Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Nochman.EXE]

If Greninja deserves to be suspected at all, it should be because of how it has little to no Switch Ins V.S. certain Types that, in combination with it's Speed and additional coverage Moves, allow it to shut down said Types to the point it forces the players to run niche Sets; not because it gained Gunk Shot or Low Kick. Greninja is just as threatening as it was before, with Gunk Shot and perhaps Low Kick only relevant on Dark. Where Greninja is a problem is on Water. Greninja is already capable of putting a ridculous amount of pressure on Teams by itself, but when you factor in Water's natural diversity, what you get is a Team that can effortlessly cover practically the entire Meta. And that's just an understatement. Between Greninja, whose Standard Set perform well against Dragon, Flying, Ground, Steel, Poison, opposing Water, and even Grass, Azumarill, whose various Sets can cover Dark, Normal, and Fighting, and Lanturn+Ground/Water Type to patch up the Electric Weakness, what you get is a Team, no, a half of a Team, that can handle each of the relevant Types respectively with 3 Slots to spare. But with Greninja's new toys, this threat is intensified, as now it is no longer forced out by as much as it used to be meaning it's even more of a menace. And even despite it's 4MSS, it still leaves the Metagame to the mercy of the guessing game; whether your Flying Team is Swept or not is all depending on whether it runs Rock Slide or not. If it does't, then you Zard may have a chance. If it does, your fucked, because Zard can no longer Switch In. And what Scarvers you do have to handle it, if at all, can be covered almost seamlessly by Water's many Walls to the point that it's almost guaranteed to come back in.

Greninja was a huge Threat before that imo deserves to be Suspected before ORAS Move Tutors, but now that it has even fewer Switch Ins and more options, I think it's been pushed to Suspect worth. However, where it is a problem is on Water, as on Dark, it actually provides necessary Coverage as opposed to additional Coverage on top of Water's already wide diversity.

 

[Tyke]

Thoughts on Mega-Slowbro

Hello :]

With all the talk going around of a Mega-Slowbro suspect test, I thought I’d try and brainstorm counters, checks, or counter-strategies that the mono meta-game has for it. First I made a short list of tools almost all monotypes have access to. Then I thought more about all the potential manners that each monotypes might deal with mega-slowbro.

To Be Clear: The set I'm referring to is the following....

Slowbro-Mega (Set A)
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Slack off
-Psyshock/Flamethrower/*filler*

As well as the infamous "Crobro" set....

Slowbro-Mega (Set B)
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Although I find the former superior with heal bell support, they are both checked by different things and post different threats, so I'll address them both.

First let me make a list of tools most monos have availible to them, then go type by type to see what each can offer.

Mega-Slowbro Strategies​

General Responses to Mega-Slowbro
-Clear Smog/Haze
-Perish Song
-Acid Spray
-Dragon Tail/Circle Throw/Roar/Whirlwind
-Special Wallbreakers

Normal:
-Ditto and Chansey can PP stall Crobro rather easily, and can toxistall sets that run psyshock as well.
-On the weirder side, Heliolisk Hardwalls Crobro and Calm Mind Meloetta out stalls, especially that snore set I've seen.

Fighting:
-Swords Dance Breloom, Breloom with Substitute, Breloom with Poison Heal all threaten both Set A & B.
-HP Electric Keldeo.
-Heracross, scarfed/banded/guts all 2HKO Mega-Slowbro with Megahorn.
-Toxicroak hard walls Crobro, and provides STAB poison coverage that helps KO all the fairies it outspeeds .3.
-on the uncommon side, Punishment or Circle Throw ._.
Psychic:
-Mega-Latias outstalls and out-damages.
-Stallbreaker Mew can PP stall it.
-Calm Mind mega-gardevoir can break it.

Electric:
-Nasty Plot Thundurus can break Set A
-Heliolisk hard-walls Set B, and provides Electric teams with excellent ground coverage to boot.
-Elektross has a variety of helpful moves (acid spray, super fang, dragon tail) to phaze out crobro.
-Mega-Ampharos with charge beam breaks it, but is a bit niche. I've seen chargebeam/dragon pulse/restalk mega-ampharos work though, although we're stretching.
-Zapdos pressure stall might work.
-Ample electric STAB and momentum to work around crobro, but if Set A sets up a calm mind, you need toxic.
Ice:
-Freeze Dry?
-Hex Froslass?
Water:
-Tentacruel takes out crobro and can severely weaken Set A, typically able to pull off two acid sprays before getting KOd by Psyshock.
-Crocune outstalls.
-Rest/Talk or Sub Mega-Gyarados both handle Slowbro, especially if they run Crunch.
-Mega-Sharpedo 2HKOs with Crunch.
-LO Adaptabiliy Crawdaunt 2HKOs with Crunch.
Fire:
-Charizard-Y can take out Crobro with Solar Beams, but can NOT take out Set A the same way.
-Fire lacks any physical attacker to threaten either slowbro set, even Victini bolt strikes are a 3HKO
-Chandelure with Hex or Shadow Ball will nix Slowbro if used early, but can be worn down by smart players due to rocks weakness.
-Volcarona is a tentative check.
-Volcanion, if released, seems like a decent check.
Ground:
-Gastrodon walls Crobro, and can toxic set A.
-um......... punishment Krookadile?
Rock:
-Cradily can wall Crobro, and toxic Set A.
-Shuckle Encore Antics
-Chimplup's Probopass set works, i guess .3.
Steel:
-Swords Dance Mega-Mawile if it's lucky enough to avoid burns.
-Specs Magnezone can KO Crobro and check Set A (if it's any less than +2).
-Ferrothorn can Leech Seed + Power Whip to whittle Mega-Slowbro down.
Flying:
-Nasty Plot Thundurus
-Mega-Altaria and Mega-Gyarados can set up on both Slowbro Sets.
-Mega-Charizard can set up on Crobro.
-Mega-Zard Y, if used, can take out Crobro.
-Flying is completely fucked if it is Set A tho.

Bug:
-Heracross 2HKOs with Mega-Horn.
-Volcarona with Roost is a tentative check.
-Mega-Beedrill can 2HKO with U-turn, but Set A can slack it off.
-Genesect can nearly OHKO with U-turn once SLowbro has Calm Minded enough for download to boost attack, and can KO with bug buzz if it boosts spA before it can calm mind at all.
Ghost:
-Hex handles Crobro, for those smart enough to use it.
-Crofagrigus and Crorotomb also outstall and outdamage crobro.
-Destiny Bond/Taunt is always an option.
-Trevenant handles Crobro and Set A fairly well. Leech Seed/Curse/Will o Wisp/Horn Leech are all moves that threaten Crobro, and lum berry harvest comes near to countering it.
Dark:
-Specs Hydreigon/Greninja with lucky flinches are all that will take down Set A) after it uses calm mind ;-;
-Punishment on Random Things
-Whirlwind.
-SD Bisharp if you're lucky.
Fairy:
-Unaware Clefable with Charge Beam
-Mega-Mawile can OHKO with Sucker Punch at +2
-Whimsicott can use encore to shut Slowbro down.
Dragon:
-Specs Hydreigon.
-Mega-Latias outstalls and outdamages.
-Mega-Altaria can set up on crobro.
-umm... power whip goodra?
Grass:
-Lucky plants. They Have Shaymin-Sky.
-Mega-Venusaur can outstall.
-Cradily can wall crobro and toxic Set A if it for some reason runs Storm Drain.
-Swords Dance/Nasty Plot Water Absorb Cacturne :I
Poison:
-Acid Spray Tentacruel takes out Crobro, but loses to Set A. There's always acid spray skuntank ._.
-Mega-Beedrill can 2HKO with U-turn, but Set A can just slack it off.
-Mega-Venusaur can outstall.
-Clear Smog Weezing.

Final Thoughts​

Mega-Slowbro is incredible strong. It has titanic defenses, having more physical bulk than vanilla Slowbro even without defense investment. It has a daunting 130 SpA stat and a wide movepool to abuse it with. It can stay healthy while waiting for the opportunity to mega-evolve through regenerator, scalding as it goes.

