Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Questro]

i figure i ought to start another bitch rant on this guy so brb

let's just be really fucking honest here. this guy is beastly. we all know that. however, with greg getting the inevitable boot, i can see him becoming the next most retarded thing ever to exist (i.e. the next potential suspect)

we can probably start by looking at the basic facts. 145 attack + tough claws is pretty godly. metagross hits just about as hard as say, zard X. however, unlike zard X, metagross has extremely good bulk, and more importantly, naturally hits the 110 speed tier, allowing him to tie with Gengar, Megallade, eon twins and every shit inside this speed tier while beating everything else below.

that's not really all. beyond metagross's stabs, you don't really know what the fuck this guy can run. meteor mash and zhb are just about the only guaranteed things imo on metagross's moveset, and from there, he can just pick options like bullet punch, elemental punches, pursuit, hone claws, agility (rock polish is for mainstream idiots), hammer arm, earthquake and grass knot. heck, there are even gravity sets out there, which is kinda stupid. pup sets even have potential in destroying slower teams too.

if anything else, metagross just hits... like a dumpster truck. meteor mash is pretty much an absolute nuke, and 2 shots nearly everything without a remote semblance of physical bulk. 80 / 150 / 110 is amazing standards for bulk: it actually has comparable, if not better bulk to mega salamence. metagross's real issues are really scarfed earthquake users, but they aren't exactly the hardest thing to take advantage of with the 985478932 shit in the tier that is immune to ground. even magnezone fears hammer arm/earthquake while he barely 2hkoes (iirc) with thunderbolt. not a lot can really safely switch into it (wash doesnt enjoy tpunch/zhb, bisharp can't handle hammer arm, slowbro dies to gk, revenge killers still have to take a bullet punch to the face, etc)

i mean, i know there will be the inevitable argument that metagross can't run everything at once, but honestly, i don't see what's the issue, the coverage options just means metagross is more threatening, especially when it really only needs mash and zhb.

or maybe i just suck and keep churning out gross-weak teams, but either way, i think this guy is pretty retarded as fuck.

tldr: power level is overpowering for ou, it sits as one of the faster mons in the tier, and it actually has some really godlike bulk.

im probably gonna get flamed for this but idk, i think there needs to be at least some sort of discussion on this guy; he looks set to become at least the next suspect imho after greninja so might as well. the current S ranks (without greg, obv) don't have this combination of power, speed and bulk that metagross does (latios/thundurus lacks bulk, landoge lacks speed and needs scarf). the only other thing that could be this ridiculous is probably msable but at least there's a hard counter in clefable...

I agree with a lot of your points on M-gross.

And here is my wussy rant of the day:
I know hax is not really a legitimate reason to complain (unless uncompetitive like prankster swagger) but after countless matches with Gross, I realized just how much I underestimated his moves' hax rates. It happens way more often than I expect and it puts so much pressure on defensive mons because yea, I can tank a neutral meteor mash then a hammer arm with my Ferrothorn...not so much when he gets that +1. No problemo, I'll just send in a bulky water, but not Slowbro since I found out that the thing had Grass Knot after it killed my Hippowdon, woops. Alright, Rotom-W's totally got this.

Rotom-w flinched!

Well damn.

I'm not saying this scenario happens every game, but hax coming from Mega Metagross becomes an actual, tangible threat. I don't brush it off as oh, it won't happen the next time I see a Metagross, because the potential is there, and it's moderately high.

I talk about this from a defensive standpoint because obviously you can revenge kill it before it haxes you, but even then, there's only so many Scarfers/faster/priority pokes who can kill M-gross quickly enough before it kills your own Scarfer.

Maybe I'm just a whiny baby crying about typical RNG things. And ironically, whenever I use M-gross myself, it doesn't put in nearly as much work as I want it to (that's just personal experience) so I don't think it's necessarily breaking the meta right now; it's not Salamence-level or Greninja-level in my opinion...but it is darn frustrating.

 

[Stallion]

The metagame is one million times better without Greninja, and no this isn't an exaggeration. I don't have to slap a Porygon2 on every team just to feel safe now. I now feel like I can be diverse in building really strong, versatile teams. This is the best the metagame has been and without Gren nothing really stands out as broken to me, although Mega Metagross is a pain in the ass to switch in on of course.

