np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[Talpr0ne]

T
I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but I promise you, even if we ban Protean all together, that won't be enough to keep it in OU.

Actually not true. While Torrent Greninja isn't absolute garbage per se, it is not any better than something like Infernape(admittely a lot faster, but without any power on its physical moves). Probably on the viability thread it wouldn't be anything above B lol.
Banning Protean, considering the policy of Smogon, will never be a thing unless the ability becomes very widespread with most if not all its fully evolved users being broken because of it(think about Swift Swim+Drizzle in BW, it wouldn't have been banned altogheter if the problem was Kingdra only).

So that this post isn't completely useless, I feel to add that most faster Pokémon without boosts are Mega Evolutions. This isn't a good thing not only because of the increasing opportunity cost towards slower Mega Evolutions, but in particular because how the first turn mechanics works. It means that if your Manectric, Sceptile or whatever it is has not megaevolved yet you will not be able to revenge Greninja, as such you will have to resort on more "checks", put Protect/Fake Out on your mon or always lead with your Mega Evolutions, all of which are negative things for their own reasons.
Similarly, the defensive aspect of Protean can screw with you if you are resorting on priority. Say, Greninja has just used Gunk Shot, now you are no longer able to revenge kill it with Breloom until it stops being a Poison type; same for all the other priorities except normal/Aerialted Quick Attack and Gale Wings Brave Bird, as no viable Greninja move can allow it to resist these moves.

 

[havokchomp123]

What is defined as 4MSS? By definition, 4MSS means that something essentially requires more than four moves to do its job. Defensive Eeveelutions are a good example - they'd love to have all of Wish, Protect, Baton Pass for slow switches, Heal Bell and an attacking move, but they can't and have to drop either Baton Pass or Protect (usually Baton Pass), which makes them less effective overall (still useful, but not as useful as they would be otherwise). This is a very good analogy that Steel With It made and this aptly sums it up. Gren doesn't suffer from this.


This statement is actually false. This would only be the case if you are building a team around Gren. However, one rarely ever builds around Gren. If anything, it's the opposite. Greninja uses its offensive option to patch the team's issues.


Support wise, it falls under the characteristic of an Uber worthy mon. If Gren just had Protean and basic coverages, it wouldn't be such an issue. But the thing now is that Gren has not only Protean but flawless coverage coupled with an amazing speed tier. This allows it force it's checks out because you will always be in the "Does he carry this? Does he carry that". The problem with this results in heavy restrictions on team building. You are either forced to pack Scarfers on a more passively oriented team to not be broken down by Gren. Or you are forced to pack Passive mons on a more offensively oriented team to check Gren. And even when you "check" Gren, unless you are born with the ability to read minds, you can't 100% get Gren's moveset. This in itself makes your checks shaky because there is no standard Gren set that Gren will run. They have the flexibility of choice.


There is no reason for Gren to stay in for any of these scenarios. I don't understand why you would bring them up. If you want to use prediction as an argument, it will always work both ways. If he predicts your to spore, he Ice Beams. If he predicts you to seed/mach then, he switches. This is a really invalid statement.


So how is this a Greninja is not ban worthy argument? Blaziken was a fan favorite as well. Let's take a look at where he is now.


This is very true. However, in the case of Greninja, it is different for the sole fact that he has an insane speed tier. The speed tier means that he has more flexibility in his choices whereas the opponent is in a back foot. Let's say you switch in Scizor or Ferro, expecting a Gunk Shot. And you get it right. Does that mean you an stay in and dish something back out at him? No. Because he still has the possibility of running Low Kick or HP Fire. The thing about him is that he has that godly unboosted speed tier that gives him strong pivoting potential and ability. And with that speed, he is backed up by Protean Life Orb boosted coverages. That itself, eases a lot of pressure on the Gren user because he now has the momentum. You see where I am getting at?


Why on earth would anyone let their Gren obviously get statused. The thing about Gren, is that it has the capability of masking what it truly aims to do (like a ninja) and with that insane speed tier, it allows him to be an amazing momentum grabbing mon since the mere sight of him on the opposing team will cause you to play your Gren checks carefully. And once your Gren checks are worn down, Gren's job becomes either much more easier or completed.


Gren is more comparable to Deoxys-S imo. If Hydreigon had 123 base speed, believe me when I say it WILL get the ban.

Greninja does have 4MMS, as it can't effectively destroy entire teams without having 5 moves. Greninja is effective with 4 moves, but so are plenty of pokemon with 4MMS. If greninja had flawless coverage it would be able to counter porygon2 and tentacruel, but it can't. By the way people those are viable and great mons in the OU tier, unlike pokemon such as weezing and Arcanine!

Also I brought up those pokemon to show that Greninja is stopped by plenty of pokemon and losing the momentum is huge. It creates mind games for both the player using Greninja and the opponent. That means the opponent has to use analysis and skill to determine what route the opponent might take and what route can yield the best results. While the player using Greninja may have "flexibility of choice" each one comes with it's own risks. Meaning that you have to use certain pokemon to support the set you use, limiting the player using Greninja in the team building options.

