Why didn't you calc with life orb? Unless clef runs special defense investment it's always 2HKOed by LO Leaf Storm after rocks.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Would giga drain recover enough? Maybe if Serperior has leftovers, but then Clefable could run Toxic, but then Serperior could put up a substitute, but Unaware Clefable usually runs Wish + Protect that has much more PP...
Hold on, I need to think about this.
I just want to bring up some other moves Serperior can use that haven't been mentioned. Firstly, I think Synthesis could be a good move to recover that LO damage in lieu of Giga Drain. Substitute can be used in the face of Rotom-W, since none of its moves can break your sub and you can avoid Will-o-wisp (though I guess why not just click Leaf Storm against Rotom-W?). Gastro Acid is... gimmicky. I do really like Glare the more I think about it, even though it's already been brought up. You get to paralyze ground types, which gives Serperior another niche.
Finally. Fucking finally.
Anyway, from my experience, Substitute is great in the last slot. Set one up against and defensive mon and you can quickly and easily boost up. Giga Drain is also excellent because of Leaf Storm's terrible PP.
Glare/Leech Seed/Knock Off/Screens are good for switch ins (Sub too sometimes..)
I even tried Wring Out (120pwr Normal type against foes with 100% HP). Not so bad against fire types but that's very situational.
I'm so happy Contrary Serperior is finally legal you guys TT_TT
Getting hit by a Shadow Ball or Crunch and getting a defensive boost is one of the best feelings ever.
Anyway, from my experience, Substitute is great in the last slot. Set one up against and defensive mon and you can quickly and easily boost up. Giga Drain is also excellent because of Leaf Storm's terrible PP.
Glare/Leech Seed/Knock Off/Screens are good for switch ins (Sub too sometimes..)
I even tried Wring Out (120pwr Normal type against foes with 100% HP). Not so bad against fire types but that's very situational.
I'm so happy Contrary Serperior is finally legal you guys TT_TT
Getting hit by a Shadow Ball or Crunch and getting a defensive boost is one of the best feelings ever.
Oops, I accidentally took the dual screens set and then just put in 252 evs for special attack, and put in leaf storm. Here's the real calc for life orb leaf storm.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
so yea greninjas movepool is feelin pretty froggy and has basically made it invalidate any kind of resistance based bulky offense/semi stall. these archetypes saw a lot of use among the top players pre oras and i think they are a big part of what made the metagame so enjoyable before because they allow for switchability as well as enough offense generated to overcome stall (which generally leads to more skill based games in my experience). i feel hard pressed to even pivot around this nikkas coverage when its getting stab on everything. i thought low kick was just a lip service thing at first but its getting pretty relevant usage and made me feel silly when lickilicky took a few to the boca.
Current Metagame Trends I have seen in some replays on the 1650+ (top 220) ladder
**Many stall teams and many teams prepared for stall - Especially when you look at replays from top 25 guys, you see very much stall and 4/5 are with Mega Sableye. Many battles at the top ladder have pokemon prepared for it such as Skill Swap Azelf or Cresselia
**Many Bisharps and Keldeo's. Really, if you just go to http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ and search for a mid or top ladder player, you see either Keldeo or Bisharp in every game. Thundurus was also a pokemon I saw in many replays. Prankster T-Wave is awesome and Bisharp's Defiant in combination with its ability to pursuit trap the latis, azelf, gothitelle and cresselia is awesome.
**Mega Venusaur has competition from Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro as a mega slot on stall teams, but one thing that's nice about it is that many teams are not prepared for it. People are so prepared for Mega Sableye and other annoying mega's that they forget how annoying Mega Venusaur can be
**Many stall teams and many teams prepared for stall - Especially when you look at replays from top 25 guys, you see very much stall and 4/5 are with Mega Sableye. Many battles at the top ladder have pokemon prepared for it such as Skill Swap Azelf or Cresselia
**Many Bisharps and Keldeo's. Really, if you just go to http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ and search for a mid or top ladder player, you see either Keldeo or Bisharp in every game. Thundurus was also a pokemon I saw in many replays. Prankster T-Wave is awesome and Bisharp's Defiant in combination with its ability to pursuit trap the latis, azelf, gothitelle and cresselia is awesome.