Also when I use Metagross it seems to miss Zen Headbutt every fucking time (in one 3 game stretch I missed 5 in a row) and hasn't flinched once for me, maybe I'm just unlucky.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

The ninja-less metagame is beautiful. Utterly sublime and tho I'm still trying to reach reqs to vote the bugger out (I'm not that good lol) I can say that I have enjoyed OU again after a 6 weeks of gren induced stagnation. More variety on Teams with Balance and hyper offence coming back, less pressure on team building and tho stall is popping up everywhere much to my displeasure Gothitelle, Mega Diancie, Fairies in general and Metagross all do a nice job in keeping it from getting to out of hand. Overall the current meta given time to settle should be balanced with no extremes or anything like that.

Only pokemon I see getting a suspect from here is Mega sableye since that maybe to much of a defensive threat given that Unless you have a fairy or physical fire type It can easily Wreck opposing teams from multiple archtypes through its ability to control the hazard and status game as well as having access to prankster in its base form for more shenanigens. Some game's all I see it do is recover and switch out on the obvious fairy switch after Magic bounce or prankster has done its work and is simply a nuisence. May just be me since I haven't had to put in so much work vs stall since Gen 4 but the meta is enjoyable and thankfully not overly centeralised around the gremlin.
As for other hyped mega's in the post gren meta I can say slowbro has been a disapointment being easily set up apon or worse Gothitelle bait and for a mega that is bad. Metagross tho is a powerful monster reminding me off Gen 4 physical salamance just with more speed at the cost of your item. Very hard hitting yes but handleble and Something I enjoy facing. Most importantly it has checks/counters that aren't super niche So I dont see it as a problem. Yet

 

[56k]

I feel the exact opposite of you guys: I'd be a lot happier if greninja was around to suppress fairy usage and sableye would be that much better!

 

[AM]

I feel the exact opposite of you guys: I'd be a lot happier if greninja was around to suppress fairy usage and sableye would be that much better!

Yeah tbh these aren't exactly issues.

Clefable is checkable as hell, M-Gardevoir although strong is manageable with any decent team build and even if a little weak can be played around, same deal with Azumarill, and Togekiss isn't exactly that hard to handle either.

Greninja really has nothing to do with M-Sableyes consistency and M-Sableye will still be as good as it ever was. I think the last thing anybody wants is for M-Sableye to be better than it already is lol.

 

[56k]

Yeah tbh these aren't exactly issues.

Clefable is checkable as hell, M-Gardevoir although strong is manageable with any decent team build and even if a little weak can be played around, same deal with Azumarill, and Togekiss isn't exactly that hard to handle either.

Greninja really has nothing to do with M-Sableyes consistency and M-Sableye will still be as good as it ever was. I think the last thing anybody wants is for M-Sableye to be better than it already is lol.

If greninja was around as a *universal* fairy revenge killer, which otherwise doesn't exist, you can be sure that their usage would drop and sableye would have easier games!

It's not only fairy spam that's giving sableye teams a good run for their money but also the teammates that such teams can afford to use in a no-ninja environment. Since there is less pressure to outspeed the 122 tier with weak things like sceptile and scarfchomp and there is also less pressure for teams to carry bulky waters or a ferrothorn and such to switch into it, you see much slower and more powerful things that easily 1hko or 2hko sabel freely running around with seemingly few drawbacks.

It is often a liability because it is setup fodder for quite a few things out there that otherwise wouldn't be popular at all.

I can definitely understand the sabel hate coming from a different perspective but I really like what he can bring to the table and I've gotta say he's tough to use on a stall team at the moment because he can't really switch into and tank anything notable in the suspect ladder. :(

 

[Josh Morales]

Yeah man I can't wait for a Greninja-less metagame. I can't wait to start playing regularly, I fucking hated that thing so much. The fact that I main balance is probably why I quit playing ORAS because of gren xD

 

[AM]

If greninja was around as a *universal* fairy revenge killer, which otherwise doesn't exist, you can be sure that their usage would drop and sableye would have easier games!

It's not only fairy spam that's giving sableye teams a good run for their money but also the teammates that such teams can afford to use in a no-ninja environment. Since there is less pressure to outspeed the 122 tier with weak things like sceptile and scarfchomp and there is also less pressure for teams to carry bulky waters or a ferrothorn and such to switch into it, you see much slower and more powerful things that easily 1hko or 2hko sabel freely running around with seemingly few drawbacks.

It is often a liability because it is setup fodder for quite a few things out there that otherwise wouldn't be popular at all.

I can definitely understand the sabel hate coming from a different perspective but I really like what he can bring to the table and I've gotta say he's tough to use on a stall team at the moment because he can't really switch into and tank anything notable in the suspect ladder. :(

Cant really comment on the first point that seems like lazy teambuilding to me.

Rather have diversity than such a restriction in teambuilding.

