Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

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alexwolf

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Image by Andrew
Credit to PK Gaming for the format


Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. This thread and the one in the Victory Road subforum will be using the same rankings, with the updates being posted first here. Posts in both threads will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.


Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:
Pokemon that reside in C, C-, and D, as well as questionable ranking placements


XY OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S Rank

Greninja
Landorus-T
Latios
Metagross (Mega)
Thundurus

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Altaria (Mega)
Azumarill
Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-X)
Clefable
Gallade (Mega)
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Gyarados (Mega)
Heatran
Keldeo
Landorus
Latias
Lopunny (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y)
Diancie (Mega)
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Latias (Mega)
Manectric (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)
Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Celebi
Diggersby
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heracross (Mega)
Hippowdon

Jirachi
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Manaphy
Politoed
Sceptile (Mega)
Terrakion
Tyranitar

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)
Amoonguss
Breloom
Chansey
Chesnaught
Dragonite
Hawlucha
Kabutops
Kingdra
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/quagsire.3497326/']
Klefki[/URL]
Kyurem-B
Mew
Raikou
Skarmory
Starmie

B Rank

Beedrill (Mega)
Crawdaunt
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/cresselia']Cresselia
[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gothitelle-gp-1-2.3497545/']Gothitelle[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gothitelle-gp-1-2.3497545/'] Houndoom (Mega) [/URL]
Latios (Mega)
Mandibuzz
Quagsire
Omastar
Rhyperior
Scizor
Suicune
Swampert (Mega)
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sharpedo.3523346/']Sharpedo (Mega)
[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sylveon-qc-2-3.3502841/'] Togekiss[/URL]
Tornadus-T
Tyranitar (Mega)
Victini
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/weavile.3495135/']Weavile
[/URL]

B- Rank

Alomomola
Azelf
Conkeldurr
Empoleon
Garchomp (Mega)
Lucario
Magneton

Scolipede
Sylveon
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/tangrowth']Tangrowth
[/URL]
Toxicroak
Zapdos

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

Ampharos (Mega)
Doublade
Camerupt (Mega)
Cobalion
Gastrodon
Medicham (Mega)
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sableye.3499672/'] Staraptor[/URL]
Wobbuffet

C Rank

Aggron (Mega)
Alakazam
Blastoise (Mega)
Bronzong
Chandelure
Ditto
Dragalge
Entei
Espeon
Froslass
Glalie (Mega)
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/goodra-qc-2-3.3495205/']Goodra
[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/espeon.3500885/'] Infernape[/URL]
Lanturn
Mienshao
Porygon2
Rotom-H
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sableye.3499672/']Sableye
[/URL]
Seismitoad
Shuckle
Slowking
Smeargle
Tentacruel
Thundurus-T

C- Rank

Absol (Mega)
Blissey
Diancie
Exploud
Gourgeist-Small
Haxorus
Ludicolo
Noivern
Pangoro
Pidgeot (Mega)
Tornadus
Volcarona
Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Audino (Mega)
Cloyster
Cofagrigus
Dugtrio
Flygon
Gorebyss
Heracross
Hydreigon
Jellicent
Meloetta
Metagross
Salamence
Steelix (Mega)
Venomoth
Whimsicott


''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.
  • None

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.
  • Florges
  • Donphan
  • Heliolisk
  • Darmanitan
  • Jolteon
Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
  • No flaming
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
  • PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.
Happy posting ♪♪
 
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alexwolf

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Here are the initial placements for the new Mega Evolutions:

Mega Beedril: B
Mega Pidgeot: C-
Mega Slowbro: A
Mega Steelix: D
Mega Sceptile: A-
Mega Swampert: B+
Mega Sableye: A-
Mega Sharpedo: B-
Mega Camerupt: B
Mega Altaria: A
Mega Glalie: C
Mega Salamence: S
Mega Metagross: A+
Mega Latias: A
Mega Latios: B
Mega Lopunny: A
Mega Gallade: A+
Mega Audino: D
Mega Diancie: A

You can discuss anything you want, i haven't yet figured out how we are going to update the thread, so for now everything goes.
 
