Thanks a lot to Jukain for explaining it in detail. i was convinced that continuing the argument is pointless here and remembered why i hated posting in the forums. People keep repeating the same damn things and would just post whatever that came to their mind without properly grasping what the other side provided. Of course i didn't post in the most organised and detailed manner but anyone with half a brain should have understood what I was saying. If Mr firebird and celticpride read my first 2 posts and taken in what I said thenthey would have understood that why a lot of their counter arguments were wrong.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
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I posted about it in the underrated/gimmicks thread but I've started using houndoom because it effortlessly counters sableye and checks metagross not to mention destroying latis and the like. Very nice STABs and speed tier and lets face it, if people can manage hazards to make charizard or talonflame teams then you can definitely manage hazards for a houndoom.
Mega Sableye can officially fuck off. Maybe I just played badly (extremely likely), but I just had a match were it crippled Manaphy with Knock Off and there was a Tornadus-T waiting in the wings to abuse 100% accurate Hurricanes from my Rain. I eventually lost Manaphy and can couldn't get past the thing so I was forced to forfeit. I probably should have saved the replay (I started typing this the moment I quit) so people could tell me it was just me being bad and not it being a shit, but seriously fuck this thing.
okay, since this isn't a suspect test thread I'm not entirely sure if it's appropriate for me to post this but here are my thoughts on Mega Metagross, mainly coming for a teambuilding perspective :
I'm primarily a bulky offense/balance player, and MMetagross is probably limiting to teambuilding on that particular playstyle than anything bar maybe Mega-Sableye. Since bulkier teams give a bunch of switchin opportunities to MMetagross due to its bulk+typing+speed, you need a pretty consistent answer to it (if you just rely on a Meteor Mash resist like Rotom-W you can't guarantee he'll go for Meteor Mash the second time, or the third, or the fifth, so you want something that can switch on all its moves) and those are actually tricky to fit and not really that great for the most part. Assuming SR are up, they are more-or-less limited to mixed defensive Slowbro, Skarmory (too passive for balance), Roost Scizor, Gliscor, Physically Defensive Mew, Bulky Starmie, Alomomola, Doublade (once again, not good on balance), Gourgeist-XL, Synthesis+EQ Tangrowth, Physically Defensive Arcanine and Delphox (yes, going there) and that's just the STABs/Hammer Arm/GK set alone, the list decreases a bit when you factor in Ice Punch and EQ. Besides Slowbro, none of these are particularly good and most of the time you'd much rather not run one of the Pokemon on this list, so being pretty much forced to run one of these on every non-offense team is really annoying.
Ultimately, my problem with MMetagross is that the switch-in ratios are too much in its favor. We have powerful wallbreakers like MHera and MGardevoir who are almost impossible to switch into, but they can't switch in on too much either. On the other end of the spectrum, we have really bulky Pokemon like Chansey and Skarmory who can switch in on almost anything but deal little to no damage back. Generally speaking, we deal with a certain Pokemon by giving it less or equal opportunities to switch in as we do to switch into it, so none of these are really huge problems to deal with. But when we have a Pokemon like Mega-Metagross who not only switches in easily, but is also hard to switch into, this it forces a ton of pressure on teambuilding since it makes it very difficult to find an equilibrium between it switching in and you switching out, and you end up resorting to full counters like Scizor which makes you weaker to other stuff you'd rather not be weak to in return.
I'm really starting to dislike Mega Metagross's influence on the metagame and the way it twists teambuilding, at this point I'd rather see it suspected than Mega Sableye (not that I don't want to see that centralizing piece of shit suspected too)
I'm primarily a bulky offense/balance player, and MMetagross is probably limiting to teambuilding on that particular playstyle than anything bar maybe Mega-Sableye. Since bulkier teams give a bunch of switchin opportunities to MMetagross due to its bulk+typing+speed, you need a pretty consistent answer to it (if you just rely on a Meteor Mash resist like Rotom-W you can't guarantee he'll go for Meteor Mash the second time, or the third, or the fifth, so you want something that can switch on all its moves) and those are actually tricky to fit and not really that great for the most part. Assuming SR are up, they are more-or-less limited to mixed defensive Slowbro, Skarmory (too passive for balance), Roost Scizor, Gliscor, Physically Defensive Mew, Bulky Starmie, Alomomola, Doublade (once again, not good on balance), Gourgeist-XL, Synthesis+EQ Tangrowth, Physically Defensive Arcanine and Delphox (yes, going there) and that's just the STABs/Hammer Arm/GK set alone, the list decreases a bit when you factor in Ice Punch and EQ. Besides Slowbro, none of these are particularly good and most of the time you'd much rather not run one of the Pokemon on this list, so being pretty much forced to run one of these on every non-offense team is really annoying.