**Mega Venusaur has competition from Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro as a mega slot on stall teams, but one thing that's nice about it is that many teams are not prepared for it. People are so prepared for Mega Sableye and other annoying mega's that they forget how annoying Mega Venusaur can be
Assault Vest tangrowth is pretty awesome. It can take a hit from greninja or latios or specs sylveon and knock off their item making them pretty laughable for damage output afterwards (in which you just switch out to regen the hp and go to your real counter). Not to mention it straight hard counters specsdeo, mono attacking manaphy, swampert, actually it just flat destroys rain teams in general. It sponges up so much stuff and is great for ascertaining what move a choice locked mon is using when you don't feel like guessing. It can also work as a lure -- you can earthquake heatran while they set up rocks, you can ancient power talonflame while they swords dance, and so on.
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 314-372 (77.9 - 92.3%)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 314-372 (77.9 - 92.3%)
Tangrowth is pretty cool indeed but I find it hard to put on my teams. Other bulky grass types like Ferrothorn, Amoonguss and Celebi have the ability to gain momentum, set hazards, stop setup sweepers or status them. Tangrowth either has to rely on Regenerator as its only recovery because AV stops him using Leech Seed, toxic and more and the PDef set with leech seed (and often sleep powder) dies against every strong special attack. AV is a nice answer to Keldeo, Latios and Mega Swampert, but Celebi and Amoonguss (not latios) are good answers too and they have more utility than Tangrowth in my opinion
I think the reason it works for me is that it draws in heatran, specifically, and absolutely nails it. It is otherwise a fairly troublesome pokemon for me. Compared to the other grasses that you mentioned, tangrowth just has a perfect mix of things that I needed ( convincingly beats specsdeo, isn't weak to fairy, can't be trapped by zone, and has Knock Off in it's movepool to weaken one-trick-pony threats). All of those together makes it a unique grass type.
Am I allowed to talk about the suspect ladder here? I don't see why not, seeing as how it's the only playable OU meta on PS right now unless I'm blind or something.
So far I am REALLY enjoying a Greninjaless meta at the moment. Balanced teams are a LOT more viable without the frog being around, as they no longer have to worry about playing around it all the time and weakening themselves down. Offense is also less restrictive as well, seeing as it no longer has to depend on stuff like Scarf Keldeo, T-wave Thundurus-I, Mega Lop and Scep, and Scarf Magneton. It was just such an annoying Pokemon, and it really opens the door for bulkier teams to shine again as well as limiting offense to a pool of checks.
One thing for sure is that Keldeo is basically everywhere on the suspect ladder. Although there's basically nothing that can adequately replace everything Greninja could do, Keldeo is about as close as you can get. All out offensive sets with Life Orb or Expert Belt is actually pretty good at the moment, seeing as how very little can switch into its moves, and E-Belt can very easily bluff a Choice set since both Scarf and Specs are commonly used these days. Clefable is seeing a significant rise as well now that balanced is better again, and that's one HUGE thorn in its side out of the way.
That's all I can really say at the moment seeing as how the ladder has only been up a few days, but I've already seen such a dramatic improvement that it only further makes me want to ban Greninja when the time comes. For anyone that is on the fence about Greninja but doesn't plan on getting reqs, I still recommend you go try out the ladder and see for yourself what I mean. It may not seem too different at first, but once you realize how much less pressured you feel by using a slower, bulkier team or an offensive team that provides many free opportunities for Greninja to come in for free, you'll see how it makes for a much smoother metagame.
So far I am REALLY enjoying a Greninjaless meta at the moment. Balanced teams are a LOT more viable without the frog being around, as they no longer have to worry about playing around it all the time and weakening themselves down. Offense is also less restrictive as well, seeing as it no longer has to depend on stuff like Scarf Keldeo, T-wave Thundurus-I, Mega Lop and Scep, and Scarf Magneton. It was just such an annoying Pokemon, and it really opens the door for bulkier teams to shine again as well as limiting offense to a pool of checks.