Oh hey, Mega Salamence is S rank. What a shocker.

Can I ask why Mega Latias isn't at least A+ ranking? She's one of the best, if not the best, offensive Calm Minders in the tier. She's got fantastic bulk and isn't weak to Knock Off, unlike many other Calm Minders. She's certainly better than regular Latias, so I'm wondering why she's not the same tier.
In fact, Mega Latios certainly should be at least B+ or A as well. The ONLY disadvantage of using Mega Latios is the use of a Mega slot, which is highly worth it if you don't have a designated Mega.
 
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wishes

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Mega Slowbro: A Rank ---> A+ Rank
I know this is a completely radical suggestion, but Mega Slowbro is an absolute monster. With insanely high Defense, it has the capacity to wall a large portion of the metagame. To put its bulk into perspective, it has a higher Defense stat than Furfrou when both are invested. This enables it to stomach even the most powerful hits. One example is Mega Salamence's Return, as even a +1 it has only a 53% chance to actually 2HKO it. Plus, it can even utilize Calm Mind, which is essentially adding an Assault Vest. Its Special Attack is nothing to laugh it either, it's actually the same as Latios: 130. Calm Mind / Rest / Sleep Talk / Scald has so many opportunities to setup and go to town, devouring the opponent's team provided it doesn't get unlucky crit hax. Oh wait, did I say crit hax? Yeah, no, Mega Slowbro will never be critted, making it all the harder to beat. The biggest issue with Mega Slowbro is Electric-types, the few things that can actually beat it. All of them are threatened with a Scald burn, though. It's hard to justify Mega Slowbro not being A+ Rank when it's such a great Pokemon.
 

Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
Alright, I don't like posting until threads like this slow down, but since this the first page...

Mega Sableye in A- Rank? This thing is one of the best things we received and it can support a team in various ways and sweep. It spreads burns and recovers and is just a pain in the ass to deal with. It has two excellent abilities to abuse which makes it even more annoying. Mega Sharpedo literally flips stall teams backwards and makes them shit their pants with its Crunches. It cleans up offensive teams easily when it's checks are weakened making it a solid win condition right now. Also, Mega Aerodactyl got a lot better in the transition, and Tentacruel is a lot better for walling Greninja (lol no one uses Extrasensory now) and having excellent synergy with a lot of the 'mons.

tl;dr Mega Sableye up to A. Tentacruel to C+. Mega Sharpedo to B. Mega Aerodactyl Bump?
 
Megacham should definitely go down by quite a few ranks. Speed creep isn't kind to it and I think pretty much everyone was in agreement that Megalade just does it's job a thousand times better aside from immediate power. I know it's not much of an explanation, but... eh, it's time is gone.
Can we get some reasoning behind Audino being ranked at all?
 
Honestly I'm wondering should Mega Latios even be ranked at all? Life orb latios can do what it can. In addition it just isn't that good of a ddancer. Also the standard it uses up a mega slot argument. At the very least, B seems way to high for it.
 
Seeing Mega Latios in B when regular Latios is in S is really weird considering that Mega Latios is arguably a better Pokemon overall. I mean, I get that Mega Latios isn't that much better, so if you wanted to use another Mega Pokemon, you'd be better off doing that and using regular Latios. However, Mega Latios is still really good in its own right despite the competition it receives for that Mega slot. I'd say move this thing up to A, maybe A- if you really think the competition it gets for that Mega slot is a huge deal, but B is really low.

I've already explain my thoughts on Mega Camerupt in its respective thread, but I just think that while it has some cool perks in raw power, solid bulk, and unique typing, its insanely low speed and competition for a Mega slot are too big of issues to make it an especially attractive choice. I think it'd fit well alongside Mega Ampharos, who has a similar set of pros and cons. If not to C+, at least drop it to B- since I just don't think it's as good overall as stuff like Alomomola, Chesnaught, and a lot of the other stuff in B (and especially Mega Latios lol).
 
