np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[WoHenRe]

That argument doesn't work because your argument is in effect "just plug in this pokemon to deal with" when suspect testing doesn't care about whether a person can deal with a particular pokemon but rather does it alter the metagame in a negative fashion. And the answer is yes.

Look at all those pokemon you named and this is barring the particular Greninja you are facing doesn't have the move to take you out. The fact that you have to pick and choose from all those sets of pokemon and arrange in them in a way to counter 1 pokemon tells us all we need to know.

All Greninja has to do is surprise you just once with a move and you are in really big trouble. Even then you won't know all its movesets and so you have keep on scouting before you can properly handle it. Then after handling it and smiling to yourself, you realize that you have to face 5 other really strong OU pokemon to win the match.

It is a menace to the tier and predicting/scouting/running odd EV spreads just to check this frog is a pain in the ass to the entire OU metagame. Ban him.

"Tells you all that you need to know"? Firstly, name a single pokemon that i listed that isn't viable in OU for other purposes (chansey is your best bet, but still). And furthermore, those were counters, not checks (almost all of that list was checks even with Greninja running the right move anyways). If you don't have ANY of those on a team, you can still dish out a lot of damage to it with either priority moves or a choice scarf.

He said it hard counters Greninja, and I said that it only checks it (And it can't evens switch into Gunk Shot) not that Greninja can always take out Gyarados

Here are some calcs without Stealth Rock

Moxie:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 203-239 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Intimidate:
-1 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 136-161 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Keep in mind Gunk Shot's 30% chance to poison)

OK, i misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that it doesn't check it. Anyway, Gyarados will be almost exclusively be running the intimidate set, as intimidate is way better than moxie. Using your calculations, it can still do the Ddance and murder it. However, you forgot the main thing that makes gyarados not a counter to greninja: ice beam.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

To the no switchin argument- Can anything come in on mega metagross with grass knot either? That's a stupid argument. OU is a tier of checking stuff. If your team doesn't have a scarfer you deserve to lose anyway. Your opponents Greninja can't really "Get a kill every time it comes in" because it takes life orb and hazards damage and can be forced out by priority scarfers or the new faster megas.
To All of the idiots without a damage calculator-
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I don't call that beating it)
Even 252 neutral nature isn't enough for a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks.
Everyone saying P2 sucks clearly doesn't use it. It can trace any ability and becomes quite the usable pokemon. It can easily run a spread to the point where it beats greninja better than chansey. I run Twave Ice beam TriAttack and Recover and it puts in a lot of work. I still remember aim's upload where it 6-0d one team. A lot of stuff has difficulty 2HKOing it.
But back to greninja. It has to run obscure shit to beat its former counters, but then it can't rip through offense. Can a greninja with Low Kick, Gunk, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Grass power through Rotom, Azu, Keldeo, and Kube? Yes. But then it cant fire off ice beams because it's already dedicated it's 4 MSS

People seem to fail to understand. I don't run one specific Pokemon (Chansey, Empoleon, Alomomola) specificically to check Greninja. The fact that the only way to reliably beat it is to run one of these means that it does deserve to be banned. Calcing against one of its very, very few checks is pretty irrelevant.

"Oh, Greninja can't beat its checks! It's balanced because it has 3 checks!" Yeah, but they're all passive. Seriously - you guys are saying it's fine because there's 3 checks. Oh wait, not even - Emp gets killed by Low kick. Saying "oh, run this one pokemon on your team and bam, greninja is done" does NOT BY ANY MEANS mean that Greninja is "fine" is this tier. I don't want to play a metagame where color-changing ninja frogs annihilate anything slower than them bar three things. Now what'll happen if Greninja doesn't get banned? Stall. I can kinda see Stall becoming more common just because it takes care of this monster.

