Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Iron Caliber]

Slowpoke is barely relevant anymore, and the Fire weakness is unfortunate, but Will-o-wisp doesn't completely shut Croagunk down because most Croagunk come mixed. Sludge Bomb is still a ridiculously potent Poison-type STAB that destroys every Fairy in the metagame and hits neutrally for really solid damage against Fighting-types and Water-types. 30% poison chance helps with passive damage as well. SR support can be ridiculously effective for Croagunk.
108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Cottonee: 28-40 (127.2 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vacuum Wave hits most Pokemon harder than other priority moves due to it being special. Pokemon like Onix that are mostly physically defensive are crippled by Vacuum Wave, same with Magnemite and Tirtouga. And like I said, it OHKOs Pawniard. Pawniard on the enemy team? Completely gone. Resists Sucker Punch. Resists Knock Off. Literally the perfect counter to an S-rank Pokemon.

And like I said, its weaknesses are the only thing keeping it from being A+. There's no denying that Fletchling and Abra counter it, but this is A-rank, where Pokemon "have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits". Croagunk deserves a higher place because of how effective it is. No A-rank Pokemon is perfect, but Croagunk is more pefect than Pokemon in A-.

 

[Shrug]

The reason Foo is S Rank is that it's amazing at grabbing momentum from the opponent with U-turn whereas Croagunk can kill momentum. Also it's notable that Foo is faster and hits harder than Gunk. Also their methods of winning against their own type is different. Foo has the Acrobatics option which beats most if not all Fighting types after they trade Knock Offs. Croagunk resists Fighting and can just sit and Drain Punch / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb the night away

Oh yes i totally agree I was just pointing out the two (gunk and foo) share similar flaws; Foo has more positive traits to make it S. I was arguing a psychic / ponyta / fletch weakness wasn't a reason for something to not be in a really high tier. Foo is definitional S-tier i think

 

[Tymano]

Oh yes i totally agree I was just pointing out the two (gunk and foo) share similar flaws; Foo has more positive traits to make it S. I was arguing a psychic / ponyta / fletch weakness wasn't a reason for something to not be in a really high tier. Foo is definitional S-tier i think

Yeah but croagunk doesn't get U-turn....or regenerator....but it can hit chinchou with earthquake and absorb its hydro pump or scald... so it is a partial chinchou counter and is not as affected by burn, making him better than foo in some cases.

 

[Tymano]

If fletch was banned, croagunk could easily become A+

 

[The Avalanches]

I think Croagunk's excellent typing and wide variety of attacks can push it into A rank. Gunk can force out an awful lot of things, Poison/Fighting allows it to take on Mienfoo, Timburr, Pawniard, and Chinchou, and he makes up for his middling speed with an array of priority attacks. Despite his mediocre bulk, he can boost with bulk up and heal with drain punch, making him harder to kill that he would be in paper.

I believe Croagunk can really glue a team together, or really fill a hole, with all of its resistances. I haven't played with it all that much, but I know that it can be a terror to deal with -- especially if you're lacking a Fletchling or Drilbur, as Croagunk can be very difficult to switch in on. I would really like to see it at A rank, its usefulness more than makes up for its weakness to a few top threats.

 

[Rowan]

scraggy high -> mid B
bellsprout mid -> high B
croagunk low -> mid A
chespin mid -> high C cos Adam Lambert is a lil bitch

changes.

cut down the list of things to be discussing. discussion is a bit too all over the place, so there's just a few things to focus down on. of course, all nominations are welcome, and if you want something added back up there, please make another post

 

[Good Morgan]

The trouble is that Mienfoo is just way, way harder to take out. It isn't weak to Ground, has just a 2x psychic, Regen, better bulk, etc.

 

[Rowan]

The trouble is that Mienfoo is just way, way harder to take out. It isn't weak to Ground, has just a 2x psychic, Regen, better bulk, etc.

That's why we're not discussing moving Croagunk to S.

 

[OP]

It doesn't really make sense to me to have Vulpix and Bellsprout in the same ranking. I think Vulpix is more viable because it can function outside of sun teams as a wall breaker or a scarfer but Bellsprout essentially requires Vulpix and therefore more support. Sun teams lacking Vulpix just aren't very good. I brought it up in chat and everyone seemed to agree, but I'd like to hear more thoughts on it. Bellsprout back to mid B?

 

[gali]

Sun teams lacking Vulpix just aren't very good.