And I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, the fact that people like Greninja will "Influence the vote and not guarantee Greninja's safety in the OU Tier!!!!!!" I don't how much it will influence the vote but it will be a factor in how the votes will turn out. It's not going to guarantee Greninja will remain "Unbanned" but if Greninja remains in the OU tier, then I guarantee you that Greninja's fanbase will be a factor toward this.

Also, your forgetting that Greninja may not carry HP fire. Based on Greninja's other moves and team, the opponent needs to use analysis and determine if that Greninja has HP fire. If they figure out it doesn't and it turns out it did, then it is either the fault of the player or there is a flaw in the Greninja or how the team is built. Everything has a weaknesses.

Of course the opponent isn't going to let their greninja get statused, why would they. However, with proper prediction and skill, if the opponent is able to pull off a paralysis on to the greninja, that greninja is screwed.

Finally I don't see how greninja is comparable to Deo S. Second base 122 speed. third, I brought up Hydreigon because it was a pokemon that had no counters in Gen. V. However, it's speed is what held it back. Greninja is in a similar situation; however, it's lack of bulk and 4MMS is what is holding it back.


Also people lets just drop this whole argument about protean Greninja and what Recreat said.

 

[AM]

Greninja does have 4MMS, as it can't effectively destroy entire teams without having 5 moves. Greninja is effective with 4 moves, but so are plenty of pokemon with 4MMS. If greninja had flawless coverage it would be able to counter porygon2 and tentacruel, but it can't. By the way people those are viable and great mons in the OU tier, unlike pokemon such as weezing and Arcanine!

No one is implying that it destroys entire teams. We're implying that it destroys many balanced cores and with its versatility provides detrimental aspects in treambuilding and in OU. No it doesn't have 4MSS. If you had read any posts addressing this you would come to understand this or at least wouldn't say such a thing so easily. You're looking at Greninja through a vacuum implying that it doesn't have the team support and the tools necessary to invalidate so much of the tier at the moment. It doesn't change the fact that these options are there along with its fantastic speed tier. Also Porygon2 and Tentacruel are not great mons in OU with the former being downright mediocre if not terrible to use on so many builds. Porygon2's usage can basically be considered by the presence of Greninja.

Also I brought up those pokemon to show that Greninja is stopped by plenty of pokemon and losing the momentum is huge. It creates mind games for both the player using Greninja and the opponent. That means the opponent has to use analysis and skill to determine what route the opponent might take and what route can yield the best results. While the player using Greninja may have "flexibility of choice" each one comes with it's own risks. Meaning that you have to use certain pokemon to support the set you use, limiting the player using Greninja in the team building options.

How is providing such minimal support an issue? It gives the advantage to players using Greninja because of all the versatility it packs along with the mind games that come with it. The fact that it can lure traditional checks to one set and then eliminating them later on is a complete advantage for the player using it and a disadvantage for the one who has to put up with it. The flexibility of choice outweighs the risk tremendously and this can be seen through practice instead of the million theorymons I've been reading.

And I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, the fact that people like Greninja will "Influence the vote and not guarantee Greninja's safety in the OU Tier!!!!!!" I don't how much it will influence the vote but it will be a factor in how the votes will turn out. It's not going to guarantee Greninja will remain "Unbanned" but if Greninja remains in the OU tier, then I guarantee you that Greninja's fanbase will be a factor toward this.

Can't even comment on this cause I don't have a single clue what you're implying or how this is even relevant.

Also, your forgetting that Greninja may not carry HP fire. Based on Greninja's other moves and team, the opponent needs to use analysis and determine if that Greninja has HP fire. If they figure out it doesn't and it turns out it did, then it is either the fault of the player or there is a flaw in the Greninja or how the team is built. Everything has a weaknesses.

You're forgetting that it can run HP Fire. Let's not assume that we're the next coming of Jesus when it comes to prediction skills and mind games. The prediction argument goes both ways and making this grand assumption that analysis and looking at team preview to know 100% what Greninja runs is preposterous. This last point doesn't even make sense either especially in Greninjas case where you're spending your time scouting its moveset while it's doing the damage necessary to make your builds a liability.

Of course the opponent isn't going to let their greninja get statused, why would they. However, with proper prediction and skill, if the opponent is able to pull off a paralysis on to the greninja, that greninja is screwed.

Again, this goes both ways. The best part about this read is that if its the Spikes set and it's already laid down a Spike it's not getting paralyzed by Thunder Wave. Your claims of proper prediction and skill is clearly from a theorymon standpoint and not one from a practical one if you failed to emphasize how it's both players on the prediction side of things and not one.

Finally I don't see how greninja is comparable to Deo S. Second base 122 speed. third, I brought up Hydreigon because it was a pokemon that had no counters in Gen. V. However, it's speed is what held it back. Greninja is in a similar situation; however, it's lack of bulk and 4MMS is what is holding it back.

It's comparable in the sense that you won't be sure of what it runs until it's too late. Not exactly sure how Hydreigon even applies to this situation when the two clearly have different roles where Greninja's is clearly more dangerous at this point in time. Something that doesn't have counters doesn't necessarily mean it's broken while something that does have counters doesn't necessarily mean it's not broken. The bulk factor of Greninja is irrelevant when it's a cleaner in the first place with the added power of Life Orb and STAB on every attack to boot. Already elaborated on the 4MSS and tons of people already addressed this in former posts so go ahead and read those.

