Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Gary]

Anyone else feel metagame is a bit stale already, or at least like no variety in teams they face?

Seems like I face some sort of balance team every game I play. Its literally ScarfLando-T, Rotom-W, heatran, ferrothorn, clefable, and Latia@s every where i go, not saying these mons are bad, but just seems everyone is using them, i wish there was more variety. Only trouble though, i'm wondering is there any room for improvement?

Lando-T is pretty much best scarfer, only niche for another is basically surprise factor.
Rotom-W is amazing pivot with great typing, not much can do what it can do.
Heatran again has unique typing with key resists and bulk
Ferro is prob the most replaceable as there are other bulky grass types, but really that steel type is clutch.
Clefable has great typing and immune to those dragon types. I've seen Sylveon replace it as it can hit harder, but clefable's abilities usually give it the edge. Altaria also used if this is where you want your megaslot.
Lati@s have the most offensive and defensive pressure of any defogger. Mew and Zapdos have fallen out of favor, skarm really only used on stall, Excadrill is meant for sand. MegaScizor can be used, but then you give up a win con, Mandibuzz also a choice, but no offensive pressure, Most interesting option I've seen is Starmie.

This isn't to say all Balance teams are the exact same there is some swapping out of members, I see Gliscor, Hippo, Alomomomola, Celebi, and slowbro sometimes. Other times they throw in an offensive mon or two, or go even bulkier with chansey or something, but overally lot of these teams are similar.

So anyone else seeing this?
Anyone else wish people would be more innovative.

I know this is quite standard for people to use a lot of the same things, but it seems really bad now, in addition this is a new meta where people usually test out new stuff, but yet are using the same old mons.

I agree a lot of my teams that I make all share striking similarities with each other and usually have the same core of Pokemon + two different Pokemon. Although I'm all for trying out new shit, in a metagame where it's basically impossible to prepare for everything, team building has become a bit more restrictive because of it. I find it almost impossible not to run Landorus-T on all my teams simply because it checks a HUGE portion of the metagame, while also being a great pivot in general that can switch into shit such as LO Excadrill, T-tar, and opposing Lando. Latios is also an incredible asset to most offensive teams because it can get rid of hazards while checking a lot of shit and just straight nuking something every time it comes in. Greninja is the best offensive Pokemon in OU that pairs well with basically every good mega, so why wouldn't you use it most of the time? Stall has always been pretty cookie cutter for the most part, but now with even more threats to cover, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same stall team over and over again on the ladder once we discover what's best. I'm already seeing Mega Sableye stall everywhere.

Anyways, a Pokemon that basically rapes a lot of teams at the moment is Mega Gyarados. Its great bulk makes it really hard to revenge kill and most shit on offense is OHKOed by it even at +1, so unless you're packing something like Superpower Scarf Lando-T or Scarf Keldeo, it just wrecks shit. I used it in conjunction with Zone to trap Ferro and Skarm, and it finds it so easy to just completely sweep through balance as well as offense once given a free switch-in. The addition of Crunch to its movepool just made it much more terrifying, seeing as how it can now break through Slowbro. Definitely one of the best Mega evolutions at the moment that a lot of people seem to be sleeping on.

 

[doughboy]

Anyone else feel metagame is a bit stale already, or at least like no variety in teams they face?

Seems like I face some sort of balance team every game I play. Its literally ScarfLando-T, Rotom-W, heatran, ferrothorn, clefable, and Latia@s every where i go, not saying these mons are bad, but just seems everyone is using them, i wish there was more variety. Only trouble though, i'm wondering is there any room for improvement?

Lando-T is pretty much best scarfer, only niche for another is basically surprise factor.
Rotom-W is amazing pivot with great typing, not much can do what it can do.
Heatran again has unique typing with key resists and bulk
Ferro is prob the most replaceable as there are other bulky grass types, but really that steel type is clutch.
Clefable has great typing and immune to those dragon types. I've seen Sylveon replace it as it can hit harder, but clefable's abilities usually give it the edge. Altaria also used if this is where you want your megaslot.
Lati@s have the most offensive and defensive pressure of any defogger. Mew and Zapdos have fallen out of favor, skarm really only used on stall, Excadrill is meant for sand. MegaScizor can be used, but then you give up a win con, Mandibuzz also a choice, but no offensive pressure, Most interesting option I've seen is Starmie.