While certain monos can handle with minimal adjustment (electric, flying, or water), almost all other monos will struggle monumentally with it, and as a result we'll see over-centralization. Crobro, while easier to deal with, is still a large threat, and other sets have all the support they need on water and psychic to sweep.

Of course my brief analysis isn’t comparable with a suspect test, but still I think despite there being unexplored area in this new metagame and the pokemon having common weaknesses, Mega-Slowbro warrants a suspect for the monotype metagame.

Idk, just mai thoughts c:


Dun go hatin tho, Slowbro's still bae asf .3.

 

[DoW]

Thoughts on Mega-Slowbro

Hello :]

With all the talk going around of a Mega-Slowbro suspect test, I thought I’d try and brainstorm counters, checks, or counter-strategies that the mono meta-game has for it. First I made a short list of tools almost all monotypes have access to. Then I thought more about all the potential manners that each monotypes might deal with mega-slowbro.

To Be Clear: The set I'm referring to is the following....


As well as the infamous "Crobro" set....



Although I find the former superior with heal bell support, they are both checked by different things and post different threats, so I'll address them both.

First let me make a list of tools most monos have availible to them, then go type by type to see what each can offer.

Mega-Slowbro Strategies​

Normal:
-Ditto and Chansey can PP stall Crobro rather easily, and can toxistall sets that run psyshock as well.
-On the weirder side, Heliolisk Hardwalls Crobro and Calm Mind Meloetta out stalls, especially that snore set I've seen.

Fighting:
-Swords Dance Breloom, Breloom with Substitute, Breloom with Poison Heal all threaten both Set A & B.
-HP Electric Keldeo.
-Heracross, scarfed/banded/guts all 2HKO Mega-Slowbro with Megahorn.
-Toxicroak hard walls Crobro, and provides STAB poison coverage that helps KO all the fairies it outspeeds .3.
-on the uncommon side, Punishment or Circle Throw ._.
Psychic:
-Mega-Latias outstalls and out-damages.
-Stallbreaker Mew can PP stall it.
-Calm Mind mega-gardevoir can break it.

Electric:
-Nasty Plot Thundurus can break Set A
-Heliolisk hard-walls Set B, and provides Electric teams with excellent ground coverage to boot.
-Elektross has a variety of helpful moves (acid spray, super fang, dragon tail) to phaze out crobro.
-Mega-Ampharos with charge beam breaks it, but is a bit niche. I've seen chargebeam/dragon pulse/restalk mega-ampharos work though, although we're stretching.
-Zapdos pressure stall might work.
-Ample electric STAB and momentum to work around crobro, but if Set A sets up a calm mind, you need toxic.
Ice:
-Freeze Dry?
-Hex Froslass?
Water:
-Tentacruel takes out crobro and can severely weaken Set A, typically able to pull off two acid sprays before getting KOd by Psyshock.
-Crocune outstalls.
-Rest/Talk or Sub Mega-Gyarados both handle Slowbro, especially if they run Crunch.
-Mega-Sharpedo 2HKOs with Crunch.
-LO Adaptabiliy Crawdaunt 2HKOs with Crunch.
Fire:
-Charizard-Y can take out Crobro with Solar Beams, but can NOT take out Set A the same way.
-Fire lacks any physical attacker to threaten either slowbro set, even Victini bolt strikes are a 3HKO
-Chandelure with Hex or Shadow Ball will nix Slowbro if used early, but can be worn down by smart players due to rocks weakness.
-Volcarona is a tentative check.
-Volcanion, if released, seems like a decent check.
Ground:
-Gastrodon walls Crobro, and can toxic set A.
-um......... punishment Krookadile?
Rock:
-Cradily can wall Crobro, and toxic Set A.
-Shuckle Encore Antics
-Chimplup's Probopass set works, i guess .3.
Steel:
-Swords Dance Mega-Mawile if it's lucky enough to avoid burns.
-Specs Magnezone can KO Crobro and check Set A (if it's any less than +2).
-Ferrothorn can Leech Seed + Power Whip to whittle Mega-Slowbro down.
Flying:
-Nasty Plot Thundurus
-Mega-Altaria and Mega-Gyarados can set up on both Slowbro Sets.
-Mega-Charizard can set up on Crobro.
-Mega-Zard Y, if used, can take out Crobro.
-Flying is completely fucked if it is Set A tho.

Bug:
-Heracross 2HKOs with Mega-Horn.
-Volcarona with Roost is a tentative check.
-Mega-Beedrill can 2HKO with U-turn, but Set A can slack it off.
-Genesect can nearly OHKO with U-turn once SLowbro has Calm Minded enough for download to boost attack, and can KO with bug buzz if it boosts spA before it can calm mind at all.
Ghost:
-Hex handles Crobro, for those smart enough to use it.
-Crofagrigus and Crorotomb also outstall and outdamage crobro.
-Destiny Bond/Taunt is always an option.
-Trevenant handles Crobro and Set A fairly well. Leech Seed/Curse/Will o Wisp/Horn Leech are all moves that threaten Crobro, and lum berry harvest comes near to countering it.
Dark:
-Specs Hydreigon/Greninja with lucky flinches are all that will take down Set A) after it uses calm mind ;-;
-Punishment on Random Things
-Whirlwind.
-SD Bisharp if you're lucky.
Fairy:
-Unaware Clefable with Charge Beam
-Mega-Mawile can OHKO with Sucker Punch at +2
-Whimsicott can use encore to shut Slowbro down.
Dragon:
-Specs Hydreigon.
-Mega-Latias outstalls and outdamages.
-Mega-Altaria can set up on crobro.
-umm... power whip goodra?
Grass:
-Lucky plants. They Have Shaymin-Sky.
-Mega-Venusaur can outstall.
-Cradily can wall crobro and toxic Set A if it for some reason runs Storm Drain.
-Swords Dance/Nasty Plot Water Absorb Cacturne :I
Poison:
-Acid Spray Tentacruel takes out Crobro, but loses to Set A. There's always acid spray skuntank ._.
-Mega-Beedrill can 2HKO with U-turn, but Set A can just slack it off.
-Mega-Venusaur can outstall.
-Clear Smog Weezing.

Final Thoughts​

Mega-Slowbro is incredible strong. It has titanic defenses, having more physical bulk than vanilla Slowbro even without defense investment. It has a daunting 130 SpA stat and a wide movepool to abuse it with. It can stay healthy while waiting for the opportunity to mega-evolve through regenerator, scalding as it goes.

While certain monos can handle with minimal adjustment (electric, flying, or water), almost all other monos will struggle monumentally with it, and as a result we'll see over-centralization. Crobro, while easier to deal with, is still a large threat, and other sets have all the support they need on water and psychic to sweep.

Of course my brief analysis isn’t comparable with a suspect test, but still I think despite there being unexplored area in this new metagame and the pokemon having common weaknesses, Mega-Slowbro warrants a suspect for the monotype metagame.

Idk, just mai thoughts c:


Dun go hatin tho, Slowbro's still bae asf .3.

I've been testing out MegaBro for a while, I have a few things to say. Firstly, both sets need 252HP/252Def and a Bold nature. Secondly, the crobro set simply seems far worse than the standard CM set: while it can deal with toxic, it's far easier to take down through conventional means:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can be walled by slack off, but not by rest/talk. Moreover, toxic is a rather rare sight in monotype due to how offensive the metagame is, and the few cases where it is seen it's generally being used by normal stall teams or similar, which there are multiple things on both water and psychic team that can put a lot of pressure on (I found specs keldeo and banded victini made decent partners).

I also found that due to the offensive nature of the meta, very few teams were prepared to deal with mega slowbro once it set up, especially given that critical hits couldn't be relied upon. While I think the meta would improve were more people to run phazing moves and/or toxic, and balance out the meta a little more (to the extent that silly things like scarf greninja are once again unviable), at the same time I think that all this for a single pokemon would be too much. If M-Sableye didn't have magic bounce I might say give these megas a chance and let the meta adapt by running phazing or toxic, however this tactic still won't beat sableye and it would be too much to ask of the meta for a single pokemon to remain unbanned.