One thing for sure is that Keldeo is basically everywhere on the suspect ladder. Although there's basically nothing that can adequately replace everything Greninja could do, Keldeo is about as close as you can get. All out offensive sets with Life Orb or Expert Belt is actually pretty good at the moment, seeing as how very little can switch into its moves, and E-Belt can very easily bluff a Choice set since both Scarf and Specs are commonly used these days. Clefable is seeing a significant rise as well now that balanced is better again, and that's one HUGE thorn in its side out of the way.
That's all I can really say at the moment seeing as how the ladder has only been up a few days, but I've already seen such a dramatic improvement that it only further makes me want to ban Greninja when the time comes. For anyone that is on the fence about Greninja but doesn't plan on getting reqs, I still recommend you go try out the ladder and see for yourself what I mean. It may not seem too different at first, but once you realize how much less pressured you feel by using a slower, bulkier team or an offensive team that provides many free opportunities for Greninja to come in for free, you'll see how it makes for a much smoother metagame.
Frankly, one Pokemon I've had an easier time using in this ladder is Mega Diancie as she needn't worry about Surf/Hydro Pump from Greninja ruining her day, assuming you aren't running rock polish sets. I also notice the speed tiers have gone down a bit, meaning I'm not seeing so much scarf Latios/Keldeo ready to surprise your base 110 mon. It just feels a lot easier to breathe in this metagame.
Speaking of the suspect ladder.
Now that Greninja is banned I'm seeing less and less scarf keldeo who acted as a sort of check... I suppose for it and me too like Gary2346 am starting to see orb keldeo's benefits.
In a way Keldeo might seem greninja's heir, though much weaker without his speed, spikes, gunk shot stab on everything and so on, he still has that lovely Secret Sword coupled with powerfuls Scalds and hydro Pump, though the problem with him is that being choiced he's pretty much locked, so he can be played around more easily on defensive teams.
Keldeo-Resolute (Keldeo-R) @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ghost]/Scald/ Icy Wind
Now, taunt might seem strange on Keldeo but it allows him to stop a great deal of threats for using Keldoe as set up fodder, and keeping up pressure against defensive teams.
For example iron defense or crobro is completely stopped by taunt, so is tail glow+rain dance manaphy, who now has troubles recovering health and being a threat in general, stuff like amoonguss cannot use keldeo as "spore fodder", seed bomb less chesnaughts while also taunting mew in order to stop it from recovering hydro pump's damage.
Orbdeo's problem is mostly the fact that here he cannot spam scald freely just like the choice sets, and that hydro pump may sometimes miss on you causing you a great deal of mental pain, but still hydro pumps retain fantastic firepower, allowing you to 2hko even calm 96 sdef clefable.
Great partners are pursuit mega megagross, able to trap latwins easily for keldeo, scarftar (though sandstorm damage is a pain with orb).
Scarf Lantherian also needs a mention, having great sinergy with Keldeo, while also being able thanks to intimidate, coverage and scarf to force switches, allowing an easier "entry" for Keldoe to start.
It is also fun when Sableye switch ins on Secret Sword, only to get a shitload of damage after that.
I prefer mostly hp ghost because it allows me to hit for good damage latwins, starmie on the switch and megabro but Icy Wind is also a great option, allowing you to take on better latwins who switch on Keldeo, scald is also an okay option if you don't want to rely on hydro's accuracy.
Now that Greninja is banned I'm seeing less and less scarf keldeo who acted as a sort of check... I suppose for it and me too like Gary2346 am starting to see orb keldeo's benefits.
In a way Keldeo might seem greninja's heir, though much weaker without his speed, spikes, gunk shot stab on everything and so on, he still has that lovely Secret Sword coupled with powerfuls Scalds and hydro Pump, though the problem with him is that being choiced he's pretty much locked, so he can be played around more easily on defensive teams.
Keldeo-Resolute (Keldeo-R) @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ghost]/Scald/ Icy Wind
Now, taunt might seem strange on Keldeo but it allows him to stop a great deal of threats for using Keldoe as set up fodder, and keeping up pressure against defensive teams.
For example iron defense or crobro is completely stopped by taunt, so is tail glow+rain dance manaphy, who now has troubles recovering health and being a threat in general, stuff like amoonguss cannot use keldeo as "spore fodder", seed bomb less chesnaughts while also taunting mew in order to stop it from recovering hydro pump's damage.
