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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
Mienfoo gets nailed by Fletchling, so should it not be considered as good? Pawniard has a spectacularly strong Knock Off, and it can run a bevy of support moves, in my mind, it's every bit as useful as Mienfoo, perhaps even moreso.
Right now, you're implying that Pawniard shouldn't be S-rank because Mienfoo beats it. Reread the previous sentence. Again.
Pawniard is the definition of S-rank and although it may not be as good as Mienfoo in the metagame, it's a damn good Pokemon.
Let me overly elaborate so you can understand. Because you arent understanding why Pawn is S.
Pawn has a lot of things going for it. Such as:
-Defiant gives it a free SD on all stat lowering moves and moves with a stat lowering second effect.
-STAB on Knock Off ensures it OHKOs just about anyone weak to Dark (holding an item ofc but a lot of bold psychics barely scathe away from the OHKO)
-It's typing is a godsend lets look at it really quick.
Pawniard (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Fighting, Fire, Ground
Resistances: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
Immunities: Poison, Psychic
Weaknesses: Fighting, Fire, Ground
Resistances: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
Immunities: Poison, Psychic
all the other S rankers dont have this.
Fletchling (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Electric, Ice, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Grass
Immunities: Ghost, Ground
Chinchou (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Grass, Ground
Resistances: Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel, Water
Immunities: None
Mienfoo (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Fairy, Flying, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Rock
Immunities: None
Weaknesses: Electric, Ice, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Grass
Immunities: Ghost, Ground
Chinchou (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Grass, Ground
Resistances: Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel, Water
Immunities: None
Mienfoo (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Fairy, Flying, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Rock
Immunities: None
Now Pawn is so scary to face, for coverage, everyone runs HP Fight / HP Ground to manage it. The last mon to force HP coverage like this is Gligar. Gligar. Yknow, the thing that was banned for wrecking so many teams without trying?
The fact that if you run Sticky Web you'll have to run more than one Pawn check to get past it, that's terrible.
The fact that you can be run through by +2 Pawn with little effort, is scary. Every team has a fighting mon because of Pawn (among other reasons)
Yeah Pawn is x4 weak ti Fight. Every Fighting mon can check / counter Pawn without any trouble. That's a flaw. IF it had no check / counters, it would prolly be suspected. But every mon has it's flaws big or small. But it's offensive prevalence has shaped this metagame.
Speaking of prevalence, lets talk defensive things it can do. Like using TWave to ruin it's switchins (not TImburr) and Stealth Rock because hazards are important.
All of these points together, Pawn is terrifying to face because of the pressure it places on you without having to be out. It deserves it's rank.
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My little cent. I think S-Rank's splitting is not necessary. Despite others ranks, S-Rank is amazing-mons' domain; they are not so many and I'm not able to recognize strength differences between them. So bringing them together is the easiest thing to do. And easiest thing to do it's often better thing to do ;) .
I'm not at all doubting the terrifying power that is Pawn, with the best sucker punch and knock off in the tier, it gives any nonbulky fighting type (or fairy oh wait why would you ever switch a fairy into pawn) massive damage with knock off, and sucker punch, combined with rocks can even give meditite nightmares.
Some calcs I did to show lord pawns power.
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Screw having no item, your dead anyway you bird.
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Screw eviolite, with another sucker punch, your dead.
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
cause screw eviolite...again
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drilbur: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rekt
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 33-40 (143.4 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Birds really need to stop going for pawn... don't you think
Top LC threats don't matter to pawn.
I was not saying that Pawn was bad once again.....I'm just saying that it got an unfortunate 4x weakness to fighting.
Yeah. We know that. But you trying to prove it to us is making it seem as though you're not supporting Pawn rising to the potential S+ rank or even staying in S-rank.
my honest question is why is pawn not using iron head on spritzee at +2 o_o
Okay, I don't like the thing about splitting up S rank, because if some Pokemon are the 'best' then why are some of the best Pokemon not actually the best? It seems everyone is in agreement about Mienfoo and Pawniard being the top mons. So imo they should stay S, whilst Chinchou and Fletchling should move to High A.
However I realise that we have some sort of power creep of High A mons, and Chinchou and Fletchling are better than some A+ mons. I don't think Archen, Drilbur and maybe Magnemite are on that level, and should move down to A. This would make it look:
S
High A
Mid A
(or mag at mid A)
thoughts?
However I realise that we have some sort of power creep of High A mons, and Chinchou and Fletchling are better than some A+ mons. I don't think Archen, Drilbur and maybe Magnemite are on that level, and should move down to A. This would make it look:
S
High A
Mid A
thoughts?
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Splitting up S mskes a lot more sense than pushing S threats into A. This is about viability, not what certain users want to title the highest ranking. We shouldn't try restructuring the entire list when expanding it is a lot simpler, and a more accurate representation of viability for new users.
Though imo Magnemite should still drop for being checked by so much and for being particularly prone to hazards and Knock Off.
Though imo Magnemite should still drop for being checked by so much and for being particularly prone to hazards and Knock Off.