I really dont think Keldeo should be S anymore. The new metagame just isnt that kind to it anymore. For starters, the speed creep leaves Keldeo at a tier that just isnt that fast anymore, plenty of new megas outrun it. Secondly, Mega Salamence and Mega Altaria are very common and resist both of its stabs. If Keldeo is locked into anything other than Icy Wind, they use it as setup fodder. Salemence outruns Keldeo before even boosting anyways. Sorry I dont have time to elaborate more on this, but Keldeo should really drop.
 
Honestly I'm wondering should Mega Latios even be ranked at all? Life orb latios can do what it can. In addition it just isn't that good of a ddancer. Also the standard it uses up a mega slot argument. At the very least, B seems way to high for it.
I can see the case for it. If you happened to build a team with Latios in and no Mega, you might as well just slap on Latiosite to basically make the set a little bulkier and make Knock off weaker. It's not something to consider over any other Mega, it's just a... might-as-well-why-not case.
 

wishes

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Salamence should have a S+rank or something,it's ridiculously good.
Gallade-M is just too high in a salamence meta which totally destroys this guy.It also has bad match ups with a lot of the new megas(mence,sableye and bro as well as some)and it isn't really easy to have switch-in oppturnities with this guy.A is fine for it(although A- won't be a bad idea).
And,bro as well as mega eye should move up a rank.Can i know why m-diancie is this high?
Swampert should rise,everyone knows it's a lot better than kabutops.
 
Sorry, not really.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 199-235 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Stats brought up to Mega Salamence's spread)
Plus, with Knock Off everywhere, I would be too paranoid to have it on my team in general.
It still has a good chance of falling to Porygon 2 if it switches in during a DD or is sent in after one of your team mates falls. Lets not forget it can come in and copy it's intimidate ability.

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 292-348 (88.2 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

It also reeks terror whenever it traces Protean from Greninja.
 

Albacore

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Well. Looks like I can finally post my 1K now. Here we go :
Mega-Gallade for S rank
Thundurus-I for S rank
Mega-Latias for A+/S rank
Mega-Sableye for A+ rank
Mega-Altaria for A+ rank
Keldeo for A+ rank
Latios for A+ rank
Excadrill for A+ rank
Magnezone for A/A+ rank
Mega-Gardevoir for A rank
Azumarill for A rank
Mega-Aerodactyl for A rank
Mega-Beedrill for A - rank
Weavile for B+ rank
Gothitelle for B+ rank
Chesnaught for B+ rank
Mega-Pinsir for B rank
Mega-Medicham for B rank
Cresselia for B rank
Starmie for B rank
Porygon2 for C+
Dugtrio for C+ rank
Doublade for C rank
Honchkrow for C- rank (yes, Honchkrow, bear with me here)

here is the reasoning behind all of these in case you enjoy massive walls of text :
-> S Probably the most controversial nomination I'm going to make here, but I'm pretty adamant about it. This thing is a terrifying sweeper that can tear through both offensive and defensive teams alike. It has a pretty limited number of good defensive answers : Although Mega-Sableye is a hard stop to it, Clefable can easily be crippled by Knocked Off and needs Unaware to actually beat it which means it gets worn down by SR, Altaria is okay but kinda shaky since it can easily get worn down to a range where it gets KO'd at +2 (even more so if Gallade runs Ice Punch in which case it needs barely more than SR damage), Skarmory isn't an answer at all since, and no matter what it runs, Gallade always beats it reliably as long as it SD'd on the switch by CCing if it's in KO range, SDing again if not but Sturdy is broken, or Zen Headbutting if Skarm is at full. However, it is, if anything, even better vs offensive teams, thanks to its combination of bulk and speed. Slower stuff just gets shredded, while faster stuff like Greninja or Weavile or scarf Lando-T can't even OHKO it back and get wrecked the following turn (or in Lando-T's case, get knocked off if it doesn't run Ice Punch). It almost guarantees one kill vs offense if you don't play like a moron, I mean, it can literally come in on Specs Keldeo locked into Hydro Pump, Mega up, take the hit, SD, and destroy it next turn, possibly sweeping the rest of the opposing team in the process. Really, the only reason I can see for it not getting S is that it's eaten alive by the best mon in the tier, and we also have a bunch of new base 110 Speed megas that threaten it (Diancie, MMetagross, but even then you're relying on a speed tie to beat it) and we've seen a pretty big speed creep, but as I said everything faster just loses 1v1 so it's not too big a deal. This thing is excellent vs every archetype besides Sableye stall and definitely deserves S rank IMO.

