much easier and manageable, even if you don't have specific countermeasures. This ban seems to solve all problems, Scolipede + Espeon, full Baton Pass chains, GeoPass Smeargle, etc, i just don't know if such a ban is easy to enforce in the simulators.

 

[alexwolf]

Hai :3 As seen from my low post count, I'm new here. I would like to discuss the move Baton Pass and why I think it deserves to get a suspect.

Baton pass is the most stupid, and brainless strategy out there today. BP is extremely match up reliant, and if your team doesn't have anything to beat it, you auto lose right from the start. This isn't like anything else where if you dont necessarily have a counter to it, you can still beat it by playing well and not allowing it to set up or pressuring it everytime it comes in. Baton pass is different, you either lose or win right from team preview. BP takes no skill to use at all. People with no knowledge of the metagame can easily ladder up to 1800+ with the standard BP team if they dont get haxed. Smogon is supposed to be competitive, which means that the better player is supposed to win the majority of the time. Baton pass completely invalidates this because it allows bad players to beat good players. A good player who has a bad match up because he can't beat BP will automatically lose,simple as that. So why are we still allowing this bullshit?

I'm not saying that BP is unbeatable by any means whatsoever. I don't wanna suspect BP because its necessarily broken, I want it gone because its uncompetitive. It's literal cancer everytime you play it. Yeah, anyone can 6-0 BP by using shed shell amoongus, but who gives a shit? That doesn't make it any less competitive. It's a horrible strategy that lets shitty ass players beat good players, and we should not be promoting that as a community. UU has done a stupid move imo by banning geomancy because the smeargle + espeon combo was too powerful for the tier. In a similar vein, venomoth is banned from UU because of its "broke quiverpassing bullshit." UU didn't have to ban geomancy; they could've put a blanket ban on the move baton pass and have that shit all over with. If UU isn't allowing BP why should we? It's still cancer and uncompetitive BS no matter what tier its in.

For all these reasons, I would like to support a blanket ban on the move baton pass. That's what we shouldve done right from the start, but we didn't. Instead we did a complex ban, and where did that lead us? Nowhere. We soon arrived to the conclusion that BP is still broken, and did yet another complex ban. And look where that leaves us now. Fuck all the complex ban BS, just ban the move. For example, if you ban geomancy, people will still figure out ways how to abuse the shitty strategy that is BP. Scoli + CM espeon will still be cancer to face, or people will use other shit like venomoth + espeon, which is why a complex ban wont suffice. Just suspect the move please. Honestly, theres no lateral damage involved anyway except for BP celebi, but who gives a shit? If we had a blanket ban on the move Swagger than Baton Pass should be banned in its entirety as well.

And before you guys go, "oh, no tour players use BP and ladder is shit anyway so idgaf about BP", something doesn't have to be common in order for it to be banned. In gen 4, wobbuffet was barely used at all (it was like #50 in usage), but after user: imperfectluck got all 5 of his alts in the top 5 of the ladder, wobb was deemed too uncompetitive for OU, and thus it was banned. Usage does not indicate brokenness. Another thing, the Official Ladder Tourney was created to restore the prestige of the ladder and to promote overall ladder quality. When two (im sure there's a little more than 2 but im not completely sure) of the people who qualified already got to the top 8 spot, how in the hell is that "promoting overall ladder quality"? If anything, it shows you how much ladder is a joke because you don't need to be good at the game or have any knowledge of the metagame whatsoever, you can just abuse cancer strategies to get a high ranking. Baton pass is significantly lowering the overall quality of the ladder, and im sure its one of the reasons why many established players consider ladder a joke.