Orbdeo's problem is mostly the fact that here he cannot spam scald freely just like the choice sets, and that hydro pump may sometimes miss on you causing you a great deal of mental pain, but still hydro pumps retain fantastic firepower, allowing you to 2hko even calm 96 sdef clefable.
Great partners are pursuit mega megagross, able to trap latwins easily for keldeo, scarftar (though sandstorm damage is a pain with orb).
Scarf Lantherian also needs a mention, having great sinergy with Keldeo, while also being able thanks to intimidate, coverage and scarf to force switches, allowing an easier "entry" for Keldoe to start.
It is also fun when Sableye switch ins on Secret Sword, only to get a shitload of damage after that.
I prefer mostly hp ghost because it allows me to hit for good damage latwins, starmie on the switch and megabro but Icy Wind is also a great option, allowing you to take on better latwins who switch on Keldeo, scald is also an okay option if you don't want to rely on hydro's accuracy.
Just make the Attack IV a 0 for minimizing Foul Play damage.Speaking of the suspect ladder.
Now that Greninja is banned I'm seeing less and less scarf keldeo who acted as a sort of check... I suppose for it and me too like Gary2346 am starting to see orb keldeo's benefits.
In a way Keldeo might seem greninja's heir, though much weaker without his speed, spikes, gunk shot stab on everything and so on, he still has that lovely Secret Sword coupled with powerfuls Scalds and hydro Pump, though the problem with him is that being choiced he's pretty much locked, so he can be played around more easily on defensive teams.
Keldeo-Resolute (Keldeo-R) @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ghost]/Scald/ Icy Wind
Now, taunt might seem strange on Keldeo but it allows him to stop a great deal of threats for using Keldoe as set up fodder, and keeping up pressure against defensive teams.
For example iron defense or crobro is completely stopped by taunt, so is tail glow+rain dance manaphy, who now has troubles recovering health and being a threat in general, stuff like amoonguss cannot use keldeo as "spore fodder", seed bomb less chesnaughts while also taunting mew in order to stop it from recovering hydro pump's damage.
Orbdeo's problem is mostly the fact that here he cannot spam scald freely just like the choice sets, and that hydro pump may sometimes miss on you causing you a great deal of mental pain, but still hydro pumps retain fantastic firepower, allowing you to 2hko even calm 96 sdef clefable.
Great partners are pursuit mega megagross, able to trap latwins easily for keldeo, scarftar (though sandstorm damage is a pain with orb).
Scarf Lantherian also needs a mention, having great sinergy with Keldeo, while also being able thanks to intimidate, coverage and scarf to force switches, allowing an easier "entry" for Keldoe to start.
It is also fun when Sableye switch ins on Secret Sword, only to get a shitload of damage after that.
I prefer mostly hp ghost because it allows me to hit for good damage latwins, starmie on the switch and megabro but Icy Wind is also a great option, allowing you to take on better latwins who switch on Keldeo, scald is also an okay option if you don't want to rely on hydro's accuracy.
Personally not sold on Taunt, since you murder Chansey already, can't use it on Mega Sableye, and Clefable will still threaten you unless you want to rely on hitting Hydro Pump twice.
You should also probably slash HP Electric, since it lets you hit Slowbro and (Mega) Gyarados.
Since we're on the topic of the suspect ladder ...
CM Clefable has always had a strong presence in sixth generation OU, thanks to its newly acquired Fairy-typing. However, as we all know, Gunk Shot Greninja was introduced in ORAS and the one Pokemon that used to be set-up fodder became CM Clefable's biggest check. With the suspect ladder in play, CM Clefable has a much easier time performing its role as a capable sweeper and brings back a lot of more viability than when Greninja was still allowed.
On the suspect ladder, Keldeo gets another chance at becoming the best offensive Water-type Pokemon in OU since Greninja has been removed. The Scarf set makes for a deadly cleaner and potent revenge killer, capable of KOing Mega Sceptile and Scarfed Landorus-T while grabbing a clean 2HKO on Mega Metagross. It's other variants all have their own merits and are capable of putting in a lot of work versus the correct team archetype. Keldeo is much more "free" with the absence of Greninja and that's a change that I find myself enjoying.