-> A+/S. Don't think that many people are going to disagree with this one on the other hand. CM Stored Power is a ferocious win condition just sweeps teams lacking a Dark-type, and although clearing out every dark type seems like huge support, it's really not to much of a problem since you all you need to do it wear then down to death, you don't need much more than a few consistent switchins+hazards from experience (the only times I lost using this thing was to Mega-Sableye which I will admit is a pretty big problem, since it's the only Dark-type that does not get recovery and therefore is not put on a timer besides the nigh-irrelevant Mandibuzz, and bounces back hazards to boot). And if you add all the other sets (CM Roost+Dual STABs, CM Roost+a STAB+HP Fire/Fighting, heck even just a regular MLatias set) this thing is pretty clearly at least A+ rank.

-> A+. This thing is amazing on Stall, it covers such a ridiculous amounts of threats, some of which are really threatening for defensive teams like SP MLatias and Mgallade , beats most physical attackers thanks to WoW (even beats Azu 1v1 if it's not evolved yet lol). Switches into every rock setter bar Clefable, spinblocks Bulky Starmie perfectly and can deter Excarill and offensive Starmie from spinning too. Its also able to sweep quite well, setting up over a huge portion of the metagame. It can tear apart defensive teams, while still holding a lot of utility against offense if it decides to not MEvo and keep Prankster Wisp/Recover/CM. Probably the single best mega available for Stall, can also fit on more offensive teams. The amount of utility this thing provides is so insane it's almost dumb not to run it on stall. I'm having a hard time convincing myself it shouldn't be S rank tbh; but given that S rank's standard have been heightened considerably A+ is definitely fine.

-> A+. Excellent defensive Pokemon too though not quite as good as MSableye overall. In fact, the only reason you don't see it on most Stall is because MSableye exists and is more valuable to stall teams, but still, the amount of stuff MAltaria deals with is probably too large to mention, but I'm going to try : Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Crawdant, Keldeo, MHera, Rotom-W, MGyara, MSableye, MManectric, Raikou, and probably more. It can also choose to beat either Zard (needs Draco Meteor for X and Toxic/Body Slam as well as some SpD for Y). But what really sells this thing is the amount of offensive presence it has. My personal favourite set is Phys Def DD with Heal Bell, it sets up very easily and can sweep without much difficulty at all. I've also tried Roost 3 Attacks and it's very good too. I'm sure Offensive DD is pretty solid too. The fact that you can keep much the defensive utility of Maltaria and still be very offensively threatening is what makes MAltaria so great. In many ways, it's a lot like Mega-Venusaur in that sense, except it's even harder to switch into. As far is I know there only thing which can reliably switch into every MAltaria set and beat it and that is SpD Taunt Talonflame, and even then it can struggle to take down the Offensive DD set. This thing is a real threat and a solid A+ rank in my eyes.

-> A-. A lot of people think this thing is garbage when it really isn't? It's actually quite good. Save for Timid MZam and Jolly MAero, nothing outspeeds it besides scarfers, and those just get Protected in the face. It's a massive pain for offensive teams, its U-Turns hit pretty hard and wear stuff down really well. Heck, it's even not too bad vs defensive teams, even though have no trouble walling and wearing down this threat, U-Turn lets a wallbreaker come in for free to just wreck havoc. It's especially good when paired up with Magnezone, since it traps Beedrill's two main answers on Stall, Skamory and Ferrothorn (though ferro still takes like 40% from U-Turn so it's not a great counter by any means). And yeah, it can't take a hit, it doesn't need to. If you're doing anything else than protecting turn 1, then just spamming U-Turn and maybe occasionally Poison Jabbing a Clefable, Knocking Off a Gengar or Skarmory or Drill Running a Hetaran, you're doing it wrong (and please for the love of god do not run SD on this thing I don't think I need to explain why) The only reason it isn't A is that it needs, and I mean NEEDS rocks to be off to do anything. And it's not like Talonflame or YZard who despise SR but can still put on some work with them on the field. Beedrill is pretty much useless as long as rocks are up, so you need to either pack very good hazard removal or stop hazards from going up in the first place. Still a pretty good mega.