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Except, restructuring S and A+ makes a lot more sense. A+ is for the best, and S is for the best of the best; that seems pretty simple to me and is way more accurate of a representation of where these Pokemon belong. Mienfoo and Pawniard are on a different level from the rest of the metagame, and thus should be represented as such. However, I don't believe that Fletchling and Chinchou are above the Pokemon in the current A+ tier enough to warrant expanding S. All the controversy over whether they should be S or not is proof enough of that. I feel Chinchou, Fletchling, and everything else in Rowan's proposed A+ tier are roughly equal in power and viability.
I agree with Rowan's idea and partially with Hawkstar in quote above. Reorganizing S and A+ ranks could be a good way to walk through. But I think we should have a detailed discussion on every pokemon in the A+; on the spot, I think Tirtouga and Ponyta are in a lower level than others and this difference is even clearer with Fletching and Chinchou entries. In short, I believe it's necessary a cascade ranking discussion to reorganize the whole viability ranking.
Okay, I don't like the thing about splitting up S rank, because if some Pokemon are the 'best' then why are some of the best Pokemon not actually the best? It seems everyone is in agreement about Mienfoo and Pawniard being the top mons. So imo they should stay S, whilst Chinchou and Fletchling should move to High A.
However I realise that we have some sort of power creep of High A mons, and Chinchou and Fletchling are better than some A+ mons. I don't think Archen, Drilbur and maybe Magnemite are on that level, and should move down to A. This would make it look:
S
High A
Mid A
(or mag at mid A)
thoughts?
Croagunk is a monster now more than ever, serving as a reliable check to Skrelp, ZHB-less Pancham and the popular Pawniard-Pumpkaboo-Webs teams everywhere. It's just a really solid glue-mon and definitely should be High A.
Also, I wanna nominate Staryu to go up to somewhere in the A-range. It's just really good and can check a lot of common Pokemon. Plus, it can handle Pumpkaboo decently well with Ice Beam (although I usually opt for Psychic so I can hit other threats).
Okay, here are my thoughts for Fletch and Chou, I don't feel like writing up stuff for the rest rnOkay, I don't like the thing about splitting up S rank, because if some Pokemon are the 'best' then why are some of the best Pokemon not actually the best? It seems everyone is in agreement about Mienfoo and Pawniard being the top mons. So imo they should stay S, whilst Chinchou and Fletchling should move to High A.
However I realise that we have some sort of power creep of High A mons, and Chinchou and Fletchling are better than some A+ mons. I don't think Archen, Drilbur and Magnemite are on that level, and should move down to A. This would make it look:
S
High A
Mid A
thoughts?
Fletchling is an interesting case- it's a Pokemon that defined the metagame, but it's kind of fallen from glory since it was suspected. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Pokemon, but it's not the monster it once was. It's kind of the way that Larvitar in ADV LC used to be one of the best mons in the tier, but now it's B+ in that it's lost viability because of how much the metagame has had to adapt to it. Pokemon like Elekid now carry HP Grass or Water almost exclusively for it, despite it's fall from glory. Teams to this day in ADV LC have a Larvitar check out of necessity, because even if it is B+, it will sweep through unprepared teams. That's how it is with Fletch. Teams are still necessitated to carry at least one Fletch check to even qualify as potentially being viable. An argument that I see a lot is that Fletch can rip through teams once its checks and counters have been eliminated- the problem with this is that, if I weaken my opponent's checks and counters to literally any Pokemon, I can eventually sweep their team- if I weakened all the checks and counters to Belly Drum macle's less-than-secret lover Poliwag, I could achieve a sweep with that too. What makes a sweeper like this more viable is, in the current metagame, 1) how easily it can set up, 2) how many viable checks and counters it has, and 3) how easily its checks and counters can be weakened/trapped/eliminated. The thing that made Mega Salamence so disgustingly broken in ORAS OU was that it could set up on 90% of the metagame, had few checks and almost no counters, and its checks and counters were very easily weakened (there were other factors too, but those are the major things imo). Looking at these factors, Fletchling can easily set up on a lot of mons, but there are a lot of viable checks and counters to it that are hard to weaken due to reliable recovery and the strength to KO trappers like Gothita and Diglett. I could have sworn that I posted something about how the Fletchling mixed lure isn't really a lure anymore because people know it can run mixed nowadays, but I can't find that. If any of you guys know where it is, link me and I'll put it here.
TL;DR: Fletch should definitely drop to A+
TL;DR: Fletch should definitely drop to A+
Chinchou is less controversial. It should definitely drop- it just plain isn't worthy of S. Sure, it has a lot of sets it can viably run, but none of them are quite good enough to justify S Rank. Other people have made better arguments than I could against it, so I'm not going to try.