I'd like for you guys to imagine a scenario I'm sure for some is all too familiar. You're grinding on the ladder one day for the OLT, and get to lets say, 1940, high enough for you to secure the #6 spot, so you stop for the night. Next day, you decide to just play one game so you don't decay and lose points. You're matched up with some no name player using a BP team, and an instant feeling of dread fills you as you realize you have a bad matchup and will probably lose unless you get super lucky. You play as well as you can, but the combination of screens, memento, and tailwind support prove to be too much for you as now you cannot prevent smeargle from setting up circles around you. Seconds later, espeon sweeps your team, and your rating drops 32 points, into the 1900s. Suddenly, you find yourself at #10, missing the cutoff for OLT playoffs. And all this because some shitty player thought it'd be funny to troll the ladder with a BP team.

I'm sure a lot of you guys have experienced this. I know Valentine, a very good player, was something like 21-0 on the ladder, and then his first loss was to a BP team. I'm positive that many other good players have experienced this as well. It's stupid why its still allowed, and we have nothing to lose from just outright banning the move.

As a final point, I know many of you are probably thinking "Baton pass wasnt a problem for earlier gens so i dont see why we should ban it now". Fact is, baton pass WAS a problem in earlier gens. Its just as match up dependent, just as skill less and brain dead to use, just as cancer, just as uncompetitive, and anybody who used it was immediately seen as a joke. So why is it only addressed this gen? It's because a lot of new players are using it and spamming the ladder with it. They saw some "ladder god" (i really don't wanna say that ladderers are bad, but when you're ranked high with no knowledge of the metagame, theres a problem) peak #1 with it for numerous months and thought, "oh hey, i could totally copy this guy's team and peak #1 too!" because thats what new players do: they steal teams from other people and try to copy them. And in doing so, spamming the ladder with BP has made laddering much less interesting for many individuals.

Suspect baton pass pls, thnx n_n

This is a response from Talenheim, but i am posting it because he lacks VR access:

While I mostly agree with you, I have to say a couple of things. First, a lot of teams consider BP while teambuilding, and as such have a way to beat it. Second, there is SOME skill involved to playing BP. And third, even if you're not carrying an answer to BP, smart play can still beat it. However, your main point still stands: BP allows players who know when to taunt and when not to to beat players waay above their skill level, which is basically the definition of uncompetitive (see: SwagPlay). However, I oppose a blanket ban on BP, the main reason being that it's not BP itself that's the problem, but dEnIsSsS' team. There is also more lateral damage than you let on; yes, there's BP Celebi, but Scoliopede will also become unviable, as well as seriously hurting the viability of Smeargle and Espeon, and shuts down cool innovations like SubPass Regenerator Mienshao, among other things. Therefore, I support one of two different complex bans: The first, which is much more ambitious, is banning Smeargle + Espeon on the same team. By doing so, Dennis' team can no longer function, while having no lateral damage (what team uses dual screens espeon + smeargle?). This also keeps GeoPass as an option, for the teams that use it yet aren't centralized around it. The second, which is less ambitious and more practical, is banning Smeargle + Geomancy, like UU did. While not destroying Dennis' team, it forces it to use QuickPass, which is much more handle-able. And, Dennis being Dennis, he will find a way to still make a BP-centric viable team, but this time, I'd bet money that it would require actual skill to pull off. This has more lateral damage than the first option, but it only affects teams that use GeoPass yet aren't centered around it which I'm pretty sure is still less lateral damage than the blanket ban.

tl;dr dismantle Dennis' team while still allowing Baton Pass, nominating Smeargle + Espeon on the same team and Smeargle + geomancy as possible complex bans.

Aside: Give Dennis a break. The fact that it takes no skill was probably the last thing on his mind, as was an unintended side affect. Don't blame him.

 

[haunter]

This is a response from Talenheim, but i am posting it because he lacks VR access:

If you're posting on his behalf, then that's a good indicator that he's qualified for posting here himself, so I'm giving him access.

Also, it's my opinion that we shoouldn't be resorting to more complex bans in order to prevent Baton Pass from being effective on the ladder. If, after restricting its use to only one Pokémon (emphasis on IF), Baton Pass teams are still broken, then we should probably opt for a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass. Complex bans constitute an extreme and exceptional measure that should be resorted to only in order to save important elements of the game that, whithout said measure, would result broken/uncompetitive.

