Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[56k]

Also, has anyone else tinkered with Toxic Spikes? Venusaur is less common now, and Tentacruel will lose a sizable niche with Greninja gone, so grounded Poison-types are less of an issue. They help to wear down some pretty annoying defensive Pokemon such as Mega Sableye (provided you can avoid having them bounced back) and Mew, which helps you break down some defensive cores more easily. Even if you can only afford to get up one layer, that passive damage is still like switching into neutral Stealth Rock damage every turn, so it can really add up. The trick is finding a viable user of the move, but you could probably get creative with something like Scolipede (the one I've been using, personally) or Dragalge.

I think toxic spikes definitely have their merits but the main issue as you know is that OU is just ridiculously packed with flying type, steel type, and levitate (not to mention magic guard and magic bounce pokes). LO or sash Scolipede seems like a great user of them because he actually has a tremendous speed tier on the no-greninja-ladder and his STABs have plenty of targets like preventing latis from defogging, maiming fairy spammers, and significantly hurting metagross with a LO earthquake.

I love toxic spikes they're one of my favorite tech moves to run, I think I'll try to use them on an experimental stall/bulky team. I will try to use a poison type that can either reliably counter gardevoir OR reliably counter diancie -- having at least one of those damn fairies covered from the start, on top of having secret tspikes in the waiting, will be a good place to start a stall team. There are really limiting choices to make however because the psyshock/earthpower coverage that those mons bring is pretty tough to deal with.

 

[Machi]

I think toxic spikes definitely have their merits but the main issue as you know is that OU is just ridiculously packed with flying type, steel type, and levitate (not to mention magic guard and magic bounce pokes). LO or sash Scolipede seems like a great user of them because he actually has a tremendous speed tier on the no-greninja-ladder and his STABs have plenty of targets like preventing latis from defogging, maiming fairy spammers, and significantly hurting metagross with a LO earthquake.

I love toxic spikes they're one of my favorite tech moves to run, I think I'll try to use them on an experimental stall/bulky team. I will try to use a poison type that can either reliably counter gardevoir OR reliably counter diancie -- having at least one of those damn fairies covered from the start, on top of having secret tspikes in the waiting, will be a good place to start a stall team. There are really limiting choices to make however because the psyshock/earthpower coverage that those mons bring is pretty tough to deal with.

To be honest rather than having two toxic spikers just stick to one as you've already noted there is just too much fliers and steels in OU, I used it myself in a team to get the reqs. Frankly it is only good lower down the ladder but higher up... It is easily played around or inconsequential since most grounded mons were steel types (or magic guard Clef), and higher up the suspect ladder you start seeing a resurgence of MVenus. At best you can expect to affect maybe 2 members at most, that was about the ratio I saw (three if you're lucky but at they are usually Volt-turners so...). Or you'd have Rain Dance Manaphy, which is also gaining popularity from people cutting and pasting RMTs particularly the stall-turn one.

Adding defoggers to the fray or Excadrill, who is immune to it, really lessens its usability.

 

[56k]

To be honest rather than having two toxic spikers just stick to one as you've already noted there is just too much fliers and steels in OU, I used it myself in a team to get the reqs. Frankly it is only good lower down the ladder but higher up... It is easily played around or inconsequential since most grounded mons were steel types (or magic guard Clef), and higher up the suspect ladder you start seeing a resurgence of MVenus. At best you can expect to affect maybe 2 members at most, that was about the ratio I saw (three if you're lucky but at they are usually Volt-turners so...). Or you'd have Rain Dance Manaphy, which is also gaining popularity from people cutting and pasting RMTs particularly the stall-turn one.

Adding defoggers to the fray or Excadrill, who is immune to it, really lessens its usability.

I didn't have any plans to use two toxic spikes on the same team, only one. I just wanted to make sure that that poison type was actually able to not only hazard but be able to actually use its poison STAB to take care of the more popular fairies (which come with some powerful coverage moves of their own) -- for example scolipede will always outspeed and ohko gardevoir which is great to at least check it. Meanwhile tentacruel could get killed by psyshock instantly. That's just one example of what I meant: if I have a poison type that's laying hazards it better be able to at least kill off some fairies too instead of losing to their coverage.

edit: here's how it's supposed to work in a perfect world. very preliminary team i hashed together but having 2 spinblockers seemed like a neat idea. too bad there's pokemon like kyurem and pinsir that i can't really switch into with my mons
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-197734939

 

[Machi]

I didn't have any plans to use two toxic spikes on the same team, only one. I just wanted to make sure that that poison type was actually able to not only hazard but be able to actually use its poison STAB to take care of the more popular fairies (which come with some powerful coverage moves of their own) -- for example scolipede will always outspeed and ohko gardevoir which is great to at least check it. Meanwhile tentacruel could get killed by psyshock instantly. That's just one example of what I meant: if I have a poison type that's laying hazards it better be able to at least kill off some fairies too instead of losing to their coverage.

To be honest you're better off attacking, or in the case of Tenta using Knock off/Acid Spray, I'm just not too convinced it is too effective in OU especially with how prolific those damned genies are, that is immediately two fliers right there.