TL;DR: Chou to A+
TL;DR: Chou to A+
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How does Croagunk check Skrelp? The only move it can switch in on is it's Water STAB. I don't know what the standard spread for Skrelp is yet, but with what I've been running (156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD), Skrelp's Sludge Wave outdamages every single one of Mixed Utility Croagunk's attacks, even after Skrelp's Eviolite has been Knocked Off. Drain Punch heals 1 HP before Knock Off and 2 afterwards, so it's not going to be healing enough to keep up. Every other one of Croagunk's sets suffer the same problem, including the BJ Nasty Plot set, which at best lives with 2 HP after KOing Skrelp with 3 +2 Sludge Bombs dealing less than Skrelp's unboosted Sludge Wave. Croagunk checks Skrelp in the same way that Timburr checks Abra; it can live through some attacks and KO (if you're lucky) but you basically lose your Croagunk/Timburr. As for Pancham, it's faster than the standard Utility set, does a bit of damage with Drain Punch or gets rid of its Eviolite with Knock Off on Croagunk's switch in, and uses Parting Shot to get out while taking no damage unless they decide to Vacuum Wave. I suppose that makes it a check since it forces Pancham out, but the standard Utility Croagunk set poses no actual threat to Pancham itself. Beating Pawniard-Pumpkaboo is cool and all, but so does Timburr, who is better at beating Sticky Web teams in general since it can beat Elekid, Cranidos, and other Sticky Web teammates better than Croagunk can.
Croagunk still has the issue of spreading itself too thin trying to do everything at once with the standard Utility set, and while the Nasty Plot set hits pretty hard, it's very slow and lacks the bulk that makes other slow boosters like Timburr bigger threats. Oh yeah, did I mention how Timburr does Croagunk's job better most of the time? That's still a problem for Croagunk as well. Keep it in A.
It's not uncommon for Croagunk to run Earthquake. Physical Croagunk is arguably better than the standard mixed utility variant right now.
188+ Atk Croagunk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Skrelp: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
188+ Atk Croagunk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Skrelp: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
188+ Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Skrelp: 5-7 (21.7 - 30.4%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 5-7 (22.7 - 31.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
196+ SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO
I didn't even know it learned Earthquake. In that case, it definitely checks Skrelp, but even so, that's not enough to make it A+, especially now that we're talking about revamping the A+ tier to be more exclusive.
Okay, I don't like the thing about splitting up S rank, because if some Pokemon are the 'best' then why are some of the best Pokemon not actually the best? It seems everyone is in agreement about Mienfoo and Pawniard being the top mons. So imo they should stay S, whilst Chinchou and Fletchling should move to High A.
However I realise that we have some sort of power creep of High A mons, and Chinchou and Fletchling are better than some A+ mons. I don't think Archen, Drilbur and maybe Magnemite are on that level, and should move down to A. This would make it look:
S
High A
Mid A
(or mag at mid A)
thoughts?
Drilbur, Archen, and Magnemite all deserve to be in A+ - if not more so than Tirtouga and even Chinchou. The easiest thing to do is drop Chinchou, and leave everything else alone until we have a clearer idea as to what should go where. Fletchling is quite obviously an S-rank mon, whether or not it stands up to the potential of Pawniard or Mienfoo is unnecessary.
That is strange as much real.Reading Infamy's explanations topic about Fletching (it's also best answer vs sun team) I'm sure it's better pokemon in A+. We should decide if it's ok.
The notion of kicking these S-Rank Pokemon down simply because some people don't like the idea of S+ existing is absurd. The only reason we should be kicking down Pokemon is because they have lost viability. Chinchou and Fletchling both are significantly more viable than stuff like Ponyta and Tirtouga. We are taking about the best pivot in the game, and what's basically the duct tape of LC. No other mon in A has the offensive presence Fletchling even has, so let's really not go there.
Except Fletchling has lost viability, and in the case of Chinchou, it never deserved to be there in the first place. Read queenlucy's post on page 58 if you haven't already; it's a great example of why Chinchou shouldn't be there. She says pretty much everything I want to, and would rather focus on Fletchling because there is a certain argument going around that I don't like. Fletchling deserves to drop because of how prepared the metagame is for it, which makes it less effective than it once was. A lot of people are arguing for it to stay S because of the "impact" it has on the metagame, saying that the fact that people need to prepare for it so much or risk losing when it appears means it should stay S. However, this is exactly how any competitive metagame works. Character A is really good, Character B beats Character A, Character A becomes used less as Character B is getting more common, Character C is discovered to beat Character B, Character C becomes more popular than Character B, and so on. This isn't the "Impact Rankings" list, this is the "Viability Rankings" list. If a Pokemon's impact on the meta was to be seriously considered, we would never move anything down in rank, because the argument "Well, X Pokemon sucks now because people prepare for it so much; this is a testament to its impact on the metagame therefore it should stay where it is" would prevent anything from moving down. There are so many Fletchling checks out there that have been discovered that it has a much harder time doing its job, therefore I believe it should be A+. It's still a potent threat, and can sweep teams if your opponent isn't careful with their checks, but this has gotten harder as the metagame has adapted to Fletchling's presence.
In short, I don't like splitting up S because there are too few Pokemon there or because I don't like the idea; I am opposed because two of the Pokemon in S don't belong there, and keeping them there by valuing their impact over their actual viability makes the list worse.
In short, I don't like splitting up S because there are too few Pokemon there or because I don't like the idea; I am opposed because two of the Pokemon in S don't belong there, and keeping them there by valuing their impact over their actual viability makes the list worse.
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