Fiend Hound

Anyway, Taillow needs to move up to B+ or A-. All three of its sets (Guts, Specs boombird, and LO mixed) are extremely potent and difficult to switch into. Not to mention it hits 19 Speed and has U-Turn and Quick Attack. The only thing holding it back is that it's really frail and non-Specs sets die in 2 turns, but those 2 turns usually result in 2 dead mons for the opponent.

 

[Shrug]

Bellsprout essentially requires Vulpix and therefore more support.

Yeah but Vulpix is so good under sun that the support is worth it. Without Sprout Vulpix still functions but it's not particularly good, and it does its job passably when sprout is on the team. However when sun is up Bellsprout is a monster, the net value gained is about equal for both mons

 

[OP]

Without Sprout Vulpix still functions but it's not particularly good

Genuinely curious, have you ever even used the LO set? It's an absolute monster with very few switch-ins, none of which are particularly common. You can't say that Vulpix isn't very good without Bellsprout. Bellsprout relies on Vulpix, not the other way around.

 

[Shrug]

Genuinely curious, have you ever even used the LO set? It's an absolute monster with very few switch-ins, none of which are particularly common. You can't say that Vulpix isn't very good without Bellsprout. Bellsprout relies on Vulpix, not the other way around.

I have not used LO, and i have no doubt it's good, but comparatively, Sun Bellsprout is better, and the extra support pulls it level with vulpix. If we look at value like this:

Usefulness - cost to support = net value

Vulpix would have a much lower support cost but lower usefulness value as well; in comparison, sprout would have a higher usefulness value balanced by a higher support cost. therefore, they're both equal at a B+

 

[kingmidas]

I have not used LO, and i have no doubt it's good, but comparatively, Sun Bellsprout is better, and the extra support pulls it level with vulpix. If we look at value like this:

Usefulness - cost to support = net value

Vulpix would have a much lower support cost but lower usefulness value as well; in comparison, sprout would have a higher usefulness value balanced by a higher support cost. therefore, they're both equal at a B+

um vulpix is offensive ponyta, without solar beam and the need to run sunny day. Sure it has a lower speed tier but its damage output is much higher and spammable, nothing switches into energy ball + fire coverage (overheat and fire blast) also will-o-wisp can equal more 2HKOs and helps deal with its most annoying answer, archen.

 

[Rowan]

I'd happily move bellsprout back down, but the arguments in this thread seemed to support B+ more. Reason being it's completely deadly in the right conditions, with no switch-ins, and access to sleep powder to stop its checks/counters. When it does get in safely, something dies. It's similar to Zigzagoon in that it is deadly given enough team support. I think this is good enough to be at B+.

But the vulpix is better argument? well that's kinda true I guess: Vulpix can use more sets, (scarf, LO, heat rock) and is an absolute monster of a wallbreaker, with hardly any good switchins, except for fire types, munchlax and archen, and even the latter 2 get screwed by will-o-wisp. Vulpix doesn't really need team support to get to its full potential, it just spams fire blast. Personally, I think this is worthy of Low A for its wallbreaking ability AND the support it offers to Sun teams. (helping bellsprout, neutering water-types, allowing other fire pokemon to spam more easily).

 

[Pancham]

scraggy high -> mid B
bellsprout mid -> high B
croagunk low -> mid A
chespin mid -> high C cos Adam Lambert is a lil bitch

changes.

I just want you to know that I am very appreciative of your understanding. Chespin is very deserving of this rank change, and I am pleased people are finally catching on to what I've been saying for a month. You are so generous! :~D

 

[tazz]

Bellsprout definitely isn't B+
On the typical sun team, vulpix has to come in, safely get out, and safely get to bellsprout in under 8 turns. This is a lot harder than it sounds, considering that every team has, or should have, something that forces bellsrpout out (mainly fletchling). Once vulpix dies, bellsprout is pretty much dead weight because of its dependency on sun. The fact that is HAS to have sun, and is dead weight without it, makes it definitely not on the same level as other B+ pokemon.

 

[zeriloa]

i agree that vulpix shouldn't be in the same rank as sprout. people forget just how strong LO vulpix is (overheat straight ohko's eviolite mienfoo to give an example) and its definitely worth using without a sun abuser. whether sprout moves down or pix moves up doesn't really matter to me tho

 

[Timid_Metagross]

Drowzee:
Unranked -> C

Drowzee has a base 90 special defense, and with the eviolite it goes up to 135, which easily lets it wall common lc special attackers like abra and gastly. With access to moves like wish, thunder wave, calm mind, nasty plot, the elemental punches, belly drum, zen headbutt, and psychic, Drowzee can be a cleric to a sweeper. It's diversity can make it very unpredictable and hard to deal with.