Because of this, Slowbronite should be suspect tested if not quickbanned.

 

[Salemance]

One thing to also consider is the "double dancer" bro set with iron defense and calm mind since that is also a bit of a bitch to fight at times.

Other ground options for fighting it are Freeze Dry Mamo and Quagsire (any of my sets would be good at that point but its just a stall war almost like it would be with Gastro) and Nidoking (tbolt varaints). It is worth mentioning the freez dry and tbolt are sub optimal moves at times (not worthless but not the immediate best moves in those slots) when mentioning the two already crowded move options.

I mean yah suspect him Im still all for.

 

[Freeroamer]

I brought this argument up in chat last night, and I'm still yet to receive a decent answer to it, if the numerous Flying users in this thread believe that there are things like Mega Sableye and Greninja that are broken and are worthy of a suspect, and yet Flying is still the dominant type despite these things being in the meta, how by further extension is Flying itself broken and not in need of balancing? Remember the point of suspecting and potentially banning things in Monotype is to try and make each type equally viable and I fail to see how we are doing that by constantly suggesting the suspect of things that will only make Flying stronger, while not discussing how Flying could be balanced. Just my thoughts.

(Note: not trying to call anyone out or anything like that, I just want to see if anyone has a good response to the above as I am yet to hear one)

EDIT: Also 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Slowbro takes physical hits better than 252 HP / 252+ Def Bro with lefties factored in so I can understand that spread for the CM set, it acts as a better mixed wall throughout games where you don't have the opportunity to CM up right away as well as providing more setup opportunities. Ik it seems counterproductive when CM boosts SpDef anyway, but I've rarely found I've needed any extra physical bulk.

 

[Salemance]

I brought this argument up in chat last night, and I'm still yet to receive a decent answer to it, if the numerous Flying users in this thread believe that there are things like Mega Sableye and Greninja that are broken and are worthy of a suspect, and yet Flying is still the dominant type despite these things being in the meta, how by further extension is Flying itself broken and not in need of balancing? Remember the point of suspecting and potentially banning things in Monotype is to try and make each type equally viable and I fail to see how we are doing that by constantly suggesting the suspect of things that will only make Flying stronger, while not discussing how Flying could be balanced. Just my thoughts.

(Note: not trying to call anyone out or anything like that, I just want to see if anyone has a good response to the above as I am yet to hear one)

Well best answer I can do is I can not immediately point out one over powered Mon that pushes flying over the edge and more just the whole amount of combinations and used in conjunction that makes it a bitch.

One of the easier ways I think to attenpting the balance is helping strip of it of one of its defensive cores (similar to how steel was delt) and possibly part of the offensive core (like said with char x). I mean only reason I see is just itsalot of variables to take into account making the difficulty of what pushes it over hard to pin down.

 

[Tyke]

I've been testing out MegaBro for a while, I have a few things to say. Firstly, both sets need 252HP/252Def and a Bold nature. Secondly, the crobro set simply seems far worse than the standard CM set: while it can deal with toxic, it's far easier to take down through conventional means:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can be walled by slack off, but not by rest/talk. Moreover, toxic is a rather rare sight in monotype due to how offensive the metagame is, and the few cases where it is seen it's generally being used by normal stall teams or similar, which there are multiple things on both water and psychic team that can put a lot of pressure on (I found specs keldeo and banded victini made decent partners).

I also found that due to the offensive nature of the meta, very few teams were prepared to deal with mega slowbro once it set up, especially given that critical hits couldn't be relied upon. While I think the meta would improve were more people to run phazing moves and/or toxic, and balance out the meta a little more (to the extent that silly things like scarf greninja are once again unviable), at the same time I think that all this for a single pokemon would be too much. If M-Sableye didn't have magic bounce I might say give these megas a chance and let the meta adapt by running phazing or toxic, however this tactic still won't beat sableye and it would be too much to ask of the meta for a single pokemon to remain unbanned.

Because of this, Slowbronite should be suspect tested if not quickbanned.

I agree with this phasing statement (although dragon tail hits mega sableye).

Also clear smog and haze still deal with both, and there are many defensive pokemon who can run it. The issue with mega slowbro is that it's still a threat unboosted, while Sableye becomes fairly harmless.

Also I'd say slack off sets don't need the 252 def investment. They are already bulkier than vanilla slowbro with 252 hp investment. Since slackbros don't have sleep turns, they aren't safe to set up on with swords dance.

Additionally, there are very few physical moves that target megabros weaknesses. Grass has the sparse few pokemon who learn power whip, Electric has wild charge that mega-bro can slack off through. Ghost has shadow claw and phantom force, run by nothing, and aegislash who can't break megabro with shadow sneak. Dark is usually knock off, already crippled against mega bro.

And While it may not need to run a whole 252 SpD EVs, doing so means that SE thunderbolts, dark pulse, or shadow balls becomes 3HKOs after a single calm mind.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I brought this argument up in chat last night, and I'm still yet to receive a decent answer to it, if the numerous Flying users in this thread believe that there are things like Mega Sableye and Greninja that are broken and are worthy of a suspect, and yet Flying is still the dominant type despite these things being in the meta, how by further extension is Flying itself broken and not in need of balancing? Remember the point of suspecting and potentially banning things in Monotype is to try and make each type equally viable and I fail to see how we are doing that by constantly suggesting the suspect of things that will only make Flying stronger, while not discussing how Flying could be balanced. Just my thoughts..

Define "Flying user"? Sure there are people who main it and consider it their favorite Type, but anyone who is knowledgeable enough to contribute to this Thread is capable of and has looked through the perspective of other Monotypes and yet still formed their opinion regarding whether Sableye-Mega and/or Greninja are unhealthy to the Metagame. If you'd like, I could quote the instances where they take a wider perspective as opposed to the Type they main. Having that been said, I don't think any player (at least here) should be labeled as a "[Insert Type Here] User" exclusively. By this I mean Croven and Arifeen in specific, but this could apply to anyone.

Now, as for the proposal itself. But in order to provide a counter argument against that, let's define what exactly the purpose the Banlist is. You are correct in that the purpose of the Banlist is to promote the use of each Type, but the Bans themselves are based on whether or not a Pokemon or Item or etc. is unhealthy to the Metagame. How something could be considered unhealthy from my interpretation is if they overshadow the rest of a player's options to the point that it's only viable, or worthwhile, to use it over other Types and/or Playstyles. According to that definition, Balanced Flying still competes with Balanced Water, Balanced Normal, Balanced Dragon (now w/ Altaria-Mega), and probably more that I can't think of at the moment. The other Playstyles I won't even mention to avoid stating the obvious. So according to my own interpretation of the purpose of a Banlist, Flying doesn't warrant a Nerf as it doesn't over-encourage players to use its acclaimed Balance Playstyle over that of the other Types. Now, it may be the best at that, but being a good Poke didn't get Keldeo Banned. So, in conclusion, popularity does not reflect whether a Type is healthy or not to the Metagame. And, as it stands, neither Flying nor its individual Pokemon can be considered Broken. Some may consider them "OP" at what they do, and they very well may be, but nothing that I can think of Breaks or is unhealthy to the Metagame. The only Poke that could be considered an exception imo is Landorus-Incarnate, but that's another Post in itself.

So I disagree that Flying should be nerfed on the basis that many if not most people use it. And if you feel that it should, then please propose how exactly that could be done because right now I can't think of a neither a method or a reason to justify it.

As for the Bantalk. What I think is fueling these discussion at the moment is hype. While we have experienced the new ORAS Mono Tier for quite a while now, I think it's safe to say that the players themselves have yet to adjust to the Offensive nature of the new Meta, and are adapting to it at separate rates- some have caught on to it, some haven't. As a result, many are having trouble against the new Megas, not knowing how to react to them appropriately, causing their opinion of them to be premature. This applies to and especially to Sableye-Mega, who I personally do not think is a problem. But even I am not fully accustomed to the new Tier, so I'll reserve that discussion for later. I just want to point out that if anything were blatantly Broken, it will be Quickbanned. Other than that, give both yourself and your fellow players a chance to find resolutions to the new Megas before you jump to the Suspect conclusion.

