Also, I would like Mega Medicham to stay, if possible.
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Battle Spot Teambuilding Discussion & Help Thread (read post #453, page 19)
- Thread starter ethan06
- Start date
I switched Hawlucha for T-Flame and gave it BB, Flare Blitz, Tailwind and Roost with a Life Orb and 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Spe and Adamant Nature, and for Heracross (Which replaced Excadrill), I gave it Close Combat, Pin Missile, Rock Blast and Earthquake (Should I give it Swords Dance like in the official set?) with 40 HP, 252 Atk and 216 Spe, also Adamant. I need to know what to replace T-Tar with, though.
Lukethehedgehog You didn't answer all of my questions. I'm going to assume you're pursuing 3v3 singles, since you didn't specify which metagame.
I'm going to recommend things that shouldn't be too difficult to actually collect on cartridge, because ORAS battle spot has an added restriction: all pokemon on your team must be Kalos-born, and have a blue pentagon on their summary page. That'll make getting good legendaries more difficult.
A few things really stand out to me. First of all, lax nature ttar. That's a +def -sp.def nature. That's...a really challenging nature to work with. Ttar works here, but not like that. Try something like this:
Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
or
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rock Tomb
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
These sets are weak to intimidate and burn, though, and the match-up with mega salamence is shaky at best. Might try other coverage options over ice punch to see what works.
Mega medicham is outclassed in battle spot. The major appeal of being a fighting type here is the ability to check mega kangaskhan, which medicham can't. Its fake out loses to mega mom's fake out, and other priority moves are beaten out by sucker punch, which mega medicham doesn't even have a resistance to. I'd recommend replacing this with mega kangaskhan or mega salamence.
Kangaskhan @ Mega Stone
Ability: Scrappy > Parental bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Return / Double Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Power Up Punch
- Earthquake
or
Salamence @ Mega Stone
Ability: Intimidate > Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return / Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Outrage / Stone Edge
(I'm so completely hype about mega salamence myself; it'll be fun to test it out and see what works when ORAS is out).
This looks like a doubles core to me. I love to hear ethan06 give some context, but you'll only have 3 useable turns of tailwind in singles with mega heracross unless talonflame faints the turn it uses tailwind, which makes this strategy problematic. If you really want to keep mega medicham, you might be able to work with it in place of heracross.
I'd recommend u-turn over roost on talonflame. Talonflame is too frail to live long on battle spot, even with roost, so let it do its job and get out of the way.
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tailwind
EDIT: Fixed the EVs on the scarf set. -_-
I'm going to recommend things that shouldn't be too difficult to actually collect on cartridge, because ORAS battle spot has an added restriction: all pokemon on your team must be Kalos-born, and have a blue pentagon on their summary page. That'll make getting good legendaries more difficult.
A few things really stand out to me. First of all, lax nature ttar. That's a +def -sp.def nature. That's...a really challenging nature to work with. Ttar works here, but not like that. Try something like this:
Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
or
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rock Tomb
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
These sets are weak to intimidate and burn, though, and the match-up with mega salamence is shaky at best. Might try other coverage options over ice punch to see what works.
Mega medicham is outclassed in battle spot. The major appeal of being a fighting type here is the ability to check mega kangaskhan, which medicham can't. Its fake out loses to mega mom's fake out, and other priority moves are beaten out by sucker punch, which mega medicham doesn't even have a resistance to. I'd recommend replacing this with mega kangaskhan or mega salamence.
Kangaskhan @ Mega Stone
Ability: Scrappy > Parental bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Return / Double Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Power Up Punch
- Earthquake
or
Salamence @ Mega Stone
Ability: Intimidate > Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return / Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Outrage / Stone Edge
(I'm so completely hype about mega salamence myself; it'll be fun to test it out and see what works when ORAS is out).
ethan06 suggested this pair to me and i find it really intresting. the core was
+
the idea behind this core is to give tailwind priority (via gale wings) and give heracross-mega the speed it needs to be the unstopable sweeper we all know it is
This looks like a doubles core to me. I love to hear ethan06 give some context, but you'll only have 3 useable turns of tailwind in singles with mega heracross unless talonflame faints the turn it uses tailwind, which makes this strategy problematic. If you really want to keep mega medicham, you might be able to work with it in place of heracross.
I'd recommend u-turn over roost on talonflame. Talonflame is too frail to live long on battle spot, even with roost, so let it do its job and get out of the way.
