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Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PISTOLERO
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Yeah, I agree w/ Haruno on pretty much everything he said (Reg-Donner and Lando-T).
Regular Groudon simply requires way too much support this generation to function as well as it did last gen, and even though it still handles Ekiller better, there's no reason to use it over P-Donner unless you want a very flimsy check for opposing P-Donners.
Lando-T just isn't seeing much use these days because of how offensively oriented and how fast-paced the metagame is and poor Landoge is having a hard time fitting in :< it gets destroyed by the Lati@s twins, P-Ogre, takes a shitton from M-Mence, dies to Xerneas, etc. it also isn't able to do much damage in return, and is very slow.
anyways I think Darkrai (ZoroarkForever ROFL) might be worth moving up, since sleep is even more devastating to all the offensive teams out there. being able to outspeed M-Mence and the Lati@s twins are also very nice, and it pressures offensive P-Donner, limiting its opportunities to set up a SD or RP.
I haven't used Mega Mence much so far, so I won't give my thoughts on it just yet (will need to do a bit more testing.)
Regular Groudon simply requires way too much support this generation to function as well as it did last gen, and even though it still handles Ekiller better, there's no reason to use it over P-Donner unless you want a very flimsy check for opposing P-Donners.
Lando-T just isn't seeing much use these days because of how offensively oriented and how fast-paced the metagame is and poor Landoge is having a hard time fitting in :< it gets destroyed by the Lati@s twins, P-Ogre, takes a shitton from M-Mence, dies to Xerneas, etc. it also isn't able to do much damage in return, and is very slow.
anyways I think Darkrai (ZoroarkForever ROFL) might be worth moving up, since sleep is even more devastating to all the offensive teams out there. being able to outspeed M-Mence and the Lati@s twins are also very nice, and it pressures offensive P-Donner, limiting its opportunities to set up a SD or RP.
I haven't used Mega Mence much so far, so I won't give my thoughts on it just yet (will need to do a bit more testing.)
Good calcs, but isn't Ice Beam still a viable coverage move on Mewtwo? That would be deterrent enough for Mega-Mence to consider setting up or challenging it 1v1 while unboosted as it's a guaranteed OHKO no matter how much bulk you run.
I also did a calc to see how much offensive variants take from Psystrike. So yes, you could still potentially set-up on Mewtwos not carrying Ice Beam. I just wanted to clarify that this was the trend.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega-Salamence: 192-227 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Mega Altaria being so close to Mega Diancie is laughable. The only mons it can wall are significantly worse in this meta anyways, and a DD set is inferior to Mega Mence's.
Mega Mence should be in S, one of the best setup sweepers in the game and can choose it's third move to bypass certain potential checks.
Mega Mence should be in S, one of the best setup sweepers in the game and can choose it's third move to bypass certain potential checks.
Kind of random, but since you're separating regular and Mega forms now, were you planning on ranking regular Blaziken somewhere? Not really sure where it would fit since I'm not really a big Ubers player myself (I remember reading a long while back that it would be somewhere in the B ranks if not for its Mega form, but that was long before ORAS), but I was just wondering if perhaps that was an oversight or if regular Blaziken is just that bad lol.
It was an oversight, I'd prolly slap it in the same rank as its Mega forme. It does die even faster than the Mega forme since it needs LO, but the obvious perk is that you don't use up your Mega slot and maintain similar power. Mega Blaze is generally preferred since it tanks priority better though.
Ok, I'll address the sticky mons whenever we discuss about C+ mons. I apologize for derailing the thread earlier. If I don't comment on mon, then I think that the rank should remain the same, or it's not in S/A+.
S
S
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Kyogre-Primal - I think that Kyogre-Primal is overvalued in S rank. It's probably better fit in A+. Defensive kyogre-primal sets are not outstanding or anything. It's usually outclassed by Groudon-primal lol. The fact that it doesn't get same utility as Groudon is disappointing. Combiend with the fact that Groudon and Latis hard counters the defensive sets. It's generally more of a liability to use defensive sets nowadays... Although, cm/twave sets are excellent at stallbreaking and busting through balance/offense teams, however that's what Kyogre-Primal is limited to. I feel like Kyogre-Primal simply cannot be justified to be in S with the lack of good defensive niche.