This isn't to say all Balance teams are the exact same there is some swapping out of members, I see Gliscor, Hippo, Alomomomola, Celebi, and slowbro sometimes. Other times they throw in an offensive mon or two, or go even bulkier with chansey or something, but overally lot of these teams are similar.

So anyone else seeing this?
Anyone else wish people would be more innovative.

I know this is quite standard for people to use a lot of the same things, but it seems really bad now, in addition this is a new meta where people usually test out new stuff, but yet are using the same old mons.

I would agree that the tier is becoming pretty homogenized. Basically its BW1 all over again

• Restriction on viable revenge killers (the big one)
  • Ok so this is a mini-rant about how priority Thunder Wave on something as strong and fast as Thundurus and weather sweepers really warps the metagame. Waaaaaaay back in early BW there was a time when Thundurus-I and Sand Rush Excadrill still roamed the tier. What these pokemon did was essentially eliminate the viability of any scarfer in the metagame. Since Sand Rush Excadrill could not be outsped by any scarfer and was the tier's primary endgame sweeper, team's ditched scarfers in favor with priority and bulky mons that could take at least one hit from drill. IIRC the only widely used scarfer at the time was Scarf Politoed because it could revenge kill Excadrill by changing the weather from rain to sand. Meanwhile since teams ditched scarfers, Thundurus-I's base 111 speed tier was out of reach for most teams so it seemed suuuper fast and broken.
  • So how does that relate to today? Well we are in the same scenario back then, where we have a metagame where people are dissuaded from using scarfers. We traded our Chlorophyll sweepers with equally fast but better Swift Swim pokemon, and we still have Excadrill outspeeding almost every scarfer. Klefki is a decently viable priority Twave user now used on Spikes-stacking teams. Thundurus is one of the tiers primary offensive threats and its priority Thunder Wave lets it cripple or even beat revenge killers that could be used for the powerful-as-hell sweepers that are its teammates. No competent player is going to risk that, so we are basically stuck using Electric-type or Ground-type revenge killers or those that are immune to Thunder Wave. Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Lando-T, Mega-Manectric, Raikou, and Mega-Sceptile have been the tier's primary revenge killers for awhile just because they are immune to Thundy-I's Twave. You'll see Scarf Latios and Keldeo once in a blue moon, but most players won't leave that gap to Thundurus-I in their teambuilding. Its a shame because stuff that would be totally more manageable if people could use a wider variety of scarfers *cough*greninja and zard-x*cough* seems that much more powerful, which is exactly what Thundy-I was like back in BW with Excadrill around. People need scarfers, but shit the only one that can actually take a priority Thunder Wave and a hit from Excadrill at the same time is Lando-T, which is why you see it freaking everywhere.
• Wallbreakers with limited checks
  • So yeah this one makes it so that if you want to play a defensive playstyle you stay within a pool of a couple of mons. So this is where all your pivots come in Lil YoshiXD. How do you stop all these ridiculous wallbreakers on balance? Hint: you can't. So the pivots make sure you don't have to ever let them in and get a strike off in the first place. It doesn't help that they also bring in your wallbreakers into play. In BW1 we saw this Volt-Turn teams using CB Terrakion who could wreck everything except Gliscor at the time
• Trapping
  • Basically makes playing any defensive pokemon a liability and makes wallbreakers with limited checks much easier to use. IDK its just something really lame and I wanted to mention it lol

So yeah, everything new is old again

 

[alexwolf]

I would agree that the tier is becoming pretty homogenized. Basically its BW1 all over again