 

[zbr]

Greninja does have 4MMS, as it can't effectively destroy entire teams without having 5 moves. Greninja is effective with 4 moves, but so are plenty of pokemon with 4MMS. If greninja had flawless coverage it would be able to counter porygon2 and tentacruel, but it can't. By the way people those are viable and great mons in the OU tier, unlike pokemon such as weezing and Arcanine!
Finally I don't see how greninja is comparable to Deo S. Second base 122 speed. third, I brought up Hydreigon because it was a pokemon that had no counters in Gen. V. However, it's speed is what held it back. Greninja is in a similar situation; however, it's lack of bulk and 4MMS is what is holding it back.

Not going to say much since AM already discussed most of what I wanted to say. However I want to emhasize that no one from the Pro Ban side sees Greninja as a "destroyer of entire teams". We see him as a mon that severely restricts team building (due to his coverage + speed and options) and forces us to use our beyond godlike clairvoyance in matches involving Greninja. Prediction is an invalid argument since it can go both ways. Please stop using "analysis and prediction" as a counter argument.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

so only 1 out of every 8 Greninja actually runs Low Kick. This is very reassuring because it really shows what we should actually be scared of.
There are only six moves with usage above 10% which really makes him not much more versatile than other offensive threats in OU.
This is based on raw data of actual usage.

We should not ban Greninja based on what it has the potential to do. The data shows that Greninja in relevant use isn't that varied after all...

You have to remember that "usage isn't equivalent to viability" can apply to both mons and moves. If players only adjust to the moves with the highest usage, good players will simply start using the lower usage attacks to lure in would-be checks and counters and nail them. The same issue was brought up during the Mega Salamence discussion when people were arguing that most players were only using the 2 attacks + DD + Roost set, so you only needed to prepare for that set. In reality this doesn't actually work because so long as the lower usage move sets are reasonably viable, there is no reason why a player can't start using them, thus there is no reason why they should be discounted during team building or battling.

 

[havokchomp123]

No one is implying that it destroys entire teams. We're implying that it destroys many balanced cores and with its versatility provides detrimental aspects in treambuilding and in OU. No it doesn't have 4MSS. If you had read any posts addressing this you would come to understand this or at least wouldn't say such a thing so easily. You're looking at Greninja through a vacuum implying that it doesn't have the team support and the tools necessary to invalidate so much of the tier at the moment. It doesn't change the fact that these options are there along with its fantastic speed tier. Also Porygon2 and Tentacruel are not great mons in OU with the former being downright mediocre if not terrible to use on so many builds. Porygon2's usage can basically be considered by the presence of Greninja.


How is providing such minimal support an issue? It gives the advantage to players using Greninja because of all the versatility it packs along with the mind games that come with it. The fact that it can lure traditional checks to one set and then eliminating them later on is a complete advantage for the player using it and a disadvantage for the one who has to put up with it. The flexibility of choice outweighs the risk tremendously and this can be seen through practice instead of the million theorymons I've been reading.


Can't even comment on this cause I don't have a single clue what you're implying or how this is even relevant.


You're forgetting that it can run HP Fire. Let's not assume that we're the next coming of Jesus when it comes to prediction skills and mind games. The prediction argument goes both ways and making this grand assumption that analysis and looking at team preview to know 100% what Greninja runs is preposterous. This last point doesn't even make sense either especially in Greninjas case where you're spending your time scouting its moveset while it's doing the damage necessary to make your builds a liability.


Again, this goes both ways. The best part about this read is that if its the Spikes set and it's already laid down a Spike it's not getting paralyzed by Thunder Wave. Your claims of proper prediction and skill is clearly from a theorymon standpoint and not one from a practical one if you failed to emphasize how it's both players on the prediction side of things and not one.


It's comparable in the sense that you won't be sure of what it runs until it's too late. Not exactly sure how Hydreigon even applies to this situation when the two clearly have different roles where Greninja's is clearly more dangerous at this point in time. Something that doesn't have counters doesn't necessarily mean it's broken while something that does have counters doesn't necessarily mean it's not broken. The bulk factor of Greninja is irrelevant when it's a cleaner in the first place with the added power of Life Orb and STAB on every attack to boot. Already elaborated on the 4MSS and tons of people already addressed this in former posts so go ahead and read those.

You are misinterpreting my points here. I do remember greninja can run HP fire, but that also means it has to take up one of it's moveslots with it. And yes I am aware that prediction can go both ways, but that is what competitive battling is, it's a game of prediction and I don't blame Greninja for it. Also the OU tier is very restricted in team building; with or withour Greninja. Also tentacruel and Porygon2 are not shit mons nor unviable mons otherwise they wouldn't have recieved OU analysis. And all of you are complaining that greninja is causing you to predict a lot when clearly that is what pokemon is about. If you fail at a prediction it was your fault and getting better at it will only make you a better player. I've lost countless times due to prediction to some of the same pokemon such as landorus, Charizard X, Mega pinsir, etc., because I mispredicted every single time, yet I realized that this was my fault. Greninja is no different, and there has always been a way around it. There are probably plenty of ways you can stop Greninja that involves bringing in pokemon from lower tiers; although, they do have to be viable mons of course. Also I never said that you will always know 100% of the time what Greninja runs; however you can make a strong hypothesis.