According to what I've seen on the ladder in the last 4 months or so, the move Baton Pass is barely (if ever) used outside of the infamous Geo-Pass Smeargle+Espeon core and it's my understanding that Baton Pass teams aren't used at all in official tournaments cause people who use them are stigmatized as lame/skill-less. I think I've seen a few dry passing Celebi lately, but that's frankly not enough for me to support a complex ban on Baton Pass. At this point, if we decided that Baton Pass is still a problem, I'd probably support a simple blanket ban of the move Baton Pass.

Tagging Reverb so that he can share his opinion, cause I know that he's very adamant about banning Baton Pass as a whole.

 

[atomicllamas]

If you're posting on his behalf, then that's a good indicator that he's qualified for posting here himself, so I'm giving him access.

Also, it's my opinion that we shoouldn't be resorting to more complex bans in order to prevent Baton Pass from being effective on the ladder. If, after restricting its use to only one Pokémon (emphasis on IF), Baton Pass teams are still broken, then we should probably opt for a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass. Complex bans constitute an extreme and exceptional measure that should be resorted to only in order to save important elements of the game that, whithout said measure, would result broken/uncompetitive.

According to what I've seen on the ladder in the last 4 months or so, the move Baton Pass is barely (if ever) used outside of the infamous Geo-Pass Smeargle+Espeon core and it's my understanding that Baton Pass teams aren't used at all in official tournaments cause people who use them are stigmatized as lame/skill-less. I think I've seen a few dry passing Celebi lately, but that's frankly not enough for me to support a complex ban on Baton Pass. At this point, if we decided that Baton Pass is still a problem, I'd probably support a simple blanket ban of the move Baton Pass.

Tagging Reverb so that he can share his opinion, cause I know that he's very adamant about banning Baton Pass as a whole.

If the problem is geo-pass wouldn't the best solution be to ban Geomancy, a move which is broken on every Pokemon that gets it (if geo pass is found to be a problem).

I don't really think I can get behind banning a move which isn't uncompetitive (it doesn't remove autonomy from the game, unlike swagger, which made the game a series of coin flips), when the move in question isn't broken on every Pokemon that gets it. Alternatively, since the only time I've heard of people complaining about BP is when it is used by Smeargle or Scolipede, wouldn't banning either/both of these Pokemon (depending on if either is found to be broken) be the best solution? That ban wouldn't be complex and it also wouldn't ban things that aren't broken (see BP Celebi Cham etc.). I know someone is going to say, "but Smeargle and Scolipede are balanced without BP." But if they are broken with BP, and have BP, then they are by definition broken Pokemon. Which is why I voted to ban Liepard in BW2 NU and not that stupid Prankster + Assist ban that ended up being implemented. And it's the same reason no one is proposing we unban Darkrai without Dark Void. If Pokemon + Move = broken, and the Pokemon gets that move, then that Pokemon is broken and should be banned.

 

[Calloflochie]

If the problem is geo-pass wouldn't the best solution be to ban Geomancy, a move which is broken on every Pokemon that gets it (if geo pass is found to be a problem).

I don't really think I can get behind banning a move which isn't uncompetitive (it doesn't remove autonomy from the game, unlike swagger, which made the game a series of coin flips), when the move in question isn't broken on every Pokemon that gets it. Alternatively, since the only time I've heard of people complaining about BP is when it is used by Smeargle or Scolipede, wouldn't banning either/both of these Pokemon (depending on if either is found to be broken) be the best solution? That ban wouldn't be complex and it also wouldn't ban things that aren't broken (see BP Celebi Chan etc.). I know someone is going to say, "but Smeargle and Scolipede are balanced without BP." But if they are broken with BP, and have BP, then they are by definition broken Pokemon. Which is why I voted to ban Liepard in BW2 NU and not that stupid Prankster + Assist ban that ended up being implemented. And it's the same reason no one is proposing we unban Darkrai without Dark Void. If Pokemon + Move = broken, and the Pokemon gets that move, then that Pokemon is broken and should be banned.