• Restriction on viable revenge killers (the big one)
  • Ok so this is a mini-rant about how priority Thunder Wave on something as strong and fast as Thundurus and weather sweepers really warps the metagame. Waaaaaaay back in early BW there was a time when Thundurus-I and Sand Rush Excadrill still roamed the tier. What these pokemon did was essentially eliminate the viability of any scarfer in the metagame. Since Sand Rush Excadrill could not be outsped by any scarfer and was the tier's primary endgame sweeper, team's ditched scarfers in favor with priority and bulky mons that could take at least one hit from drill. IIRC the only widely used scarfer at the time was Scarf Politoed because it could revenge kill Excadrill by changing the weather from rain to sand. Meanwhile since teams ditched scarfers, Thundurus-I's base 111 speed tier was out of reach for most teams so it seemed suuuper fast and broken.
  • So how does that relate to today? Well we are in the same scenario back then, where we have a metagame where people are dissuaded from using scarfers. We traded our Chlorophyll sweepers with equally fast but better Swift Swim pokemon, and we still have Excadrill outspeeding almost every scarfer. Klefki is a decently viable priority Twave user now used on Spikes-stacking teams. Thundurus is one of the tiers primary offensive threats and its priority Thunder Wave lets it cripple or even beat revenge killers that could be used for the powerful-as-hell sweepers that are its teammates. No competent player is going to risk that, so we are basically stuck using Electric-type or Ground-type revenge killers or those that are immune to Thunder Wave. Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Lando-T, Mega-Manectric, Raikou, and Mega-Sceptile have been the tier's primary revenge killers for awhile just because they are immune to Thundy-I's Twave. You'll see Scarf Latios and Keldeo once in a blue moon, but most players won't leave that gap to Thundurus-I in their teambuilding. Its a shame because stuff that would be totally more manageable if people could use a wider variety of scarfers *cough*greninja and zard-x*cough* seems that much more powerful, which is exactly what Thundy-I was like back in BW with Excadrill around. People need scarfers, but shit the only one that can actually take a priority Thunder Wave and a hit from Excadrill at the same time is Lando-T, which is why you see it freaking everywhere.
• Wallbreakers with limited checks
  • So yeah this one makes it so that if you want to play a defensive playstyle you stay within a pool of a couple of mons. So this is where all your pivots come in Lil YoshiXD. How do you stop all these ridiculous wallbreakers on balance? Hint: you can't. So the pivots make sure you don't have to ever let them in and get a strike off in the first place. It doesn't help that they also bring in your wallbreakers into play. In BW1 we saw this Volt-Turn teams using CB Terrakion who could wreck everything except Gliscor at the time
• Trapping
  • Basically makes playing any defensive pokemon a liability and makes wallbreakers with limited checks much easier to use. IDK its just something really lame and I wanted to mention it lol

So yeah, everything new is old again

I don't agree with the bolded part. Actually, it's quite the opposite, with all those new speedy offensive threats, such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, Mega Metagross, and the buffed Greninja, revenge killers and priority are more important than ever. For those reasons, scarfers on offense and balance are very common and varied, with options such as Latios, Heatran, Magenzone, Magneton, Jirachi, Hydreigon, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Celebi, and more. Sand and rain teams may invalidate scarfers to an extend, but against sand, we are talking about only one Pokemon the scarfers can't outspeed, Excadrill, which has plenty of viable checks and counters, and is also very weak to priority. Scarfers tend to be useless against rain, i agree, but that's true to an extend for every fast and frail attacker that can't check the Swift Swim users, not to mention that scarfers such as Latios and Keldeo can even outspeed Kabutops and Mega Swampert under rain.

Imo, the only really limiting factor in OU atm is Greninja. Offensive teams have zero reason not to run it, as it combines the roles of cleaner, wallbreaker, and revenge killer in one slot, and it does all of those jobs very well. Bulky offense and balance are the playstyles hurt by Greninja's presence the most, as they can't afford a hit and die strategy that HO employs in order to check Greninja, where most of their members can either avoid the OHKO from Greninja and KO back, deal a big hit with priority, outspeed and KO, or just have sweepers able to set up on Greninja, such as Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Scizor. This means that Greninja is free to take advantage of the majority of the Pokemon bulky offense and balance carry, and with such a limited amount of Pokemon able to reliably check Greninja, the plays start becoming really predictable and the Greninja user can easily take advantage of this. Add to the mix Greninja's versatility, where if you haven't scouted the whole moveset, checks such as Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Mega Scizor, and Rotom-W cannot stay in against Greninja, in fear of getting OHKOed or seriously crippled, and you realize that the amount of pressure Greninja puts to those kinds of teams is unreal.

 

[silver97]

I would agree that the tier is becoming pretty homogenized. Basically its BW1 all over again