 

[jtal2000]

Greninja is not a sweeping poke with team support. It is THE BEST support to a team. It is easy to fit on and it chooses what it beats. Say it's a MLopunny/MGallade. Don't need to run low kick because they deal with those. But you do need to beat azu. Gunk shot. It picks what can counter it, and those pokes are usually dealt with by the sweeper it supports. Ban the frog

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

You are misinterpreting my points here. I do remember greninja can run HP fire, but that also means it has to take up one of it's moveslots with it. And yes I am aware that prediction can go both ways, but that is what competitive battling is, it's a game of prediction and I don't blame Greninja for it. Also the OU tier is very restricted in team building; with or withour Greninja. Also tentacruel and Porygon2 are not shit mons nor unviable mons otherwise they wouldn't have recieved OU analysis. And all of you are complaining that greninja is causing you to predict a lot when clearly that is what pokemon is about. If you fail at a prediction it was your fault and getting better at it will only make you a better player. I've lost countless times due to prediction to some of the same pokemon such as landorus, Charizard X, Mega pinsir, etc., because I mispredicted every single time, yet I realized that this was my fault. Greninja is no different, and there has always been a way around it. There are probably plenty of ways you can stop Greninja that involves bringing in pokemon from lower tiers; although, they do have to be viable mons of course. Also I never said that you will always know 100% of the time what Greninja runs; however you can make a strong hypothesis.

It's still apparent you don't really understand what 4MSS is. But addressing another point you made, sure Mega Zard X, Mega Pinsir, and Landorus are all really powerful pokes, but in the case of Zard X, there are many viable scarfers that cut sweeps short, in addition to several walls able to wall its attacks. Mega Pinsir has ONE set, and as powerful as it is you know exactly what its moveset is. In the case of landorus, therian form needs a scarf to be fast, while incarnate doesn't have the base speed that greninja does, nor nearly as many coverage options. For Zard X, you might be thinking along the same lines that every other pro-ban user in this thread has said for greninja: it simply switches out on the revenge killer. However, in the case of Zard X, if it switches out at +1 it probably just lost any chance for it to sweep the other team.

none of the pokes you mentioned have the same unpredictability, coverage, and raw speed that greninja has. And as a result of these things it's much harder to teambuild around it. And saying "you can make a strong hypothesis" about what greninja carries is not actually easy because greninja does not necessarily 'need' a single one of its common choices, outside of maybe ice beam. Greninja loses none of its effectiveness by running any of its other coverage choices, so there are numerous possibilities for what it might be running. It's not at all like dragonite, for example, where it might be either running eq or fire punch.

 

[adamsoreos]

You are misinterpreting my points here. I do remember greninja can run HP fire, but that also means it has to take up one of it's moveslots with it. And yes I am aware that prediction can go both ways, but that is what competitive battling is, it's a game of prediction and I don't blame Greninja for it. Also the OU tier is very restricted in team building; with or withour Greninja. Also tentacruel and Porygon2 are not shit mons nor unviable mons otherwise they wouldn't have recieved OU analysis. And all of you are complaining that greninja is causing you to predict a lot when clearly that is what pokemon is about. If you fail at a prediction it was your fault and getting better at it will only make you a better player. I've lost countless times due to prediction to some of the same pokemon such as landorus, Charizard X, Mega pinsir, etc., because I mispredicted every single time, yet I realized that this was my fault. Greninja is no different, and there has always been a way around it. There are probably plenty of ways you can stop Greninja that involves bringing in pokemon from lower tiers; although, they do have to be viable mons of course. Also I never said that you will always know 100% of the time what Greninja runs; however you can make a strong hypothesis.

The thing is though, you are turning Greninja's no ban argument against itself by supporting predictions.
Having to force 50/50s while determining Greninja's moveset is NOT an effective anti-ban argument. All it does is prove how unpredictable Greninja is.
If you are to say prediction is needed to better a player, you are again wrong as you never know what your opponent may do. Predictions are simply hypothesis, there is no simple way to know what your opponent will do with Greninja such as attack, switch out, or lay down hazards. If prediction were a valid argument, there would be a chance that Mega-Mawile could still occupy a space in the OU tier.

Also, no, Greninja does not have 4MSS. The fact that you say it needs team support, well of course it does. It's 4 moves are designed to hit ITS counters or ITS TEAM'S counters. Heck, even Charizard X faces counters with Quagsire if his team doesn't counter Quagsire for it. Greninja can be on a team where several weaknesses can be seen. However, with Greninja, a player can then tailor its movepool to whatever it is weak too, creating unpredictability against whatever checks you had for Greninja barring Porygon-2 and Chansey. (BTW, Porygon-2 is not viable in OU due to its lack of true offensive presence, rampant Knock Off users, and sheer amount of wallbreakers).