Sorry if I'm coming across as angry. That's because I kinda am...just because Greninja is just gonna wreak havoc on the tier. Everyone saying not to ban him is giving me "oh, it has 4mss", which it doesn't, "oh, these 2 pokemon that aren't that great for much else check greninja", which is true, or they're just opposing it because Greninja works wonders for their ladder rating.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

"Tells you all that you need to know"? Firstly, name a single pokemon that i listed that isn't viable in OU for other purposes (chansey is your best bet, but still). And furthermore, those were counters, not checks (almost all of that list was checks even with Greninja running the right move anyways). If you don't have ANY of those on a team, you can still dish out a lot of damage to it with either priority moves or a choice scarf.

Problem is that those are not at all Counters, those are checks, also your list is somewhat innacurrate because Ferrothorn doesn't like Low Kick and Manahpy doesn't really like Gunk Shot either, the problem is that Greninja can be found similar to Mega Salamence in the aspect where you can basically choose what can take a hit from Greninja (And switch into)

 

[thesecondbest]

People seem to fail to understand. I don't run one specific Pokemon (Chansey, Empoleon, Alomomola) specificically to check Greninja. The fact that the only way to reliably beat it is to run one of these means that it does deserve to be banned. Calcing against one of its very, very few checks is pretty irrelevant.

"Oh, Greninja can't beat its checks! It's balanced because it has 3 checks!" Yeah, but they're all passive. Seriously - you guys are saying it's fine because there's 3 checks. Oh wait, not even - Emp gets killed by Low kick. Saying "oh, run this one pokemon on your team and bam, greninja is done" does NOT BY ANY MEANS mean that Greninja is "fine" is this tier. I don't want to play a metagame where color-changing ninja frogs annihilate anything slower than them bar three things. Now what'll happen if Greninja doesn't get banned? Stall. I can kinda see Stall becoming more common just because it takes care of this monster.

Sorry if I'm coming across as angry. That's because I kinda am...just because Greninja is just gonna wreak havoc on the tier. Everyone saying not to ban him is giving me "oh, it has 4mss", which it doesn't, "oh, these 2 pokemon that aren't that great for much else check greninja", which is true, or they're just opposing it because Greninja works wonders for their ladder rating.

There is no reason stall will be more viable because a "broken monster" is in the tier. Ninja is one of the few things checking stall... like i said a lot of the pro ban arguments are idiotic

 

[Cogito]

"Tells you all that you need to know"? Firstly, name a single pokemon that i listed that isn't viable in OU for other purposes (chansey is your best bet, but still). And furthermore, those were counters, not checks (almost all of that list was checks even with Greninja running the right move anyways). If you don't have ANY of those on a team, you can still dish out a lot of damage to it with either priority moves or a choice scarf.

dadoux posted this on the first page.

The main purpose of a suspect/ban is to have a positive impact on the metagame after the ban, and i don't think banning Greninja can make the metagame worse, it's pretty much the contrary actually : having more possibility to build (especially in offense, Greninja is easier to deal for a stall team off course, but you can't call a metagame where everyone is forced to play stall "diverse") is only for the best.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

There is no reason stall will be more viable because a "broken monster" is in the tier. Ninja is one of the few things checking stall... like i said

Pretty sure Chansey, one of its few checks, can stall off the LO damage and handle it pretty effectively.

a lot of the pro ban arguments are idiotic

The pro-ban arguments are pretty good. No-ban has decent...decent reasoning as well, but pro-ban...Greninja is just not a healthy thing to have here. Though irrelevant to anyone here but me, I've stopped battling altogether because of it. Greninja is used on virtually every ladder team and it's honestly infuriating to play these guessing games over and over. Pokemon simply is not fun when every battle, you must scout Greninja's moveset, play guessing games...on the other hand, LO recoil, thin defenses are what the no-ban people are saying. But let me rephrase the S rank's description again:

Greninja does one role extremely well (or can play many roles).