CM Clefable has always had a strong presence in sixth generation OU, thanks to its newly acquired Fairy-typing. However, as we all know, Gunk Shot Greninja was introduced in ORAS and the one Pokemon that used to be set-up fodder became CM Clefable's biggest check. With the suspect ladder in play, CM Clefable has a much easier time performing its role as a capable sweeper and brings back a lot of more viability than when Greninja was still allowed.
On the suspect ladder, Keldeo gets another chance at becoming the best offensive Water-type Pokemon in OU since Greninja has been removed. The Scarf set makes for a deadly cleaner and potent revenge killer, capable of KOing Mega Sceptile and Scarfed Landorus-T while grabbing a clean 2HKO on Mega Metagross. It's other variants all have their own merits and are capable of putting in a lot of work versus the correct team archetype. Keldeo is much more "free" with the absence of Greninja and that's a change that I find myself enjoying.
Last edited:
Metagross is a monster sweet jesus. Here's a question for you: which non-scarfer pokemon outspeeds it and can hit it with STAB weakness? (we're trying to ohko it with a life orb or expert belt so we're not scarf locked into earthquake) We're looking for fire/ground/dark/ghost with 111+ speed.
Houndoom-Mega (fuck yes this things speed tier is so good without greninja and everyone spamming latis metagross and bisharp)
Talonflame (i love this bird)
Dugtrio (need sash)
Absol-Mega (loses 1v1 unless you go special dark pulse)
Sharpedo-Mega (only outspeeds once)
Weavile (loses 1v1)
Swampert-Mega in rain
Manetric-Mega - Overheat
Everything else like raikou or noivern needs choice specs and excadrill or landorus needs a scarf.
Obviously you can wear it down, status, priority, hazards etc. But if purely and supremely outspeeding and OHKOing metagross is something you want to do, without any drawbacks except 90% acc, manetric seems the clear choice to me.
Houndoom-Mega (fuck yes this things speed tier is so good without greninja and everyone spamming latis metagross and bisharp)
Talonflame (i love this bird)
Dugtrio (need sash)
Absol-Mega (loses 1v1 unless you go special dark pulse)
Sharpedo-Mega (only outspeeds once)
Weavile (loses 1v1)
Swampert-Mega in rain
Manetric-Mega - Overheat
Everything else like raikou or noivern needs choice specs and excadrill or landorus needs a scarf.
Obviously you can wear it down, status, priority, hazards etc. But if purely and supremely outspeeding and OHKOing metagross is something you want to do, without any drawbacks except 90% acc, manetric seems the clear choice to me.
I'm really new and quite into the Hyper Offensive playstyle. Just out of curiosity though, how viable is it in the current metagame? Are other playstyles much better options than HO?
Just before the Greninja suspect HO was the most dominant playstyle. HO is still definitely viable and many teams on the high ladder use HO.
Many of the HO teams are build with a Stealth Rocks lead (Terrakion, Azelf, Mamoswine, Garchomp) and 5 offensive pokemon which support each other in defeating the oppossing the oppossing team as quickly as possible (for example Greninja which weakens teams so DD Char-X can sweep)
Ah, I see. How's Lucario for a HO OU team? He's my favourite Pokemon and it'd be kinda cool to use him on P.S
Thanks for replying :)
I haven't used him extensively myself, but while he's difficult to use in terms of finding a point to set up, if you use him as a late game cleaner he can be terrifying. Basically, you just set your team to clear out his checks and counters, get him to +2 with Swords Dance (since the physical set is arguably the best) when his checks and counters are worn, and watch him clean up with Extreme Speed and Close Combat. In hindsight, this describes just about every offensive mon in the tier, but due to Lucario's speed and frailty, it's even more important to save him until you know for a fact that your opponent can no longer check him since he can be easily forced out.
Speaking of the suspect ladder.
Now that Greninja is banned I'm seeing less and less scarf keldeo who acted as a sort of check... I suppose for it and me too like Gary2346 am starting to see orb keldeo's benefits.
In a way Keldeo might seem greninja's heir, though much weaker without his speed, spikes, gunk shot stab on everything and so on, he still has that lovely Secret Sword coupled with powerfuls Scalds and hydro Pump, though the problem with him is that being choiced he's pretty much locked, so he can be played around more easily on defensive teams.
