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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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I thought flavor justification was necessary for these theorymons; can someone explain how Dark Void Liepard falls under this?

As the submitter of theorymons, I do think about flavor justification and while Liepard isn't the slam dunk that Intimidate Cobalion was, I think it fits:

1) Liepard's Pokemon Black entry states "These Pokémon vanish and appear unexpectedly", which to me indicates some sort of power over darkness, shadows, and voids and could potentially be further stretched to Liepard inducing sudden sleep to change its position.
2) Liepard learns Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Dream Eater, but nothing in its Pokedex indicates it is supernatural beyond that one teleportation line. But to me, those are the justification to add Dark Void to the mix, as a compliment to the "Dark Aura/Dream Aura" powers it already has.

Finally, I also thought that the point of this whole exercise was to focus on how we can alter a Pokemon competitively first and foremost, to try and predict and then test how that change would alter the entire metagame, with flavor being strictly secondary and "just gravy" on top of the competitive idea. To quote ;lmlm:
...As far as flavor goes, it doesn't have to be a picture perfect fit; it just isn't supposed to contradict it like--say--Flash Fire Scizor or Mono-Fairy Umbreon. It doesn't contradict flavor for Goodra to have Protean. This is the last I'm going to hear of this specific matter, and if you continue to push it, know that your point is falling on deaf ears (or--blind eyes).

To everybody in this thread: our goal is to contribute to the metagame by altering certain aspects of it. This is not CAP; flavor is not paramount. I'm not saying flavor has nothing to do with our submissions; I'm saying it is not the primary factor in what we slate. I honestly think it's an argument people use in this thread when it's convenient for them to use it. Look at our archive: we've voted Normal/Ghost Porygon-Z and Magic Guard Moltres into it. Both of them are completely bigger flavor stretches than Protean Goodra. Did people throw massive tantrums in those slates? No--because they wanted those things to win in the first place.

This is where I am going to leave things...if we slate something, know that we have already taken flavor into account. I really am not going to endorse flavor arguments unless enough people are so unconscionably shocked by the flavor.

If you don't think Liepard + Dark Void should get in, don't vote for it. But don't reject it on some flavor stretch because you don't like it - there's plenty of intelligent discussion so far on why Liepard is too much, too centralizing, too unhealthy. And that discussion, whether I agree or not, is the point of the thread.
 
I have come to you with a different name.
Alright, I might as well give my opinion on Dark Void Liepard. Liepard itself is pretty unviable in OU. It has great speed, but that's about all it has going for it.
However, it is very over centralizing. I would hate to have to run Lum Berry on things I don't want to. It has a lot of awesome moves to help benefit with Prankster like Trick, T-Wave etc, etc. It also has Knock Off and U-Turn, so it could be really annoying.
But... look at its stats. 64 / 50 / 50 defensive stats are AWFUL. This thing would struggle to take even resisted hits. I admit that it would be annoying, but it is in no means completely broken. It doesn't have very good attacking stats either. Talonflame outspeeds with its priority and would most likely one shot it. I'm not saying every team needs a Talonflame (But hey, most of them already do), but one Pokémon asleep won't change the entire tone of battle.

I personally won't be voting for it, but come on guys, give the dude a break. This is one of the first things he's ever done on Smogon, and he's had some great ideas. One controversial Pokémon isn't the biggest deal.
Personally, I like Multiscale Milotic. If you don't like it, for the love of god, don't vote for it.
 
I have come to you with a different name.
Alright, I might as well give my opinion on Dark Void Liepard. Liepard itself is pretty unviable in OU. It has great speed, but that's about all it has going for it.
However, it is very over centralizing. I would hate to have to run Lum Berry on things I don't want to. It has a lot of awesome moves to help benefit with Prankster like Trick, T-Wave etc, etc. It also has Knock Off and U-Turn, so it could be really annoying.
But... look at its stats. 64 / 50 / 50 defensive stats are AWFUL. This thing would struggle to take even resisted hits. I admit that it would be annoying, but it is in no means completely broken. It doesn't have very good attacking stats either. Talonflame outspeeds with its priority and would most likely one shot it. I'm not saying every team needs a Talonflame (But hey, most of them already do), but one Pokémon asleep won't change the entire tone of battle.

I personally won't be voting for it, but come on guys, give the dude a break. This is one of the first things he's ever done on Smogon, and he's had some great ideas. One controversial Pokémon isn't the biggest deal.
Personally, I like Multiscale Milotic. If you don't like it, for the love of god, don't vote for it.