But the difference with this logic is, Scolipede isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass and Smeargle isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass the Geomancy boost. Why ban two Pokemon from being used when the only common problem that is broken about them is being able to Baton Pass their boosts to a better Pokemon? (Espeon, Sylveon, Togekiss).
Also, the 'we don't want to affect stuff like Celebi' needs to stop. I don't even play OU and I know that Celebi is completely irrelevant, it's not like we're completely ruining a Pokemon by banning that when in reality;
| 65 | Celebi | 1.53929% | 39060 | 0.912% | 31655 | 0.925% |
That is Celebi's usage and I guarantee that Baton Pass isn't gonna be an extremely common move on it anyway.

Now I know, 'why listen to this (BAN ME PLEASE), he tried to sabotage OU by voting no ban on Baton Pass!!!' Well no, I didn't think any of the options presented fixed the problem and low and behold, it didn't. So let's just do what should have been done many, many months ago and ban Baton Pass because it is the sole cause of these issues, not Scolipede, not Smeargle, not Espeon, it is Baton Pass.

 

[alexwolf]

But the difference with this logic is, Scolipede isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass and Smeargle isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass the Geomancy boost. Why ban two Pokemon from being used when the only common problem that is broken about them is being able to Baton Pass their boosts to a better Pokemon? (Espeon, Sylveon, Togekiss).
Also, the 'we don't want to affect stuff like Celebi' needs to stop. I don't even play OU and I know that Celebi is completely irrelevant, it's not like we're completely ruining a Pokemon by banning that when in reality;
| 65 | Celebi | 1.53929% | 39060 | 0.912% | 31655 | 0.925% |
That is Celebi's usage and I guarantee that Baton Pass isn't gonna be an extremely common move on it anyway.

Now I know, 'why listen to this (BAN ME PLEASE), he tried to sabotage OU by voting no ban on Baton Pass!!!' Well no, I didn't think any of the options presented fixed the problem and low and behold, it didn't. So let's just do what should have been done many, many months ago and ban Baton Pass because it is the sole cause of these issues, not Scolipede, not Smeargle, not Espeon, it is Baton Pass.

Usage isn't a good indicator of viability and you know it. Baton Pass is one of Celebi's best moves, because it allows defensive sets to escape from Bisharp and get momentum, or make Celebi threatening by passing NP / CM boosts to teammates. By the same logic you used (why remove two viable Pokemon), why limit the potential of several OU viable Pokemon by banning Baton Pass?

As for when complex bans are justifiable, to me the answer is pretty simple, they are justified in very complex situations where no other solution fixes the problem without creating an other one, and where the complex ban fixes the problem without any collateral. Even if Baton Pass is not a very important move in the OU metagame, it is needless to prevent its use on non broken sets, when we have a completely harmless alternative.

So, banning moves that are not broken on every Pokemon has never been done before, sets a dangerous precedent, and removes non broken sets from OU, while resorting to complex bans about complex situations has been done before, not to mention that unlike some other complex bans (Aldaron's ban), the complex ban i suggested (Baton Pass can't be used if a Pokemon has 3 / 4 or more boosts) has no negative implications outside of being a complex ban, assuming it's possible to enforce on simulators.

 

[atomicllamas]

But the difference with this logic is, Scolipede isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass and Smeargle isn't broken if it can't Baton Pass the Geomancy boost. Why ban two Pokemon from being used when the only common problem that is broken about them is being able to Baton Pass their boosts to a better Pokemon? (Espeon, Sylveon, Togekiss).
Also, the 'we don't want to affect stuff like Celebi' needs to stop. I don't even play OU and I know that Celebi is completely irrelevant, it's not like we're completely ruining a Pokemon by banning that when in reality;
| 65 | Celebi | 1.53929% | 39060 | 0.912% | 31655 | 0.925% |
That is Celebi's usage and I guarantee that Baton Pass isn't gonna be an extremely common move on it anyway.