• Restriction on viable revenge killers (the big one)
  • Ok so this is a mini-rant about how priority Thunder Wave on something as strong and fast as Thundurus and weather sweepers really warps the metagame. Waaaaaaay back in early BW there was a time when Thundurus-I and Sand Rush Excadrill still roamed the tier. What these pokemon did was essentially eliminate the viability of any scarfer in the metagame. Since Sand Rush Excadrill could not be outsped by any scarfer and was the tier's primary endgame sweeper, team's ditched scarfers in favor with priority and bulky mons that could take at least one hit from drill. IIRC the only widely used scarfer at the time was Scarf Politoed because it could revenge kill Excadrill by changing the weather from rain to sand. Meanwhile since teams ditched scarfers, Thundurus-I's base 111 speed tier was out of reach for most teams so it seemed suuuper fast and broken.
  • So how does that relate to today? Well we are in the same scenario back then, where we have a metagame where people are dissuaded from using scarfers. We traded our Chlorophyll sweepers with equally fast but better Swift Swim pokemon, and we still have Excadrill outspeeding almost every scarfer. Klefki is a decently viable priority Twave user now used on Spikes-stacking teams. Thundurus is one of the tiers primary offensive threats and its priority Thunder Wave lets it cripple or even beat revenge killers that could be used for the powerful-as-hell sweepers that are its teammates. No competent player is going to risk that, so we are basically stuck using Electric-type or Ground-type revenge killers or those that are immune to Thunder Wave. Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Lando-T, Mega-Manectric, Raikou, and Mega-Sceptile have been the tier's primary revenge killers for awhile just because they are immune to Thundy-I's Twave. You'll see Scarf Latios and Keldeo once in a blue moon, but most players won't leave that gap to Thundurus-I in their teambuilding. Its a shame because stuff that would be totally more manageable if people could use a wider variety of scarfers *cough*greninja and zard-x*cough* seems that much more powerful, which is exactly what Thundy-I was like back in BW with Excadrill around. People need scarfers, but shit the only one that can actually take a priority Thunder Wave and a hit from Excadrill at the same time is Lando-T, which is why you see it freaking everywhere.
• Wallbreakers with limited checks
  • So yeah this one makes it so that if you want to play a defensive playstyle you stay within a pool of a couple of mons. So this is where all your pivots come in Lil YoshiXD. How do you stop all these ridiculous wallbreakers on balance? Hint: you can't. So the pivots make sure you don't have to ever let them in and get a strike off in the first place. It doesn't help that they also bring in your wallbreakers into play. In BW1 we saw this Volt-Turn teams using CB Terrakion who could wreck everything except Gliscor at the time
• Trapping
  • Basically makes playing any defensive pokemon a liability and makes wallbreakers with limited checks much easier to use. IDK its just something really lame and I wanted to mention it lol

So yeah, everything new is old again

I agree with the second point, newer games brought us a shitload of insanely hard hitters and walling them is becoming more and more difficult, but wtf man, the meta is filled with scarfers everywhere. Thundy has decreased its usage since like june because yeah, the meta has adapted to it, But atm it isn't the scariest thing you can see in the opposing team, sand teams are becoming rarer because the meta has shifted to deal with them and rain teams are decent but you don't see them very frequently. On the other hand we are filled with fast niggas like ninja manectric, sceptile and lopunny and you know what, scarfers are the best way to deal with them.
Lando-T is fuckin amazing so it's pretty much on every team, limitating other mon's viability, but still scarf keldeo is one of the few answers to greninja in offense, latios is good at revenge killing everything that tries to boost and there are many more (Tran magione/ton ttar just to name a few)

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

alexwolf trouble is most of the scarfers are kind of underwhelming Latios already outspeeds most everything and being locked into Draco meteor or psyshock is not good, also now you can't use it to defog
Heatran, Magnezone and Magneton lack speed to revenge most threats, but still good. Also Mags give ground types free switch ins.
Jirachi lacks a lot of power to revenge things
Hydregion actually is an amazing scarfer
Keldeo lacks a lot of power with scarf
Celebi also lacks a lot of power.

Ideally you want a scarfer to have least enough speed to outspeed jolly mega gyarados, which will also outspeed base 145s. In additions you need to have enough power to kill these threats. In addition u-turn and volt switch are nice additions, lastly you don't want to get locked into an unfavorable moves.

Not many mons can do this, hence why scarfers are low in usage. The best scarfer was Genesect because it combined all those qualities above. Now Lando-T seems to be the closest to doing so.

Also Sand offense still quite good, just get something to deal with rain, fighting types, and stall.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf trouble is most of the scarfers are kind of underwhelming Latios already outspeeds most everything and being locked into Draco meteor or psyshock is not good, also now you can't use it to defog
Heatran, Magnezone and Magneton lack speed to revenge most threats, but still good. Also Mags give ground types free switch ins.
Jirachi lacks a lot of power to revenge things
Hydregion actually is an amazing scarfer
Keldeo lacks a lot of power with scarf
Celebi also lacks a lot of power.