Ultimately, my problem with MMetagross is that the switch-in ratios are too much in its favor. We have powerful wallbreakers like MHera and MGardevoir who are almost impossible to switch into, but they can't switch in on too much either. On the other end of the spectrum, we have really bulky Pokemon like Chansey and Skarmory who can switch in on almost anything but deal little to no damage back. Generally speaking, we deal with a certain Pokemon by giving it less or equal opportunities to switch in as we do to switch into it, so none of these are really huge problems to deal with. But when we have a Pokemon like Mega-Metagross who not only switches in easily, but is also hard to switch into, this it forces a ton of pressure on teambuilding since it makes it very difficult to find an equilibrium between it switching in and you switching out, and you end up resorting to full counters like Scizor which makes you weaker to other stuff you'd rather not be weak to in return.
I'm really starting to dislike Mega Metagross's influence on the metagame and the way it twists teambuilding, at this point I'd rather see it suspected than Mega Sableye (not that I don't want to see that centralizing piece of shit suspected too)
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Let's be honest here; the meta isn't that diverse without Greninja. 80% of the teams are just MMetagross, Keldeo, VoltTurn support, SR setter, and whatever you want the last slot. And I don't blame people for using that, it's just a ridiculously effective playstyle. Basically, MMetagross is just a versatile fucker, you can't know what does he have in his moveset bar like Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt I guess... The point is that, unlike Greninja, it actually has a lot of switch-ins oportunities with his stellar bulk, ridiculous power, and can act as a lure to shit like Ferro (Hammer Arm) , Slowbro (Grass Knot) , Skarmory (Thunder Punch or a slow Hammer Arm) so something like Diggersby can come in and just wreck shit. That's just an example. It also has the hax factor, which has come into play a lot of my games, like flinching my Alomomola so I have to switch out and probably sack something, Meteor Mash's getting an atk boost, etc. From my experience, the only reliable way of beating this thing comfortably is using Rocky Helmet on bulky waters, Zapdos (which is weak to SR so you cant check it forever) and Skarmory (I honestly don't see many Magnezones nowadays, maybe that's just me)
I agree with Albacore here, I don't like MMetagross presence in the meta (no pun intended) and would like it to be atleast suspect tested.
I agree with Albacore here, I don't like MMetagross presence in the meta (no pun intended) and would like it to be atleast suspect tested.
You have forgotten about Victini (Delphox sucks). Has been a pretty reliable answer for me since EQ is not that common lately from what I've experienced, and you can always just scout for it
Does anyone remember the last time we suspected 2 mons within a week of each other (Angislash and Mawille)? Many people complained (and rightfully so) that we didn't let the meta settle enough between bannings. I'm not sure how long we should let metas settle between bannings but there should be an official period to keep things honest. It's not like Sableye and Metagross don't have answers.
I've never really understood the whole 'diverse metagame' argument when usage is often a hive mind of trends followed by responses to cope with said trends. Not to bring up the past, but Aegi's ban apparently promoted a diverse metagame and yet it just meant you saw the Lati twins on every team instead. I'm pro ban regarding Greninja, but I've no delusions of a more diverse metagame when players (not all) will usually just jump to the next easy to use thing. Poek97 summed it up pretty well. You're always gonna see things like keldeo, lando-T, Rotom-w, Lati@s, heatran etc. I can't go two games in a row without seeing at least 2 mons from the game prior, or at least that's what it feels like. There's more options available sure, but players certainly aren't taking them.
Usage =/= Viability. A more diverse metagame is where more stuff is viable and teambuoded isn't as restrictive, which is definitely true of you ignore the idiots on the ladder who still use P2.
I can see where you're coming from when you put it that way. The restrictive nature of Greninja is why I'm pro ban, it just sucks that viability isn't being reflected in the ladder right now.
Blame the copy paste kids going for the safe cores, I'm currently using sub liechi hawlucha for the lolz with great effect. The true OU cancer lies in gothithele cores if you ask me.
You're always going to have that, though. The interesting Pokemon (here defined as "the pokemon that don't get used often"... which are notably not used often, sort of circular logic there) are almost always tougher to use and provide less value to a team - there is a reason why A+ and S rank Pokemon are so good, and why they're so used! It takes a pretty good player to really experiment or innovate (officially, Smogon promotes the idea of inexperienced or weaker players starting with standard sets on standard Pokemon before experimenting, I read that yesterday and have forgotten where :( ) and those pretty good players are always going to be in the minority. Something something sturgeon something something 90% of anything is crap something something. People will use what they can perform well with, and in most cases, that means Keldeo over Cloyster, Rotom over Lanturn, Latias over Goodra and Landoge over (insert a million things Landoge outclasses here). Such is life!