M-sableye is not hard to use and if you really think its set up fodder or gets 1hko 2hko everytime it comes in you must be using it wrong on the team. The fact that almost every stall team has m-sableye is testament to its abilities and the ease of using and implementing one on a team is why its such a prevalent mon in the tier. M-sableye really isnt restricted as you're making it out to be.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Can somebody explain to me why they consider Sable suspect worthy? I say this respectfully out of genuine curiosity after being absent from ORAS for a while. It seems vulnerable with abysmal speed and next to 0 resistances, but I recognise prankster will-o, magic bounce and one weakness allow for a formidable stall threat. I recognise stall is probably the most frustrating style to play against and M-eye is the current most formidable highlight of this, but it doesn't strike me as game breaking. I don't wish to derail the thread nor do I wish to start talking about future suspects, but I'd appreciate further understanding of the mindset pro-ban users have.

 

[Albacore]

The main reason people want MSableye suspected is that is more-or-less prevents hazards from going up against stall outside of a few rock setters such as Landorus-I and Clefable. This makes stall teams much harder to break, since you can no longer rely on passive damage from repeated forced switches in order to wear down the team. Of course there are other reasons (another one being providing Taunt immunity to the team, Taunt being the second most dangerous thing for stall to deal with besides entry hazards) but from what I can gather this is the main one.

 

[NZ744]

Mega Sableye beats 99% of the meta 1v1, destroys stall, destroys offense and also beats everything in between. the only things that can beat it are only 2 or 3 fairies in mega gard, mega diancie, clef, sylveon and people getting lucky with scald. (notice 2 megas?) Zard-x cant do shit cause it dies to Foul Play. SubCM Keld is checked way to easily by few hundred other mons and doesnt have recovery. How the fuck can anyone have any other opinion other than this mon being broken as hell? Mega Sab stall/semi-stall is the closest thing to an invincible team.

on another note, greninjaless metagame seems interesting. No way it's broken and certainly not even close to mega sableye but I can see why it's unhealthy for the meta. Mega Metagross is strong but there are plenty of ways to handle it. What elemental punch it has mind games can give arise to some difficulties facing it but that's about it. but yeah, the brokenness of mega sableye is worlds above these two.

 

[RufflesPro]

Greninja-less meta is absolutely beautiful. There are finally some Pokemon that were really hindered by Greninja come to viability again.

After getting reqs, I really find greninja-less meta much more balanced and better for creative teambuilding. A lot of Pokemon benefited from greninja removal, and i'm not talking about gimmick, i'm talking about viable Pokemon who are alive and kicking rn.

Some of the Pokemon that most benefited in post-greninja meta (IMO):

Clefable: I believe this is the number one Pokemon who benefited from greninja not being there, really. Without Greninja, it can finally do its job again, check sweepers with Unaware, attempt to sweep with CM + Magic Guard, or provide Wish/Heal Bell/SR support, or even Healing Wish. The same goes to other fairies, such as Azumarill and Mega Gardevoir, to a lesser extent.

Gengar: Always revenge killed by Greninja, and with the scarce checks, Gengar was always dying in the face of Greninja. But now, it can achieve glory again, from Stallbreaker to Utility to Life Orb Wallbreaker to even SubSplit Life Orb with 2 attacks, Gengar is all over the place, being, right now, the most reliant fairy-checker.

Celebi: Greninja loved killing this thing, it could torture it in 3 ways: Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, or Dark Pulse. Sometimes even HP Fire. Celebi is loving the Greninja ban, being back to support the team with Heal Bell, countering Keldeo and many other Pokemons such as Thundurus, Baton Pass either Sub, NP, or CM, and checking rain offense. This thing is back in action, it even provides Thunder Wave support.

Starmie: Literally the only reason Exca > Starmie was the existence of Greninja as a superior water-offensive. And that's why only the Defensive set were barely seen since Greninja still roflstomps them. But now, both the defensive and the offensive sets are very viable, especially since the speed of the meta have significantly dropped. Starmie is about the 4th fastest viable mon in OU after Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, and Weavile. (Weavile isn't even that common anymore).

Mega Metagross: Grenina was a bane for Metagross mainly because it could just come and Dark Pulse, and if no proper counter existed, something would die or Mega Metagross would be force to die. Having one of the biggest checks just go, Mega Metagross sure is happy, it's presence right now is actually a threat to teambuilding in OU. It can easily sweep unprepared teams now.

Scizor: Yes, even Scizor. Scizor, Choice band or Scizorite, was always viable, but the existence of Greninja in OU always at least slightly hindered it, simply because Hydro Pump always outstalled Roost on bulky sets, does like 70% to offensive sets, or HP Fire just downright OHKOs. The other thing was that Greninja can easily take a BP.