- Mewtwo - It's a strong special attacker. Nothing more. Down to A
- Mewtwo-Mega-Y - Stronger and better than Mewtwo. Down to A+
- Xerneas - Move up to S+. Xerneas definitely deserve the rank. The power is basically the same as Groudon-P. If anything, Groudon-P is incredibly easy to wear down and pave way to sweep with Xerneas. Xerneas didn't really lose anything during the shift. 1 extra shaky check isn't going to dent Xerneas' prowess lol. Right now, I think that people are seriously overestimating Groudon-P's power and underestimating other mons. But, we'll see as the metagame progress...
- Blaziken-Mega - Down to B/B- The competition for mega is ferocious now. It's incredibly hard to justify a slot for Blaziken when virtually all teams have excellent counters vs Blaziken in form of Salamence, Groudon, Giratina-o, and Ho-Oh... The prominence of Groudon-Primal makes it incredibly hard for Blaziken to sustain the sun support. It wasn't even A+ material in XY anyways.
- Dialga - Down to A- SpD set is completely outclassed by Groudon-Primal now. The best set are the offensive ones with Shuca/ballon/Life orb/adamant orb/whatever IMO. It still struggles to find slot as dragon nuke with competition from latis.
- Kyogre - Down to A- I don't know why everyone are predicting Kyogre's doom. Scarf Kyogre is still an excellent and very viable set. Kyogre is still much better than Kyogre-Primal for sweeping. Give it a bit of support and you'll get Scarf Kyogre sweep EASY.
- Landorus-Therian - Down to A- See Hack's post
- Palkia - Down to B+ basically relegated to yet other dragon nuke which has few specialized niches over latis... Lack of useful resists makes it a very overshadowed option to use.
- Ho-Oh - Up to A+ (see everyone else's posts)
- Latios - Up to S Destroyer of stall, balance, and offense. This thing is amazing lmfao. You're hard pressed to find reasons to NOT use one of latis twin.
- Latias - Up to S see above
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-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If it's a switch-in you will either miss out on Intimidate or the Mega Salamence's Defence buff and then you're working with this calc (it's actually the exact same with no Intimidate but the Mega Evolution's stats so I didn't include that). For the offensive set it's more acceptable to come in after something dies, but I feel like any defensive calcs should assume a switch-in, since that's among the main purposes of defensive Pokemon (not to mention that the defensive set is a lot more likely to come in repeatedly and thus already have Mega Evolved and lack Intimidate). Moreover, unless I've missed something, Stealth Rock is still standard battle conditions (you assumed it in basically every offensive calc where it wasn't redundant) and I don't see why you would exclude it from the defensive calcs.
I do agree that Mega Salamence belongs in S and is an incredible mon and all, but can we not give idealistic calcs to demonstrate points pls.
Hello, after reading everyone's posts it's clear that some changes in rank are unanimously supported, which is great!
Note: Some Pokemon such as Groudon were moved down but not as far as some people wanted them to, due to difference in opinion. Discussion about whether Gothitelle should be B or C or whatever is not the focus for now either.
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Meriting further discussion:
Scizor moving up to A
Latios moving up to S or S- (new rank created)
Latias moving up to S or S- (new rank created)
Xerneas moving up to S+
Landorus-Therian, Palkia & Blaziken leaving A Rank altogether
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My personal thoughts would be:
Scizor staying in A- seems fine to me, it gets blasted by a lot of the higher ranks and being able to poison them on the switchin is not the best answer, but being able to ruin Lugia and wall it with Roost is very nice. Pursuit trapping Lati@s is very nice however, but you won't be running Kyogre to dampen their Hidden Power Fires (which OHKO thanks to Soul Dew). Xerneas can't really viably run HP Fire anymore which is nice.
Latias and Latios should stay in A+ in my opinion, yes they are absolutely fantastic but Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Ghost are fantastic too, Giratina-Origin is a competent check to both, Xerneas still exists, as does Ho-Oh and Darkrai, and Yveltal can easily Sucker Punch both. Maybe they are worthy of S- Rank being created for them though :)
I disagree with Xerneas moving up to S+, I think Orch is nominating it because he's always been in love with Xerneas. Obtaining a new check, which has reduced the viability of its coverage moves, whilst Klefki isn't going anywhere, and Ho-Oh will be around a lot more thanks to Defog Lati@s. A new Dragon Dancer that Scarf Xern can't revenge kill isn't great either. Still the most solid S-Rank though by far, it gained and lost in the shift from XY to ORAS so it's fine where it is.
As much as it saddens me I think that all of Palkia, Landorus-Therian and Blaziken should fall to B+. Palkia isn't the premier Kyogre check anymore, is outsped by Lati@s etc. Landorus-Therian gets blasted to pieces by Overheat / Fire Blast / Lava Plume Primal Groudon, and gets Ice Beamed by Arceus-Ground, and loses against Extremekiller anyway. Blaziken's opportunity cost is huge, and it gets checked by Ho-Oh (no Stone Edge), Lati@s (no Knock Off), and almost countered by Mega Salamence. Not to mention that Primal Groudon resists Fire and has increased Defense.
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Changes
Darkrai: A to A+
Ho-Oh: A to A+
Kyogre-Primal: S to A+
Latias: A to A+
Latios: A to A+
Mewtwo: S to A+
Mewtwo-Mega-Y: S to A+
Arceus-Dark: B to A
Arceus-Ground: B+ to A
Dialga: A+ to A
Lugia: A- to A
Blaziken & Blaziken-Mega: A+ to A-
Deoxys-Attack: A to A-
Deoxys-Speed: A to A-
Diancie-Mega: B+ to A-
Landorus-Therian: A+ to A-
Mewtwo-Mega-X: A to A-
Palkia: A+ to A-
Groudon: A to B+
Kyogre: A+ to B+
Zekrom: A- to B+
Arceus-Electric: A- to B
Arceus-Poison: A- to B
Gothitelle: A- to B
Metagross-Mega: A- to B
Arceus-Water: A- to C+
Latias-Mega, Latios-Mega and Metagross moved to Chansey Rank.
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Darkrai: A to A+
Ho-Oh: A to A+
Kyogre-Primal: S to A+
Latias: A to A+
Latios: A to A+
Mewtwo: S to A+
Mewtwo-Mega-Y: S to A+
Arceus-Dark: B to A
Arceus-Ground: B+ to A
Dialga: A+ to A
Lugia: A- to A
Blaziken & Blaziken-Mega: A+ to A-
Deoxys-Attack: A to A-
Deoxys-Speed: A to A-
Diancie-Mega: B+ to A-
Landorus-Therian: A+ to A-
Mewtwo-Mega-X: A to A-
Palkia: A+ to A-
Groudon: A to B+
Kyogre: A+ to B+
Zekrom: A- to B+
Arceus-Electric: A- to B
Arceus-Poison: A- to B
Gothitelle: A- to B
Metagross-Mega: A- to B
Arceus-Water: A- to C+
Latias-Mega, Latios-Mega and Metagross moved to Chansey Rank.
________
Note: Some Pokemon such as Groudon were moved down but not as far as some people wanted them to, due to difference in opinion. Discussion about whether Gothitelle should be B or C or whatever is not the focus for now either.
________
Meriting further discussion:
Scizor moving up to A
Latios moving up to S or S- (new rank created)
Latias moving up to S or S- (new rank created)
Xerneas moving up to S+
Landorus-Therian, Palkia & Blaziken leaving A Rank altogether
________
My personal thoughts would be:
Scizor staying in A- seems fine to me, it gets blasted by a lot of the higher ranks and being able to poison them on the switchin is not the best answer, but being able to ruin Lugia and wall it with Roost is very nice. Pursuit trapping Lati@s is very nice however, but you won't be running Kyogre to dampen their Hidden Power Fires (which OHKO thanks to Soul Dew). Xerneas can't really viably run HP Fire anymore which is nice.
Latias and Latios should stay in A+ in my opinion, yes they are absolutely fantastic but Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Ghost are fantastic too, Giratina-Origin is a competent check to both, Xerneas still exists, as does Ho-Oh and Darkrai, and Yveltal can easily Sucker Punch both. Maybe they are worthy of S- Rank being created for them though :)
I disagree with Xerneas moving up to S+, I think Orch is nominating it because he's always been in love with Xerneas. Obtaining a new check, which has reduced the viability of its coverage moves, whilst Klefki isn't going anywhere, and Ho-Oh will be around a lot more thanks to Defog Lati@s. A new Dragon Dancer that Scarf Xern can't revenge kill isn't great either. Still the most solid S-Rank though by far, it gained and lost in the shift from XY to ORAS so it's fine where it is.
As much as it saddens me I think that all of Palkia, Landorus-Therian and Blaziken should fall to B+. Palkia isn't the premier Kyogre check anymore, is outsped by Lati@s etc. Landorus-Therian gets blasted to pieces by Overheat / Fire Blast / Lava Plume Primal Groudon, and gets Ice Beamed by Arceus-Ground, and loses against Extremekiller anyway. Blaziken's opportunity cost is huge, and it gets checked by Ho-Oh (no Stone Edge), Lati@s (no Knock Off), and almost countered by Mega Salamence. Not to mention that Primal Groudon resists Fire and has increased Defense.
Don't forget that you can viably run Refresh on Salamence, meaning that it is not that big a risk to switch in on Sacred Fire~
Palkia A- -> B- Mostly outclassed by PDon and Lati@s.
Kyurem-W B- -> A/A- Ice hits so many things it's not even funny anymore. It's also one of the better scarfers out there now.
Altaria-Mega B -> D Tell me again why I should waste my mega slot for this mediocre Pokemon.
Victini B -> C/C- Just not a very good Pokemon, especially now that we have PDon as an offensive Xerneas check.
Ditto C -> Chansey After the MRay ban you should never use Ditto, just like in XY.
Kyurem-W B- -> A/A- Ice hits so many things it's not even funny anymore. It's also one of the better scarfers out there now.
Altaria-Mega B -> D Tell me again why I should waste my mega slot for this mediocre Pokemon.
Victini B -> C/C- Just not a very good Pokemon, especially now that we have PDon as an offensive Xerneas check.
Ditto C -> Chansey After the MRay ban you should never use Ditto, just like in XY.
I think you are grossly overstating this- Chansey rank is for joke mons that for some reason are being and while I do agree that Ditto isn't exactly /good/ it's definitely viable for balanced teams in desperate need of a catch-all revenge killer. C+ seems fair enough for this mon, though we aren't talking these ranks seriously before we finish S and A.
In response to Orch: you are grossly overestimating scarf Kyogre's capabilities and you contradict yourself by claiming Latis are extremely splashable and then saying scarf Ogre has a chance at sweeping late game. If most teams have pDon and in addition have Latios/Latias then how is it easy to clean up late game? It's the basic definition of a mon that needs massive support to function so somewhere in B rank it goes.
In response to S- rank created: I don't see why not. Atm I feel Latis are stuck a bit higher up than A+ due to their versatility and ease to slap on a build. Should S- rank be created Gengar could possibly go there to differentiate it a bit from Salamence, which I for now hold higher.
PISTOLERO said:
Scizor moving up to A makes sense to me. Being able to check Xerneas, Gengar, and Lati@s in one mon is huge and it can potentially check EKiller as well with Superpower or Lugia with Toxic and Roost. You can say HP Fire but the thing is many of those Pokemon do not necessarily have the moveslot to spare for it except for Gengar. Focus Blast is compulsory on Xerneas now and running HP Fire + Focus Blast is a terrible idea due to redundancy + getting walled hard by Ho-Oh, and Lati@s will usually want to spend their other 2 moveslots on CM/Roost/Defog/Healing Wish | Memento which makes fitting HP Fire difficult. So yeah Scizor checks a lot of the top threats and A is a fine place for it.