 

[Rustyy]

I never had a problem with Greninja, ever. The only arguement I hear is that it has a large move pool and is unpredictable. So if it has a certain 4 moves it will wreck a team. So what? Lots of pokemon can say the same thing. And its not like a certain set of 4 moves wrecks every team like some of the previously banned pokemon could do.

Doesn't deserve a ban.

 

[WoHenRe]

Problem is that those are not at all Counters, those are checks, also your list is somewhat innacurrate because Ferrothorn doesn't like Low Kick and Manahpy doesn't really like Gunk Shot either

0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 164-195 (46.5 - 55.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO
Fair enough, although ferrothorn is still a check then (presuming that it runs rocky helmet), as even if it gets the 2HKO, it literally takes over half its health from each hit in recoil damage, and this is presuming that the Ferrothorn doesn't get to move either. (7/24 from iron barbs + 1/6 from rocky helmet + 1/10 from life orb = 55.8%, funnily taking more damage than it deal in recoil)

Manaphy can still check it if it runs a chest/rest set. Something like:
Manaphy@chesto berry
-Timid
-Rest
-Rain dance
-Tail glow/calm mind
-Scald

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I never had a problem with Greninja, ever. The only arguement I hear is that it has a large move pool and is unpredictable. So if it has a certain 4 moves it will wreck a team. So what? Lots of pokemon can say the same thing. And its not like a certain set of 4 moves wrecks every team like some of the previously banned pokemon could do.

Doesn't deserve a ban.

Greninja doesn't just have the ability to wreck teams, it has the ability to wreck an entire playstyle (Hyper Offense), and your last sentence is really just flat out dumb, a pokemon does not need to have the insane power levels of Pokemon like Blaziken, Mega Kangaskhan, and Mega Salamence in order to be broken (Look at Mega Mawile and Aegislash, they didn't have an absolutely insane power level but they where still considered broken)

 

[mertyville]

I normally don't argue with secondary effects of attacking moves but Greninja is able to abuse those moves to get past centain checks.

Lets say you are up against a Mega Venusaur with your Greninja and you have nothing that can switch into Giga Drain or Sludge Bomb nor you have Extrasensory on your Greninja. You might as well spam Dark Pulse and most likely get the Flinch hax and potencially take down your counter and if Venusaur fails to kill you with Giga Drain, because even if Sludge Bomb is a guarantied OHKO your opponent won't want to give you a chance to switch your frog out, then it might go to that luck based stalling game.
Sure, you can say that is not an argument for the ban but keep in mind the Greninja user does not lose anything by just spamming for hax and why shouldn't he?

Same goes for Chansey. Low Kick hits as hard as Gunk Shot against her, you might just spam the less accurate Gunk Shot and hope for the 30 % poison and maybe even kill it. Granted, it is luck but again you aren't losing much. In centain situations, you might want to say in and fish for hax and considering that, you might now even need to run more EVs to a centain stat or rely just on a single move to bypass a centain check.
I think against Chansey it works the best because that thing is so passive, you can get at least force it to Softboil once and fish for hax. Does not work out? Switch out. You aren't losing your frog and in worst case it might be paralysed or toxiced, depending on how much risk your opponent wants to take to at least take down this annoying creature.

I am specificly mentioning Gunk Shot, Extrasensory and Dark Pulse (maybe even Scald) as the moves people are going to fish for. Freeze Hax is 10 % and you have to be the either the god of hax or your opponent must the unluckiest player around for it to be worth fishing for.

Not convinced myself if that is a reason to add into Greninja's brokeness but centainly a thing to look out for when using or facing Greninja. Usually you are safe to just slap Gunk Shot on it, build your team and look what other moves should be added afterwards and EVs.
Or just go with "Standard" first and change the STAB depending on what "counter" is troubling you the most, in case you are running a non-spiker Greninja, which I think is still viable.