Ferrothorn: Similarly to Scizor, Greninja was bane for Ferrothorn. Aside from HP Fire slaying it, Ice Beam and Dark Pulse wear it down until it can be OHKOed, as they can easily 3HKO. Greninja not being here slightly made Ferro better.

Hawlucha, Keldeo, and Terrakion: These Pokemons mainly got better because of the decline of Lati@s that I'll explain soon.


The slight decline of Lati@s: Yes, I do believe that these Pokemon, Latios and Latias, are declining in usage and viability. Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Metagross, Scizor, Mega Scizor, Azumarill, Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, SpD Celebi, and Clefable. Those are all pokemon that can counter or check Latios and Latias and are rising in popular a LOT. At least one of those Pokemons are on 50% of the teams out there in OU. Add to that the old checks and counters like Tyranitar, and add to that the new things that can revenge kill it like Starmie, and you really cannot help but think Latios and Latias are actually not as good as they were. This does not directly relate to Greninja, but rather relates to the rise of other Pokemon who can easily counter/check Lati@s but were not heavily used due to Greninja. I'm even using Healing Wish Clefable > Healing Wish Latias ...

 

[D-Ssain]

Mega Slowbro has also been pretty annoying with Ninja gone. Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye make stall viable. You can't get hazards up with Mega Sableye on the field and Slowbro just needs a couple calm minds to destroy you with that nice natural bulk and its ability in that you can't crit him. Imo either of Mega Metagross, Mega Sableye or Mega Slowbro are next in line to be suspect tested.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

i dont think slowbronite is really worth a suspect atm: he's just good, but without the calm minds early on he'll have issues taking on strong special attackers with tbolt/grass knot etc. sure, you can say use support to remove them, but that applies to nearly everything in the game. also mega evolution means that he has to sacrifice regenerator, so if you can force him out again, you're gold (of course you die in a last pokemon scenario, but you'll already have issues against crocune and stuff in a last mon scenario, this isn't exactly something new)

i dont really know about sablenite, the CM set makes for a quick and easy win condition (its very easy to set up 2 calm minds if you know what you're doing, with prankster abuse), but its hard-stopped by stuff like clefable and sylveon (also it can't really kill zard x fast enough imo). i can see the support set being ridiculous for reasons stated though, seeing as sableye doesn't have that bad of bulk, and most rockers tend to have lower offenses in comparison so they will have some issues breaking through sable (the stronger ones are generally lead sets like nape, chomp etc so chances are they wont even be a factor)

 

[NZ744]

i dont really know about sablenite, the CM set makes for a quick and easy win condition (its very easy to set up 2 calm minds if you know what you're doing, with prankster abuse), but its hard-stopped by stuff like clefable and sylveon (also it can't really kill zard x fast enough imo). i can see the support set being ridiculous for reasons stated though, seeing as sableye doesn't have that bad of bulk, and most rockers tend to have lower offenses in comparison so they will have some issues breaking through sable (the stronger ones are generally lead sets like nape, chomp etc so chances are they wont even be a factor)

lol getting hard stopped by 2 mons giving you second thoughts? yes it is hard stopped by clef and sylveon, but also keep in mind that it beats pretty much everything that isn't those two. Go to showdown, look at the ou mons and make a list of how many mons lose to it 1v1. We've had broken mons like Mega Lucario, Mega Kanga, Genesect who a had a small number checks/counters like Mega Sab but they didn't beat everything 1v1 and there was a lot of stuff which could revenge kill them (which Mega Sab does not). Not to mention the first turn prankster mechanic almost completely shuts down offense which doesn't use MegaGard/MegaDiancie(centralization much?).

And yes I know "everything" is a sort of exaggeration but the list of mons it beat is really too fucking big. And don't come at me like "SD Lum Chomp" beats it like hell it does. It can just burn the berry, switch out and come back in later and woah now SD Chomp loses ^_^

Also, I know it doesnt beat Zard-X "fast enough" but you can't say Zard-X beats it either. Other known "checks" like Taunt Mega Gyara are very very loose one as it can't come in on wisp and you need to predict which can go both ways. Just saying.

 

[56k]

lol getting hard stopped by 2 mons giving you second thoughts? yes it is hard stopped by clef and sylveon, but also keep in mind that it beats pretty much everything that isn't those two. Go to showdown, look at the ou mons and make a list of how many mons lose to it 1v1.