Now I know, 'why listen to this (BAN ME PLEASE), he tried to sabotage OU by voting no ban on Baton Pass!!!' Well no, I didn't think any of the options presented fixed the problem and low and behold, it didn't. So let's just do what should have been done many, many months ago and ban Baton Pass because it is the sole cause of these issues, not Scolipede, not Smeargle, not Espeon, it is Baton Pass.

Uhh, I'm not sure if you missed the part where I already addressed this, or if I didn't articulate my thoughts well enough. My point was exactly that if Smeargle and Scolipede are broken because of BP (and are balanced without it!) that the appropriate solution is to ban the Pokemon, not a move. I really don't care how rare BP Celebi is (you ignored Cham btw), you missed the point of what I am saying. Celebi and Medicham are balanced, viable BP users, a blanket ban on BP has just as much affect on the OU metagame as banning the pokemon. Before the BP craze, Scolopede was BL ("irrelevant" to OU) and Smeargle was a mediocre RU mon. Whats the point of saving these to pokemon? More importantly, Baton Pass isn't broken, just because a Pokemon has Baton Pass doesn't mean it is unbalanced (look at Celebi it's "irrelevant" in spite of having BP). Smogon's policy has always been, ban what's broken, not ban something you dislike, even if it isn't broken, in order to save two Pokemon.

A blanket baton pass ban has just as much collateral damage as a ban of two "otherwise balanced" Pokemon, and even more if you consider the impact on lower tiers.

 

[haunter]

I know someone is going to say, "but Smeargle and Scolipede are balanced without BP." But if they are broken with BP, and have BP, then they are by definition broken Pokemon.

That's just your opinion and while it's certainly respectable, it's not an axiom.

Which is why I voted to ban Liepard in BW2 NU and not that stupid Prankster + Assist ban that ended up being implemented. And it's the same reason no one is proposing we unban Darkrai without Dark Void. If Pokemon + Move = broken, and the Pokemon gets that move, then that Pokemon is broken and should be banned.

We chose to ban Swagger as a whole rather than banning every Pokémon that was "broken" with Swagger and Foul Play even though Swagger was unarguably non broken on slow, Prankster-less, Pokémon. Besides, as I said and as CallofLochie specified, banning Scolipede/Smeargle just to save BP Celebi isn't worth it.

As for those who're concerned about setting a "precedent" of banning non-broken moves, that's really a non issue. First of all, there is no binding precedent we're setting, nor we do abide by the stare decisis principle here on Smogon. Secondly, every ban/unban is gonna take place only if there's enough support from the community, no matter what the precedent is. Lastly, we trust our voters to be informed enough to not cast their vote only upon a precedent we have (or may have) set in the past.

 

[Calloflochie]

Usage isn't a good indicator of viability and you know it. Baton Pass is one of Celebi's best moves, because it allows defensive sets to escape from Bisharp and get momentum, or make Celebi threatening by passing NP / CM boosts to teammates. By the same logic you used (why remove two viable Pokemon), why limit the potential of several OU viable Pokemon by banning Baton Pass?

As for when complex bans are justifiable, to me the answer is pretty simple, they are justified in very complex situations where no other solution solves the problem without creating an other one, and where the complex ban solves the problem without any collateral. Even if Baton Pass is not a very important move in the OU metagame, it is needless to prevent its use on non broken sets, when we have a completely harmless alternative.

So, banning moves that are not broken on every Pokemon has never been done before, sets a dangerous precedent, and removes non broken sets from OU, while resorting to complex bans about complex situations has been done before, not to mention that unlike some other complex bans (Aldaron's ban), the complex ban i suggested (Baton Pass can't be used if a Pokemon has 3 / 4 or more boosts) has no negative implications outside of being a complex ban, assuming it's possible to enforce on simulators.