-> S. This thing benefits a lot from the huge speed creep we've seen. Access to Pransker Twave gives offense a way of dealing with not just MMence, but also MLopunny, Greninja and MBeedrill . Not quite sure about S rank though because a) sand is a big thing and so is Scarf Lando-T b) MSceptile thwarts this thing's attempts to paralyze it.

-> A+. I'm lumping these two together because they're pretty much in the same boat. Both of them hate the influx of fast megas, especially Keldeo, who can't even hope to tie with all the 110 speed megas. A lot of new Megas take advantage of them, Salamence Metagross, Diancie, Gallade, Sceptile, Beedrill, etc. Also, Defog isn't quite as needed now: a lot of teams run hazard-stacking with Greninja, others rely on Sableye or Diancie to bounce hazards back. However, for some reason, I still find myself using both of these quite commonly, but I really feel like the only sets that are really worth running are the scarf sets, which causes problems of their own (both kill momentum quite a bit and are setup fodder for a lot f things). For me, the nail in the coffin for these two's S-rank status is that we've gotten back to a point in the metagame where S rank standard for “Suspect”, and neither of these are even close to broken, so a drop makes a lot of sense.

-> A+. Sand has seen a big rise in usage lately, and for a few reasons. Firstly, Sand Rush Excadrill is once of offense's best ways of revenge killing Mmence (the offensive sets at least, bulky sets take what, 30% from Rock Slide? lol). It's also a great way for offensive teams to deal with the speed creep in general, checking MLopunny and MBeedrill, two big threats for offense. Also, ways of beating Greninja are becoming more and more limited, which is also a factor. Then there's the fact that MMence is excellent on Sand Offense, so Excadrill benefits doubly from its presence in the metagame. Besides Excadrill was very close to A+ in the first place (it only barely dropped) so I think a rise is justified.

-> A/A+. This thing just has amazing synergy with so many new Megas. MMence obviously, but also Beedrill, Metagross, Altaria, Sceptile, Diancie, Lopunny to an extent. Not only that, but it, funnily enough, also checks a lot of these Megas too. Its job of removing Steel types is even more valuable in this metagame, and it's just so easy to put Magnezone on your team and not have to worry about Skarmory, Ferrothron, Pinsir or Talonflame ruining your fun. Absolutely a top-tier threat.

-> A. Just not as good as it used to be. For a start, it can no longer check Greninja because lol Gunk Shot. The fact that there is now a very solid switchin to it that fits pretty well on offense in the form of Mega Metagross is a massive problem for it too. It also suffers from the rise in usage of Sand Rush Excadrill and Scarf Magezones. Mega-Beedrill is also a bit of a problem for it I guess, though it obviously can't switch in at all lol. I guess it does have a few things going for it in ORAS, it beats MSceptile and is the best answer the MSableye there is, but ORAS brought more bad things than good things for MGardevoir overall, and I feel like a drop makes sense.

-> A. Man this thing got so much worse. Really, the only doubts I have about it dropping are because I still don't think it was A+ rank by the end of XY but now... yeah. Gunk Shot Greninja is just the tip of the iceberg, now it also loses to MMetagross, MSceptile, MBeedrill to a lesser extent (although Aqua Jet does a ton especially if banded, it still loses 1v1)... This is pretty big deal, because Azumarill's greatest asset was the ability to beat any offensive threat besides Phys Def MZor and MVenu 1v1 (who can both kinda be momentum killers in all honest), therefore being a bulky threat that does not let the opponent gain much momentum, or send something offensively dangerous in for free. But now? Azumarill lets MMetagross switch into it for free, forcing you to pack a proper switchin to that, which on offense, is hard to find. Azumarill used to be a Pokemon that could never be a liability, but now, it can be, and that digs a huge hole into its niche.