Name change? Fun

But the sentiment is shared on cut the Guy some slack. Even with all my hate of priority crap its just not worth arguing how over centralizing it is (or if it is). This is not a sand rush chomp and frankly even if I really understand where you are coming from, just relax and don't vote for it is all I can say.
 
Can we discuss Infernape a bit more? Seems like the talk has been focused on everything else but that and I'm kind of interested to hear more perspectives of what it would provide in the tier.
 
Nape will be the perfect suicide lead (barring Prankster Fross, but that's not in the actual meta). I highly doubt Nape would have any merit as a defensive Prankster like Sableye purely because it doesn't have the typing to pull it off. Being able to Prankster Taunt and Rocks is huge though, and I could see it as an excellent asset to HO because of its ability to go mixed and support its team.
 
Sorry if I have been coming across as an asshole, as I didn't mean to be. I was just curious about what the flavor justification was, as I wasn't seeing it.
 
Sorry if I have been coming across as an asshole, as I didn't mean to be. I was just curious about what the flavor justification was, as I wasn't seeing it.

The justification is that it's not unreasonable to think that Liepard could get it. As I said before, just because it isn't explicitly in the Pokedex entries does not mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Perfect example: Mega Absol. All of the 'dex entries talk about its ability to sense danger/disaster. They never talk about how Absol is a magical being with the ability to reflect attacks. We don't operate our flavor on a sense of "perfect fit". We operate on a sense of, "is this so unreasonable that it could never happen?". An example would be giving Camerupt Water Absorb or Heatran Levitate.

If, however, you need some sort of explicit reasoning, I suppose I could say this: if Liepard were not meant to have ANY Dark abilities WHATSOEVER, then it would simply have a Normal typing. The fact that it gets a Dark typing alone implies that there is more behind the flavor of it than perhaps is stated in the Pokedex.

As I have said before, our goal in Theorymon is not the same as CAP. We aren't trying to make a picture perfect flavor fit. We are really just doing it as a way to weed out ludicrous submissions. When people bring up flavor arguments, it's ALMOST always a convenient argument. You never see people address poor flavor when they are in favor of a submission (see: Magic Guard Moltres and Ghost/Normal Porygon Z).

EDIT: Well this was an unnecessary post. I misread your post and thought you wanted more clarification. My bad.
 
Looking at the calcs, I agree that Infernape has no real chance as a defensive 'mon like Sableye despite its slightly better bulk and additional resists. Those resists make it slightly better at tangoing with Dark types and Bug types, but most of those Pokemon stand no real threat to a standard Sableye anyways. Meanwhile, Infernape is significantly worse against fly-spam (especially Talonflame) and anything carrying Earthquake or rock-type coverage. He can handle some of them with a quick WoW, but not as well as Sableye and some of them (Mamoswine, Rhyperior) can quickly burn through his recovery and substitutes even after a burn. Add on to that how much harder a time Infernape has against Greninja, Gyarados, and other water-types and I just don't see it happening. His only clear advantage I can see is being able to carry a stronger, different STAB to crack other walls in either Flare Blitz or Close Combat, and his ability to not instantly die to fairies, but overall Sableye just does it better before even considering Sable's immunities and Mega potential.

As an offensive pokemon though, Infernape is great and Prankster opens up a ton of options for him. He hardly ever uses his Iron Fist anyways so the extra utility from priority Rocks, Taunt, WoW, boosting, or even recovery is a welcome addition and gives him a lot of possible sets. It's a tough call between him and Milotic for me (since I am seeing no chance of Liepard getting any traction with this crowd).
 
Something that I feel I should mention about Infernape is that it can't be Burned. It has a lot of offensive presence, giving him an advantage over Sableye. Just a little note.
 
As I said I just thought of it as the wisp based Thundy... guess it can do more but I still like that idea (even if I hate prankster and that monkey...).
 
Aight y'all--get out your campaigns, cause we're about to start voting!

If you've forgotten the slate, it is…
  • Liepard + Dark Void
  • Infernape + Prankster
  • Milotic + Multiscale
  • Nidoking + Rock Polish
As always, please bold your vote like the following…

Infernape + Prankster

I apologize for the lateness of the voting. I had intended to play test each of the submissions, but plans fell through. Expect replays of every future submission though. I'd also encourage you to do the same; it'd be a great way to enhance a submission/lobby for your favorites.

Happy voting!
 
It was also a bit hectic and what not due to the holidays being what they are, but non the less, we vote now!


Milotic Multiscale

Only one that I have any real respect for and don't immediately not like (Don't hate me Nido my love, but frankly I already have hard nough time picking moves for you :()
 
From the mouths of babes...

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I've got to listen to Hogg Jr., and vote for Milotic + Multiscale.
 
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