Having just checked usage as I was curious, the top 9 Pokemon are either S, A+ or A ranked. I know I can't draw the direct parallel that usage isn't an indicator of viability but statistics don't lie my friend. Forgive my ignorance on Celebi's most used sets in OU, I can see that NP pass is the only really viable thing Celebi has going for it but I digress. And several viable Pokemon? I see Mew (who doesn't run that ever), Gliscor (who I have also never seen run a Sub BP set or even SD BP set) and Togekiss (who if i'm being honest, I don't know what it runs but I would assume support Defog as opposed to Nasty Plot). So the only mons 'affected' by banning it don't even use it on the standard set that they run ?_?

Swagger wasn't broken on every single Pokemon. It was broken when used in tandem with Prankster but they didn't want to ban Prankster nor did they ban the Pokemon that had the ability Prankster. So it's not setting a 'dangerous' precedent and it doesn't immediately turn into insert slippery slope Uber being allowed back into OU because you aren't running a STAB or Dark Void or w/e. It's very easy to try and make that assumption but in reality, it has never happened when moves on Pokemon have been banned before, so why should it matter if it is done again with Baton Pass? Why should Pokemon that are potentially usable in lower tiers be banned as a result of one move? Why not ban the move that largely doesn't affect the OU metagame except by stopping the cancer that is Baton Pass? Idk, that's just my opinion, feel free to disagree but it seems like banning Baton Pass really doesn't do as much damage as you're claiming it would do.

Edit: Ofc the italian stole what i was saying, no surprises there he he bwoi
Edit2: Ofc I'm stupid n_n

 

[alexwolf]

We chose to ban Swagger as a whole rather than banning every Pokémon that was "broken" with Swagger and Foul Play even though Swagger was unarguably non broken on slow, Prankster-less, Pokémon. Besides, as I said and as CallofLochie specified, banning Scolipede/Smeargle just to save BP Celebi isn't worth it.

We blanket banned Swagger because it was uncompetitive on every single Pokemon that had access to it. Yeah, this uncompetitiveness was manifested by Prankster users, but there were zero negatives from preventing the use of Swagger on all Pokemon, because Swagger is completely irrelevant to OU outside of haxing the opponent to death, which is something we, as a competitive community, don't want. On the other hand, blanket banning Baton Pass has negative effects on the metagame, no matter how small they are, which can be avoided with a complex ban.

Calloflochie

Mega Medicham, Mega Scizor, Togekiss, and Celebi are all viable users of Baton Pass, as well as Mega Lopunny, which will be released in a few weeks.

 

[haunter]

We blanket banned Swagger because it was uncompetitive on every single Pokemon that had access to it. Yeah, this uncompetitiveness was manifested by Prankster users, but there were zero negatives from preventing the use of Swagger on all Pokemon, because Swagger is completely irrelevant to OU
outside of haxing the opponent to death, which is something we, as a competitive community, don't want. On the other hand, blanket banning Baton Pass has negative effects on the metagame, no matter how small they are, which can be avoided with a complex ban.

No, we blanket banned Swagger cause banning the Pokémon that were broken/uncompetitive with Swagger wasn't worth saving the few legit uses Swagplay had. Now, while Baton Pass outside of Geo-Pass has definitely more legitimate uses than Swagger on non-Prankster Pokémon, I still don't see why we should resort to complex bans in order to save a move that sees barely any usage outside of Geo-Pass abuse strategies. Again, don't tell me that it's to not set a "dangerous precedent" cause: 1) I've already dismissed that point and 2) what you perceive as "dangerous" is totally irrelevant.

 

[atomicllamas]

That's just your opinion and while it's certainly respectable, it's not an axiom. We chose to ban Swagger as a whole rather than banning every Pokémon that was "broken" with Swagger and Foul Play even though Swagger was unarguably non broken on slow, Prankster-less, Pokémon. Besides, as I said and as CallofLochie specified, banning Scolipede/Smeargle just to save BP Celebi isn't worth it.