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tailwind
EDIT: Fixed the EVs on the scarf set. -_-
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Gladly. Yes, it's for doubles (and VGC14); the premise is that Talonflame patches Heracross' slowness and weakness to priority with Tailwind and Quick Guard respectively, allowing it to get the drop on opposing Talonflame and Fake Out users like Kangaskhan (frailer ones like Meinshao are brought down to their Sash by Close Combat and subsequently bopped by Brave Bird). After said checks to Mega Hera are out of the way, it can run through an opponent's team with it's STABs while continually being supported by Talonflame's moves. That's the theory anyway; extra Tailwind support helps a lot.
Out of the five options for Talonflame's last slot, I'd go with Taunt, mostly because it blocks status moves from Pokémon like Rotom-Wash and keeps Heracross from being crippled before bopping them with Close Combat or other appropriate coverage. Roost and Protect both help you with longevity when Heracross doesn't need the support to roll something, and Flare Blitz and WoW are more anti-Aegislash tools than anything, as without them, neither Pokémon can touch it.
Talonflame @ Lum Berry/Mental Herb
Jolly
Gale Wings
252 Atk/164 HP/92 Spd (outspeeds 252+ Meinshao, the fastest common Fake Out user - QG is in the same priority bracket as Fake Out)
-Tailwind
-Brave Bird
-Quick Guard
-Taunt/Roost/Protect/Flare Blitz/Will-o-Wisp
Heracross @ Heracronite
Adamant
Moxie -> Skill Link
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
-Protect
-Close Combat
-Rock Blast
-Pin Missile/Bullet Seed
Lukethehedgehog - In ORAS, there's literally no reason to use Mega Medicham, really - Mega Gallade exists, and it can do pretty all of Medi's jobs better with better bulk, access to Knock Off and base 110 speed, by far and away better than Medicham's 100. Even in XY Battle Spot, Medicham has serious problems with a) Aegislash and b) anything faster than it that can take a Bullet Punch, which translates to a lot of things. You'll find yourself not bringing Medicham very often.
Try this Gallade set:
Gallade @ Galladite
Jolly
Justified -> Inner Focus
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
-Zen Headbutt
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Substitute
This Gallade set takes all of the things that Medicham does for you in theory (namely, beating Kangaskhan, Porygon2 and Mega Venusaur in one slot), but basically does it better. Where Medicham needs to run significant defensive investment to take Kang Return and KO back, Gallade can just run max speed and not worry about it. It's matchup against P2 is arguably better as it can Knock Off it's Eviolite before going for the KO with Close Combat. Mega Venusaur cringes at the thought of Zen Headbutt. Substitute safeguards you against problems such as Intimidate, Porygon2's paralysis and Venusaur's Sleep Powder.
If you run Mega Gallade, however, then you need a good answer to Mega Salamence - as the King of OR/AS (more like the Kang of OR/AS amirite ;D), it'll likely be everywhere, and given the speed and type advantage, Mega Gallade is a big risk when teambuilding. Other options to consider instead are Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye, who both have a positive matchup vs. Kangaskhan and still deal with Porygon2 fairly well while lessening your weakness to Salamence (Sableye Prankster burns it as it Mega Evolves and Lopunny outspeeds and hits with Ice Punch if it's unboosted). Rotom can take Mence's attacks to an extent but not for long, not with a specially defensive spread. You also can't do much back - you can Volt Switch to break the Sub but then you need to bring something in on an attack which is never fun. ExcaTar is in a similar boat - neither appreciate boosted Returns, and they hate Subs, but Stone Edge and Rock Slide do a decent chunk to Mence and Excadrill under Sand will outspeed a +1 Salamence.
Talonflame > Hawlucha. Aegislash laughs at Hawlucha, and Talonflame is just better in every way as far as Flying coverage goes. Will-o-Wisp and Flare Blitz beat Aegislash while also circumventing King's Shield. Priority is good.
So:
Rotom -> physically defensive
Tyranitar -> probably ScarfTar - Stealth Rock isn't strictly necessary in this format and beating Talonflame is gud
Excadrill -> put your Focus Sash here. This is not taking hits.
Talonflame -> Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/Will-o-Wisp/U-Turn or Tailwind with a Sharp Beak.
Greninja -> put Gunk Shot over Grass Knot to beat Azumarill and make it a Naive nature.
Gallade -> Swap for Lopunny or Sableye if you're still having Mence troubles.
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Why do I give Gunk Shot to Greninja so I beat Azumarill if Grass Knot already beats it (90 BP)? Also, do I keep Heracross or do I put Excadrill back?
PS: Sorry, EnGarde, by metagames, I thought you meant ORAS or XY.
EDIT: I used the Band T-Tar EnGarde recommended, swapped Megacham for Gallade and made Rotom-Wash Physically Defensive.