 

[Croven]

Define "Flying user"? Sure there are people who main it and consider it their favorite Type, but anyone who is knowledgeable enough to contribute to this Thread is capable of and has looked through the perspective of other Monotypes and yet still formed their opinion regarding whether Sableye-Mega and/or Greninja are unhealthy to the Metagame. If you'd like, I could quote the instances where they take a wider perspective as opposed to the Type they main. Having that been said, I don't think any player (at least here) should be labeled as a "[Insert Type Here] User" exclusively. By this I mean Croven and Arifeen in specific, but this could apply to anyone.

Now, as for the proposal itself. But in order to provide a counter argument against that, let's define what exactly the purpose the Banlist is. You are correct in that the purpose of the Banlist is to promote the use of each Type, but the Bans themselves are based on whether or not a Pokemon or Item or etc. is unhealthy to the Metagame. How something could be considered unhealthy from my interpretation is if they overshadow the rest of a player's options to the point that it's only viable, or worthwhile, to use it over other Types and/or Playstyles. According to that definition, Balanced Flying still competes with Balanced Water, Balanced Normal, Balanced Dragon (now w/ Altaria-Mega), and probably more that I can't think of at the moment. The other Playstyles I won't even mention to avoid stating the obvious. So according to my own interpretation of the purpose of a Banlist, Flying doesn't warrant a Nerf as it doesn't over-encourage players to use its acclaimed Balance Playstyle over that of the other Types. Now, it may be the best at that, but being a good Poke didn't get Keldeo Banned. So, in conclusion, popularity does not reflect whether a Type is healthy or not to the Metagame. And, as it stands, neither Flying nor its individual Pokemon can be considered Broken. Some may consider them "OP" at what they do, and they very well may be, but nothing that I can think of Breaks or is unhealthy to the Metagame. The only Poke that could be considered an exception imo is Landorus-Incarnate, but that's another Post in itself.

So I disagree that Flying should be nerfed on the basis that many if not most people use it. And if you feel that it should, then please propose how exactly that could be done because right now I can't think of a neither a method or a reason to justify it.
As for the Bantalk. What I think is fueling these discussion at the moment is hype. While we have experienced the new ORAS Mono Tier for quite a while now, I think it's safe to say that the players themselves have yet to adjust to the Offensive nature of the new Meta, and are adapting to it at separate rates- some have caught on to it, some haven't. As a result, many are having trouble against the new Megas, not knowing how to react to them appropriately, causing their opinion of them to be premature. This applies to and especially to Sableye-Mega, who I personally do not think is a problem. But even I am not fully accustomed to the new Tier, so I'll reserve that discussion for later. I just want to point out that if anything were blatantly Broken, it will be Quickbanned. Other than that, give both yourself and your fellow players a chance to find resolutions to the new Megas before you jump to the Suspect conclusion.

I don't mind being called a Flying user c:
So Enoch has a point here, that there are different types that also compete with Flying and give it a run for its money. However, the issue at hand (at least this is what I believe) is the fact that literally every single ban that we are suggesting (aside from Lando-I who has not been mentioned in the past like, 10 pages) would just put Flying further and further ahead of every other type, which is definitely not what we are intending to achieve. If we ban a few broken mons which happens to shoot Flying far above everything else, then a nerf would be necessary. However, I do agree with Enoch here. As of right now, Flying does not warrant an immediate nerf. That's why I have been saying, every time when suspecting Zard X has come up, that we wait for after the most broken mons are banned before deciding what to do with Flying. For example, banning Genesect and Greninja will make Flying's options open up even wider, and we all know it already has a limitless pool of options. However, the diversity the bans give to other types might counteract that and give more viable options to battle Flying. IMO, there is pretty much no way to theorymon this, since a lot of it is how people will take advantage of the new bans and how they will adapt to the new meta, so there's no point in trying to predict what will happen.

Tl;dr Flying does not warrant a nerf right now, but if in the near future, after the suspects that are being discussed atm happen (or don't happen, if they are deemed unworthy of a suspect), we should observe the meta for a little while and make a conclusion on whether Flying has flown too high, deserving of a nerf, or if the scenario is the same now, or similar, and that Flying doesn't deserve a nerf. Be patient and wait for a while before discussing nerfing Flying. And yeah that's what I think of this whole topic right now.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I don't mind being called a Flying user c:
So Enoch has a point here, that there are different types that also compete with Flying and give it a run for its money. However, the issue at hand (at least this is what I believe) is the fact that literally every single ban that we are suggesting (aside from Lando-I who has not been mentioned in the past like, 10 pages) would just put Flying further and further ahead of every other type, which is definitely not what we are intending to achieve. If we ban a few broken mons which happens to shoot Flying far above everything else, then a nerf would be necessary. However, I do agree with Enoch here. As of right now, Flying does not warrant an immediate nerf. That's why I have been saying, every time when suspecting Zard X has come up, that we wait for after the most broken mons are banned before deciding what to do with Flying. For example, banning Genesect and Greninja will make Flying's options open up even wider, and we all know it already has a limitless pool of options. However, the diversity the bans give to other types might counteract that and give more viable options to battle Flying. IMO, there is pretty much no way to theorymon this, since a lot of it is how people will take advantage of the new bans and how they will adapt to the new meta, so there's no point in trying to predict what will happen.

Tl;dr Flying does not warrant a nerf right now, but if in the near future, after the suspects that are being discussed atm happen (or don't happen, if they are deemed unworthy of a suspect), we should observe the meta for a little while and make a conclusion on whether Flying has flown too high, deserving of a nerf, or if the scenario is the same now, or similar, and that Flying doesn't deserve a nerf. Be patient and wait for a while before discussing nerfing Flying. And yeah that's what I think of this whole topic right now.

The thing is, how exactly would that be done, and by what reasoning would it be justified? As I've said, I don't consider anything on Flying to be unhealthy to the Metagame, neither independently or in combination with it's Teammates. Flying is just as good as Water is, and if Flying is nerfed, well then shit, Water should most definitely be nerfed too. As it stands, the main arguement against it is that it's a popular, easy-to-get-into Type. It has it's drawbacks that people seem to forget. Sure, it has Defog, but honestly if your making a Team without preparing to deal with the Standard Defensive Flying Core or at least Defog, your the one to blame, not the Type. And yes, not every Monotype has those options, but the point is that it's still predictable as far as Balanced, which i assume is the Playstyle we are speaking about here, goes. I could make a full Post arguing against the nerf, but I don't want to detract from the current topic to this one. The purpose of a Banlist is to make each Type as viable as possible, and Nerfing Flying isn't going to make Grass or Fighting any better (weak example I know, but you get the jist).

 

[Croven]

The thing is, how exactly would that be done, and by what reasoning would it be justified? As I've said, I don't consider anything on Flying to be unhealthy to the Metagame, neither independently or in combination with it's Teammates. Flying is just as good as Water is, and if Flying is nerfed, well then shit, Water should most definitely be nerfed too. As it stands, the main arguement against it is that it's a popular, easy-to-get-into Type. It has it's drawbacks that people seem to forget. Sure, it has Defog, but honestly if your making a Team without preparing to deal with the Standard Defensive Flying Core or at least Defog, your the one to blame, not the Type. And yes, not every Monotype has those options, but the point is that it's still predictable as far as Balanced, which i assume is the Playstyle we are speaking about here, goes. I could make a full Post arguing against the nerf, but I don't want to detract from the current topic to this one. The purpose of a Banlist is to make each Type as viable as possible, and Nerfing Flying isn't going to make Grass or Fighting any better (weak example I know, but you get the jist).