I'm basically shit, so I draw the line at Dragalge in terms of weird things I use, and also avoid having teams with a lot of legendaries on them :D
That last point is probably why I'm shit :D
I completely agree that rankings are there for a reason, but that doesn't mean at all that we shouldn't use Goodra over Latias and so on, not all pokemon are completely outclassed, sure some actually are like say Fygon but some low ranked 'mons do offer a niche that some specific teams may require it.
For example, if my team is weak to pursuit things and I am having trouble checking Landorus-incarnate/Charizard Y I might find Goodra more useful than Latias in this situation, as Goodra allows me to have a non pursuit weak Landorus-incarnate/Zardy check, I might find Sludge Bomb/Wave useful, as it allows me to 2hko both Clefable and non assault vest azumarill while still being faster than them, and since many Landorus-i/Zardy are paired with pursuit support I may feel more "safe" when I face them, especially if we consider Focus Blast/Superpower a great answer against Tyranitar, something that Latias does not get, another example is how meloetta act as an okay-ish check for TauntGengar, a monster especially for stall teams, or how Doublade gives me in one package a check to Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross, both being two scary threats for stall teams to face, or again, I might find orb Tornadus-Therian on a Rain team valuable as a stallbreaker and momentum keeper.
For example, if my team is weak to pursuit things and I am having trouble checking Landorus-incarnate/Charizard Y I might find Goodra more useful than Latias in this situation, as Goodra allows me to have a non pursuit weak Landorus-incarnate/Zardy check, I might find Sludge Bomb/Wave useful, as it allows me to 2hko both Clefable and non assault vest azumarill while still being faster than them, and since many Landorus-i/Zardy are paired with pursuit support I may feel more "safe" when I face them, especially if we consider Focus Blast/Superpower a great answer against Tyranitar, something that Latias does not get, another example is how meloetta act as an okay-ish check for TauntGengar, a monster especially for stall teams, or how Doublade gives me in one package a check to Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross, both being two scary threats for stall teams to face, or again, I might find orb Tornadus-Therian on a Rain team valuable as a stallbreaker and momentum keeper.
Im going to say something that people will disagree but i like this metagame with mega Sableye:
-It is centralizing yes if you dont carry a check to him u basically lose to him but his checks are not gimmick pokemon like porygon 2 to greninja (that shit is uber) he has solid checks and counters like special nukers, fairys, fire types, mega lopunni, wall breakers like poison heal breloom dont care about him, etc so yeah he is centralizing like greninja was at the end of XY not broken but centralizing.
- Now i like to say that i like mega sableye meta because basically Wall breakers are on the rise and stall breakers are dead and annoying shit like taunt/will o wisp/ roost mew is dead which not only is annoying to stall also 4 offense if u didnt carry a fire type or lum berry bisharp u were stalled by mew and it forces pokemon like gliscor with (substitute/toxic/protect/earthquake) to now use SD and become a wall breake,r 4 me this a more funnyer metagame than it was XY.
-It is centralizing yes if you dont carry a check to him u basically lose to him but his checks are not gimmick pokemon like porygon 2 to greninja (that shit is uber) he has solid checks and counters like special nukers, fairys, fire types, mega lopunni, wall breakers like poison heal breloom dont care about him, etc so yeah he is centralizing like greninja was at the end of XY not broken but centralizing.
- Now i like to say that i like mega sableye meta because basically Wall breakers are on the rise and stall breakers are dead and annoying shit like taunt/will o wisp/ roost mew is dead which not only is annoying to stall also 4 offense if u didnt carry a fire type or lum berry bisharp u were stalled by mew and it forces pokemon like gliscor with (substitute/toxic/protect/earthquake) to now use SD and become a wall breake,r 4 me this a more funnyer metagame than it was XY.
No one is arguing about objective team building or viability that some pokemon posses, heck Greninja meta was the epitome of find a niche Pokemon and try to patch the Greninja weakness to be honest.
But the fact that we are judging is usage, and since there is an awful hive mind with copy paste teams going around, the true value of some pokemon sets gets undermined by "standard" builds used by the masses, instead of optimized to work in a team starts with some niche mons.