 

[Vengeance417]

I never had a problem with Greninja, ever. The only arguement I hear is that it has a large move pool and is unpredictable. So if it has a certain 4 moves it will wreck a team. So what? Lots of pokemon can say the same thing. And its not like a certain set of 4 moves wrecks every team like some of the previously banned pokemon could do.

Doesn't deserve a ban.

Alright, I'm fucking done.

I'm more than happy to hear reasonings from the anti-ban side, but when they're using arguments that have literally been stated and countered hundreds of times in this thread, the whole discussion becomes stale and akin to a broken record.

I'm not repeating this statement again:

Greninja does NOT have 4MSS.

When you team build, and you have
5 other pokemon already completed, you build your Greninja LAST! If your Pokemon cannot muscle past x, y or z, your Greninja then runs the coverage moves your team lacks, and he can do that with nearly every type of move except Fairy.

There seriously, seriously, seriously needs to be a pros and cons list set up in the OP so that the same statements are no longer stated in new posts so that the discussion can start gathering newer ideas, because this is starting to become repetitive.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Yes it's S rank no it's not broken thanks for summing it up :]

Here we go again. Stay with me here, I'm running through all of the Pokemon in the S and A ranks. OHKOs are bolded. Too lazy to get mega icons, so just go by what's said.

calcs

Landorus-T: Ice Beam - (200 - 236.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latios: Ice Beam - (142.8 - 168.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Metagross: Dark Pulse - (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thundurus: Ice Beam - (127.7 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Altaria: Ice Beam - (99 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Azumarill: Gunk Shot - (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bisharp: Low Kick - (166.1 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Charizard X: Hydro Pump - (74 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Clefable: Gunk Shot - (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Mega Gardevoir: Gunk Shot - (167.1 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Gallade: Gunk Shot - (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Gengar: Extrasensory - (134.6 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Aaaand that's all I have the patience for. Almost ALL of these top tier threats bar Mega Gallade are outspeed and then MURDERED by Greninja. Take a good look at this and run calcs on everything else and TELL me it's not broken. Greninja IS an unhealthy force in OU.

 

[WoHenRe]

Alright, I'm fucking done.

I'm more than happy to hear reasonings from the anti-ban side, but when they're using arguments that have literally been stated and countered hundreds of times in this thread, the whole discussion becomes stale and akin to a broken record.

I'm not repeating this statement again:

Greninja does NOT have 4MSS.

When you team build, and you have
5 other pokemon already completed, you build your Greninja LAST! If your Pokemon cannot muscle past x, y or z, your Greninja then runs the coverage moves your team lacks, and he can do that with nearly every type of move except Fairy.

There seriously, seriously, seriously needs to be a pros and cons list set up in the OP so that the same statements are no longer stated in new posts so that the discussion can start gathering newer ideas, because this is starting to become repetitive.

So, in other words, what you are trying to say is that it is predictable based on what its team mates are? If it is predictable, then it really loses most of the main reasons why everyone thinks it should be banned.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

So, in other words, what you are trying to say is that it is predictable based on what its team mates are? If it is predictable, then it really loses most of the main reasons why everyone thinks it should be banned.

It's not at all predictable based on what it's teammates are, also predictability can really go both ways, you might expect the other player to switch into a pokemon who can take the hit that and then die becasue of it or if you detect this you can KO Greninja

 

[Chaoswalker]

I agree with greninja's comparison to Genesect. The two had some similar problems of being too fast and too versatile, while holding offensive teams together. They are by no means the same, as Genesect was bulkier, and Greninja has much more offensive pressure in the moment. Still, I think we have a very similar situation of a pokemon that should be checked by certain things, but really isn't. They can certainly be played around by being smart, and you can definitely scout them. I was shocked to find Genesect banned because the Heatran I was using stood up against it so well. This did not mean Genesect was not bad for the game though, as Heatran was one of the very few checks available, and running HP ground blew it away. Heatran was by not at all a bad pokemon, but forcing everyone to run it in order to hold off Genesect was not making the meta any better. In the same way Greninja demands a dedicated counter even more so than Genesect, and which pokemon that is for your team varries greatly. Right now I have two Greninja checks on my team: Ferrothorn and specially defensive Rotom Wash. In fact, for any team to shut down all possible greninjas you need two checks to account for different hidden powers, much like how you needed Heatran AND Megasaur to stop Genesect.