Yeah, I mean, I get what you mean, nerfing Flying is really hard as there isn't anything blatantly broken. It's more of the mons fit together so well it's like pieces of a puzzle. I haven't seen many types against Water, so I can't argue that point at all, go to Sae or someone who has used both Water and Flying to find out how they compare. Enoch, right now what you are arguing is giving a nerf to Flying as it is right now. And I agree with your point that it doesn't deserve a nerf as it stands right now. But it is a possibility that the bans will give Flying far more room to maneuver, and make it far more unpredictable (at least in higher level play, where generic flying teams aren't spammed religiously). If this is the case, it will become far more potent than Water, as that's the example you gave, and that's why we should keep in the back of our minds the fact that it could be worthy of suspect. Basically, since most of the discussed bans only help Flying, if it grows too much through the lessening of threats like Greninja and Genesect, it needs to be nerfed. Right now, this is an irrelevant topic that, like you said, slightly detracts from the topic at hand.

 

[SuperShape]

Ban Greninja,Mega Medicham,Mega Slowbro,Mega Sableye,Kyurem-White,Genesect and Skymin :D

>Ban Greninja
>Has Greninja as part of forum sig

 

[SuperShape]

Greninja shouldn't be banned since there are many ways to counter it, and it also has some set backs such as:

1. Suffers from the 4-slot-syndrome
2. It's weak to most priority moves
3. Conkeldurr can easily get rid of greninja regardless of the fact that greninja can learn Extrasensory
4. He can barely take a hit from anything
5. People haven't been complaining about Greninja since X/Y, now since Greninja gets Gunk Shot, people have been getting butt hurt (Simple Solution: Ban Gunk Shot from Greninja)
6. It has a 95 attack stat and a 103 Special Attack (So the amazing move pool could balance it out)

Some trainers are very dependent on Greninja because it's probably the fastest water type alive, it also helps deals with grass pokes.
As for Dark it helps against psychic with extrasensory and it also serves as a spikes set up.

In my opinion, Greninja is fine the way it is. If people that can't counter Greninja then that's their problem for not fine tuning their team. So my I think we should just ban Gunk Shot from Greninja.

 

[DoW]

In terms of flying, I do feel that the type is overpowered and could do with a nerf. The reason it hasn't been nerfed is that there's no simple way of nerfing it: there's no standout mon that you could ban to make it more reasonable, nor even any complex bans I can think of that actually make much sense. Its main problem is having far too many good options, meaning whatever you ban there's something to take its place and whatever nerfs you try to think of there's other pokemon that will do the job just as well but slightly differently.

SuperShape please try to understand that this is a more complex issue than your posts suggest, and that there are a number of things to bear in mind. For example, you state that conkeldurr can beat it and this is true, however that only helps fighting teams deal with it rather than the multitude of teams it can do well against, including not only fighting but also ground, grass, and to some extent rock, flying, fairy, water, and a number of others. In order to argue effectively whether or not it deserves a ban, relevant calcs would be appreciated, such as the one I posted a while ago showing scarf garchomp was a check to greninja if it used grass knot:
252 SpA Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 142-168 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Moreover, its 4mss and ability to use gunk shot need to be discussed in more depth: What sets can it run to hit what things hard? What is it about gunk shot that makes it more broken than it was before? Is there actually a good reason to ban gunk shot on greninja? Not to mention, gunk shot + greninja would be a highly complex ban and thus would require an extremely good reason to implement. Mandibuzz without defog would be nowhere near OU rank, yet it wasn't allowed in UU without defog because this would be far too complex (and also not how usage-based tiers work but that's not the point). In order to ban something, it's best to make the ban as simple as possible and have extremely good reasons for using that exact ban, rather than banning something new because it seems slightly better.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

In terms of flying, I do feel that the type is overpowered and could do with a nerf. The reason it hasn't been nerfed is that there's no simple way of nerfing it: there's no standout mon that you could ban to make it more reasonable, nor even any complex bans I can think of that actually make much sense. Its main problem is having far too many good options, meaning whatever you ban there's something to take its place and whatever nerfs you try to think of there's other pokemon that will do the job just as well but slightly differently.

Okay, so I am going to paraphrase part of your Post:

"I agree that Flying is an overpowered Type that should be nerfed. However, it hasn't been nerfed because no Pokemon on it warrants a Ban, nor are there any complex bans that I can think of that would justify the nerf. The reason I think Flying should be nerfed is because of it's diversity ('it has far too many good options'), meaning that even if we came up with a solution, it would be redundant because another Pokemon can simply replace something."

Do you realize that you have practically agreed with my reasoning against the idea of a nerf while contradicting your main point? Your reasoning behind your stance on the situation is basically because it's versatile, but since when does versatility = OP (in terms of Teams, and not individual Pokemon)? According to this argument, which I have pointed out before, Water should also be nerfed. I could understand had you said it's diversity makes it unpredictable and helps it achieve an unreasonable amount of coverage (which wouldn't be a valid argument but this is an example nonetheless), but your opinion has little to no factual structure behind it to persuade me. And, speaking of persuasion, you proceed to say that nerfs couldn't have been done before because there is no reason to do so ("there's no standout mon that you could ban to make it more reasonable"), which is exactly what I say here:

And, as it stands, neither Flying nor its individual Pokemon can be considered Broken. Some may consider them "OP" at what they do, and they very well may be, but nothing that I can think of Breaks or is unhealthy to the Metagame.

Which in turn works against your point.

So, if any of you feel Flying deserves to be nerfed, please provide a solid reasoning that follows the idea behind a Banlist, along with a solution. We can present the problem all we want, but if no solution is given, then what is the point at all?

P.S: No offense Articuno 1, I tried to remain as impartial and objective as possible.

 

[DoW]

Okay, so I am going to paraphrase part of your Post:

"I agree that Flying is an overpowered Type that should be nerfed. However, it hasn't been nerfed because no Pokemon on it warrants a Ban, nor are there any complex bans that I can think of that would justify the nerf. The reason I think Flying should be nerfed is because of it's diversity ('it has far too many good options'), meaning that even if we came up with a solution, it would be redundant because another Pokemon can simply replace something."

Do you realize that you have practically agreed with my reasoning against the idea of a nerf while contradicting your main point? Your reasoning behind your stance on the situation is basically because it's versatile, but since when does versatility = OP (in terms of Teams, and not individual Pokemon)? According to this argument, which I have pointed out before, Water should also be nerfed. I could understand had you said it's diversity makes it unpredictable and helps it achieve an unreasonable amount of coverage (which wouldn't be a valid argument but this is an example nonetheless), but your opinion has little to no factual structure behind it to persuade me. And, speaking of persuasion, you proceed to say that nerfs couldn't have been done before because there is no reason to do so ("there's no standout mon that you could ban to make it more reasonable"), which is exactly what I say here:



Which in turn works against your point.

So, if any of you feel Flying deserves to be nerfed, please provide a solid reasoning that follows the idea behind a Banlist, along with a solution. We can present the problem all we want, but if no solution is given, then what is the point at all?

P.S: No offense Articuno 1, I tried to remain as impartial and objective as possible.

Hmm... I can see what you're trying to say, but I disagree. I'm not saying flying is OP due to having too many options per se, it's just extremely difficult to nerf because it has a vast number of good options which can take the place of anything that might be banned.

To try and explain it more clearly... the thing that makes flying broken is, at its most basic, that a standard flying team stands a higher chance of winning than a standard non-flying team in a game between equally competent players. The reason flying stands a higher chance of winning is due, I think, to a large number of factors as shown by the way flying can run offense or balance very well, and the idea of "generic flying" is in my opinion somewhat misleading as there are a vast number of variations flying teams can run while still being an extremely strong team. What makes flying broken, in general, is that the pokemon support each other very well (see the large number of specially defensive walls and physical walls, which are very good at supporting each other, running surprise sets, for example). These pokemon aren't broken on their own or on other teams, but the support between the team members is surprisingly good. Take Zard-X for example. On fire teams, it's obviously not broken. On flying teams, however, there is much better defog support, Landorus to take out the grounds and azumarill that try to wall it, good pivots so it can come in easily, good SR setters to help it sweep, and basically all it ever wanted in its journey towards getting banned for being OP, despite not in itself being broken (I would argue). In return, it provides an electric resistance, ice neutrality, and can adapt its set to fit in with whatever team it may support best.
And so people argue that Zard-X should be suspected. It seems to be very strong, and it's certainly true it does its job extremely well when on a flying team. But the problem isn't Zard-X, but the support it's recieving. On a fire team, Zard-X is a far less menacing pokemon due to sharing the edgequake weakness the rest of the team dislikes so much, providing yet another physical attacker or pokemon with burning moves, adding another SR weakness which fire struggles to deal with and finding it much harder to come in or set up. And more, were we to ban Zard-X on flying, suddenly people could use M-Gyara instead. Sure, it's not as good, but between being a very good DD sweeper, resisting ice, being very bulky (especially with intimidate thrown in), and potentially running the rest/talk set where it still has usable recovery, it could fill the same niche to a point where flying were only a little less broken and there was yet another ban.