Ideally you want a scarfer to have least enough speed to outspeed jolly mega gyarados, which will also outspeed base 145s. In additions you need to have enough power to kill these threats. In addition u-turn and volt switch are nice additions, lastly you don't want to get locked into an unfavorable moves.

Not many mons can do this, hence why scarfers are low in usage. The best scarfer was Genesect because it combined all those qualities above. Now Lando-T seems to be the closest to doing so.

Also Sand offense still quite good, just get something to deal with rain, fighting types, and stall.

Those are your standards. Each of the scarfers i mentioned provide a unique set of utility to a team, and whether they are worth running depends entirely on one's team. Plus, many of your arguments don't make lot of sense. So what if Latios is already fast, it's also quite strong and has a very strong STAB to revenge kill stuff with, and outspeeding other scarfers is also very sweet. Locked into anything is not good, because after revenge killing your target you are going to be taken advantage of anyway. Lack of Speed on Heatran, Zone, and Magneton is a valid concern, but they make up for it with their bulk, resistances, and Steel-trapping ability in the case of the Magnemite line. Jirachi lacks power but has lots of utility with U-turn, Trick, and Healing Wish, plus it makes for a good pivot with its useful resistance and great bulk, plus Serene Grace Iron Head helps revenge kill stuff a lot. Scarf Keldeo doesn't lack power as a scarfer, as it's able to revenge kill a ton of offensive Pokemon, and Scald is one of the best moves to spam, so it's not such bad move to be locked to. Celebi has similar utility to Jirach with its useful typing, great bulk, Trick, U-turn, and Healing Wish, and also has a much stronger STAB in Leaf Storm.

From what i have seen so far, scarfers have never been more viable in 6th gen.

 

[Ajwf]

Well, the fact that Landorus, Zone/Ton, and Garchomp are your three biggest scarfers kinda lead to the reason WHY thundurus isn't as effective. And it is a bit nice that Landog does take on Exca. However, I'm in complete agreement with the second and third point... one of the mons from BW2 we banned is starting to really become annoying, and that's Manaphy. The biggest issue with Sableye is it forced the usage of this demon. Being able to not take any status damage, rest up instantly and get to +6 in two turns puts stall at an insane disadvantage. It's been like that in XY, nothing's changed for manaphy besides usage. Since Sableye illegitimized Medicham and mostly cleared out Heracorss, Manaphy is a go-to stall breaker due to the ability to recover instantly and out-boost the slow and somewhat frail sableye with ease.

Stall never really had any good counters to this thing before and now with all the extra emphasis on stall, it's becoming a noticeable monster. I mean, this thing cleaves past chansey.... it can be somewhat slow to come to fruition, but Chansey doesn't have a chance. The only hard counter I can think of is the one tehy suggested, which is CM BP celebi. (Unaware Clefable dies as soon as rain comes up...)

 

[tehy]

Cm unaware fable as well

Anyhow cm pass celebi kicks mind blowing amounts of ass in any case (mildly team-dependent, you'll need something capable of handling +6 cmfable if you bp it +6), providing wincons while countering all the cm waters (can boost on m-latias but will lose in the end, unless you can not get crit 16 times). It's like perish song without the passivity.

*points to post in its analysis thread*

I leave you with these words of wisdom

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%

+4 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%)

+6 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +2 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%)

thund-i? Moar liek, thund-s...thundurus setup bait!

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Actually I don't feel that the meta is stale. Greninja obviously limits what balanced teams can run to check it but apart from that I see plenty of variety in my own teams and the ones on the ladder. Its easy to build generic teams using pokemon that you know are top tier. Its also easy enough to adapt your team to these trends and take advantage of these standard pokemon.

One example is Dragon Dance Altaria with Heal Bell over substitute for use on balanced and offensive teams. This can be used to support sweepers or scarfers that are checked by the common thundurus. Assuming you dodge the 25% and kill the thundurus, you can switch out and potentially heal the paralysis with altaria later to either complete the sweep or continue being able to revenge stuff with thundurus out the way. In a way its similar to healing wish latias but you exchange health recovery for keeping your altaria. It also has the benefit in being able to freely switch into rotom-w and other status users. This is one example of a way to gain advantage against what you may see as the standard, "can't be improved" teams.