Taking mons strictly from OU and BL and talking in a strictly 1v1 sense where sabel still has prankster and no one is switching

Things that beat the physically defensive foul play set:
Mega Charizard - Y
Clefable
Wallbreaker Mega Garchomp
Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir
Heatran
Heracross and/or Mega Heracross
Keldeo
Kyurem-Black
Landorus-I
Mega Latias
Mew (dead equal fight honestly. super stall war. it's just notable because it can easily burn sabel)
Mega Slowbro
Sylveon
Thundurus-I

Mega Altaria
Mega Diancie
Klefki
Mega Lopunny
Manaphy
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Victini
Volcarona



Things that beat the CM set: many of the above things (especially if they have their own NP or CM) and also:
Mega Charizard - X
Gyarados
Talonflame


Late battle additional things that can hit sabel hard enough that, if it doesn't have prankster, can kill it from 50% and prevent recover:
Azumarill
Bisharp
CB Dragonite
Excadrill
LO Gengar
Landorus-T
Mamoswine
Mega Metagross
Mega Pinsir
Terrakion
Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar

Crawdaunt
Diggersby



Seriously he only has 50 base hp. He is great on paper and also great in practice but due to the hardcore offensive nature of the game he has precious few pokemon to safely do his thing against. If you want to "guarantee" stealth rocks for your strategy you can use Heatran, Clefable, Landorus-I, Mold Breaker drill, LO Infernape, Diancie, or skill swap Azelf

 

[AM]

Taking mons strictly from OU and BL and talking in a strictly 1v1 sense where sabel still has prankster and no one is switching

Things that beat the physically defensive foul play set:
Mega Charizard - Y
Clefable
Wallbreaker Mega Garchomp
Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir
Heatran
Heracross and/or Mega Heracross
Keldeo
Kyurem-Black
Landorus-I
Mega Latias
Mew (dead equal fight honestly. super stall war. it's just notable because it can easily burn sabel)
Mega Slowbro
Sylveon
Thundurus-I

Mega Altaria
Mega Diancie
Klefki
Mega Lopunny
Manaphy
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Victini
Volcarona



Things that beat the CM set: many of the above things (especially if they have their own NP or CM) and also:
Mega Charizard - X
Gyarados
Talonflame


Late battle additional things that can hit sabel hard enough that, if it doesn't have prankster, can kill it from 50% and prevent recover:
Azumarill
Bisharp
CB Dragonite
Excadrill
LO Gengar
Landorus-T
Mamoswine
Mega Metagross
Mega Pinsir
Terrakion
Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar

Crawdaunt
Diggersby



Seriously he only has 50 base hp. He is great on paper and also great in practice but due to the hardcore offensive nature of the game he has precious few pokemon to safely do his thing against. If you want to "guarantee" stealth rocks for your strategy you can use Heatran, Clefable, Landorus-I, Mold Breaker drill, LO Infernape, Diancie, or skill swap Azelf

Uh you can't really just view everything from a 1v1 position though. Let's consider the fact that Sableye is backed up by either an enormous defensive backbone in Stall or is providing an extreme amount of anti-hazard support for Balanced builds. Half of these aren't even good answers to be honest cause in practice they're getting screwed over by something on the team or a variant in M-Sableye's moveset. Mixed defensive spreads also mitigate half the issues here and half these things will never want to switch in right off the bat such as Lando-I for fear of getting hit with knock off. That's my piece of M-Sableye.

I guess my only thing to bring up is people mentioning that M-Lopunny can now run Adamant in a greninja-less meta. Sure it can do this but getting outpaced by various base 100s absolutely suck if not running Fake Out and I'm not too fond of the idea that you'll get outpace by threats such as Weavile either. I still think Jolly will have its merits just cause it's already fast and strong to begin with.

Yeah M-Slowbro is only a serious issue if you make a team legitimately weak to it but that can be said for anything really. I think most people are just frustrated by it because you have to actually provide a check an answer to this and it's amazing how many people overlook Mega Slowbro. Frankly it's not exactly a problem and definitely has issues with match-up in terms of its sets and what it has to contend with. If the argument is that it sets up a couple of Calm Minds and you're done for, then this makes no sense because this can be said for a bunch of stuff such as Char-X, and M-Altaria in correlation to their boosting move.