So because of this, I'd like to suggest it's not the diversity that makes flying broken, but the support in general, which is an extremely hard thing to ban or nerf. Moreover, just because it's hard to say what it is about a team that makes it OP does not stop the team from being OP. If we couldn't say why the sky was blue, that wouldn't stop the sky being blue. Flying is unhealthy for the metagame in this generation in the same way that dragon was (and arguably weather teams were) unhealthy for the metagame last generation. There is no single thing in itself I would say is broken, nor the versatility, but rather the way the team works together causes it to be stronger than other types trying to do the same, and this forces teambuilding restrictions in a way similar to a single overpowered sweeper may.

And please note I've spent a long time trying to work out how to nerf flying, from restricting to a certain number of OU mons to banning defog to banning a stupidly large number of mons, none seem to make sense. This is not to say something won't be sorted out about the issue. I just wish to explain both why something does need to be one and why there's little discussion about what should be done: basically I have no idea what needs to be done and I've yet to see an idea I think is particularly good. If anything, perhaps a Lando-i ban for flying would be a good start as this is one of the few places I can't see too many pokemon lining up to take its place, but it's certainly not what I'd call an obvious solution to the problem.

tl;dr flying does need a nerf, I just don't know what nerf.

Well, for once I wrote a rant long enough that it crashed Chrome and I had to finish it on Firefox. Me: 1, Computer: 0, anyone who's actually still reading these things: wow I'm impressed.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Hmm... I can see what you're trying to say, but I disagree. I'm not saying flying is OP due to having too many options per se, it's just extremely difficult to nerf because it has a vast number of good options which can take the place of anything that might be banned.

To try and explain it more clearly... the thing that makes flying broken is, at its most basic, that a standard flying team stands a higher chance of winning than a standard non-flying team in a game between equally competent players. The reason flying stands a higher chance of winning is due, I think, to a large number of factors as shown by the way flying can run offense or balance very well, and the idea of "generic flying" is in my opinion somewhat misleading as there are a vast number of variations flying teams can run while still being an extremely strong team. What makes flying broken, in general, is that the pokemon support each other very well (see the large number of specially defensive walls and physical walls, which are very good at supporting each other, running surprise sets, for example). These pokemon aren't broken on their own or on other teams, but the support between the team members is surprisingly good. Take Zard-X for example. On fire teams, it's obviously not broken. On flying teams, however, there is much better defog support, Landorus to take out the grounds and azumarill that try to wall it, good pivots so it can come in easily, good SR setters to help it sweep, and basically all it ever wanted in its journey towards getting banned for being OP, despite not in itself being broken (I would argue). In return, it provides an electric resistance, ice neutrality, and can adapt its set to fit in with whatever team it may support best.
And so people argue that Zard-X should be suspected. It seems to be very strong, and it's certainly true it does its job extremely well when on a flying team. But the problem isn't Zard-X, but the support it's recieving. On a fire team, Zard-X is a far less menacing pokemon due to sharing the edgequake weakness the rest of the team dislikes so much, providing yet another physical attacker or pokemon with burning moves, adding another SR weakness which fire struggles to deal with and finding it much harder to come in or set up. And more, were we to ban Zard-X on flying, suddenly people could use M-Gyara instead. Sure, it's not as good, but between being a very good DD sweeper, resisting ice, being very bulky (especially with intimidate thrown in), and potentially running the rest/talk set where it still has usable recovery, it could fill the same niche to a point where flying were only a little less broken and there was yet another ban.

So because of this, I'd like to suggest it's not the diversity that makes flying broken, but the support in general, which is an extremely hard thing to ban or nerf. Moreover, just because it's hard to say what it is about a team that makes it OP does not stop the team from being OP. If we couldn't say why the sky was blue, that wouldn't stop the sky being blue. Flying is unhealthy for the metagame in this generation in the same way that dragon was (and arguably weather teams were) unhealthy for the metagame last generation. There is no single thing in itself I would say is broken, nor the versatility, but rather the way the team works together causes it to be stronger than other types trying to do the same, and this forces teambuilding restrictions in a way similar to a single overpowered sweeper may.

And please note I've spent a long time trying to work out how to nerf flying, from restricting to a certain number of OU mons to banning defog to banning a stupidly large number of mons, none seem to make sense. This is not to say something won't be sorted out about the issue. I just wish to explain both why something does need to be one and why there's little discussion about what should be done: basically I have no idea what needs to be done and I've yet to see an idea I think is particularly good. If anything, perhaps a Lando-i ban for flying would be a good start as this is one of the few places I can't see too many pokemon lining up to take its place, but it's certainly not what I'd call an obvious solution to the problem.

tl;dr flying does need a nerf, I just don't know what nerf.

Well, for once I wrote a rant long enough that it crashed Chrome and I had to finish it on Firefox. Me: 1, Computer: 0, anyone who's actually still reading these things: wow I'm impressed.

lol, I read. Thanks for thoroughly explaining that to me.

So because of this, I'd like to suggest it's not the diversity that makes flying broken, but the support in general, which is an extremely hard thing to ban or nerf... There is no single thing in itself I would say is broken, nor the versatility, but rather the way the team works together causes it to be stronger than other types trying to do the same, and this forces teambuilding restrictions in a way similar to a single overpowered sweeper may.

The above pretty much reflects my own thoughts of the Type as far as how it works is concerned. However, my interpretation of Broken seems to differ from others. I'll use the Talonflame Ban as an example to illustrate my point. I think we can all agree that Talonflame was Banned because it decreased the Viability of other Types, right? So in my eyes, the Ban was justified, as it allowed other Types to breathe and freed them from an auto-loss. Flying in the current Metagame just doesn't seem to auto-win against other Types. In fact, that with the new Megas, Flying has actually gotten weaker (and by that I mean less "OP") than it had been in the previous Tier. In addition to this, the Pokemon that are being proposed for Suspect all hurt Flying, giving the indication that there are indeed some Pokes out there that can handle Flying. So, to me, very much unlike Talonflame, Flying doesn't seem to fit the definition of Broken: A.) Other Monotypes such as Normal, Dragon (now w/ Mega-Alt), and especially Water each have respectably Viable Balanced Playstyles that gives the players reasonable options over Flying- basically, Flying actually does not have a monopoly over the Balanced Playstyle, B.) Flying doesn't auto-win against other Types. It must work to stir clear of Stealth Rocks, using one of the most common Cores in Monotype to accomplish this. And while it may have many variations that it can use, such as Taunt Thundurus-T, each of the variants share common Checks/Counters; it's not like Lucario-Mega, where if it was one Variant you won, the other you lost, and C.) As well as the Type works as you have laid out above, none of that leads it to either A or B. For these reasons, I do not consider Flying to be unhealthy to the Metagame, but rather an extremely good Monotype that will undoubtedly attract popularity in a fashion similar to Gen. V Steel.

I've spoken to DM35 about this as well, and he seemed to share your stance on this for the most part. He brought up a good point, however: "...people are discussing the suspect of things (such as Greninja and Kyurem-B) that if they were gone from the meta, would only serve to make flying stronger". Basically, if Greninja and Kyurem-B are to be Banned, then perhaps that would be the force needed to push Flying to A and B. Having that been said, what should be focused on right now is whether Greninja is even Broken/unhealthy to the Metagame or not. Once we have determined that, then we could work together as a Community to fix the Flying problem. But until then, I'd say the main focuses should be Greninja and Slowbro-Mega.