 

[Poek]

Yeah, CM Celebi is an okay-ish counter to Manaphy, but if you're real, you use Cacturne. Cacturne is inmune to Scald and Psychic, so it doesn't have to invest into SpDef to counter that. Cacturne doesn't only counter Manaphy, but it also deals with Suicune, Mono-Attacking Mega Slowbro, and with a physically defensive spread it counters Mega Gyarados lacking Ice Fang, which I believe its a bad coverage move. It has semi-reliable recovery in Leech Seed/Synthesis, it got Spiky Shield, and has Spikes. It's a really bad mon of course, but if people were running Scarf Noivern for Mega Salamence, then if Manaphy becomes really common, why not?

 

[heritage]

Yeah, CM Celebi is an okay-ish counter to Manaphy, but if you're real, you use Cacturne. Cacturne is inmune to Scald and Psychic, so it doesn't have to invest into SpDef to counter that. Cacturne doesn't only counter Manaphy, but it also deals with Suicune, Mono-Attacking Mega Slowbro, and with a physically defensive spread it counters Mega Gyarados lacking Ice Fang, which I believe its a bad coverage move. It has semi-reliable recovery in Leech Seed/Synthesis, it got Spiky Shield, and has Spikes. It's a really bad mon of course, but if people were running Scarf Noivern for Mega Salamence, then if Manaphy becomes really common, why not?

Because most Manaphy carry Ice Beam.
And just because something checks a strong Pokemon doesn't mean you should use it. Cacturne is almost always dead weight and it's completely outclassed.

 

[Poek]

Because most Manaphy carry Ice Beam.
And just because something checks a strong Pokemon doesn't mean you should use it. Cacturne is almost always dead weight and it's completely outclassed.

I haven't seen one in ORAS, but in late XY it always ran TG + RD with Scald and Psychic to deal with MVenu and Amoonguss. Idk if it had changed but if so, sorry. Btw "And just because something checks a strong Pokemon doesn't mean you should use it" yet people used Weezing and Arcanine in the MMawile era...

 

[Celticpride]

Because most Manaphy carry Ice Beam.
And just because something checks a strong Pokemon doesn't mean you should use it. Cacturne is almost always dead weight and it's completely outclassed.

The set in question is Surf / Rest / Rain Dance / Tail Glow, which is basically impossible for Stall to handle. That set 2HKOs Chansey, and Ferrothorn. Even Mega Slowbro doesn't stand a chance.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 375-442 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 279-329 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Rain: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The thing is, only mono-Water destroys stall that well, dropping Rest, Rain Dance or Tail Glow reduces the effectiveness of the set a lot.

Edit: Ninja'd. I guess non-mono attacking sets work, just the one I posted seems to be the hardest to handle.

 

[heritage]

I haven't seen one in ORAS, but in late XY it always ran TG + RD with Scald and Psychic to deal with MVenu and Amoonguss. Idk if it had changed but if so, sorry. Btw "And just because something checks a strong Pokemon doesn't mean you should use it" yet people used Weezing and Arcanine in the MMawile era...

Well Manaphy isn't a Mega Mawile. Manaphy is much easier to handle than Mawile, and it's not completely broken. I should word that better. Most of the time, unless something is absolutely broken, you shouldn't use useless Pokemon to counter them.

The set in question is Surf / Rest / Rain Dance / Tail Glow, which is basically impossible for Stall to handle. That set 2HKOs Chansey, and Ferrothorn. Even Mega Slowbro doesn't stand a chance.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 375-442 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 279-329 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Rain: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The thing is, only mono-Water destroys stall that well, dropping Rest, Rain Dance or Tail Glow reduces the effectiveness of the set a lot.

Edit: Ninja'd. I guess non-mono attacking sets work, just the one I posted seems to be the hardest to handle.

Yeah, I missed the actual set part, but my point still stands. Cacturne is still unviable in OU and it shouldn't be used on a serious team.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

sd sr garchomp+sd mega heracross takes lives

also, its inaccurate to say that sableye cleared out heracross:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 365-435 (120 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i mean yeah priority wisp but then you wont be able to stop garchomp from setting up rocks

also heracross is hilariously underprepared for

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

tehy how much SPD do you run on clefable as bold is hardly reliable
It sets rain as you
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) you get burned basically its over

with burns you die after second hit: 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%)

 

[Poek]

Well Manaphy isn't a Mega Mawile. Manaphy is much easier to handle than Mawile, and it's not completely broken. I should word that better. Most of the time, unless something is absolutely broken, you shouldn't use useless Pokemon to counter them.