-> A. This thing is just hilariously antimeta atm, so many teams are weak to it it's absurd. Amazing Speed tier enabling it to check a bunch of megas suck as MLopunny, MSceptile, MGallade and MBeedrill. It's one of the best anwsers to MMence there is and is pretty much the only switchin to the DD set which can fit on offense besides Rhyperior who is kind of a momentum killer tbh. Can also revenge kill Greninja (even switches in on Gunk Shot which is neat). The fact that literally no-one prepares for it is just the icing on the cake. Very underrated mega.

-> B+. This is basically offense's best way of stopping MMence without having to run stupid crap like Scarfed Greninja. It also checks Greninja itself which, once again, is a huge deal now, and can also revenge kill MSceptile (which Thundurus can't do and Excadrill needs to run Life Orb+have SR damage on it to do) and chip away at MBeedrill. It's a much better Pokemon in this metagame overral. A strong Ice Shard is just really valuable right now.

-> B+. Much like Magnezone, Gothitelle has seen a lot more usage, and it's easy to understand why : its ability to trap various stuff makes it a good partner for a bunch of megas such as Salamence, Altaria Slowbro, Metagross and Gallade to some extent, as well as Greninja (most good answers to it being beyond passive).

-> B+. Actually a very solid mon, and it really benefited from the ORAS move tutors, giving it 2 really neat moves in Drain Punch and Super Fang, the last one being especially nice since it guarantees 50% damage on any non-ghost type early game enabling it to wear stuff down much more easily. But besides that, it's still a really good physical wall in general, and Spikes are obviously really nice to have. I'm not really sure why I find it to be noticeably better in ORAS, but it's probably due to the fact that this is a faster paced, less wallbreaky metagame. It is wrecked by every S rank-worthy mon so I can understand if it stays B, but I really feel like it's improved to the point of being on par with the rest of B+.

-> B. Once again, putting these two together because both are in the unfortunate position of being, for the most part, outclassed by better Megas (respectively Salamence and Gallade). They both sport more immediate power, especially in MMedicham's case, and MPinsir does get acess to Swords Dance and priority which MMence lacks, however, their alternatives have such huge perks (much more bulk, better coverage and more utility options for both, reliable recovery, Dragon Dance and a far better typing in MMence's case, Swords Dance in MGallade's case) that it is hard to justify them being used at all.

-> B. I've been using this a lot in ORAS and it's actually pretty damn good. Like Chesnaught, it appreciates the fact that the metagame has become faster with stuff like MMence, MLopunny and MSceptile, and that people are dedicating their mega to wallbreaking less often now. Now, a lot of you may be thinking “if Doublade got worse then how could Cresselia have gotten better?” Well, Doublade's viability entirely depends on the state of the metagame. It walls a very specific set of things thanks to its typing, and if these things become less relevant (as they did) it struggles to find a place on teams. Cresselia doesn't care, it has the ridiculous raw bulk to tank most of what the metagame can throw at it, and it's a great blanket check to a ton of random stuff (heck, it even takes on Dark Pulse Greninja). Yes it's extremely passive, but the amount of stuff it can just take on by its own is pretty impressive. However, the fact that the metagame isn't kind to passive play at all right now makes this one a bit iffy. It's also huge Goth bait which is a problem. But hey, anything that can take on MMence is pretty valuable right now I'd say, so a rise is somewhat warranted.

-> B. The amount of faster Pokemon that have been in the metagame makes life hard for this thing since now, a few things (Lopunny, Sceptile, Beedrill) are able to outspeed it before it can get a spin off. What really makes this thing worth dropping though is Mega-Sableye, who is on most stall teams and laughs at Starmie's pathetic attempts to remove hazards, especially if it's running a bulky set. Since the bulky set in question is most often used on stall and balanced teams, it makes stall v stall matchups almost impossible to win for a team running Starmie as its hazard remover since hazards will be impossible to either set or remove.