Here are some calcs to see how bulky and offfensive this poke can be:

196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Drowzee Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 26-32 (136.8 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Abra Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
212+ SpA Drowzee Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drowzee, my friends is a badass.

 

[The Avalanches]

Drowzee has a base 90 special defense, and with the eviolite it goes up to 135, which easily lets it wall common lc special attackers like abra and gastly. With access to moves like wish, calm mind, nasty plot, the elemental punches, belly drum, zen headbutt, and psychic, Drowzee can be a cleric to a sweeper. It's diversity can make it very unpredictable and hard to deal with.

First of all, that isn't how stat multipliers stack. Second, you forgot to mention Knock Off, which not only severely mitigates Drowzee's bulk, but hits it super effectively. Unlike Slowpoke, it has no reliable recovery also, it simply isn't as good as you say.

 

[Oma]

Drowzee:
Unranked -> C

Drowzee has a base 90 special defense, and with the eviolite it goes up to 135, which easily lets it wall common lc special attackers like abra and gastly. With access to moves like wish, calm mind, nasty plot, the elemental punches, belly drum, zen headbutt, and psychic, Drowzee can be a cleric to a sweeper. It's diversity can make it very unpredictable and hard to deal with.

Here are some calcs to see how bulky and offfensive this poke can be:

196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Drowzee Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 26-32 (136.8 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Abra Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
212+ SpA Drowzee Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drowzee, my friends is a badass.

These calcs show that Drowzee has good special bulk, but it definitely doesn't wall Abra and Gastly. A wall should be able to switch in on a threat, and drowzee gets killed in a switch. Drowzee would be a check, but it would live really badly, making it useless later. If Gastly has a sash, Drowzee is still killed. (LO Gastly also has a 6.3% chance to OHKO Drowzee.) Also, your sets are different for Gastly and Abra, so it seems it can only check one Pokemon per set, which is a waste of a team slot. TheAvalanches mentioned Knock Off, which neuters Drowzee and hits it insanely hard because of its mediocre defense stat.
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Drowzee: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Timid_Metagross]

First of all, that isn't how stat multipliers stack. Second, you forgot to mention Knock Off, which not only severely mitigates Drowzee's bulk, but hits it super effectively. Unlike Slowpoke, it has no reliable recovery also, it simply isn't as good as you say.

There are awlways moves that can completely counter a pokemon, and that's the case for a lot of pokes in the lc metagame because many of these pokemon have the eviolite. It's better than pokes like deerling, I'm simply stating that it should at least have a rank instead of remainig unranked completely.

 

[Timid_Metagross]

These calcs show that Drowzee has good special bulk, but it definitely doesn't wall Abra and Gastly. A wall should be able to switch in on a threat, and drowzee gets killed in a switch. Drowzee would be a check, but it would live really badly, making it useless later. If Gastly has a sash, Drowzee is still killed. (LO Gastly also has a 6.3% chance to OHKO Drowzee.) Also, your sets are different for Gastly and Abra, so it seems it can only check one Pokemon per set, which is a waste of a team slot. TheAvalanches mentioned Knock Off, which neuters Drowzee and hits it insanely hard because of its mediocre defense stat.
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Drowzee: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As I said above^ knock off bodies many of the pokes in the meta, such as munna, duskull, and pumpkaboo. That is the reason that pokemon like pawniard are such a high rank. I'm just stating that with the correct support, drowzee is able to do things and at least have a rank because it isn't like igglybuff, wurmple or any of the pokemon that do no work whatsoever in the tier.

 

[The Avalanches]

There are awlways moves that can completely counter a pokemon, and that's the case for a lot of pokes in the lc metagame because many of these pokemon have the eviolite. It's better than pokes like deerling, I'm simply stating that it should at least have a rank instead of remainig unranked completely.

The problem is that most teams are carrying at least two knock off users nowadays, and aside from maybe being a Trick Room setter (outclassed by Solosis and Munna), Drowzee doesn't have a standalone niche. Munchlax outclasses it as a special wall, Lickitung and Spritzee outclass it as a cleric, it also isn't powerful, you've shown two calcs against some of the least bulky Pokemon in LC. It should stay unranked, it just isn't powerful or even bulky.

 

[Iron Caliber]

Neither Munna nor Duskull are relevant either. Drowzee falls into the class of "Bad Pokemon that are weak to Knock Off", and unlike ranked Pokemon like Slowpoke, Drowzee doesn't have a good movepool or ability to abuse, nor does it have any other bulk or good resistances besides Fighting. Case closed.