While mixed offenses are a strong factor in S rank pokemon, (Like Latios and Thundurus I, and even the recent Keldeo) they are usually still checked by many A+/- rank pokemon either because of typing or sheer defensive ability. If you opt for a sneaky move like earthquake on Latios to break through heatran, you eliminate one problem and open yourself up to so many more. Greninja has no such problem. Because it has stab on everything, you have no obligation to run water/dark moves. The only reason to run hydropump is because it is Greninja's highest base power move from his highest offensive stat, NOT because he is a water type.

Landorus Therian is another pokemon that is used too much and holds teams together. You don't need a dedicated Landorus check though, meaning its presence on an enemy team is usually manageable by what you already have. The only time you find yourself singling out and eliminating Landorus is if it checks your sweeper. Clearly high presence of a pokemon is not the banworthy factor.

TLDR;
I'll end by saying Greninja is not unstoppable. It is 100% more manageable than Salamence, as it cannot just blast through everything by setting up. Any smart player with two soft checks can dance around this thing and take it down. The problem is that you must run two soft checks, or one dedicated hard check for this pokemon, not because it threatens your team but because it threatens all teams. If it stayed in the game we'd all manage, but I do think it is making things less fun.

 

[WoHenRe]

It's not at all predictable based on what it's teammates are

If you go by the logic that it should be built to counter what its team mates don't, and that most other pokemon are somewhat narrow in what they can or can't counter, you could reasonably guess a lot of what it is going to run.

 

[Rustyy]

All I see here are inexperienced battlers that fail to adapt to the new metagame so they just want this mon banned when it doesn't need to be.

Smogon 101.

 

[Maniacr]

A complex ban banning the use of Protean on Greninja would be so much easier. By not doing so, it's very clear that this suspect test is rigged. By refusing to think of the most obvious solution to the problem, that means there is no intention of giving it a fair chance. Since Torrent Greninja then it is obvious that Greninja itself is not the problem. The problem seems to be the use of Protean on Greninja. It's quite clear that Greninja will be banned regardless of the outcome of the vote.

 

[Cogito]

I really don't think people understand what a suspect test is for.

If look at the recent bans in NU (Pangoro and Mega Glalie) you can see that they weren't broken but they had a negative effects on the tier. Teams had to build around countering those two pokemon in a variety of ways. Were there pokemon that could check them? Absolutely but the issue was that they were too powerful to consistently be stopped.

Same can be said about Greninja. Greninja can OHKO or 2HKO a vast majority of the OU metagame. It's speed allows it to u-turn out when faced with a check and then be used later to wreak havoc. Tired of running certain pokes just to check greninja and having to have several buffers put in place in case it switches in safely. The pokemon has been problem from the beginning with its insane movepool, fantastic speed, amazing ability and unpredictable sets.

 

[Kodex]

In my humble opinion I'd have to admit, Greninja is a threat but not one you cannot check. Yes, it's true next to no things can counter it, but there are plenty of checks. It's a strong Pokemon in the OU meta but I think making it Ubers would only lower its usage. In ubers it'd only act as a spike setter with Scolipede doing this this job better with endeavor and Speed Boost. So all in all i'd say that the "banning" to ubers would clear the OU meta a bit but you cannot say that Greninja belongs in ubers, maybe an OU-Ubers borderline, but Ubers? Definitely not.

 

[Cogito]

All I see here are inexperienced battlers that fail to adapt to the new metagame so they just want this mon banned when it doesn't need to be.

Smogon 101.