Are you sure of it? During my battles on the ladder both before and during Greninja Suspect I have seen a great variety of teams, with many mega evolutions like metagross, sableye, slowbro altaria, gyarados, diancie, charizard x, lopunny etc sure stuff like Landorus-therian, Latios, Heatran and Rotom-wash gets high usage, but every Metagame has its defining forces, and we got many "niche" 'mons having an usage increase, Manaphy for example has been considered by many top players thanks to its rain dance+tg set, being able to decimate common stall teams at the moment without useing your mega slot, Sylveon is a great partner to Gallade+Bisharp core being able to scare off MegaSableye, Azelf has returned being a top suicide Stealth Rock user thanks to Skill Swap, Jirachi is also getting recognition being able to stop MegaGardevoir and Clefable and being a passable check for Mega Diancie, this is also not talking about common Overused threats using different moves, for example I have seen several CMClefable having HP Ground in order to easily weaken Heatran in order for another sweeper to clean later like say cm mega sableye.
Sure perhaps ladder is full of "players that uses copy paste teams" but that's evened up by the fact that they are many "copy paste teams", I think the Metagame is fine as it is (if greninja gets banned), with perhaps the need to examine Mega Metagross in the future.
If you're trying to find total diversity on ladder you're doing in completely wrong. Most of the diversity stems from outside sources such as tournaments both official and unofficial. Ladder is notorious for copy/paste builds because of the ease which isn't necessarily a bad thing but thought I would bring this up. If anything there is a bit more freedom as creativity comes from the players themselves not necessarily an entire demographic.
I'm not denying that, but what bothers me is that most people just don't like how innovative things tend to get, I mean we can't fully measure the effectiveness of non-standard cores outside of tournament plays to be honest.
It kinda sucks that the sense of originality dies whenever you want to start a team from 0 and see how it fares on the ladder.
This is a myth tbh, the last point. Creativity and diversity can still be built in mind while being effective in standard play because at the end of the day it's the players behind it making these choices to come towards a positive end goal. You can see this plenty in team showcases as well as team archives that built around different aspects to handle a certain meta-game trend and thus their creation or build made more people aware and as such come to standards we see today. As far as the hive mind thing goes I'd probably just ignore it, this isn't exactly a new thing that only applies to Pokemon. As long as it works at a level where players have to both be decent then it really shouldn't matter what it is as long as it works.
Id go with you on the hive mind, it's better to just ignore it. But I meant that doesn't change how unoriginal the lower end of the ladder is bar the thematic ones and a few interesting cores on balance, it seems that the average ladder experience is kinda... Disappoining, wich may reflect how the usage of certain pokemon gets perceived. I mean I have seen people sacrifice their only Metagross check only to try to bring CM cleffable to sweep... I'm not saying the set is bad but the usage and performance level of this copy and paste teams leave a lot to be desired.
By no means I'm criticizing on trends or team building just on the most common denominator on a set effectiveness.
Mega Metagross being to good? How odd, it is not like people already mentioned it as soons as they saw it being a 700BST mon with essentially a Life Orb boost. How "surprising" that it might be really good...
*cough* really Smogon, really?
*cough* really Smogon, really?
Mega Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Slaking, Regigigas, and Mega Latios hi.
(I know they don't have a LO boost, but seriously just because something has an insane BST doesn't automatically make it good)
You are seriously bringing up Slaking and Regigigas? Is that a joke?
Also the LO Boost is relevant, in fact it is the point of my post, considering its stats, it is the ability that pushes him over the edge. And a lot of people mentioned it, too. The BST was never the main reason something was to good, as proven by Kyurem Black in Gen 5
I am just midly amused that people gets this late in ban mood for it
Also the LO Boost is relevant, in fact it is the point of my post, considering its stats, it is the ability that pushes him over the edge. And a lot of people mentioned it, too. The BST was never the main reason something was to good, as proven by Kyurem Black in Gen 5
I am just midly amused that people gets this late in ban mood for it
I still find CharX to be superior to Mgross. For typing and sheer destructive power, accept no substitutes.
Main difference is that Mgross can run a fully offensive set where charX basically has to run a support move. Agility builds aren't even that common anymore, are they?
Main difference is that Mgross can run a fully offensive set where charX basically has to run a support move. Agility builds aren't even that common anymore, are they?
I did pretty well on the suspect ladder using Xatu and Coballion I won't say that originality or non-standard cores didn't crop up in the suspect ladder, I also succeeded fairly well using Sub-coil Zygarde on my other alt (and I made reqs with both accounts and fairly good win-ratio with 79 and 81). Another thing I noticed is Empoleon cropping up in the ladder, even without Greninja it proved to be an effective defensive defogger with key resistances.
However, it is as AM said this is more the fault of the players than anything, as I noticed many people with cut-paste teams that aren't even fully aware of why X or Y EV spread was chosen etc.
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