Thank you for clarifying, your point is much clearer now. I don't agree, but I at least understand what is trying to be said.

 

[DoW]

lol, I read. Thanks for thoroughly explaining that to me.

The above pretty much reflects my own thoughts of the Type as far as how it works is concerned. However, my interpretation of Broken seems to differ from others. I'll use the Talonflame Ban as an example to illustrate my point. I think we can all agree that Talonflame was Banned because it decreased the Viability of other Types, right? So in my eyes, the Ban was justified, as it allowed other Types to breathe and freed them from an auto-loss. Flying in the current Metagame just doesn't seem to auto-win against other Types. In fact, that with the new Megas, Flying has actually gotten weaker (and by that I mean less "OP") than it had been in the previous Tier. In addition to this, the Pokemon that are being proposed for Suspect all hurt Flying, giving the indication that there are indeed some Pokes out there that can handle Flying. So, to me, very much unlike Talonflame, Flying doesn't seem to fit the definition of Broken: A.) Other Monotypes such as Normal, Dragon (now w/ Mega-Alt), and especially Water each have respectably Viable Balanced Playstyles that gives the players reasonable options over Flying- basically, Flying actually does not have a monopoly over the Balanced Playstyle, B.) Flying doesn't auto-win against other Types. It must work to stir clear of Stealth Rocks, using one of the most common Cores in Monotype to accomplish this. And while it may have many variations that it can use, such as Taunt Thundurus-T, each of the variants share common Checks/Counters; it's not like Lucario-Mega, where if it was one Variant you won, the other you lost, and C.) As well as the Type works as you have laid out above, none of that leads it to either A or B. For these reasons, I do not consider Flying to be unhealthy to the Metagame, but rather an extremely good Monotype that will undoubtedly attract popularity in a fashion similar to Gen. V Steel.

I've spoken to DM35 about this as well, and he seemed to share your stance on this for the most part. He brought up a good point, however: "...people are discussing the suspect of things (such as Greninja and Kyurem-B) that if they were gone from the meta, would only serve to make flying stronger". Basically, if Greninja and Kyurem-B are to be Banned, then perhaps that would be the force needed to push Flying to A and B. Having that been said, what should be focused on right now is whether Greninja is even Broken/unhealthy to the Metagame or not. Once we have determined that, then we could work together as a Community to fix the Flying problem. But until then, I'd say the main focuses should be Greninja and Slowbro-Mega.

Thank you for clarifying, your point is much clearer now. I don't agree, but I at least understand what is trying to be said.

Hmm, I do see your point in that the new megas have made flying seem less overpowered, although my response to that is going to be that we don't know which megas will be banned, nor which will prove to be more or less effective than previously thought or made more or less effective when other bans come into place (much like M-Garde, M-Medi and M-hera becoming big after aegi's ban). It may well turn out to be the case flying has less of an advantage than it did before, which would be great. I certainly agree that it's a good type in terms of not utterly squishing any one particular type:

>>> ratio('Flying','Bug')
Flying wins: 1139, Bug wins: 542, true ratio: 0.6775728732897085
>>> ratio('Fire','Bug')
Fire wins: 797, Bug wins: 349, true ratio: 0.6954624781849913
>>> ratio('Flying','Fighting')
Flying wins: 1269, Fighting wins: 610, true ratio: 0.6753592336349122
>>> ratio('Psychic','Fighting')
Psychic wins: 1098, Fighting wins: 401, true ratio: 0.7324883255503669

I think these show that while flying certainly does well against bug and fighting, it has less of a type advantage against them than other types may. If it does turn out that it's no more powerful than other types, it would be great to have in the meta, certainly.

I'm also not sure Stealth Rock is that much of a weakness for flying. As someone who played flying in gen 5, and also looking at the struggles of fire and ice teams, I don't think it's particularly bad for flying due to a number of things, such as multiple defoggers (more than you can choose between almost), a number of mons that don't care too much about rocks such as Landorus, Skarmory, Tornadus-t, and roost on everything so that if you're worried about rocks you can just heal off the damage. It's still something you've definitely got to think about, sure, but one of the things I tried for a flying nerf was flying without defog, which was just completely different entirely, and effectively unplayable (at least, compared to top-level teams).

But yeah, I think the thing to do is focus on the new megas, alongside greninja and perhaps landorus-i if people still think it's broken. In a month's time we should have things sorted and the metagame settling down hopefully, in which case we can look once again at whether flying needs a nerf I guess.

 

[SuperShape]

In terms of flying, I do feel that the type is overpowered and could do with a nerf. The reason it hasn't been nerfed is that there's no simple way of nerfing it: there's no standout mon that you could ban to make it more reasonable, nor even any complex bans I can think of that actually make much sense. Its main problem is having far too many good options, meaning whatever you ban there's something to take its place and whatever nerfs you try to think of there's other pokemon that will do the job just as well but slightly differently.

SuperShape please try to understand that this is a more complex issue than your posts suggest, and that there are a number of things to bear in mind. For example, you state that conkeldurr can beat it and this is true, however that only helps fighting teams deal with it rather than the multitude of teams it can do well against, including not only fighting but also ground, grass, and to some extent rock, flying, fairy, water, and a number of others. In order to argue effectively whether or not it deserves a ban, relevant calcs would be appreciated, such as the one I posted a while ago showing scarf garchomp was a check to greninja if it used grass knot:
252 SpA Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 142-168 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Moreover, its 4mss and ability to use gunk shot need to be discussed in more depth: What sets can it run to hit what things hard? What is it about gunk shot that makes it more broken than it was before? Is there actually a good reason to ban gunk shot on greninja? Not to mention, gunk shot + greninja would be a highly complex ban and thus would require an extremely good reason to implement. Mandibuzz without defog would be nowhere near OU rank, yet it wasn't allowed in UU without defog because this would be far too complex (and also not how usage-based tiers work but that's not the point). In order to ban something, it's best to make the ban as simple as possible and have extremely good reasons for using that exact ban, rather than banning something new because it seems slightly better.

Many trainers rely on Greninja, but others are complaining about its giant move pool.
I think a complex ban from its move pool is able to keep both sides happy.

 

[Tyke]

Many trainers rely on Greninja, but others are complaining about its giant move pool.
I think a complex ban from its move pool is able to keep both sides happy.

What moves would you ban? Or would you ban a certain combination of moves? Maybe we could make all greninjas not holding an iron ball illegal?

Once you open the floodgates to complex bans the issue becomes a lot more complicated and subject to bias IMO

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Hmm, I do see your point in that the new megas have made flying seem less overpowered, although my response to that is going to be that we don't know which megas will be banned, nor which will prove to be more or less effective than previously thought or made more or less effective when other bans come into place (much like M-Garde, M-Medi and M-hera becoming big after aegi's ban). It may well turn out to be the case flying has less of an advantage than it did before, which would be great. I certainly agree that it's a good type in terms of not utterly squishing any one particular type:

>>> ratio('Flying','Bug')[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][FONT='Book Antiqua'][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(20, 20, 20)]Flying wins: 1139, Bug wins: 542, true ratio: 0.6775728732897085
>>> ratio('Fire','Bug')
Fire wins: 797, Bug wins: 349, true ratio: 0.6954624781849913
>>> ratio('Flying','Fighting')
Flying wins: 1269, Fighting wins: 610, true ratio: 0.6753592336349122
>>> ratio('Psychic','Fighting')
Psychic wins: 1098, Fighting wins: 401, true ratio: 0.7324883255503669

I think these show that while flying certainly does well against bug and fighting, it has less of a type advantage against them than other types may. If it does turn out that it's no more powerful than other types, it would be great to have in the meta, certainly.

I'm also not sure Stealth Rock is that much of a weakness for flying. As someone who played flying in gen 5, and also looking at the struggles of fire and ice teams, I don't think it's particularly bad for flying due to a number of things, such as multiple defoggers (more than you can choose between almost), a number of mons that don't care too much about rocks such as Landorus, Skarmory, Tornadus-t, and roost on everything so that if you're worried about rocks you can just heal off the damage. It's still something you've definitely got to think about, sure, but one of the things I tried for a flying nerf was flying without defog, which was just completely different entirely, and effectively unplayable (at least, compared to top-level teams).