Keldeo-Resolute (Keldeo-R) @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ghost]/Scald/ Icy Wind
Keldeo's great, but strangely, I've been finding more of what I would think is Greninja's best replacement popping up more often on my offense teams: offensive Starmie.
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
That was pretty much the whole reason why Starmie fell to UU for the first time in Smogon tiers: it was outclassed by Greninja as a fast special attacking Water type (among other things of course, like Defog wars and Aegislash). With Greninja gone, offensive Starmie returns to its trademark troll Speed tier, and if you think about it, both Starmie and Greninja outspeed most of the same important Pokemon found on offense, which Keldeo cannot. This includes Thundurus and all the dangerous new 110 megas and the old 110s like Lati@s. On top of that, Starmie almost has the insane coverage of Greninja, Psyshock as a semi-analogue to Gunk Shot/Low Kick to hit special tanks on the switch (like AV Azumarill) and Secret Sword if we're comparing with Keldeo, great abilities, and great utility if you want to go that route. Analytic also helps offset the power difference of Protean by just a little, even if it's not too reliable.
One of the bad things, though, is that offensive Starmie can't really touch Ferrothorn unlike the other two waters, but I guess that's not too bad. I could talk more about its Pros/Cons (like its needing much more prior damage to cleansweep compared to Ninja) but I'm too lazy. I definitely suggest trying out offensive Starmie, regardless, if you're wondering about a replacement for Greninja on some of your guys' teams.
HP Fire on Starmie is specifically used on various versions of offensive Starmie to do just that, to beat Ferrothorn. This allows helps its matchup a bit against opposing Scizors and the variant itself pairs really great with Weavile. So if Ferrothorn is giving your Starmie trouble try HP Fire out somewhere on there.Keldeo's great, but strangely, I've been finding more of what I would think is Greninja's best replacement popping up more often on my offense teams: offensive Starmie.
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
That was pretty much the whole reason why Starmie fell to UU for the first time in Smogon tiers: it was outclassed by Greninja as a fast special attacking Water type (among other things of course, like Defog wars and Aegislash). With Greninja gone, offensive Starmie returns to its trademark troll Speed tier, and if you think about it, both Starmie and Greninja outspeed most of the same important Pokemon found on offense, which Keldeo cannot. This includes Thundurus and all the dangerous new 110 megas and the old 110s like Lati@s. On top of that, Starmie almost has the insane coverage of Greninja, Psyshock as a semi-analogue to Gunk Shot/Low Kick to hit special tanks on the switch (like AV Azumarill) and Secret Sword if we're comparing with Keldeo, great abilities, and great utility if you want to go that route. Analytic also helps offset the power difference of Protean by just a little, even if it's not too reliable.
One of the bad things, though, is that offensive Starmie can't really touch Ferrothorn unlike the other two waters, but I guess that's not too bad. I could talk more about its Pros/Cons (like its needing much more prior damage to cleansweep compared to Ninja) but I'm too lazy. I definitely suggest trying out offensive Starmie, regardless, if you're wondering about a replacement for Greninja on some of your guys' teams.
I know I probably sound like a broken record considering that it's been getting a shit ton of hype recently, but oh my god Klefki is so good at the moment. Even though it lost a SLIGHT niche in being able to check Greninja really well (talking about suspect meta obviously) but its Spike stacking abilities are godly. Its defensive typing is incredible, and with lots of investment it basically guarantees a free switch-in every time Latios or Latias come in. They can't reliably Defog on it either or else they risk catching a T-wave or a Toxic to the dome, which practically renders them useless. It's also an outstanding check to Mega Gard which is a really underrated threat atm, as well as just fucking every sweeper in the tier that isn't behind a Sub or isn't named Mega Diance. Magnet Rise is just so trollish, letting it completely set up hazards on the best revenge killer in OU, Landorus-T, and the equally as threatening Landorus-I, whom can't really touch it outside of Focus Blast. It just sets up Spikes on such a huge portion of the meta, while also being a solid check to many dangerous threats and set up sweepers, so I just really think that it deserves a lot more usage than it's getting because it fits so well on a lot of more offensively inclined teams.