-> B-. P2's ability to counter the 2 most powerful Pokemon in the metagame, Greninja and Mega-Salamence, with the same set is a very valuable niche. Moreover, what applies to Cresselia also applies to Porygon-2 : the metagame has become faster with fewer mega slots dedicated to wallbreaking, which benefits generic bulky stuff

-> C+. As you can probably guess by now, trappers are pretty much all way better in this metagame, and Dugtrio is no exception. Traps stuff for Sceptile, Latias, Metagross, Greninja etc... Has seen a lot of usage and is featured a few times on the ORAS cores thread. This thing is definitely more viable now.

-> C. As I've said, most of the stuff this thing used to wall have either gone down in usage due to being threatened by the new megas (MGardevoir, MHeracross) or just got replaced by stuff that can beat it (MMedicham by MGallade, MPinsir by MMence). I guess it beats EQless MMetagross and MSceptile, but the latter isn't really a problem for stall teams in all honesty. It's nowhere near as valuable for Stall now as it used to be, and is more often a liability in ORAS than anything else. Then, there's also the fact that MSableye has become the token ghost type on stall.

→ C-. Props to my buddy Sucker Lunch (the original Lanturn guy) for using this on a joke birdspam team and discovering it's actually kinda decent lol. Simply put, not too much switches into this thing, as I discovered when trying to actually counterteam Sucker Lunch. Slowbro, for instance is 2HKO'd by Brave Bird after SR. Skarmory is a very good counter obviously, but being walled by Skarm isn't the biggest problem especially given how good Gothitelle and Magnezone are atm (and if you really hate Skarm you can always run Heat Wave, or even Dark Pulse which 2HKOs after Rocks while letting you beat Mega-Slowbro). Other good answers such as Lando-T, Rotom-W and Rhyperior, get worn down relatively easily (both just need to be at around 70% to be 2HKO'd by Brave Bird and Superpower respectivaly, and afaik Phys Def Lando-T only creeps Adamant Bisharp by one point so Honch outspeeds that by one point too which is hilarious). Klefki deals with it well, but once again, it gets worn down, and unless it runs Play Rough it can't do much more than paralyze/poison it so Sub sets just laugh at it (Or, if you're a pro teambuilder like me, you can always use Phys Def Intimidate Mawile). Then you've got stuff like Phys Def Hippowdon I guess, Phys Def Creslleia and Doubalde who loss to Sub sets, and Suicune+Alomomola who has to rely on Scald burn to actually beat it, besides that not much is a good switch into it. But yeah, this thing hits shockingly hard, and holds some utility vs offense too thanks to Sucker Punch, and useful Ground and Psychic immunities. It does admittedly die extremely fast due to Life Orb+Brave Bird recoil and might seem outclassed by Bisharp, but although it does hold a lot of competition from it, it has a bunch of advatages namely a more powerful main STAB, the ability to somewhat bypass physical walls with mixed offenses, Roost (sounds dumb on something this frail but lets you not get worn down to death vs stall teams), and Moxie, which is pretty key since it means you can't actually sack stuff to it without suffering the consequenses, making it pretty tricky to play round. It also holds competition from Talonflame I guess, but it obviously hits a bit harder w/o being choice locked and is also harder to wall in general. Also, it's the only dark type in the tier which beats Chesnaught+Empoleon besides Low Kick Greninja, and not being a free swithcin for MHera is a good perk for a Dark-type too. It's not the next Mega-Mawile or anything, but it's actually a decent wallbreaker with very powerful priority, so I think it has enough qualities to be ranked.

Couple of replays just to showcase my point :

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-181445993
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-181450975

Also shoutouts :


I don't have the time or energy to make individual shoutouts so feel free to assume there usrs are all varying degrees of good

edit : Tenta should be B- but I forgot to mention that and can't be bothered to write it up so zzz
 
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Should Mega Audino be ranked? It's really bulky and all, but I don't really see how it serves any niche in ORAS OU considering there are better defensive fairy types in the tier like Mega Altaria and Clefable, and better defensive megas in general. It has a unique typing, but it's not letting it stop anything specific I think.
 