As for those who're concerned about setting a "precedent" of banning non-broken moves, that's really a non issue. First of all, there is no binding precedent we're setting, nor we do abide by the stare decisis principle here on Smogon. Secondly, every ban/unban is gonna take place only if there's enough support from the community, no matter what the precedent is. Lastly, we trust our voters to be informed enough to not cast their vote only upon a precedent we have (or may have) set in the past.

alexwolf addressed the second part already, but the first statement you quoted isn't an opinion it is a fact, it can be proven deductively.

X Pokemon is broken with Y move.

X Pokemon has Y move.

X Pokemon is broken.

If you mean that me stating that banning the Pokemon is preferred is an opinion, well that's true. But banning BP doesn't just "ban BP Celebi from OU" it also bans BP Jolteon from RU and BP Gorebyss from NU. I know higher tiers shouldn't take lower tiers into account when banning stuff, but if there are two ways to ban something with equal effects on the OU metagame minimizing effects on other Smogon official metagames has to be desirable. Lets not pretend that BP Celebi is less OU relevant than hazards Smeargle, so idk what your point about that is.

No, we blanket banned Swagger cause banning the Pokémon that were broken/uncompetitive with Swagger wasn't worth saving the few legit uses Swagplay had. Now, while Baton Pass outside of Geo-Pass has definitely more legitimate uses than Swagger on non-Prankster Pokémon, I still don't see why we should resort to complex bans in order to save a move that sees barely any usage outside of Geo-Pass abuse strategies. Again, don't tell me that it's to not set a "dangerous precedent" cause: 1) I've already dismissed that point and 2) what you perceive as "dangerous" is totally irrelevant.

My proposal was also a simple ban though.

 

[alexwolf]

Haunter, you are right that the dangerous precedent is not a good argument and really minor in general, but my main argument against the blanket ban is the collateral damage it would cause. SwagPlay had zero legit uses outside of haxing the fuck out of the opponent, so i don't get what you are saying there.

 

[haunter]

alexwolf addressed the second part already, but the first statement you quoted isn't an opinion it is a fact, it can be proven deductively.

X Pokemon is broken with Y move.

X Pokemon has Y move.

X Pokemon is broken.

Or, you know, starting from the same premises you can deductively come to the following conclusion:

Move Y is broken.

That's exactly the case of Swagger on weak shit like Klefki.

If you mean that me stating that banning the Pokemon is preferred is an opinion, well that's true.

Exactly.

But banning BP doesn't just "ban BP Celebi from OU" it also bans BP Jolteon from RU and BP Gorebyss from NU. I know higher tiers shouldn't take lower tiers into account when banning stuff, but if there are two ways to ban something with equal effects on the OU metagame minimizing effects on other Smogon official metagames has to be desirable. Lets not pretend that BP Celebi is less OU relevant than hazards Smeargle, so idk what your point about that is.

Repercussions on lower tiers may indeed be a problem and probably an argument I'd keep into due consideration if we ever considered a blanket ban on BP.

My proposal was also a simple ban though.

That message wasn't directed at you.

alexwolf, so far the only collateral damage I see are the repercussions of the ban on lower tiers which is definitely a valid concern but, probably, not something that would prevent us from banning Baton Pass as a whole if there was enough support for such option.

 

[alexwolf]

Preventing Pokemon such as Mega Medicham, Togekiss, and Celebi from using Baton Pass is another downside, even if small. Not to mention that with Mega Lopunny soon getting released, Baton Pass may become even more popular in OU. And if a complex ban isn't happening, banning Scolipede and Smeargle is definitely a better course of action than banning Baton Pass.

 

[atomicllamas]

Or, you know, starting from the same premises you can deductively come to the following conclusion:

Move Y is broken.

That's actually inductive logic, cause you are stating Y is broken on X mon

Y is also broken on Z mon

Y is broken (on all mons) (see footnotes for why this is getting confusing, no one has defined what a broken move is yet, lol)

I mean I think there has been plenty of discussion about why baton pass itself isn't broken, ie. Celebi, Medicham, lower tier mons with it, etc. But lets do a quick experiment if everyone will humor me.