 

[Jarrod]

Hi everyone. Having just gone through the suspect ladder and achieved the reqs to vote, there are a few things I would like to put out there. (Reqs evidence below for safe keeping; see number 7).


Perhaps the most common anti-ban sentiment is that Greninja does in fact have checks and counters. This argument has weight only when arguing against players who insist that Greninja is an unstoppable juggernaut, which he is not. He is however a pokemon with incredible offensive capabilities (duh) and very obscure checks/counters. Porygon2 is frequently brought up, and yes he does come in on all Greninja sets and can T-wave (or do whatever the hell else you want it to do). But no one wants to pack Porygon2 just to handle Greninja, and I understand that. Tentacruel is yet another potential switch-in (unless extrasensory), but is yet another defensive pokemon. I happened to use both Porygon2 and Tentacruel to achieve reqs, along with the other members of a team I designed.

But I would like to emphasise that I used Porygon2 and Tentacruel in ORAS to check a variety of pokemon and retaliate effectively. Namely, I use Porygon2 to check and counter Mega-Metagross. In the replay below you can see Porygon2 doing it's job wonderfully (sticking up for him quickly because he's received a lot of hate :P).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-197208083

It is important to note that the suspect ladder does NOT have Greninja roaming about. If it did, the effectiveness of Porygon2 and tentacruel would have been short-lived. These pokemon are required (on my team anyways) to check various powerhouses of the OU metagame, including Greninja. But they can't do everything; Greninja simply launches attacks their way, gets a poison/flinch/extrasensory here and there, and then my balanced team cannot function. No, I am not arguing that because I find Greninja difficult, it needs to be banned. I am simply pointing out that Greninja's checks/counters need to perform other roles in order to be effective on a team. With Greninja around, it's almost like those pokemon are trapped and constantly trying to stay healthy due to Greninja fear. Win or lose, that is not a healthy way to play when Greninja can do so much to almost every other pokemon.

Prior to laddering, I was against banning Greninja (based on Fragility, ability to revenge and various other sentimental reasons that have no relevance here). However, after laddering, I realise that without Greninja, there is finally some breathing room for balanced teams (such as mine) and most likely a number of other play-styles. From what I know and have experienced, Greninja's effect on the metagame has been mostly negative. It's counters are obscure and can usually be worn down by mildly intelligent team-building. Whilst it does not compare to the OP-ness of M-Kangaskan or Genesect (at least in my mind anyways), it's presence in the meta seems unhealthy. Of course, I still have 6 days to make a decision but the general vibe of this thread suggests that Ninja will probably be leaving us.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

You are misinterpreting my points here. I do remember greninja can run HP fire, but that also means it has to take up one of it's moveslots with it.

So? If your team has 3 mons with fighting moves or coverage, it's not like you need Low Kick. If your team has 3 mons that single-handedly destroy every Fairy in the tier, you don't need Gunk Shot. If a move on Greninja helps patch up your team's weaknesses, it's not a wasted moveslot and thus should not be treated as one.

And yes I am aware that prediction can go both ways, but that is what competitive battling is, it's a game of prediction and I don't blame Greninja for it.

As you said, it goes both ways. The issue is that people try using it as an anti-ban argument, but if it goes both ways why is it an anti-ban argument? If it goes both ways why should it help any one argument?

Also the OU tier is very restricted in team building; with or withour Greninja.

Most of the mons in OU don't have a built-in movepool that let it circumvent nearly all of its counters without carrying a move that is dead weight, and obviously every tier is restrictive in team building, and yet every usage-based tier have something that's banned. So, why should this factor in Greninja not being banned?

Also tentacruel and Porygon2 are not shit mons nor unviable mons otherwise they wouldn't have recieved OU analysis.

Honestly, no one with a good pro-ban argument has ever brought up the usage of either of these mons as an argument. As a pro-banner who has read the OU Viability thread, I know that these two mons do more than check Greninja. The issue isn't that a lot of his checks are bad. As many have stated, the issue is that most of them are either freakishly passive walls or super fast frail mons. Tentacruel and Porygon2 aren't garbage mons, but they definitely don't work on Balanced teams, the ones that pro-banners are arguing are being severely threatened by Greninja.

And all of you are complaining that greninja is causing you to predict a lot when clearly that is what pokemon is about. If you fail at a prediction it was your fault and getting better at it will only make you a better player. I've lost countless times due to prediction to some of the same pokemon such as landorus, Charizard X, Mega pinsir, etc., because I mispredicted every single time, yet I realized that this was my fault. Greninja is no different, and there has always been a way around it.

While I probably shouldn't have to address this since this boils down to a "git gud" argument, I will do so anyway. Are you honestly saying that every person who predicted wrong is a bad player? Because most of us can tell you that we've been in situations where there was no right call, and saying that we were worse players because we made wrong calls is ridiculous. Sometimes there isn't a right call, and Greninja has a tendency to create situations where the user is at far less risk if a wrong call is made than the player facing it due to the resulting blast to the face (much like Aegislash). More importantly, you are once again trying to argue that prediction goes both ways and yet use it as an anti-ban argument. I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If prediction goes both ways, NO side should be able to use it as an argument.