 

[NZ744]

Taking mons strictly from OU and BL and talking in a strictly 1v1 sense where sabel still has prankster and no one is switching

Things that beat the physically defensive foul play set:
Mega Charizard - Y
Clefable
Wallbreaker Mega Garchomp
Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir
Heatran
Heracross and/or Mega Heracross
Keldeo
Kyurem-Black
Landorus-I
Mega Latias
Mew (dead equal fight honestly. super stall war. it's just notable because it can easily burn sabel)
Mega Slowbro
Sylveon
Thundurus-I

Mega Altaria
Mega Diancie
Klefki
Mega Lopunny
Manaphy
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Victini
Volcarona

"Many of the above" lol no. The bolded ones I listed can't beat the CM set. So it gives a total of 10 pokemon that can beat the CM set. OU+BL has over 50 pokemon. Sab pretty much beats everything else. That's like completely shitting on 80% of the metagame, do you see how crazy this is now? I didn't count the italiced ones cause they are ass. Regirock, Rhyperior, Evio Rhydon, Registeel, Steelix, Phy Def Electross etc existed for countering Mega Mence but it still was broken as fuck. The Mega Hera can only beat it if it's adamant and must force itself to get burned and the other alternative is Guts Hera(lower tier but meh).

The numbers are speaking for themselves. Now consider this, that list is just things that beat it 1v1. In an actual battle, Sab can cripple them on the switch and then switch out. This is pretty big because like I said, it shits on 80% of the meta so they can easily wear down these select few mons and even if they sac 2 mons in the process they are still getting a big advantage because Mega Sab has the potential to outright beat the rest of the team or at least severely cripple it. THIS is why it's so fucking broken.

Now alongside this godly prowess, this thing bounces back hazards from 99% of the hazard setters out there. The only one I can think of is SR Clef. This itself is huge, we have seen bans of Deo formes simply because they could get hazards up easily. So you see just how big of a support hazard control is. Now add status control with that. it doesnt absorb status, it bounces them back meaning uses it against u. This is also pretty huge as Toxic Sylveon is the only status user(clef rarely runs toxic/twave) that can beat Sab. Not mentioning other stuff cause I don't wanna write more. Now please provide your counter argument :)

 

[56k]

First of all those 10 or so pokemon literally counter every set and aren't niche or uncommon at all. I say counter because they can indeed switch in on any move, giving sabel a free turn to do whatever it wants, and sabel will still die or get forced out. Many of them have reliable recovery and won't go down to hazards or burns so easily. This is up to player preference though. An altaria can pretty much switch into and force out sableye infinitely if it has roost. But a more offensively minded player might be using a pokemon like victini or manaphy that can really put the squeeze on a stall team and limit switches in the future. Yes sabel got out safely but at what cost? A broken teammate that was otherwise crucial? A nasty plotted wallbreaker in front of you that you can only phase once?

I can understand why it would be annoying that taunt no longer works against some stall teams and only certain hazard setters can kill the thing. But it is awfully easy for offense to adapt to this: just carry more powerful threats. More wallbreakers, more powerful fire types, more powerful megas, and more trappers. That's basically what the suspect ladder is at this point. Trust me, if you try a sableye stall team you're definitely in for some frustrations of your own as you run into the various gardevoirs, charizards, gothitelles, and the like.

I will admit that team-matchup is pretty bad at the moment. For example rain teams literally have nothing against a good stall team with amoongus/ferro/tangrowth/whatever and a bulky water. But that same stall team probably loses instantly to gothitelle+pinsir+landorus-i. Meanwhile that same rain team can do amazing things with 8 turns of speed against frail HO teams that aren't used to being definitively outsped. Either way I recommend trying him out and seeing if you can actually get the CM set to work for you because I personally think it's very overrated and I much prefer knock off+foul play.

 

[Verminator]

Just want to say, regardless of whether Greninja gets banned or not, I agree that Megagross needs to be looked at. While it's definitely not as ridiculous as Mence was, it's broadly similar in the sense that it's more or less a "flawless" pokemon. I don't mean that it's literally perfect, but there are very few pokemon that are this fast, this bulky and this strong simultaneously. It's got a few weaknesses but they're all 1 x weaknesses and it has the bulk to tank through most unboosted attacks no problem, especially with some investment, and then smash the users back, plus it also has plenty of resists to exploit. That's why I love the Agility set the most, it's basically a free license to put tons of investment in HP which makes it even easier to get free turns to use Agility with. In addition it has no consistent counters owing to its large tough claws-boosted movepool that lets it smash through more or less anything the user desires. I guess Lando-T being on every team mitigates it's effectiveness somewhat, but even that gets blown back by Ice Punch and unless it's fully physically defensive it still gets zonked for a lot of damage by Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt, even after Intimidate. Oh, and if it tries to come in on the turn Gross mega evolves, the Intimidate gets blocked by Clear Body. Yay.

Slowbro I've not encountered a great deal but can deffo see being a major pain in the ass, Sableye I don't see as a problem. Regardless, I feel like Megagross needs to be at the head of the queue for the chopping block.