But yeah, I think the thing to do is focus on the new megas, alongside greninja and perhaps landorus-i if people still think it's broken. In a month's time we should have things sorted and the metagame settling down hopefully, in which case we can look once again at whether flying needs a nerf I guess.

I agree, at least a month should pass before we officially have Bantalk as to give us time to thoroughly learn the new Metagame and form solid arguments. Nothing bar the most unnecessary and least deserving Dragon MEvo has proven to be blatantly Broken, so allowing the Metagame to adjust to the new Threats will determine whether or not they should stay or should go.

As for right now, however, there is nothing that I would consider Broken or unhealthy to the Metagame besides Slowbro-Mega, and even that I'm unsure of since I haven't seen or used it that much. Greninja I feel is just as bad as it was in XY, except that I can hit Fairies on Dark now, which could actually be considered beneficial to the Metagame as it provides more Balance to the Dark V.S. Fairy Matchup. Medicham-Mega is debatable since the reasoning behind it is that is has little to no Switch Ins V.S. Steel, Rock, Ice, and etc, but, unlike Talonflame, no one to my knowledge is forced to run unorthodox Sets that they wouldn't otherwise run V.S. Fighting anyways. The same could apply to Gallade-Mega, who's Speed Tier is really on relevant to outpacing the Genies, Garchomp, and maybe that random Helioisk or something as most 100+ Spd Pokemon including the aforementioned ones typically run Scarf. With this in mind Gallade's lack of immediate power may make Medicham the more threatening of the two as far as the Rock, Steel, and Ice Matchup is concerned, but again I haven had the time to determine whether Knock Off+Close Combat > HJK from Gallade makes it more threatening than the initial power of Megacham. As for the others, I think we can all agree even now that none of them are even close to Broken/unhealthy. Not even going to mention Kyurem-B. Only time will tell. So for now, I'd say postpone the Bantalk for now, and instead share cool Sets for the new Megas, how the Tier has changed due to them, and how awesome it is that Nani Man is finally back.

 

[DoW]

Many trainers rely on Greninja, but others are complaining about its giant move pool.
I think a complex ban from its move pool is able to keep both sides happy.

It's true that many trainers rely on greninja, although I'm unconvinced that other pokemon might be able to do a similar job to it, although less well. Hydreigon, for example, is a decent special scarf to use on dark teams, and although it's slower it's got more power behind it.
Moreover, the giant movepool may be the problem with greninja, but just picking one move to ban on it won't solve any problems. People were complaining about greninja before it got gunk shot due to its Hydro Pump/Grass Knot/Ice Beam coverage completely destroying ground, for example. Banning gunk shot would, in fact, make this combination of three moves more common rather than less, thus making it more difficult for ground to deal with. What we should focus on specifically is what (if anything) makes greninja broken rather than what it is people complain about. There's always going to be people calling for a (non-mega) sableye ban because they don't know how to deal with it, this doesn't mean it's anywhere near broken. Rather, we should focus on what combinations of moves greninja can run, whether these combinations allow it to beat a number of teams with a extreme ease, and if there is such a set we should at that point use the information to determine what actions should be taken to deal with it.

The problem with complex bans in general is that we want the metagame to be as simple as possible. When someone's coming into the metagame, we want them to be able to look at the tier list and see what it is they're allowed to use, as this allows new people to come into the game easily and keeps the playerbase strong. Moreover, we want to be able to explain to people why certain things are banned (for example, talon was capable of taking out grass, fighting and bug teams with very little effort), and this not only helps new people become adjusted to the meta but also means we know why it's banned: If we can't explain why something's banned then why should it be banned? If there's no logical reason for that particular thing to be banned then why should it be banned? After all, we want a metagame without things being banned for no reason.

And finally, just because a complex ban would stop something from being broken doesn't mean it's fine we should use it. For example, there have been suggestions that we allow ubers to be used in lower tiers but at lower levels to stop them from being broken. This way there are far more options available, and it's easy enough to balance the metagame and stop any one thing from being broken. It should be noted that this suggestion has not been implemented in any tiers, and for very good reason: if suddenly there are three hundred viable pokemon and each has to be used at a specific level, things not only become extremely complicated but also extremely contrived. It gets very quickly to the point where the whole game just seems silly because of how contrived it is, and it stops being fun. So because of this, restricting pokemon to certain levels or movepools isn't done unless there's an immensely good reason for it. The only complex ban in an official tier that I know of has been Aldaron's Proposal (banning swift swim + drizzle), which was widely disputed and many people disliked it for being too complex.

 

[SuperShape]

It's true that many trainers rely on greninja, although I'm unconvinced that other pokemon might be able to do a similar job to it, although less well. Hydreigon, for example, is a decent special scarf to use on dark teams, and although it's slower it's got more power behind it.
Moreover, the giant movepool may be the problem with greninja, but just picking one move to ban on it won't solve any problems. People were complaining about greninja before it got gunk shot due to its Hydro Pump/Grass Knot/Ice Beam coverage completely destroying ground, for example. Banning gunk shot would, in fact, make this combination of three moves more common rather than less, thus making it more difficult for ground to deal with. What we should focus on specifically is what (if anything) makes greninja broken rather than what it is people complain about. There's always going to be people calling for a (non-mega) sableye ban because they don't know how to deal with it, this doesn't mean it's anywhere near broken. Rather, we should focus on what combinations of moves greninja can run, whether these combinations allow it to beat a number of teams with a extreme ease, and if there is such a set we should at that point use the information to determine what actions should be taken to deal with it.

The problem with complex bans in general is that we want the metagame to be as simple as possible. When someone's coming into the metagame, we want them to be able to look at the tier list and see what it is they're allowed to use, as this allows new people to come into the game easily and keeps the playerbase strong. Moreover, we want to be able to explain to people why certain things are banned (for example, talon was capable of taking out grass, fighting and bug teams with very little effort), and this not only helps new people become adjusted to the meta but also means we know why it's banned: If we can't explain why something's banned then why should it be banned? If there's no logical reason for that particular thing to be banned then why should it be banned? After all, we want a metagame without things being banned for no reason.

And finally, just because a complex ban would stop something from being broken doesn't mean it's fine we should use it. For example, there have been suggestions that we allow ubers to be used in lower tiers but at lower levels to stop them from being broken. This way there are far more options available, and it's easy enough to balance the metagame and stop any one thing from being broken. It should be noted that this suggestion has not been implemented in any tiers, and for very good reason: if suddenly there are three hundred viable pokemon and each has to be used at a specific level, things not only become extremely complicated but also extremely contrived. It gets very quickly to the point where the whole game just seems silly because of how contrived it is, and it stops being fun. So because of this, restricting pokemon to certain levels or movepools isn't done unless there's an immensely good reason for it. The only complex ban in an official tier that I know of has been Aldaron's Proposal (banning swift swim + drizzle), which was widely disputed and many people disliked it for being too complex.

Not many water/dark type pokes are capable of replacing Greninja.
It's best to nerf it than to just ban it to Ubers.

What moves would you ban? Or would you ban a certain combination of moves? Maybe we could make all greninjas not holding an iron ball illegal?

Once you open the floodgates to complex bans the issue becomes a lot more complicated and subject to bias IMO

Moves like shadow sneak, power up punch, and grass knot
Just so Greninja doesn't serve as a huge threat to other types.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Moves like shadow sneak, power up punch, and grass knot
Just so Greninja doesn't serve as a huge threat to other types.

Just because your a Greninja fanboy doesn't mean that people wouldn't want it Banned if it's deemed Broken. Stop flooding the Thread with weak Post

 

[Tyke]

Moves like shadow sneak, power up punch, and grass knot
Just so Greninja doesn't serve as a huge threat to other types.

:I

So shadow sneak and Power up punch makes greninja a threat, not low kick? Gunk shot?

Ofc that's just my opinion, and that is just yours. The problem with complex bans of a movepool is that there are a hundred other opinions like ours