Also I don't know why but Chesnaught seems a lot more common too. Greninja was obviously a huge thorn in its side which kept it from being as useful on more defensive teams than something like Ferrothorn, but with Greninja out of the picture, it has more room to breath. Yeah I mean Azumarill is still annoying as well as the Latis and Mega Metagross, but it's an outstanding check to other important things such as Bisharp, Breloom, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Gyarados, Conk, T-tar, and Terrakion. It can also set up Spikes, has Spiky Shield to wear down physical attackers as well as giving it a free turn of Lefties, and the introduction of Drain Punch to its movepool keeps it from being basically a free switch into Heatran while also giving it yet another source of recovery, so Synthesis isn't really needed. Just pair that nigga up with something like Bro or Heatran to take on Azu, Clef, Mega Gross, and the Lati twins better, and you have yourself a nasty core. I mean yeah Chesnaught got a bit more viable with Ninja gone, but it just kind of surprises me how I'm basically seeing it on a myriad of balanced teams.
Also I don't know why but Chesnaught seems a lot more common too. Greninja was obviously a huge thorn in its side which kept it from being as useful on more defensive teams than something like Ferrothorn, but with Greninja out of the picture, it has more room to breath. Yeah I mean Azumarill is still annoying as well as the Latis and Mega Metagross, but it's an outstanding check to other important things such as Bisharp, Breloom, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Gyarados, Conk, T-tar, and Terrakion. It can also set up Spikes, has Spiky Shield to wear down physical attackers as well as giving it a free turn of Lefties, and the introduction of Drain Punch to its movepool keeps it from being basically a free switch into Heatran while also giving it yet another source of recovery, so Synthesis isn't really needed. Just pair that nigga up with something like Bro or Heatran to take on Azu, Clef, Mega Gross, and the Lati twins better, and you have yourself a nasty core. I mean yeah Chesnaught got a bit more viable with Ninja gone, but it just kind of surprises me how I'm basically seeing it on a myriad of balanced teams.
Yeah, I personally love using offensive Starmie with HP Fire alongside Bulky DD Gyarados. Ferrothorn can be annoying for Gyarados since it avoids Bounce with Protect and breaks Gyarados's Subs with Power Whip or a full power Gyro Ball, so Starmie can lure it in and kill it off with HP Fire while removing its hazards. This, of course, makes it even easier for Gyarados to operate since it won't have to worry about Stealth Rock, and it also gives you room for more hazards since you don't have to worry about removing your own with Defog. The two clash a bit with regards to defensive synergy, but their common typing is handy since Starmie can use Analytic-boosted attacks to wear down the opponent's main answers to offensive Waters so that Gyarados can clean up later. Also, I definitely agree with Questro that offensive Starmie is a pretty cool offensive Pokemon in general. It's basically the fastest non-Mega in OU with Greninja gone outside of Jolly Talonflame and pre-Mega Sceptile (which will eventually Mega evolve anyway), so it makes a decent revenge killer for pretty much anything without a speed boost (you still have to worry about a few Megas, but your opponent can only run one of those per team and can't even use one if they already have one of the slower Megas). Starmie in general has been more attractive to me lately due to the increasing tendency for me to want to run Rapid Spin over Defog so that I can use more hazards of my own, and the lack of Greninja in this new metagame has made Starmie stand out far more as an offensive Water.
Also, has anyone else tinkered with Toxic Spikes? Venusaur is less common now, and Tentacruel will lose a sizable niche with Greninja gone, so grounded Poison-types are less of an issue. They help to wear down some pretty annoying defensive Pokemon such as Mega Sableye (provided you can avoid having them bounced back) and Mew, which helps you break down some defensive cores more easily. Even if you can only afford to get up one layer, that passive damage is still like switching into neutral Stealth Rock damage every turn, so it can really add up. The trick is finding a viable user of the move, but you could probably get creative with something like Scolipede (the one I've been using, personally) or Dragalge.
On hyper offensive builds especially those with cleaners such as M-Sharpedo Scolipede is actually a good user of the move Toxic Spikes. On stall Tentacruel can provide this if need to apply pressure for the team. The decrease of M-Venusaur does make this a bit more viable although it's unfortunate that the Latis, Heatran, and various other immune Pokemon. Also as you mentioned working around M-Sableye is important considering its prominence on Stall.
- Status