 

[NZ744]

First of all those 10 or so pokemon literally counter every set and aren't niche or uncommon at all. I say counter because they can indeed switch in on any move, giving sabel a free turn to do whatever it wants, and sabel will still die or get forced out. Many of them have reliable recovery and won't go down to hazards or burns so easily. This is up to player preference though.

not true mate. only 3 or so.

An altaria can pretty much switch into and force out sableye infinitely if it has roost. But a more offensively minded player might be using a pokemon like victini or manaphy that can really put the squeeze on a stall team and limit switches in the future.

mega altaria is 1 mon and the only legit point u make. So now we have a total of 4 counters. doesnt change the fact that everything else still loses. tg mana and cb tini are two mons that just provides a little bit of resistance. my points still stand.

Yes sabel got out safely but at what cost? A broken teammate that was otherwise crucial? A nasty plotted wallbreaker in front of you that you can only phase once?


a broken teammate for eliminating the single thing that could beat it so Sab becomes too strong to for the opposing team to deal with. That's my whole point please read my post again.

I can understand why it would be annoying that taunt no longer works against some stall teams and only certain hazard setters can kill the thing. But it is awfully easy for offense to adapt to this: just carry more powerful threats. More wallbreakers, more powerful fire types, more powerful megas, and more trappers. That's basically what the suspect ladder is at this point. Trust me, if you try a sableye stall team you're definitely in for some frustrations of your own as you run into the various gardevoirs, charizards, gothitelles, and the like.

certain hazard setters are wrong. 1 or 2 hazard setters are more like it. an no, it's not "awfully easy" lol show me some games if u can. just carry more powerful threats huh?more powerful megas? can u list me some with calcs? cuz there aren't any outside of that small list that can reliably beat Sab. u keep repeating that 10 mon list and ignore my main point is that Mega Sab shits on everything else. and also, running 3 of the 10 mon list will make u severely weak to other stuff and not a legit logic.

I will admit that team-matchup is pretty bad at the moment. For example rain teams literally have nothing against a good stall team with amoongus/ferro/tangrowth/whatever and a bulky water. But that same stall team probably loses instantly to gothitelle+pinsir+landorus-i. Meanwhile that same rain team can do amazing things with 8 turns of speed against frail HO teams that aren't used to being definitively outsped. Either way I recommend trying him out and seeing if you can actually get the CM set to work for you because I personally think it's very overrated and I much prefer knock off+foul play.

CM set DID work for me. the only reason u think it's overrated because people are over-preparing for it at the moment. just remember this can go both ways, and Mega Sab can run correct support and throw off your "instantly beats stall teams core". That core gets stomped by Shed Shell Skarm+Cresselia+Chansey for example. And you're also completely ignoring the hazard control and status blocking support mega Sab brings. Good luck breaking that core without hazards. And tbh I also prefer Knock Off+Foul Play atm over CM because people are over-preparing for it now and simply switching to this sets let's it beat a good portion of the methods to deal with Mega Sab outside fairies. (Such as Foul Playing that Lum SD'er which could beat CM 1v1)

Finally, you get to my real point. However instead of recognising the insane restrictions Mega Sableye puts on team building, u just call it "Team Matchup". lol no, that's not team match up. Team Match up happens when there's too much variety in the tier and results in one team style to be weak to another style in a rock, paper, scissor manner. I wouldn't call having to dedicate 3 slots on my team for just a single pokemon acceptable and part of team match up. Just because you went out of your way and used a select few mons to beat Sableye stall doesn't mean the problem's solved. Mega Sab teams can adapt too and start abusing the insane restrictions Mega Sab creates. And it also doesn't change the fact that a huge portion of the metagame performs poorly with Mega Sab being present.

Sableye I don't see as a problem. Regardless, I feel like Megagross needs to be at the head of the queue for the chopping block.

Please explain why. Mega Sab is a much bigger concern than mega meta. It has a lot of counters and checks. It can't beat bulky waters like Suicune, SLowbro, Phy Def Rotom-w etc and Skarm can phaze if it lacks thunder Punch and Land-T/Glis shuts it down if it lacks Ice Punch. Quag beats it everytime. Mega Metagross doesn't beat almost the entire pool of mons 1v1 and is MUCH easier to wear down. There are a lot of options for RKing MegaGross in LO Thund, Scarfed Grounds, LO Bisharp etc. Granted it requires a bit of prior damage but the amount is very small. It's very slow before mega evolving and is likely to take a heavy hit from something faster and doesn't provide the insane Hazard and Status control like Mega Sableye. I know Metagross is a big threat and possibly requires a suspect test but in no way before Mega Sableye.