You clearly don't understand what a suspect test is. If you aren't going to bring forth points to further your claim then leave the thread. You are just polluting the thread with mindless babble that has been said a thousand times.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

In my humble opinion I'd have to admit, Greninja is a threat but not one you cannot check. Yes, it's true next to no things can counter it, but there are plenty of checks. It's a strong Pokemon in the OU meta but I think making it Ubers would only lower its usage. In ubers it'd only act as a spike setter with Scolipede doing this this job better with endeavor and Speed Boost. So all in all i'd say that the "banning" to ubers would clear the OU meta a bit but you cannot say that Greninja belongs in ubers, maybe an OU-Ubers borderline, but Ubers? Definitely not.

Nobody really cares where Greninja ends up in Ubers. His performance in that tier has no effect on whether he should be banned or not.

 

[Charalambos]

I strongly believe that greninja has to stay to the tier. It gives a balance to OU. I think this video might help you to see that there are many ways to stop a greninja so it wont have to leave the tier.

 

[termi]

A complex ban banning the use of Protean on Greninja would be so much easier. By not doing so, it's very clear that this suspect test is rigged. By refusing to think of the most obvious solution to the problem, that means there is no intention of giving it a fair chance. Since Torrent Greninja then it is obvious that Greninja itself is not the problem. The problem seems to be the use of Protean on Greninja. It's quite clear that Greninja will be banned regardless of the outcome of the vote.

Let's also ban Seed Flare on Shaymin-S!!! And let's ban U-Turn on Genesect!!! Let's ban Speed Boost on Blaziken!!!

You see basically this will never work because you could ban any move or ability on any given Pokemon to make it not broken, but as a result you would get a clusterfuck of a meta where everything that seems to be getting the upper hand in the meta gets a specific move or ability banned from it. We only apply complex bans when a certain move, combination of moves or ability appears to be broken on a multitude of Pokemon.

Also, your comment about the suspect being rigged is the most hilarious thing I have read today so thank you for that.

 

[Maniacr]

I really don't think people understand what a suspect test is for.

If look at the recent bans in NU (Pangoro and Mega Glalie) you can see that they weren't broken but they had a negative effects on the tier. Teams had to build around countering those two pokemon in a variety of ways. Were there pokemon that could check them? Absolutely but the issue was that they were too powerful to consistently be stopped.

Same can be said about Greninja. Greninja can OHKO or 2HKO a vast majority of the OU metagame. It's speed allows it to u-turn out when faced with a check and then be used later to wreak havoc. Tired of running certain pokes just to check greninja and having to have several buffers put in place in case it switches in safely. The pokemon has been problem from the beginning with its insane movepool, fantastic speed, amazing ability and unpredictable sets.

Try that with Torrent and see how much damage it does. The use of Protean on Greninja is the issue. Greninja itself is not broken. In order to say it is broken you must take into account torrent. You are only looking at Protean. The issue is Protean Greninja broken? It is not a question of is Greninja broken.

Let's also ban Seed Flare on Shaymin-S!!! And let's ban U-Turn on Genesect!!! Let's ban Speed Boost on Blaziken!!!

You see basically this will never work because you could ban any move or ability on any given Pokemon to make it not broken, but as a result you would get a clusterfuck of a meta where everything that seems to be getting the upper hand in the meta gets a specific move or ability banned from it. We only apply complex bans when a certain move, combination of moves or ability appears to be broken on a multitude of Pokemon.

Also, your comment about the suspect being rigged is the most hilarious thing I have read today so thank you for that.

It can work and it should be done. The suspect test is misleading because Greninja is not broken or overcentralizing the metagame. It can't be broken because Protean is optional and overcentralizing were the problem then Ferrothorn would be banned. The issue should be is Protean Greninja broken. By refusing to suspect that, the suspect test is flawed. Therefore it's clear there's an agenda behind the suspect test like there was with Mega Gengar.