 

[56k]

To be honest you're better off attacking, or in the case of Tenta using Knock off/Acid Spray, I'm just not too convinced it is too effective in OU especially with how prolific those damned genies are, that is immediately two fliers right there.

I went to the OU teambuilder on PS and just started counting: 22/46 OU mons are immune to tspikes by typing or levitate. Furthermore there's conk and heracross that can get a guts boost and clef has magic guard so for the sake of round numbers we'll say that 23/46 or exactly half are "unaffected by tspikes". I realize that the tiering isn't quite solid at the moment though. It's also very common to run into teams that have 5 immunities.

 

[SketchUp]

Since Greninja might get the ban in a few weeks, Azumarill looks very interesting at the moment. Greninja was one of the few pokemon that made Azumarill a lot less viable in OU, and while the Assault Vest or Choice Band sets will be better with Greninja banned, the set that stands out after Greninja's possible ban is the Belly Drum set. Greninja could not only live a +6 Aqua Jet if it is at full health, but it could also force Azumarill out so Azumarill couldn't set up yet. Not only is the Greninja ban in favor of Azumarill, but since ORAS move tutors made it possible to run Knock Off and Aqua Jet together, which helps it taking on former counters like Amoonguss, leaving it with only 2 true counters for stall: Mega Venusaur and Quagsire. Combine this with the fact it can switch in on many common threats like Keldeo (bar HP Electric) and Conkeldurr (bar Poison Jab) and it makes an awesome pokemon for offensive teams

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

 

[firehusky]

Since Greninja might get the ban in a few weeks, Azumarill looks very interesting at the moment. Greninja was one of the few pokemon that made Azumarill a lot less viable in OU, and while the Assault Vest or Choice Band sets will be better with Greninja banned, the set that stands out after Greninja's possible ban is the Belly Drum set. Greninja could not only live a +6 Aqua Jet if it is at full health, but it could also force Azumarill out so Azumarill couldn't set up yet. Not only is the Greninja ban in favor of Azumarill, but since ORAS move tutors made it possible to run Knock Off and Aqua Jet together, which helps it taking on former counters like Amoonguss, leaving it with only 2 true counters for stall: Mega Venusaur and Quagsire. Combine this with the fact it can switch in on many common threats like Keldeo (bar HP Electric) and Conkeldurr (bar Poison Jab) and it makes an awesome pokemon for offensive teams

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

I agree with you except the stuff about keldeo. Switching in azumarill on keldeo is always very risky, considering that it takes a lot of damage from it's moves, as well as risking a scald burn.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 161-190 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Kurona]

Since Greninja might get the ban in a few weeks, Azumarill looks very interesting at the moment. Greninja was one of the few pokemon that made Azumarill a lot less viable in OU, and while the Assault Vest or Choice Band sets will be better with Greninja banned, the set that stands out after Greninja's possible ban is the Belly Drum set. Greninja could not only live a +6 Aqua Jet if it is at full health, but it could also force Azumarill out so Azumarill couldn't set up yet. Not only is the Greninja ban in favor of Azumarill, but since ORAS move tutors made it possible to run Knock Off and Aqua Jet together, which helps it taking on former counters like Amoonguss, leaving it with only 2 true counters for stall: Mega Venusaur and Quagsire. Combine this with the fact it can switch in on many common threats like Keldeo (bar HP Electric) and Conkeldurr (bar Poison Jab) and it makes an awesome pokemon for offensive teams

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Why max speed? Surely you should only run enough speed to outspeed a few relevant threats, considering you're only base 60.

 

[clemvador]

It might be because I'm climbing the low ladder, but belly drum azu with a speed passer (I use gliscor because he draws keldeo and other water/ice moves) is just ridiculous. If you manage to go +4/+2 the only things that can stop you are unaware mons and extreme speed (and mega scpetile if it is already M-evolved)

 

[firehusky]

I guess max speed allows you to outrun rotom-w with no speed investment. Also iirc azumarill is base 50, not base 60.

It might be because I'm climbing the low ladder, but belly drum azu with a speed passer (I use gliscor because he draws keldeo and other water/ice moves) is just ridiculous. If you manage to go +4/+2 the only things that can stop you are unaware mons and extreme speed (and mega scpetile if it is already M-evolved)

Lol I've actually seen strategies like these on the mid ladder (1350s suspect ladder), and tbh they're quite easy to counter. It's really obvious as to who he's going to pass the boosts too, and your opponent can easily predict it and make plays accordingly.

 

[Prinz]

Well to outspeed Rotom-W without any speed investiment you need max speed + Jolly nature which is a waste imo because: 1) you lose fire power and bulkyness, especially the second one is important to setup BD much easily and 2) the major part of the Rotom-W runs some speed so you won't outspeed them anyways.

 

[firehusky]

Well to outspeed Rotom-W without any speed investiment you need max speed + Jolly nature which is a waste imo because: 1) you lose fire power and bulkyness, especially the second one is important to setup BD much easily and 2) the major part of the Rotom-W runs some speed so you won't outspeed them anyways.