Honestly I'm wondering should Mega Latios even be ranked at all? Life orb latios can do what it can. In addition it just isn't that good of a ddancer. Also the standard it uses up a mega slot argument. At the very least, B seems way to high for it.
Someone else stated on another thread (can't find it right now) that Latios is really a "luxury" mega; that is, you slap it on your team when you realize you don't really have/need a specific mega. Really you use it b/c the lack of LO recoil makes up for the slight loss in power. I agree that it's pretty tricky to rank it, as it's not BAD per se, it's just outclassed... by itself.

Might we see Weavile move up? His new ability to have knock off + shard + icicle crash + low kick, as well as the prominence of megamence + lando-t might increase his niche.
 
My problem with this is that Mega Salamence OHKOes Specially Defensive variants with Return after Spikes, while if it runs Phsysically Defensive it has a possibility to lose to Greninja (who can 2HKO after a tiny bit of prior damage and Spikes btw). It just can't run everything and I wouldn't call it a "great answer" to either of them honestly.
Unless i'm wrong, Porygon2 can trace intimidate if it switches in on mence during the turn it mega evolves. Also the fact that Greninja needs prior damage and spikes to 2HKO makes still makes it a great answer to it relative to everything else.
 

wishes

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Mega Charizard X: S Rank ---> A+ Rank
This was a change I never really thought I'd see happen, and it might be a bit controversial, but I feel the need to bring it up. Currently, I've yet to see one in around 50 battles. With all these new offensive Megas, using Mega Charizard X means you can't run Mega Salamence. Mega Salamence is the main thing I'll compare it too. Mega Salamence fulfills many more roles and is generally better as a Dragon Dance user, where Mega Charizard X is facing competition from currently. Its bulky Will-O-Wisp set is cool and all, sure, but I just don't think it's worthy of S Rank anymore. Will put more thoughts later, but have to go u_u.
 
I know she's blacklisted but I want to ask this and be done with it : Can Florges now be a better option than Sylveon because of Synthesis (obviously not in a Wisher role) ? (Even though with GunkShot Greninja I'm not really sure if we'll see a lot of them in the beginning of ORAS)
 

Miridy

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I'm not necessarily saying that Charizard X is worth of S Rank, but the Salamence mega Slot argument can be applied for a good deal of offensive megas atm, and that usage does not mean viability, right now there is a "shiny new syndrome" or so to say, that makes the "old megas" less used.
MrTharne Synthesis is actually not that great as a recovery tbh especially if you have Wish, it's not enough to Give Florges a niche over Sylveon or Clefable.
 
Someone else stated on another thread (can't find it right now) that Latios is really a "luxury" mega; that is, you slap it on your team when you realize you don't really have/need a specific mega. Really you use it b/c the lack of LO recoil makes up for the slight loss in power. I agree that it's pretty tricky to rank it, as it's not BAD per se, it's just outclassed... by itself.
I understand the logic, but usually say you have a team with Latios and no other mega pokemon you are usually better off just replacing something else for another mega then just giving Latios the mega.
 

Srn

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Welp looks like this started up. I guess I pretty much agree with the initial placements but I have a few gripes:
mega latias shuld definitely be A+, the CM stored power set is monstrous and darks arent difficult to get rid of; its counters are far and few between, and it sets up on fucking cm mg clefable its stupidly good.

Mega gyarados should also be A+, with crunch under its belt its a fucking monster and a jolly max speed lets it outpace mscept and that general speed tier too, as well as being able to soft check a bunch of crap in general, like mega metagross and mega camerupt. its outstanding in this meta with the new and shiny crunch.
 
Seconding M-Latias for S Rank, that thing is stupid good and its honestly not hard for it to get tons of boosts and sweep, thanks to its great bulk. And the only support it really needs is a way to remove dark types which isn't that difficult at all, (fuck mega sableye though) and pretty much any resist gets 2hkod, as like I said, it doesn't have a hard time getting to +4/+4.
 
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