Experiment

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Sticky Web
- Magic Coat

I think we can all agree that this set isn't broken, in fact while it has a small niche, it isn't really even OU worthy.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Sticky Web
- Baton Pass

Adding Baton Pass to the above set makes it worse if anything, can you honestly say that Baton Pass makes Smeargle broken?

Smeargle @ Power Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Spore
- Geomancy / Cotton Guard

This is starting to look like the set that people have trouble with, if you think this is broken, isn't it safer to assume that Geomancy is the problem (I can back this ban, cause it would actually be broken on all things that get it). Cotton Guard is slashed to show that the order in which moves are added affects what "breaks" a Pokemon, because afaik no one things Cotton Guard Pass Smeargle is broken.

Smeargle @ Power Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Taunt / Spore
- Cotton Guard
- Geomancy

This is the set that people want to get rid of (correct me if I'm wrong, after all I don't have the greatest meta game knowledge). Its not really fair to say that Baton Pass is the cause of the set's brokenness when it as actually just this unique combination of moves that only Smeargle has access to.

Same thing with Scolipede:

Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Endeavor
- Toxic Spikes
- Megahorn

I actually have no idea what a Suicide Lead Scolipede set would run if I'm being 100% honest right now, but essentially I doubt people think this is broken, or else Scolipede would have been banned already.

Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Megahorn
- Endeavor
- Baton Pass

Same as above, now featuring BP! I don't know if people think this is broken, but I'd be surprised if this set caused anyone too much trouble, even with the addition of Baton Pass.

Ninjask @ Mental Herb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Scolipede @ Mental Herb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

I mean I did put Ninjask's set in there for a reason, is this really broken? Maybe, its certainly better than Ninjask, but I doubt that this would be the reason something was banned from OU.

Scolipede @ Mental Herb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Iron Defense
- Substitute
- Protect

Shout out to Denissss or w/e person I stole this Scoli set from. I assume that this set is the problem. In the same way as Smeargle, I don't think one can say with distinction that Baton Pass breaks Scolipede, its clearly the combination of Baton Pass + Speed Boost + a defensive boosting move + Good bulk (unlike Ninjask) + Good Defensive typing (also unlike Ninjask) that makes Scolipede a problem.

footnote

As I said I don't really have the greatest OU knowledge, as I am primarily an RU player, so please excuse any mistakes I've made in regard to meta game trends / sets.

@ Everyone wondering why I am posting in this thread in spite of not being an OU player, its simply because I assume that Smogon tiering philosophy moving forward is an acceptable topic of conversation in this thread (if that is not within the realm of discussion of this thread I am really sorry).

To me Smogon's philosophy has always been ban what is broken (or in the case of swagger uncompetitive, and yes the community banned it for being uncompetitive Haunter, not for being broken), and I don't think that anyone has successfully argued for Baton Pass being a broken move (and I don't see how you could find it uncompetitive). To argue that Baton Pass is broken, it is necessary to define what makes a move broken as opposed to the Pokemon using it. For me the standard of measure for a move being broken is that it is broken on every Pokemon that has access to it (like Geomancy!), where as the pro BP ban side seems to define a broken move by some measure of "annoying" or "cancer" (or more specifically that the move is sometimes "annoying" or "cancer"). I also don't really get this weird need to keep both Smeargle and Scolipede in OU, especially for OU players. Smeargle is not going to be used very much if BP is banned anyways, it was a decent RU mon last gen, but with the Spore nerf and Defog buff, it will probably be a worse RU mon than last gen (idk how Sticky Web plays into this), and as it stands now, RU is not able to use Smeargle anyways, so there is no collateral to OU or lower tiers by banning Smeargle over BP (espcially since it is BL now). As for Scolipede, that may see some OU use (although it ended up in BL before BP craze), but once again as it has been OU / BL this whole gen, lower tiers aren't really losing anything. To me the collateral damage caused by banning Baton Pass, which no one has successfully argued as broken yet (no one has even defined broken yet), seems far greater than banning two Pokemon.

/wall of text

again sorry if this is the wrong place