PS: Sorry, EnGarde, by metagames, I thought you meant ORAS or XY.
EDIT: I used the Band T-Tar EnGarde recommended, swapped Megacham for Gallade and made Rotom-Wash Physically Defensive.
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Gunk Shot is physical so it can beat Assault Vest Azumarill after it comes in on an attack:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 174-211 (43 - 52.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
If you pick Grass Knot you fail to OHKO and then:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 247-292 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
bop.
There's no need to keep Heracross when you have Mega Gallade. Sand Rush Excadrill has great synergy with Tyranitar and acts as a win condition should you weaken it's checks. An option to consider with Excadrill is changing it's ability to Mold Breaker and giving it a Choice Scarf. This allows it to run through the myriad of Levitators in the format and makes it a great answer to Gengar and Rotom-W. It also greatly minimises the number of common immunities to Earthquake, making it's job as a win condition twice as easy. However, you're choice locked, and while Scarf Excadrill does well against Pokémon such as Thundurus and Mega Charizard Y, it's easy for an opponent to predict a Rock Slide and strip you of your offensive momentum. In this regard, Sand Rush Excadrill is better as it allows you to run an item such as Air Balloon or Life Orb, easing prediction considerably against these Pokémon. However, Mold Breaker isn't reliant on Tyranitar to do well, and can actually bluff Sand Rush when seen with Tyranitar, using it's Scarf to surprise opponents that think they outspeed outside of Sand. At the end of the day, it's up to you which ability you use, but definitely go with Excadrill over Heracross.
/novel
As for Gren, do I leave the EVs as they are now, or do I invest a little more in Atk?
there is no ORAS battle spot format on showdown yet. (as far as i know)
I whipped this up kinda fast, but this might help anyway:
Tyranitar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 244 HP, 220 Atk, 4 Def, 36 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def
Brave Nature
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Crunch
- Ice Beam
I know it looks odd, but its primarily for example purposes; the bulk could probably be optimized a tad more, etc.
Expert Belt and 36 EVs OHKO's MegaMence with up to 92 HP/ 0 Sp. Def. (I think I've seen a 92 HP spread floating around that seemed popular?)
It also 2HKO's with Rock Slide, assuming no Intimidate/Burn, and OHKO's with Stone Edge under the same assumption. Outside of Brick Break, MegaMence can't KO it (Even then, it needs Adamant or a DD, unboosted Jolly maxes at 99%).
Fire Blast / Flamethrower is really just there so I had four moves on an example, no idea if that actually does anything important or not. xD
220+ Atk Expert Belt Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 187-221 (102.7 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
36 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 182-216 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Expert Belt Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 182-216 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Expert Belt Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 101-122 (55.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Doubles]
252+ Atk Mega Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 76-90 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (66.9 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Doubles]
It also kills Garchomp if anyone cares.
36 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 187-221 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
36 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 182-216 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Expert Belt Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 182-216 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Expert Belt Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 101-122 (55.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Doubles]
252+ Atk Mega Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 76-90 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (66.9 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Doubles]
It also kills Garchomp if anyone cares.
36 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 187-221 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obviously, all the above kills it, but the point is, Ice Beam is much easier to secure a KO with less overall investment, and gives approximately 0 fucks about Burns and Intimidates. Ice Punch needs hefty investment (near max Atk + boosting item) in order to offer a shaky threat - Ice Beam does also need a boosting item (or Quiet + 156 Sp. Atk EVs with no item; can't *guarentee* the KO with a neutral nature) but takes a lot less out of EVs to do it and outside of more obscure threats (Snarl, Noble Roar, Confide, Parting Shot) its going to do the same job with less issues on a set like this. Either Ice move will 2HKO on a -1 boost, if Sally can't 2HKO it first. The mere possibility of Roost makes me prefer a OHKO, though.
Don't take it the wrong way though, CB Ice Punch is fine; even if it gets Intimidated, Mence is going to be realistically killable with a common priority moves like Arcanine/Dragonite Extremespeed, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Talonflame's Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, etc. :P
And Scarf, as far as I know, outruns and 2HKO's, nothing wrong with that approach either. Just saw this while lurking, thought I'd throw in another possible option. :3
Small catch - you don't need Rapid Spin on Excadrill, entry hazards are rare in Battle Spot and it's not really a move you want to lock yourself into anyway. It's tough to pick a move for that last slot (STABs+Rock Slide cover most bases and it doesn't learn much else) but I like to run Aerial Ace on mine - it's a perfect-accuracy move that hits all of the known Minimizers, giving you the ability to pick them off reliably if they're at low health. It also deals with Breloom if it's Sash is broken and you have enough HP yourself to tank the Mach Punch. You could also run Brick Break to help against Kang/Dark-types and to counteract dual screen strategies but it doesn't get the utility against Minimize that is so useful. If you ask around in the Battle Spot Showdown room, someone might be willing to set up a custom game to help you test your team. ^_^
So what, do I try it out in ORAS OU?