There are probably plenty of ways you can stop Greninja that involves bringing in pokemon from lower tiers; although, they do have to be viable mons of course. Also I never said that you will always know 100% of the time what Greninja runs; however you can make a strong hypothesis.

You can make a strong hypothesis and find out you were wrong because mid-battle you got a set wrong. I don't know how much information you seem to gather from every mon at team preview, but not every mon is so predictable that you can gather every move and item from entire teams at team preview. As you said, you can make a strong guess but it's no substitute for proper scouting, and scouting something that knocks just about every non-wall into 2HKO range is much easier said than done. Also, tell me about this magic solution of using lower tier mons, because last I check most of everything that was C+ or lower on the viability ranking that can handle Greninja is a freakishly passive wall or a frail Scarfer that has to pray that you got your prediction right.

 

[Alfalfa]

Many people keep arguing that Greninja has 4MSS. However, it could also be argued that Greninja can simply choose what it wants to beat for its team. Considering that Greninja gets STAB on every attack it uses, courtesy of Protean, Greninja's moveslots can be tailored to whatever a team needs.

 

[Raikaria]

Many people keep arguing that Greninja has 4MSS. However, it could also be argued that Greninja can simply choose what it wants to beat for its team. Considering that Greninja gets STAB on every attack it uses, courtesy of Protean, Greninja's moveslots can be tailored to whatever a team needs.

To elaborate on this:

4MSS is when a pokemon WANTS or NEEDS to run more moves to do it's job, but cannot. An example would be Dragonite. Dragonite would give it's wings to run Roost/Dragon Dance/Earthquake/Outrage/Extremespeed. But it can't. And missing any of those moves is a massive issue for Dragonite. Either it loses reliable recovery and renewal of Multiscale, it losdes set-up ability, it loses coverage or it loses priority. Ferrothron also suffers 4MMS. Stealth Rock/Spikes/Leech Seed/Protect/Gyro Ball/Power Whip. You have to drop something.

Greninja's job is to revenge kill or clean up certain threats. It is not a sweeper. It is a lynchpin. Greninja does not suffer 4MSS because Greninja's movepool is tailored to what his team needs him to take down. Why would a team running, say, Birdspam, need Greninja to run Extrasensory to deal with Fighting types and Poison types? Flying types destroy most Poison types and are SE vs Fighting, and a lot of Grasses are part Poison. Sure, Greninja would like to run Hydro Pump/Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/Gunk Shot/Low Kick/So On. But it doesn't NEED to do this to do the job it is on the team for most effectively.

4MSS is most prevalent on defensive/support pokemon or set-up sweepers. Greninja is a utility pokemon who tailors his moveset to his team. He doesn't suffer 4MSS anywhere near as bad as some other pokemon.

Also Greninja's job makes it pretty hard to tell if it is broken or not. Going by the old Gen 4 characteristics, what Greninja is suspected for is the hardest reason to quantify; it's not too good on Offense, it's too good at blasting holes in the structure of the enemy team to allow something else to sweep easily, aka: The support characteristic. I lean towards the opinion that it is too good, but it's close. Like, if it's special attack was 5 or 10 lower it would be fine IMO.

 

[ohgeedubs]

I just made reqs, so I guess I'll post my thoughts on Ninja even though it's kinda late in the thread.

I'm just going to reiterate something regarding stealth rock paraphrased loosely from things jpw234/Reymedy were talking about. In a metagame where both Defog and Stealth Rock are rampant, Greninja has the potential to thrive against every single playstyle except for maybe magic bounce sableye stall. Supposing you don't have Mega Sableye, hazards for both sides essentially make it a game of chicken of who defogs first and needs it gone more. Alternatively, you can run no defog and run a bunch of mons not particularly weak to stealth rock. Fine.

The thing about Greninja is that it's insane coverage and even momentum-carrying abilities (certain wincons have to be switched out, or it can even run u-turn, a highly underrated option), as well as good matchup vs. literally all the relevant defoggers and potentially even spinners for that matter, make the effects of hazards that much more insane to deal with when you have to deal with Protean STAB on the switch, and potentially a second hit if you're not bulky enough.

If you ARE bulky enough, then you generally lose momentum as you have to heal (or you switch out and your check is weakened) and didn't get rid of the hazards since greninja murks all the defoggers. If you switch in but can revenge kill, you're probably scarf and your attack or decision becomes either telegraphed or insanely risky.

If your team is dependent on defog, then Ninja is consistently threatening even if your opponent just clicks the most obvious moves with Ninja. Alternatively, if your team is not very weak to rocks and doesn't have a defogger, then it's generally weak to spikes, which - let's not forget - ninja and friends can also run and abuse for momentum. If both teams have defoggers but are not particularly weak to stealth rock, then there's a good chance using the same strategy as you: force the opponent to defog, and use Greninja yourself. Yay speed ties.

So to recap, to make Greninja really threatening, you need:
1) Pokemon that beat what it can't beat.
2) Stealth Rock.
3) That's it.

Which, again, every pokemon NEEDS, but doesn't necessarily thrive from in the same way Greninja does.