Yeah, that's definitely true, you don't want to outspeed rotom-w anyways, since you'll have to run jolly, and jolly azu hits like a wet bag. Rotom-w always runs 44 speed anyways.

 

[SketchUp]

Just read the comments regarding Azu's speed. Switched the EVs to the spread listed on the analysis (164 Spe) because Rotom-W runs 44 Spe 90% of the time for Jolly BD Azumarill so actually pointless to run that spread indeed.

 

[totoTavros]

Just read the comments regarding Azu's speed. Switched the EVs to the spread listed on the analysis (164 Spe) because Rotom-W runs 44 Spe 90% of the time for Jolly BD Azumarill so actually pointless to run that spread indeed.

If you're willing to invest enough, you could run 244 to outrun Neutral base 80's.

 

[56k]

Latios gets better and more spammable with every recent ban: mawile and aegislash killed it or set up on it, salamence outsped it and killed it, if greninja goes then you need weird (and kinda bad) stuff like raikou or starmie to outspeed it basically leaving only thundurus as a good revenge killer if you dont want to use a fast mega.

I think the meta is bad now because teams can just use a latios to weaken your dual purpose steel type dragon/bird checks and proceed to easily wear down or kill heatran, klefki, ferrothorn, aggron, whatever then sweep with a pinsir or talonflame or something like that. Other steels like scizor and bisharp really don't take dracos well at all. Furthermore almost every fairy type takes around 40-50% from LO psyshock and is slower anyway, meaning that every time latios comes in against something slower (quite often now, because people aren't trying to outspeed greninja) there's an awful decison to make. If your fairy gets hit with a huge psyshock then you have to heal up and sacrifice a turn to the opponent. Outside of steels and fairies the remaining TTar can indeed pursuit it but he seems to be flawed enough that he's not exactly popular in that role -- this is probably because he sacrifices a lot of momentum to things like keldeo and landorus.

So latios? It is a really poweful mon that has been able to capitalize on the changing environment around it and with greninja possibly gone, and with less fast things around suppresing greninja (and everything slower like latios) tanking draco meteors still isn't as easy as it should be despite the introduction of fairies because most good fairies take too much damage from psyshock to be able to stop latios indefinitely. Where is the fairy/dark poke that we need?

Either way I am not having as much fun in OU as I used to because the game revolves around latios dracos, keldeo (a slower greninja whose spatk stat makes up for protean), voltturn cores, and going for last ditch speed tie flinches with metagross. A deep level of strategy still exists but I think something has gone drastically wrong and the game that has been created isn't very good at all. This is only my own opinion on the subject and I'm sure many people are enjoying pokemon all the same.

 

[Clone]

^you say that as if Latios's only check is Greninja. It's not like Bisharp, Metagross, Tyranitar, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Thundurus, Clefable, Chansey, Sylveon, Weavile, or Mega Sceptile exist or anything...

 

[Gary]

To be honest as much as Latios appreciates Greninja not being present, it's still pressured as fuck at the moment, and I don't see how its become any more threatening than it already was. There are a lot of other Pokemon that hated Greninja that were also good checks to Latios as well, so technically they got better too. In fact, Bisharp is so fucking everywhere on the ladder at the moment that Defog Latios has almost become a liability on most of my teams, and I almost feel forced to run EQ or HP Fire just so I don't allow it to come in any time it wants. Balance also has no problem with Latios at all, because between Clefable, Heatran, and Ferro, it's not like it can just freely spam Draco without worrying about giving either of them a free turn to set up rocks or a CM.

I'd much rather have Latios spamming Draco Meteors than Greninja spamming coverage moves anyway. At least there's lots of reliable answers to Latios out there.

 

[56k]

The issue, for me, is not that it lacks counters -- there are plenty to choose from. I am not suggestion it is too powerful or anything like that. But something is just weird in the suspect ladder and I see almost the exact same archetypes over and over again and I feel stricken by deja vu because the same games and scenarios repeatedly play out. I only blame latis as the culprit because not only is it strong but it is also central to the hazard game that is layered under the simple attacking game.

Most games seem to play out evaluating how damaging a draco will be vs how badly you want to prevent it from defogging and roughly half the games I play always end up with this situation central to how the match plays out in the end. I'll be honest and say I don't know *exactly* what I'm complaining about but something is just off and I'm not enjoying the ladder very much.

 

[Firebird101]

The issue, for me, is not that it lacks counters -- there are plenty to choose from. I am not suggestion it is too powerful or anything like that. But something is just weird in the suspect ladder and I see almost the exact same archetypes over and over again and I feel stricken by deja vu because the same games and scenarios repeatedly play out. I only blame latis as the culprit because not only is it strong but it is also central to the hazard game that is layered under the simple attacking game.

Most games seem to play out evaluating how damaging a draco will be vs how badly you want to prevent it from defogging and roughly half the games I play always end up with this situation central to how the match plays out in the end. I'll be honest and say I don't know *exactly* what I'm complaining about but something is just off and I'm not enjoying the ladder very much.

I think what makes Latios so viable comes mainly from defog and it's sheer power. