Getting to 1500 is not that difficult; 1500 is about mid-ladder. Also, bringing Beedrill to A+ is completely disregarding its flaws, such as its horrible bulk, it weakness to priority, needing Protect to circumvent its low speed before Mega Evolving, and its difficulty with Steel-types (even with Drill Run). I do not see Mega Beedrill to be on par with other A+ Rank Pokemon, such as Mega Gallade / Gardevoir, Landorus-T, Latias, Bisharp, and Talonflame, all of which are much more consistent than Beedrill, and do not require as much as support.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
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Getting to 1500 is not that difficult; 1500 is about mid-ladder. Also, bringing Beedrill to A+ is completely disregarding its flaws, such as its horrible bulk, it weakness to priority, needing Protect to circumvent its low speed before Mega Evolving, and its difficulty with Steel-types (even with Drill Run). I do not see Mega Beedrill to be on par with other A+ Rank Pokemon, such as Mega Gallade / Gardevoir, Landorus-T, Latias, Bisharp, and Talonflame, all of which are much more consistent than Beedrill, and do not require as much as support.
No, you're missing the point. The point of a discussion is to air differing views in order to weigh competing arguments, not to weigh the amount of support given to them. Smogon does not care 'what the majority thinks', and the very reason why you see so many posters here being told to 'go lurk' is because nobody gives a crap what you think or what you have to say unless you're able to back it up. The majority's opinion, here, does not matter in the slightest.
Making polls takes away the point of this thread: discussion. In addition, these types of polls don't accurately reflect the consensus of players. They don't take experience and other intangible factors into account.
Hey this is rather off topic from A+ and S Ranks, but what do you guys think about giving Pangoro a rank?
With the crazy buffs this panda got to its movepool via the ORAS tutors, Pangoro has actually become a really interesting Pokemon. It has a really neat STAB combination with Dark / Fighting, and it has some strong coverage moves for STABs, with either Drain Punch or Superpower for a strong Fighting STAB move, with the former giving recovery which is neat, as well as STAB Knock Off, which, as Bisharp has taught us, is ridiculously good. This is also coming off of a base 124 Attack, and with CB or LO in tow, this thing is a tough to switch into wallbreaker that hits hard. It also has Gunk Shot, which hits Fairy-types like Azumarill extremely hard, and using it is another really nice bonus to the panda. It also has decently passable bulk, which helps it quite a bit to take a few hits here and there. Scrappy is also a neat ability which allows Pangoro to make use of something like Superpower to basically crush Mega Sableye, which as we all know is an incredible Pokemon right now. Another really cool aspect of Pangoro is Parting Shot. This allows Pangoro to weaken an opponent and then switch to something else, which is a super good move that can give you a lot of momentum. This is also decently useful with setup sweepers like AgliGross and the like, and Pangoro can most definitely go toe-to-toe with anything that is a potential threat to Parting Shot. I don't think this Pokemon will be anything really game changing, but I think it is in fact viable to a degree, and could maybe be C- or C Rank for a start.
With the crazy buffs this panda got to its movepool via the ORAS tutors, Pangoro has actually become a really interesting Pokemon. It has a really neat STAB combination with Dark / Fighting, and it has some strong coverage moves for STABs, with either Drain Punch or Superpower for a strong Fighting STAB move, with the former giving recovery which is neat, as well as STAB Knock Off, which, as Bisharp has taught us, is ridiculously good. This is also coming off of a base 124 Attack, and with CB or LO in tow, this thing is a tough to switch into wallbreaker that hits hard. It also has Gunk Shot, which hits Fairy-types like Azumarill extremely hard, and using it is another really nice bonus to the panda. It also has decently passable bulk, which helps it quite a bit to take a few hits here and there. Scrappy is also a neat ability which allows Pangoro to make use of something like Superpower to basically crush Mega Sableye, which as we all know is an incredible Pokemon right now. Another really cool aspect of Pangoro is Parting Shot. This allows Pangoro to weaken an opponent and then switch to something else, which is a super good move that can give you a lot of momentum. This is also decently useful with setup sweepers like AgliGross and the like, and Pangoro can most definitely go toe-to-toe with anything that is a potential threat to Parting Shot. I don't think this Pokemon will be anything really game changing, but I think it is in fact viable to a degree, and could maybe be C- or C Rank for a start.
Im supporting Landorus Therian for S rank, but I think some people are supporting it without proper reasoning.
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Just by looking at the description you can see lando t fits the bill of S rank. What makes landorus T so damn amazing is its ability to blanket check a Huge portion of the metagame as well as its ability to constantly grant your team momentum in most cases. Landorus-Therian's scarf set is able to force out literally 50% of the S and A ranks. Landorus is forcing out Zard x, greninja, latios (unless its full health and willing to take a u-turn to drop a draco), mega gallade (generally) bisharp, zard y, mega gardevoir, heatran, latias, mega metagross, pinsir, talonflame, thundurus, diancie, dragonite (not always), heracross, mega loppuny (generally), mega manectric, medicham, terrakion, jirachi, magnezone, mega sceptile and both tyranitar forms. That is literally 25/50 pokemon that are usually (I am not saying always calm down) forced out in fear of a scarf set, and then lando t can simply u-turn to gain momentum. As well as being a momentum machine, lando has access to knock off to cripple some of its best switch-ins, as well as stone edge to hit birds, explosion as a last-minute nuke and its extremely spammable stab once all the immunities and resistances are gone. On top of lando's scarf set, it has a double dance set, defensive rocks set and an offensive rocks set. Double dance is extremely powerful and threatening, and is super unprepared for, the defensive rocks set is a great blanket check to a huge portion of the physical metagame and can lay rocks quite eaily while the offensive rocks set is a great rock layer that can break walls down as well as lure in some specific pokemon and destroy them with explosion. Lando is the definition of low risk high reward, you almost lose nothing by slapping it into your team, as seen with lando's ridiculous usage in both tours and ladder (lol). It does have a few flaws such as the fact that it can be worn down quickly, but landorus therians countless pros definitely patch up its insignificant flaws.
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Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Just by looking at the description you can see lando t fits the bill of S rank. What makes landorus T so damn amazing is its ability to blanket check a Huge portion of the metagame as well as its ability to constantly grant your team momentum in most cases. Landorus-Therian's scarf set is able to force out literally 50% of the S and A ranks. Landorus is forcing out Zard x, greninja, latios (unless its full health and willing to take a u-turn to drop a draco), mega gallade (generally) bisharp, zard y, mega gardevoir, heatran, latias, mega metagross, pinsir, talonflame, thundurus, diancie, dragonite (not always), heracross, mega loppuny (generally), mega manectric, medicham, terrakion, jirachi, magnezone, mega sceptile and both tyranitar forms. That is literally 25/50 pokemon that are usually (I am not saying always calm down) forced out in fear of a scarf set, and then lando t can simply u-turn to gain momentum. As well as being a momentum machine, lando has access to knock off to cripple some of its best switch-ins, as well as stone edge to hit birds, explosion as a last-minute nuke and its extremely spammable stab once all the immunities and resistances are gone. On top of lando's scarf set, it has a double dance set, defensive rocks set and an offensive rocks set. Double dance is extremely powerful and threatening, and is super unprepared for, the defensive rocks set is a great blanket check to a huge portion of the physical metagame and can lay rocks quite eaily while the offensive rocks set is a great rock layer that can break walls down as well as lure in some specific pokemon and destroy them with explosion. Lando is the definition of low risk high reward, you almost lose nothing by slapping it into your team, as seen with lando's ridiculous usage in both tours and ladder (lol). It does have a few flaws such as the fact that it can be worn down quickly, but landorus therians countless pros definitely patch up its insignificant flaws.
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Landorus T makes me remember how Gliscor was Ou Premium Wall a few gens back. Land T is not only a great physical wall but a Strong Physical Attacker - He totally deserves S rank.
Keldeo -> A/A-I seriously don't understand why keldeo is S rank.. fan service? It's not versitile, it's not THAT fast without scarf, it has no real niche that seperates it from other fast hard hitting special attacks like latios and greninja, it's just overall not that amazing.. especially in a meta where magnezone, latios, talonflame, and rotom running around.. as well as dragalge who counters him and pretty much kills something whether it's keldeo or a switch in.. he can't afford to lock into a move with choice items. He's not terrible but he's outclassed and doesn't do too much; utility or countering things wise.
Azumaril is rediculous IMHO.. it can run a rediculous amount of sets from AV, CB, rare belly drum, it's easy to slap on a team and nothing really counters with aqua jet, superpower, knock off, and play rough coverage.. azumaril revenge kills so much of the metagame and can wall break pretty much everything.
This is possibly the most controversal one yet.. while he caused metacham to fall, gallade isn't too much better either. He's not that great at sweeping with scarfers everywhere, he's hard walled by sableye and can't particularly club bro to death with anything even if you taunt.. talonflame still murders him, and shadow sneak, his only priority, is just weak.. weaker than aegislash's was without STAB. He's versitile yes, but that's the only reason I see him A rank is versitility cause speed tiers are pretty much nonexsistant in today's meta. Base 165 Atk without an items isn't that impressive either..
Pretty much on the same page as everybody else.. he's almost overcentralizing forcing some pokemon to run unnessecary ice coverage and is slapped on nearly every team out there. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said already.
I seriously don't understand why keldeo is S rank.. fan service? It's not versitile, it's not THAT fast without scarf, it has no real niche that seperates it from other fast hard hitting special attacks like latios and greninja, it's just overall not that amazing.. especially in a meta where magnezone, latios, talonflame, and rotom running around.. as well as dragalge who counters him and pretty much kills something whether it's keldeo or a switch in.. he can't afford to lock into a move with choice items. He's not terrible but he's outclassed and doesn't do too much; utility or countering things wise.
Azumarill -> S
Azumaril is rediculous IMHO.. it can run a rediculous amount of sets from AV, CB, rare belly drum, it's easy to slap on a team and nothing really counters with aqua jet, superpower, knock off, and play rough coverage.. azumaril revenge kills so much of the metagame and can wall break pretty much everything.
Gallade (Mega) -> A-
This is possibly the most controversal one yet.. while he caused metacham to fall, gallade isn't too much better either. He's not that great at sweeping with scarfers everywhere, he's hard walled by sableye and can't particularly club bro to death with anything even if you taunt.. talonflame still murders him, and shadow sneak, his only priority, is just weak.. weaker than aegislash's was without STAB. He's versitile yes, but that's the only reason I see him A rank is versitility cause speed tiers are pretty much nonexsistant in today's meta. Base 165 Atk without an items isn't that impressive either..
Landorus-T -> S
Pretty much on the same page as everybody else.. he's almost overcentralizing forcing some pokemon to run unnessecary ice coverage and is slapped on nearly every team out there. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said already.
Attachments
Eh Idk about M-Gallade man. That thing is so disgusting at +2 and if M-Sableye and to a lesser extent Unaware Clefable is out of the picture that's more than likely gg for Stall. Has a really good matchup against Balanced and has enough speed to threaten offense as well. Keldeo and Azumarill is fine in A+ as well as they can be extremely effective.
I seriously don't understand why keldeo is S rank.. fan service? It's not versitile, it's not THAT fast without scarf, it has no real niche that seperates it from other fast hard hitting special attacks like latios and greninja, it's just overall not that amazing.. especially in a meta where magnezone, latios, talonflame, and rotom running around.. as well as dragalge who counters him and pretty much kills something whether it's keldeo or a switch in.. he can't afford to lock into a move with choice items. He's not terrible but he's outclassed and doesn't do too much; utility or countering things wise.
Azumarill -> S
Azumaril is rediculous IMHO.. it can run a rediculous amount of sets from AV, CB, rare belly drum, it's easy to slap on a team and nothing really counters with aqua jet, superpower, knock off, and play rough coverage.. azumaril revenge kills so much of the metagame and can wall break pretty much everything.
Gallade (Mega) -> A-
This is possibly the most controversal one yet.. while he caused metacham to fall, gallade isn't too much better either. He's not that great at sweeping with scarfers everywhere, he's hard walled by sableye and can't particularly club bro to death with anything even if you taunt.. talonflame still murders him, and shadow sneak, his only priority, is just weak.. weaker than aegislash's was without STAB. He's versitile yes, but that's the only reason I see him A rank is versitility cause speed tiers are pretty much nonexsistant in today's meta. Base 165 Atk without an items isn't that impressive either..
Landorus-T -> S
Pretty much on the same page as everybody else.. he's almost overcentralizing forcing some pokemon to run unnessecary ice coverage and is slapped on nearly every team out there. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said already.
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty much beats Bro unless Bro gets a lucky scald burn right off the bat. It can also beat M-Sableye if running Skill Swap (which I'm finding to be increasingly popular due to also providing a counter measure against M-Altaria).
We're supposed to be discussing A+ or S right now, but I definitely second this. While Pangoro is still not the easiest Pokemon in the game to bring in, bring him in and he'll almost always do something of note. Between his coverage and parting shot, nothing in OU likes to switch in against him.
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Mega Metagross for S
This is the one change that absolutely needs to happen. The amount of fucks I give about Zard X dropping to A+ pales in comparison to the ones I give for Gross to go to S (and i really want Zard X to drop). I can say, with absolute certainty, that Metagross will never be dead wight in a match, unless somehow hes facing skarm / bro / cress / alomomomola / mandi / quag, which doesnt exist. The reason why I listed those mons in particular is because thats his list of counters. And even then, Skarm, Bro, and Quag all lose to Hammer Arm / Grass Knot respectively, which are both very viable options. That literally leaves fish, mandibuzz, and Cress, which are only found on stall and can be pressured by teammates quite easily due to their extreme passiveness.
He has great power thanks to tough claws and a base 145 attack stat, but thats not why hes S material. Hes S material because he has bulk. and speed. and a great typing. he reliably checks every relevant fairy type in the tier bar CB azu, and takes on the latis, fighters, and even opposing steel types. his amazing 80 / 150 / 110 bulk gives him ample switch in opportunities and a resistance to stealth rock prevents him from being worn down from hazards. he forces out everything i mentioned above, and hits anything thats not one of the counters i listed insanely hard with whatever coverage move he chooses. however, what makes megagross such a threat is that on top of his offensive and defensive prowess is that he has an amazing speed tier. base 110 speed is nothing to scoff at. it outpaces the muskedeers, garchomp, and every base 100 and slower, which is a huge portion of the meta. This prevents him from being revenge killed as easily as most mons.
most of the time, heavy hitters will kill something, but be forced out by something faster the next turn. a great example of this is mega gardevoir. garde hits insanely hard and has decent special bulk, but once she kills something, roughly a third to a half of the meta can force her out or kill her should she choose to stay in because she lacks the speed to keep up. another example from the opposite side of the spectrum would be choice scarf landorus t. landorus t has the power to kill things. but then hes rked or set up on a ground immunity, as lando has no choice but to switch out. not the greatest example, but the point is that metagross is not easily revenge killed. few mons naturally outspeed him, and of those on choice band talonflame can kill him from full health. greninja, scarf lando t, and other faster things cannot bring metagross down in one hit, meaning if he isnt critted when he stays in, you have now lost your [insert x mon here]. And I havent even mentioned how Rock Polish completely shits on any offensive team that has lost their bisharp and scarf lando t.
now lets take a look at the S rank standards:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Metagross fits this bill perfectly in every way. Lets break it down.
I really dont see how anyone can argue against metagross for S. sure hes a mega but hes the best fucking mega in OU right now (fuck u zard fanboys .-.). Metagross is a defining force in this meta and if you dont have an answer to him then he will mash you into oblivion (get it? mash? meteor mash? hehe bwoi). hes easily on par with the other current s ranks and should be ranked as such.
Mega Metagross for S.
This is the one change that absolutely needs to happen. The amount of fucks I give about Zard X dropping to A+ pales in comparison to the ones I give for Gross to go to S (and i really want Zard X to drop). I can say, with absolute certainty, that Metagross will never be dead wight in a match, unless somehow hes facing skarm / bro / cress / alomomomola / mandi / quag, which doesnt exist. The reason why I listed those mons in particular is because thats his list of counters. And even then, Skarm, Bro, and Quag all lose to Hammer Arm / Grass Knot respectively, which are both very viable options. That literally leaves fish, mandibuzz, and Cress, which are only found on stall and can be pressured by teammates quite easily due to their extreme passiveness.
He has great power thanks to tough claws and a base 145 attack stat, but thats not why hes S material. Hes S material because he has bulk. and speed. and a great typing. he reliably checks every relevant fairy type in the tier bar CB azu, and takes on the latis, fighters, and even opposing steel types. his amazing 80 / 150 / 110 bulk gives him ample switch in opportunities and a resistance to stealth rock prevents him from being worn down from hazards. he forces out everything i mentioned above, and hits anything thats not one of the counters i listed insanely hard with whatever coverage move he chooses. however, what makes megagross such a threat is that on top of his offensive and defensive prowess is that he has an amazing speed tier. base 110 speed is nothing to scoff at. it outpaces the muskedeers, garchomp, and every base 100 and slower, which is a huge portion of the meta. This prevents him from being revenge killed as easily as most mons.
most of the time, heavy hitters will kill something, but be forced out by something faster the next turn. a great example of this is mega gardevoir. garde hits insanely hard and has decent special bulk, but once she kills something, roughly a third to a half of the meta can force her out or kill her should she choose to stay in because she lacks the speed to keep up. another example from the opposite side of the spectrum would be choice scarf landorus t. landorus t has the power to kill things. but then hes rked or set up on a ground immunity, as lando has no choice but to switch out. not the greatest example, but the point is that metagross is not easily revenge killed. few mons naturally outspeed him, and of those on choice band talonflame can kill him from full health. greninja, scarf lando t, and other faster things cannot bring metagross down in one hit, meaning if he isnt critted when he stays in, you have now lost your [insert x mon here]. And I havent even mentioned how Rock Polish completely shits on any offensive team that has lost their bisharp and scarf lando t.
now lets take a look at the S rank standards:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Metagross fits this bill perfectly in every way. Lets break it down.
I can say with absolute certainty that metagross is amazing in the OU metagame through both personal experience and watching top players use him.
Metagross hits insanely hard and acts as a very formidable wallbreaker that doesnt die in one hit. He performs this role extremely well. He also acts as a late game cleaner if hes the rock polish set. think greninja that doesnt give a fuck about priority (bisharp can fuck himself cuz keld is an amazing partner to gross), can tank hits, and doesnt care about scarfers. thats megagross. If thats not performing a role extremely well then i dont know what is.
I dont see any high risk in using megaross unless your name is CBB and your making plays ballsier than a rock climber without a rope. And even then he has extremely high reward.
the only "flaw" of megagross is his 4MSS. But the thing is that gross has teammates for that. similar to ninja in a way. are slowbro, alomomola, and skarmory an issue for you? specs magnezone says high. Greninja? Bisharp? Keldeo would like to have a word. CB talonflame? scarf lando t? Rotom w is there for ya. do u want spikes support? chesnaught and ninja got ur back. and the high reward? the bodies of the fainted pokemon laying at your opponents' feet.
I really dont see how anyone can argue against metagross for S. sure hes a mega but hes the best fucking mega in OU right now (fuck u zard fanboys .-.). Metagross is a defining force in this meta and if you dont have an answer to him then he will mash you into oblivion (get it? mash? meteor mash? hehe bwoi). hes easily on par with the other current s ranks and should be ranked as such.
Mega Metagross for S.
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Supporting Mega Metagross for S because it's blue (which is the best color), and only blue things are allowed in S. On a related note, I propose S Rank be renamed to Blue Rank until some non-Blue plebeian works their way up there.
To legitimize this post, I just want to say that being the most common common/splashable Pokemon in the meta does not automatically grant Blue Rank status. Rotom-W was easily the most common mon in early XY but never got past A+ (or A, can't remember), since it was easily worn down and almost always ended up dying. Landorus-T has similar longevity issues, especially when running Scarf, and some sets have trouble with certain playstyles (like said Scarf set being borderline useless against Stall).
To legitimize this post, I just want to say that being the most common common/splashable Pokemon in the meta does not automatically grant Blue Rank status. Rotom-W was easily the most common mon in early XY but never got past A+ (or A, can't remember), since it was easily worn down and almost always ended up dying. Landorus-T has similar longevity issues, especially when running Scarf, and some sets have trouble with certain playstyles (like said Scarf set being borderline useless against Stall).
I'd like to give my two cents on Lando for what it's worth. I always like Lando-I more than Landorus-T, but the meta has become a lot more beneficial to Lando-T. Now that Salamence which turned it's scarf set into setup bait is gone, it's hard to find a reason for it to not to move to S-rank in my opinion.
First off, I'll make a bold claim by saying it's likely the best revenge killer in this tier. Other scarfers like Keldeo or Garchomp don't compare because they don't have U-turn to gain momentum (which is actually gives it a use against stall in Volt-Turn cores). It's also a better scarfer than Mag because U-turn doesn't get blocked by ground types like Volt Switch and it's also way faster so it can revenge Sceptile, Manectric and Greninja. Before someone mentions Talonflame, I'd like to say I do like Talonflame, but it has so little staying power. It's weak to rocks, has poor defenses and gets worn down by recoil. Landorus can come in to revenge kill all throughout the match. Not to mention, it's weak, especially if it's without Choice Band. Most importantly though, Landorus put itself in a different league than other revenge killer by having Intimidate which allows it to actually check pokemon and not just knock them out at low HP.
Also, I want to mention that Landorus-T can be added nearly to every team. Balance has almost no reason to run it because Landorus can revenge/check all those fast pokemon like Diancie and setup sweepers like Charizard, Altaria, and Mega Gyarados (which has gotten better in ORAS). The defensive set may be inferior nowadays, but is also nice because it can set up rocks on so many thing, and switch into hard physcial hitters. Offense loves having it to revenge Greninja as well. Scarfers like Garchomp can't do this because it has to lock itself into a Dragon move, which can be abused with all the fairies like Diancie and Altaria now being viable. Landorus is also good on rain. Yeah, rain, since it checks all the ever so common physical priority users like Talonflame.
I used to like Lando-I for its usefulness against stall and balance, but I realized that Landorus-T handles it only marginally worse. The standard sets are weak against defensive mons, but it still has Knock Off to cripple them. Double Dance, however, can be really useful because very few things avoid the 2HKO after a Swords Dance.
It's not actually very versatile despite having a lot of options because it usually has the same checks. Anyway, the point I'm making is that Landorus is the best revenge killer or at least the most easily used one, has some other nice options too, and it's good enough for S.
First off, I'll make a bold claim by saying it's likely the best revenge killer in this tier. Other scarfers like Keldeo or Garchomp don't compare because they don't have U-turn to gain momentum (which is actually gives it a use against stall in Volt-Turn cores). It's also a better scarfer than Mag because U-turn doesn't get blocked by ground types like Volt Switch and it's also way faster so it can revenge Sceptile, Manectric and Greninja. Before someone mentions Talonflame, I'd like to say I do like Talonflame, but it has so little staying power. It's weak to rocks, has poor defenses and gets worn down by recoil. Landorus can come in to revenge kill all throughout the match. Not to mention, it's weak, especially if it's without Choice Band. Most importantly though, Landorus put itself in a different league than other revenge killer by having Intimidate which allows it to actually check pokemon and not just knock them out at low HP.
Also, I want to mention that Landorus-T can be added nearly to every team. Balance has almost no reason to run it because Landorus can revenge/check all those fast pokemon like Diancie and setup sweepers like Charizard, Altaria, and Mega Gyarados (which has gotten better in ORAS). The defensive set may be inferior nowadays, but is also nice because it can set up rocks on so many thing, and switch into hard physcial hitters. Offense loves having it to revenge Greninja as well. Scarfers like Garchomp can't do this because it has to lock itself into a Dragon move, which can be abused with all the fairies like Diancie and Altaria now being viable. Landorus is also good on rain. Yeah, rain, since it checks all the ever so common physical priority users like Talonflame.
I used to like Lando-I for its usefulness against stall and balance, but I realized that Landorus-T handles it only marginally worse. The standard sets are weak against defensive mons, but it still has Knock Off to cripple them. Double Dance, however, can be really useful because very few things avoid the 2HKO after a Swords Dance.
It's not actually very versatile despite having a lot of options because it usually has the same checks. Anyway, the point I'm making is that Landorus is the best revenge killer or at least the most easily used one, has some other nice options too, and it's good enough for S.
I just realized that was you Smog Frog....
Anyway, the way of Gross moving up is easy nough. Sure he was a nice check to Mega Mence back when he was around, but now without that ass out of here he can shine as one of the best megas within the tier. His coverage, while frankly can piss you off at times, is not the worst thing imaginable with very viable move options to abuse that really, some i thought were nitially out of left field (of all the moves this guy would be capable of using, i didnt think id love hammer arm so much...) and take advatage of his counters (like Skarm without Counter) for which he cant just muscle past with his STABs. The fact he has some amazing bulk is just beautiful, allowing him to take hits as stated in Scarf Lando EQ and Gren D-Pulse.
His flaws of 4mss and very common weaknesses may be enough to hold him back, but just how he matches up to the other popular megas is a fun thing to see what with him obliterating Altaria and being able to muscle past some of the older megas while not doing much to mega slow without gknot and mega sable. So S rank seems more than well nough.
Course me arguing for something to move up lately has resulted in the opposite for a good while but i'll try. Mega Gross for S!
Regarding Gallade for S rank, I'd say A+ if only because of its shortcomings with parts of stall like its matchup vs Sableye. It's still flat out savagery at +2 and is motherfucking amazing.
Keldeo A+, no lower. Specs Secret Sword and Hydro Pump rip and tear holes in so much crap.
Support Megagross for S, this thing is flat out disgusting and is so damn good, pretty much everything Clone said, yadadadadadada
No opinion on Lando-T or the rest of the stuff in S and A+
Keldeo A+, no lower. Specs Secret Sword and Hydro Pump rip and tear holes in so much crap.
Support Megagross for S, this thing is flat out disgusting and is so damn good, pretty much everything Clone said, yadadadadadada
No opinion on Lando-T or the rest of the stuff in S and A+
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It's true that Rotom-W is a very solid mon and a staple on many teams. However, his usage stats and niches on teams aren't the only factors in determining his viability. Both Lati twins easily switch in on any Rotom, even the rare specs hp ice variants. Mega Sceptile and Sableye destroy our detergent-filled friend, and Sceptile's mere presence makes Rotom uncertain about volt switch scouting, lest he give Sceptile a free lightning rod boost. In addition, Rotom gets 2HKO'd by Lopunny HJK and Gallade's CC after SR or with any boosting, meaning he's not the safest switch in. Not to mention that aches naught and Ferrothron make Rotom's life hard as well....overall I'm not arguing that Rotom though drop, but rather that he is perfectly placed as he is.
Don't worry. The members of of the Viability council like alexwolf care about other opinions. Just not yours.
OK time to get serious *cracks knuckles*
I would like to join many others in the motion that Mega Gallade should be moved to S. I feel like game freak could not have buffed him better, as not only is he an offensive monster, but bulky for such an offensive mon. 95 defense means a bulky up set is viable, and it should be noted that +1 adamant knock off OHKO's Slowbro, while drain punch sustains Gallade and keeps him healthy. Gallade's SD set is nightmare fuel for a weakened team, and very easily cleans up late game with little to no support required aside from Stealth Rocks and a Talonflame counter chillin in the back. Mega Gallade is not unstoppable, not by a long shot, but that does his checks and counters don't hinder his performance to any painful extent. Overall his offensive capabilities and versatility in the post-Mega Salamence meta make him S tier material in my book.
I would like to join many others in the motion that Mega Gallade should be moved to S. I feel like game freak could not have buffed him better, as not only is he an offensive monster, but bulky for such an offensive mon. 95 defense means a bulky up set is viable, and it should be noted that +1 adamant knock off OHKO's Slowbro, while drain punch sustains Gallade and keeps him healthy. Gallade's SD set is nightmare fuel for a weakened team, and very easily cleans up late game with little to no support required aside from Stealth Rocks and a Talonflame counter chillin in the back. Mega Gallade is not unstoppable, not by a long shot, but that does his checks and counters don't hinder his performance to any painful extent. Overall his offensive capabilities and versatility in the post-Mega Salamence meta make him S tier material in my book.
I'm sure most people know this. The bigger question is whether the large viability of Mega Slowbro and Sableye hinder its performance.
I wouldn't know because I rarely use Mega Gallade, but I think there are more important factors to its viability other than this.
Ok I gave Slowbro and Gallade ether Mega stats for this calc
(204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 218, 220, 222, 224, 228, 230, 232, 234, 236, 240)
Factor in the fact that most Mega Slowbro do not enjoy having to run defensive EVs, much preferring the cm offensive or specially defensive generally, and we've found ourselves a poke that makes Slowbro invest in defense or fear a 2HKO. But smart Megallade users will not stay in on a Mega Slowbro, or Sableye. I doubt 2 Pokemon can keep a Pokemon out of a tier placement anyway. You said it yourself, you don't use Mega Gallade that much, and I feel a stronger rebuttal is in order.
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowbro: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 218, 220, 222, 224, 228, 230, 232, 234, 236, 240)
Factor in the fact that most Mega Slowbro do not enjoy having to run defensive EVs, much preferring the cm offensive or specially defensive generally, and we've found ourselves a poke that makes Slowbro invest in defense or fear a 2HKO. But smart Megallade users will not stay in on a Mega Slowbro, or Sableye. I doubt 2 Pokemon can keep a Pokemon out of a tier placement anyway. You said it yourself, you don't use Mega Gallade that much, and I feel a stronger rebuttal is in order.
Well anyways since S-A+ rank discussion is demented after the meta has been out for almost 3 months, im gonna actually not talk about an S or A+ rank mon.
Lets talk about Rotom W since it was brought up. I think it should Stay at A rank. Its great on many playstyles, just like Lando T. It has an AMAZING typing, being weak to only Grass, factoring the enemy does not have Mold Breaker. Rotom W also works amazingly with Lando T as a Voltturn core and a Status spreader. Its decent 50/107/107 bulk actually blocks a few things. It also checks birdspam kinda shakily, and it is a good switch in to MBro. But everything i said is where it faults: It does too much in this meta, and with that meh bulk hes not gonna do so well. It also has unreliable Recovery, and if you call Pain Split reliable youre cray cray. But then again, he does so much, so thats why he deserves for A rank!
Lets talk about Rotom W since it was brought up. I think it should Stay at A rank. Its great on many playstyles, just like Lando T. It has an AMAZING typing, being weak to only Grass, factoring the enemy does not have Mold Breaker. Rotom W also works amazingly with Lando T as a Voltturn core and a Status spreader. Its decent 50/107/107 bulk actually blocks a few things. It also checks birdspam kinda shakily, and it is a good switch in to MBro. But everything i said is where it faults: It does too much in this meta, and with that meh bulk hes not gonna do so well. It also has unreliable Recovery, and if you call Pain Split reliable youre cray cray. But then again, he does so much, so thats why he deserves for A rank!
Mega-Sableye
Stats: 50 HP / 85 Atk / 125 Def / 85 SAtk / 115 SDef / 20 Spd
Ability: Magic Bounce**
Mega-Sableye to A+ or S rank
Mega-Sableye is by far one off the most consistent and annoying megas around, and i don't think im the only one noticing how centralizing this pokemon is atm. fitting stall based teams and bulky teams with bascially no drawback at all is simply amazing, having the ability to set up on basically anything not named a fire/fairy type or taunt M-Gyarados while also spreading burns like nothing else. it has a great longivity move in recover, a great ability in magic bounce which is basically what makes this pokemon so hard to deal with. it also packs some off the best stabs in the game while also being weak to one type only, while also having a great set up move in calm mind. if this thing gets a single calm mind it will be extremely hard to beat if u don't pack a strong fire type, fairy type or some kind off specially boosting threath that can 2hko it which makes it extremely centralizing. even if theres a fairy on the opposing team, mega-sableye will basically never be dead weight due to it's pre-mega having prankster + amazing utility it will ALWAYS do something which is a very strong argument for high ranked pokemon in general. with it's amazing consistency, extreme utility and amazing walling capabilities i think mega-sableye is an A+ rank threath and im even going to say that it is good enough for S rank. lol it's ability to stop a lot off offensive teams are extremely annoying, im even running heal block latios to beat this thing... as i said it's extremely centralizing atm. u will always need a pokemon that can beat it 1v1 just because it's so incredibly hard to wear down, this is also a very solid argument at it being so centralizing and ofc annoying...
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I seriously don't understand why keldeo is S rank.. fan service? It's not versitile, it's not THAT fast without scarf, it has no real niche that seperates it from other fast hard hitting special attacks like latios and greninja, it's just overall not that amazing.. especially in a meta where magnezone, latios, talonflame, and rotom running around.. as well as dragalge who counters him and pretty much kills something whether it's keldeo or a switch in.. he can't afford to lock into a move with choice items. He's not terrible but he's outclassed and doesn't do too much; utility or countering things wise.
Azumarill -> S
Azumaril is rediculous IMHO.. it can run a rediculous amount of sets from AV, CB, rare belly drum, it's easy to slap on a team and nothing really counters with aqua jet, superpower, knock off, and play rough coverage.. azumaril revenge kills so much of the metagame and can wall break pretty much everything.
Gallade (Mega) -> A-
This is possibly the most controversal one yet.. while he caused metacham to fall, gallade isn't too much better either. He's not that great at sweeping with scarfers everywhere, he's hard walled by sableye and can't particularly club bro to death with anything even if you taunt.. talonflame still murders him, and shadow sneak, his only priority, is just weak.. weaker than aegislash's was without STAB. He's versitile yes, but that's the only reason I see him A rank is versitility cause speed tiers are pretty much nonexsistant in today's meta. Base 165 Atk without an items isn't that impressive either..
Landorus-T -> S
Pretty much on the same page as everybody else.. he's almost overcentralizing forcing some pokemon to run unnessecary ice coverage and is slapped on nearly every team out there. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said already.
S rank for Azumarill is an insanity. Azumarill lost a great portion of his versatily, because the Assault Vest Azumarill is almost completely useless, mainly due to Gunk Shot Greninja , which is almost in every Greninja. 165 atk are enough impressive , ah wait , Gallade can learn swords dance? Another thing, who uses Dragalge in ou and how he can be viable? Anyway , i support Keldeo for A+ or also A.
Edit: I read about that Dragalge in ORAS has his hidden ability released , could probably have some niches but i would not take it as a reference point for keldeo
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Well, here are a few of my thoughts. I'm not just theorymonning, these are all mons I have experience with high and low on the ladder:
Mega Metagross should stay in A+. He should not move up to S. This is because of his shitty speed tier pre-evolution which forces him to take some chip damage, making him easy to revenge kill by Sucker Punch or scarf Landorus-T, which we all know how popular he is. He fits perfectly in A+ with his fantastic power, bulk, and movepool, but shouldn't move up to S.