LOL, I just copied the Smogon set so I forgot about that.
Is it just me, or is everyone else getting "The login server is under heavy load, please try logging in again later"?
the server is having an episode of some sort. The admins are working on getting the server back and ready to go. nothing major just gotta wait a litle bit
Ok.
Apoogies, I should have been more clear: battle spot has the 4 standard formats (singles, doubles, triples, and rotations), but more than that, battle spot is about to split between XY and ORAS. In a nutshell, XY battle spot won't have the ORAS megas, and ORAS battle spot will only allow pokemon caught/hatched in gen 6 (pokemon with a blue pentagon in the summary screen), which is why we needed to know both. :) If you want to know more about the split, the OP of this thread (link) has a lot of useful information about the differences. :)
One last note on your team: both talonflame and greninja are holding life orb. No 2 pokemon on the same team can hold the same item, so I'd recommend switching talonflame's held item for sharp beak, or greninja's held item for focus sash. Giving greninja focus sash in particular better helps you check mega'mence.
Thanks for commenting! :) Oh my, I can't believe I botched those EVs, lol. I was calcing around when I typed that up, and forgot to delete the 20 HP EVs. I've edited the earlier post.
I acknowledge that the 2 sets (scarf and band) struggle against intimidate, burn, and the matchup against mega'mence is shaky at best. Choosing ice punch over ice beam or fire coverage was pretty tough tbh, and I might change that (for my own teambuilding) after I get some experience with the metagame. But, I noticed that Lukethehedgehog 's team already had greninja, so the pair together could really help shut the door on opposing mega'mences, giving Luke more options.
Your set also looks interesting, as it allows for greater flexibility over choiced sets, and would do especially well on a TR team. The one thing it lacks over the choice sets is consistency: there's going to be times where your attack is going to hit the opponent for neutral damage, and in those cases, choiced ttar is going to do more damage and KO the opponent faster. Though, this is definitely a case where we can try out both sets and see which works best, as the expert belt set definitely looks interesting. :)
EDIT: grammar
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I'll try it out as soon as the connection problem is solved. Also, I gave Gren the Sash.
I didn't notice those HP EVs anyway LOL.
Ah, I didn't go back to look at the team. I took it as a standalone set, having it in unison with a Greninja makes sense. xD
In terms of a team suggest, yes, I like your ideas better. I'm fairly good at building my own teams, but bad at helping with other teams, if that makes any sense? ._.
I'm personally not a fan of Choice items (in competitive battles, anyway, they're fun as hell ingame) but putting that aside, the three sets (Scarf, Band, Expert Belt) offer their own pros and cons: Band offers consistent, excellent power, Scarf offers a surprising and useful Speed boost to outrun and maim MegaMence (among other things, of course), while Expert Belt affords flexibility and some mixed potential. Band and Scarf have the drawbacks of locking you onto a move, while Expert Belt, as you've mentioned, has no benefit whatsoever if you're hitting a neutral target, which Band and Scarf are a lot better at doing. I guess it depends on what TTar needs to do for its team, really. :P
Honestly, I'm just a nut and make crazy sets; most fail (Growl Dewgong, Soak Floatzel, Florges+Gogoat) but I've had some funny shit that worked like a charm (Sunny Day Suicune in Gen 5, AssVest Gardevoir I ran in the June International).
Still haven't done a BS match yet, just not been in the Pokémon mood lately.
Actually, I disagree with giving Greninja a Focus Sash - it synergises really badly with having Tyranitar on the team, as if the sand is up you just lose your Focus Sash and make Greninja vulnerable. I'd say just go with Life Orb and give Talonflame a Sharp Beak, as Talonflame is more likely to get some use out of increased longevity, especially if it has Roost. It's not like it needs any more recoil what with Brave Bird and Flare Blitz.
Whoa, you're absolutely right, I forgot about that, haha. Lukethehedgehog I'd follow ethan's advice. :) If you ever do decide to replace ttar, you might experiment in the future with sash on greninja. (such a shame about greninja's 1.0.4 patch nerfs...but that's a conversation for a different metagame, lol).
I know what you mean. I've been playing smash pretty heavily recently over pokemon. I'm sure the magic will come back once ORAS is out. Also, I'm the kind of nut that likes to experiment with bright powder + sand veil + double team trollchomp, so I'm right there with you on the crazy sets.