How you're going to tell me Manaphy is easier to handle? We're talking about stall, not offense, and stall doesn't have anything against Manaphy bar obscure and garbage pokemons. The only thing that its decent in the metagame and handles Manaphy is what Tehy suggested, but even then if you start talking about Ice Beams and shit then:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 302-356 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[AM]

Mixed defense unaware cm clefable is one of the few things stall has to prepare for manaphy that isnt niche and gives you the benefits of checking others such as mbro and msableye. In all honesty though i really cant build a stall team anymore without unaware clefable on it. It provides so much utility in one package in checking some extremely dangerous threats and afterwards allows me some freedom in choosing other defensive partners I find suitable.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Mixed defense unaware cm clefable is one of the few things stall has to prepare for manaphy that isnt niche and gives you the benefits of checking others such as mbro and msableye. In all honesty though i really cant build a stall team anymore without unaware clefable on it. It provides so much utility in one package in checking some extremely dangerous threats and afterwards allows me some freedom in choosing other defensive partners I find suitable.

how mixed do you use?

 

[silver97]

how mixed do you use?

Standard one was 252 hp/160 def/96+ Sdef But this aimed to take both a psyshock from latios and a hpump from ninja, but now clefable is not caring anymore about greninja so i don't know which is the best

 

[AM]

Standard one was 252 hp/160 def/96+ Sdef But this aimed to take both a psyshock from latios and a hpump from ninja, but now clefable is not caring anymore about greninja so i don't know which is the best

Psyshock from latios is a pretty good benchmark since you want to recover and miss 2hko but realize that the spread mentioned was in correlation to magic guard not unaware which would now account SR. Havent really been able to calc spreads but Ill typically use that anyways for testing purposes which has been solid in practice. Moonblast heal bell moonlight cm or moonblast rest sleeptalk cm is what i usually use personally.

 

[Poek]

Well, moonlight is fucked up by rain, and wish tect if you get burned then you're done. RestTalk seems the only way Clefable can deal with Manaphy.

 

[jbtc10]

CroFable sounds pretty mediocre and unreliable tbh. Moonblast, Heal Bell, Calm Mind, Moonlight is best for stall imo. Fire moves are generally quite sub par too since having one doesn't do anything to fix your Heatran and Venu problems. Unaware Clef has no chance against RD Manny, unless it's like +SpD which is pretty bad against the rest of the meta and even then it can be a struggle if it's running Scald and you get burned by it. No Manaphy can do much while Ferro is in good shape (bar the currently non-existent HP Fire) but if they've paired it with Magnezone you've lost in preview and if it burns you with Scald, you're toast as well. Main problem with Manaphy is that it's practically impossible to counter every set with one pokemon. Stuff like CM Celebi just dies to the old TG + 3 attacks set. That said, if you have a Chansey + something else that can handle a RD set, you've got your bases covered since Chansey laughs at the TG + 3 attacks set which typically screws over the counters to its other sets.

 

[MANNAT]

Greninja is such an amazing Pokemon. If it runs 244 attack low kick, then chansey is 2HKO'd, suicune is OHKO'd by grass knot, and Empoleon is nearly OHKO'd by low kick as well as some others. Just to find out what you need to counter Greninja, you may just lose one or two Pokemon in the process. However, all the calcs are not the same spread.

calcs

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 351-416 (87 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 374-439 (57.3 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 131-158 (38 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 491-580 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 144-172 (59.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 188-224 (78 - 92.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

14 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 187-221 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

14 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latias: 182-218 (50.1 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 455-538 (116.3 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 304-359 (108.1 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 491-580 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

14 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-291 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

14 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 252-299 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

14 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 134-160 (39 - 46.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 382-452 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 239-282 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 398-471 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 445-525 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 567-676 (166.2 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 393-463 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The point is, Greninja can OHKO-2HKO every relavent mon in the meta with little effort.

 

[AM]

Considering you break stall so easily with tg rd manaphy i really dont see a large merit in tg 3 attacks unless you wanted more coverage or you dont want rain for w/e reason. The ability to break stall with one pokemon and minimal support to me surpasses using a set up sweeper that will still get worn down by offense while not doing as well against stall if you forgo tg rd set. I guess if you need something for hyper offense then its ok i guess but we have a bunch of set up sweepers to fill that void to begin with.