Mega Gallade should stay in A+. For similar reasons as Mega Metagross, he can be revenge killed easily. Base 110 speed is nice but there are faster things out there that can revenge kill it, and he has no way of raising his speed. Plus there is a thing called Talonflame. And his ability, while it does have more utility than one would expect, could be better. I have used this mon a lot, I swept a lot of teams with it, and some games I barely got to use it at all. It is very strong, but not strong enough for S.
Mega Sableye should move up to S. I feel he is very centralizing, not as much as MegaMence of course, but to the point where I feel the need to run a Gardevoir or Sylveon on every team. He can be very difficult to kill sometimes, with fantastic typing, recovery, and being able to keep hazards away, he is just extremely annoying. Coupled with Heatran he is very hard to kill.
Mega Gardevoir: Deserves to stay in A+. Still the same threat she was in X/Y. Checks a formidable amount of special attackers and can OHKO most of them. And with stall teams coming more apparent thanks to mega Sabeleye and Mega Slowbro makes her even more useful. Being able to trace Mega Sableye's magic bounce on switch-in and bounce back a Wisp or Toxic is a beautiful thing.
Latios should go down to A+. Maybe even lower but I'm trying to be fair. I never understood why it was up there in S. Very overrated mon that gets pursuit trapped by any dark type, gets countered by any steel mon and is very predictable. Has far too many counters to be up in S rank.
Skarmory is ranked far too low in B+. He performs as a defensive wall extraordinarily well and everyone knows this. Fantastic utility mon that gets tons of usage and for a good reason. He deserves at least an A-.
Diggersby for A. ORAS move tutors gave him a lot of love with access to Knock Off and the Elemental punches, giving him an unpredictability factor now on top of his wallbreaking power.
This one I'm kind of iffy about, but Mega Medicham for A- now. This thing still hits like a truck, but I feel it is outclassed by both Mega Lopunny and Mega Gallade, who both have a lot of power and are faster, and they can also set up.
And there seems to be a lot of talk about Dragalge being viable in OU, which is not the case. He gets countered by every steel mon in existence, and being slow with a ground, dragon, and ice weakness is a terrible thing in OU. He might be too strong for UU, I don't know, I don't play UU and I'm not one to decide that. But I know from experience that if you use Dragalge in OU, you're gonna have a bad time.
Mega Metagross should stay in A+. He should not move up to S. This is because of his shitty speed tier pre-evolution which forces him to take some chip damage, making him easy to revenge kill by Sucker Punch or scarf Landorus-T, which we all know how popular he is. He fits perfectly in A+ with his fantastic power, bulk, and movepool, but shouldn't move up to S.
Mega Gallade should stay in A+. For similar reasons as Mega Metagross, he can be revenge killed easily. Base 110 speed is nice but there are faster things out there that can revenge kill it, and he has no way of raising his speed. Plus there is a thing called Talonflame. And his ability, while it does have more utility than one would expect, could be better. I have used this mon a lot, I swept a lot of teams with it, and some games I barely got to use it at all. It is very strong, but not strong enough for S.
Mega Sableye should move up to S. I feel he is very centralizing, not as much as MegaMence of course, but to the point where I feel the need to run a Gardevoir or Sylveon on every team. He can be very difficult to kill sometimes, with fantastic typing, recovery, and being able to keep hazards away, he is just extremely annoying. Coupled with Heatran he is very hard to kill.
Mega Gardevoir: Deserves to stay in A+. Still the same threat she was in X/Y. Checks a formidable amount of special attackers and can OHKO most of them. And with stall teams coming more apparent thanks to mega Sabeleye and Mega Slowbro makes her even more useful. Being able to trace Mega Sableye's magic bounce on switch-in and bounce back a Wisp or Toxic is a beautiful thing.
Latios should go down to A+. Maybe even lower but I'm trying to be fair. I never understood why it was up there in S. Very overrated mon that gets pursuit trapped by any dark type, gets countered by any steel mon and is very predictable. Has far too many counters to be up in S rank.
Skarmory is ranked far too low in B+. He performs as a defensive wall extraordinarily well and everyone knows this. Fantastic utility mon that gets tons of usage and for a good reason. He deserves at least an A-.
Diggersby for A. ORAS move tutors gave him a lot of love with access to Knock Off and the Elemental punches, giving him an unpredictability factor now on top of his wallbreaking power.
This one I'm kind of iffy about, but Mega Medicham for A- now. This thing still hits like a truck, but I feel it is outclassed by both Mega Lopunny and Mega Gallade, who both have a lot of power and are faster, and they can also set up.
And there seems to be a lot of talk about Dragalge being viable in OU, which is not the case. He gets countered by every steel mon in existence, and being slow with a ground, dragon, and ice weakness is a terrible thing in OU. He might be too strong for UU, I don't know, I don't play UU and I'm not one to decide that. But I know from experience that if you use Dragalge in OU, you're gonna have a bad time.
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