Lati@s imo should stay in A+ rank, they're strong but still have some flaws. Pursuit weakness is annoying (everything that Pursuit traps Gengar beats them too), mediocre Defense means they are easily slain by priority/faster physical attackers like Mence post Mega, and they struggle somewhat to take down bulky Steel-types due to lack of strong coverage moves for dealing with them + the need to sacrifice one of Defog/Healing Wish/Memento/Roost/Calm Mind for one.
Xerneas should also stay in S rank. It's rather difficult to justify it for S+ when basically every team has a solid check for it now in the form of Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon forces it to run Focus Blast which limits its options for dealing with old checks such as Scizor, Klefki, and Aegislash (all of which are more useful this metagame since Latis are back) since HP Fire/Sub aren't that viable anymore, making it easier to check overall. Ho-Oh being a lot better with buffed hazard removal options also really sucks for it. Only Primal Groudon really deserves S+ imo.
Lando-T should go to B. It's only real niche over Primal Groudon is beating RP Don sets w/o Fire attacks, otherwise PDon and even regular Groudon are both way better than it. Loses to a lot of the new stuff. I agree with Sweep on this one.
Blaziken should stay in A- rank. It's still super strong and I feel like its fine as long as you run Stone Edge which eliminates Ho-Oh as a check + gives you a way to break Mega Salamence (Stone Edge 2HKOes after Stealth Rock through Intimidate if you catch it on the switch). Latias is a shaky check at best since Flare Blitz/HJK 2HKO after SR (Latios is straight 2HKOed). It does have more checks but its not like they are flawless switch-ins either, Blaziken isn't exactly weak. SD is still viable with Wobb support as well.
I think Palkia should stay in A- rank for now, but I wouldn't mind terribly if it goes to B+. It has a couple big perks over Lati@s which are 1) not being Ghost/Darkceus bait 2) not weak to Pursuit and 3) having STAB Hydro Pump/Fire Blast to actually deal with Steel-types on its own. That being said I feel like the only viable set in ORAS is Lust/Haban offensive sets, defensive sets are outclassed by Primal Groudon while Specs is rather risky to use since a simple PDon + Xerneas core resists your whole moveset, and giving either of these mons a free turn is a terrible idea.
Aside from that I think A-rank is covered for now.
I think the S in Rank Inflation scenario is meant to stand for "Star" or "Super(eme)", hence why they place it over A
Are the absences of regular Scizor and Mega Tyranitar intentional?
I would assume that it should be Mega Lucario, considering that's not on the list at all and that's the only reason any kind of Luke would be used in Ubers.
..... and its not even bad because it checks two pretty dangerous fairies(diancie and Xerneas), sits at decent speed tier and can go mixed to beat some things it normally can't (i've tried special based Mluke with Focus Blast to get past groudons and other stuff). It's obviously far from the best, but it's not as bad as you say.
Why is Lucario B rank? Or rather why isn't Mega Lucario on the list instead? o.o
From what I understand, D rank is for Uber pokemon that are completely obsolete, while Chansey rank is for the non-Uber once. So unless Deo-N goes down to OU, it should stay in D rank.
nah, chansey rank is for joke-mons that are bad for a very obvious reason. they can be uber and non uber.
I wasn't trying to say Mega Luke was bad (because I really don't think that), I was saying regular Luke really doesnt have much use in Ubers. Megas are being ranked separately from base forms now, and I don't see non-Mega Luke having much of a role at all.
Just a small suggestion, but I would like to move Normal Deoxys down to OU Mega Scizor down to B+/B. With Primal Groudon being on almost every team, Mega Scizor is now more easily checked, and faces even more competition as a defogger from Lati@s and Giratina Origin Forme. It still serves as a good check to Xerneas, so I don't want to move it completely down, but I think that B+/B is a good spot for it.
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