 

[Firebird101]

Please explain why. Mega Sab is a much bigger concern than mega meta. It has a lot of counters and checks. It can't beat bulky waters like Suicune, SLowbro, Phy Def Rotom-w etc and Skarm can phaze if it lacks thunder Punch and Land-T/Glis shuts it down if it lacks Ice Punch. Quag beats it everytime. Mega Metagross doesn't beat almost the entire pool of mons 1v1 and is MUCH easier to wear down. There are a lot of options for RKing MegaGross in LO Thund, Scarfed Grounds, LO Bisharp etc. Granted it requires a bit of prior damage but the amount is very small. It's very slow before mega evolving and is likely to take a heavy hit from something faster and doesn't provide the insane Hazard and Status control like Mega Sableye. I know Metagross is a big threat and possibly requires a suspect test but in no way before Mega Sableye.

I don't think either of them even warrant a suspect test. While both MMeta and MSab are amazing they both have their share of flaws that keeps them from doing their jobs flawlessly or consistently. Like you said, MMeta can't sweep the opposite team unless it's checks and counters are completely gone and it doesn't have any way to boost it's attack other than Meteor Mash hax and has no way to recover it's health either. MSab also needs to abuse that recover button if it doesn't want to be put into ko range thanks to it's low hp and kinda requires good amount of prediction to use effectively to be honest. They are both influential pokemons as to be expected of top-tier mons but neither are op (at least imo).

Btw Mega Metagross can use Grass Knot to deal with bulky waters like Quagsire, Suicune and Slowbro :/

 

[NZ744]

I don't think either of them even warrant a suspect test. While both MMeta and MSab are amazing they both have their share of flaws that keeps them from doing their jobs flawlessly or consistently. Like you said, MMeta can't sweep the opposite team unless it's checks and counters are completely gone and it doesn't have any way to boost it's attack other than Meteor Mash hax and has no way to recover it's health either. MSab also needs to abuse that recover button if it doesn't want to be put into ko range thanks to it's low hp and kinda requires good amount of prediction to use effectively to be honest. They are both influential pokemons as to be expected of top-tier mons but neither are op (at least imo).

Btw Mega Metagross can use Grass Knot to deal with bulky waters like Quagsire, Suicune and Slowbro :/

You're wrong on so many things. Mega Sab barely has any flaws that prevents him from doing what he does consistently. Having to use recover is it's flaw? What kind of stupid logic is that? And no, it doesn't require any prediction. And even if you're low, it can come in on pretty much any support/defensive pokemon with 0 things to worry about. It's that good. And MegaGross has Power up Punch and Hone Claws for boosting attack btw. Grass Knot comes with sacrificing a moveslot so Metagross loses coverage and now gets walled by other things.

 

[Karxrida]

You're wrong on so many things. Mega Sab barely has any flaws that prevents him from doing what he does consistently. Having to use recover is it's flaw? What kind of stupid logic is that? And no, it doesn't require any prediction. And even if you're low, it can come in on pretty much any support/defensive pokemon with 0 things to worry about. It's that good. And MegaGross has Power up Punch and Hone Claws for boosting attack btw. Grass Knot comes with sacrificing a moveslot so Metagross loses coverage and now gets walled by other things.

I believe he was talking about how it doesn't have Lefties so it needs to heal itself a lot more frequently. The low speed is also pretty annoying since you can't outspeed pretty much anything and have to keep taking hits from stuff like Slowbro without being able to throw out a Will-O or wear them down without risking the KO (I know Bro doesn't care about burns, but I hope you get my drift).

Power-Up Punch and Hone Claws aren't exactly the bet options for Metagross either when it has to run STAB + Hammer Arm/Earthquake to do its job, kinda like how using Grass Knot forces you to give up coverage. :o

 

[NZ744]

I believe he was talking about how it doesn't have Lefties so it needs to heal itself a lot more frequently. The low speed is also pretty annoying since you can't outspeed pretty much anything and have to keep taking hits from stuff like Slowbro without being able to throw out a Will-O or wear them down without risking the KO (I know Bro doesn't care about burns, but I hope you get my drift).

Take the hit then burn it and use recover. It's simple as that. Special attackers can force out the utility set but the CM set can just set up a CM and take hits more comfortably.

Power-Up Punch and Hone Claws aren't exactly the bet options for Metagross either when it has to run STAB + Hammer Arm/Earthquake to do its job, kinda like how using Grass Knot forces you to give up coverage. :o

Best option or not, it's viable. GKnot is also viable. They have their drawbacks but that's not what i was talking about. I just mentioned it gets a viable boosting move.