In my opinion, the thing that makes Greninja stupid is not that it has no counters, but it's ability to actualize momentum with hazards in this way probably better than any other pokemon, force you make a guess as to what it's coverage is or sac a mon in order to regain momentum or rid of hazards, and punish you severely if you guessed wrong.

I'm not saying it can't beaten, yea? You can remove by force with certain pursuiters (if you force them into certain situations or pursuiter is scarf), you can run stall, you can be really smart and "know" what their coverage probably is by analyzing their team, tenta has risen from the depths to make its life harder, Ninja cannot reliably get momentum on HO without being punished, and overall it never 6-0s teams... but despite the meta adapting to its presence, it's still crazy effective at what it does and warped the way the game is played, in my opinion, in an unhealthy direction.

 

[teamsnickers]

here's some facts not opinions on greninja take from it what you want Im not saying if I want it banned or not

• 4 move syndrome
• average 103 special attack
• protean one of if not the best ability's in the game cancels out the average 103 special attack making its power more threatening
• amazing coverage
• speed over 120
• 72/67/71 bulk
• creates momentum on almost all teams
• life orb or expert belt is what most run, these items maximize the potential protean brings but life orb brings recoil to a already frail greninja leaving it open to priory and scarfs even more

Take from this what you want just some basic facts on greninja that you should consider before making your decision

everyone has a opinion and justifications for it but before making a assumption be sure that you aren't fabricating things one way or another

 

[Alfalfa]

• 4 move syndrome

I just rebuked this point, saying that it is only a manner of what Greninja wants to beat. I personally think Raikaria 's post elaborated on my argument better than I have, but if you are going to still argue that it has 4MSS, at least challenge my point, because people are really using the 4MSS argument as though they were beating a dead horse.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

here's some facts not opinions on greninja take from it what you want Im not saying if I want it banned or not

• 4 move syndrome
• average 103 special attack
• protean one of if not the best ability's in the game cancels out the average 103 special attack making its power more threatening
• amazing coverage
• speed over 120
• 72/67/71 bulk
• creates momentum on almost all teams
• life orb or expert belt is what most run, these items maximize the potential protean brings but life orb brings recoil to a already frail greninja leaving it open to priory and scarfs even more

Take from this what you want just some basic facts on greninja that you should consider before making your decision

everyone has a opinion and justifications for it but before making a assumption be sure that you aren't fabricating things one way or another

Fair enough, I understand your point to not just recklessly choose, but plenty of people have explained why greninja doesn't have 4MSS, and its lack of bulk doesn't impede it in any way. And hopefully a greninja user wouldn't be dumb enough to leave it in against a scarfer/priority early in a match

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Greninja isn't necessarily that vulnerable to status - it can use Spikes, HP Fire, Grass Knot and Gunk Shot to fend off most attempts at causing status problems. It's correct that you'll need to predict that status, but there's that.

This is a highly unreasonable way to fend off status, particularly Thunder Wave, the move that ruins Greninja's most. Greninja's barely runs spikes anyway, and cannot afford to in general (You're already choosing between Gunk Shot, Hydro, D Pulse, Ice Beam, HP Grass, HP Fire, Grass Knot, and Low Kick), which leaves Greninja's still incredibly vulnerable to thunder wave, especially from prankster users such as Thunderus and Klefki.

 

[Swagodile]

Greninja's barely runs spikes anyway, and cannot afford to in general

Greninja can afford to run whatever its teammates need.

If there's no other Spiker on the team, Greninja can use it.

The only move Greninja really NEEDS to run is Ice Beam. Its other three slots can be used for whatever its teammates need. If for example, Mega Metagross is on the team, then it can forego Gunk Shot, since Metagross can handle the fairies.

 

[chimpact]

Gunk shot is still a very powerful move; it's not only for fairy types. Even with little investment it's capable of 2hko'g bulkier fighting types.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 183-216 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 175-208 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is notable because protean works both offensively and defensively. Turning itself into a poison type allows you to eat up mach punch.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 52-62 (18.2 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

it 2hkos raikou and bliss (30% chance without factoring potential poisons and misses)

 

[pretty little liAr]

On the fence with this one.
Greninja is the best pokemkn in Ou without a doubt and it can revenge kill every pokemkn in the game with the appropriate Attack. It has a excellent speed tier, which allows it to outpace the eon twins, mega Metagross, mega Gallade etc etc. Also, similar to landerus Therian, you literally loose nothing when slapping it on your team. You might as well just throw a Greninja on every team you make as it always puts in work (assuming your good at using it). However, it can't take it hit unless it's weak and resisted, and can get revenged easily by strong priority and scarfers. It also does have the case of the 4mss but since Greninja gets to "pick" it's counters it can simply adjust its team mates to deal with what gives it trouble.
Also, please stop saying its horrible in ubers, as that is a lie.
It's pretty good (at least for me) and it deserves more credit then your letting on.
After reading this a few times... Ban greninja

 

[Eldrake]

For those who still thinks that Greninja doesn't hit hard (for some reason), I'd like to point out that thanks to Protean, its special attacks effectively hits as hard as Deoxys-A with everything except Psychic type moves.

No seriously.
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 222-264 (65.1 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Deoxys-A Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only difference here is a few points of damage.

 

[CallMeSerious]

On the fence with this one.
Greninja is the best pokemkn in Ou without a doubt and it can revenge kill every pokemkn in the game with the appropriate Attack. It has a excellent speed tier, which allows it to outpace the eon twins, mega Metagross, mega Gallade etc etc. Also, similar to landerus Therian, you literally loose nothing when slapping it on your team. You might as well just throw a Greninja on every team you make as it always puts in work (assuming your good at using it). However, it can't take it hit unless it's weak and resisted, and can get revenged easily by strong priority and scarfers. It also does have the case of the 4mss but since Greninja gets to "pick" it's counters it can simply adjust its team mates to deal with what gives it trouble.
Also, please stop saying its horrible in ubers, as that is a lie.
It's pretty good (at least for me) and it deserves more credit then your letting on.

First: it doesn't matter whether or not it's horrible in Ubers. As long as it's broken in OU, it should go to Ubers. Ubers may be a tier now, but it's not a usage based tier like the rest of them.

Second: it really is pretty bad in Ubers. The only real niche for Greninja there is that it's the only viable user of Toxic Spikes that can learn Taunt to shut down Defog AND Spinblock via Protean Shadow Sneak. Protean boosts can only carry its 95/103 attacking stats so far in a meta where ~700 bst titans roam free.

Now here's my two cents. There are no flawless Pokemon. Just by saying "this Pokemon has these flaws" or "this Pokemon can be dealt with in this way" isn't a good argument against banning it. I think these questions must be asked to deem a Pokemon broken or not for a meta:

1. To what extent does it force specific counters/checks? By specific, it means a counter/check that achieves little or nothing else other than checking/countering this Pokemon.

2. To what extent does it limit team variety? If a single team archetype becomes borderline unusable because of it, then that's not what we want for a healthy metagame.

The bottom line is: does having this Pokemon around make the meta more or less interesting? Back when OR/AS first came out, Ubers was like "whoever gets to set up Mega Rayquaza first wins". And then mray was gone. OU now is kinda similar: "I have this as a check to Greninja. Hopefully he doesn't run the following 'coverage' moves. If he doesn't, we can continue. If he does, well RIP." To me, both scenarios sound really uninteresting, and it's my opinion that Greninja should be banned.

 

[pretty little liAr]

First: it doesn't matter whether or not it's horrible in Ubers. As long as it's broken in OU, it should go to Ubers. Ubers may be a tier now, but it's not a usage based tier like the rest of them.

Second: it really is pretty bad in Ubers. The only real niche for Greninja there is that it's the only viable user of Toxic Spikes that can learn Taunt to shut down Defog AND Spinblock via Protean Shadow Sneak. Protean boosts can only carry its 95/103 attacking stats so far in a meta where ~700 bst titans roam free.

Now here's my two cents. There are no flawless Pokemon. Just by saying "this Pokemon has these flaws" or "this Pokemon can be dealt with in this way" isn't a good argument against banning it. I think these questions must be asked to deem a Pokemon broken or not for a meta:

1. To what extent does it force specific counters/checks? By specific, it means a counter/check that achieves little or nothing else other than checking/countering this Pokemon.

2. To what extent does it limit team variety? If a single team archetype becomes borderline unusable because of it, then that's not what we want for a healthy metagame.

The bottom line is: does having this Pokemon around make the meta more or less interesting? Back when OR/AS first came out, Ubers was like "whoever gets to set up Mega Rayquaza first wins". And then mray was gone. OU now is kinda similar: "I have this as a check to Greninja. Hopefully he doesn't run the following 'coverage' moves. If he doesn't, we can continue. If he does, well RIP." To me, both scenarios sound really uninteresting, and it's my opinion that Greninja should be banned.

I... don't think you got the message of the post.
The toxic spikes set is pretty good, as it can set up a rare type of entry hazard, taunt other leads quickly due to good speed, and one shot xerneas with gunk shot. I agree that it should be banned. And I was not saying it should not be banned because it is mediocre in ubers. If my post was unclear and did not explain where I stand in this argument then I apologize for the inconvenience.

 

[insanelegend]

I... don't think you got the message of the post.
The toxic spikes set is pretty good, as it can set up a rare type of entry hazard, taunt other leads quickly due to good speed, and one shot xerneas with gunk shot. I agree that it should be banned. And I was not saying it should not be banned because it is mediocre in ubers. If my post was unclear and did not explain where I stand in this argument then I apologize for the inconvenience.

Just because something is medicore in Ubers doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned in OU. We are trying to do what is best for the metagame, not make sure a pokemon can preform decently in at least one tier. Also why are you talking about Xerneas when this is OU? Greninja needs to go. It has a ton of coverage and can lay hazards, although usually doesn't have the space for Taunt. It forces most teams to sack a pokemon to try to revenge it, although it can simply escape after getting a kill and take down another pokemon. Even if you carry a "counter", it still may be beaten beaten by coverage leaving you open to your team being swept or severely weakened by it. All i see is that it is basically uncounterable, very hard to revenge with its high speed, and can ability to change types for universal STAB. This is proof enough that it should be banned in my mind.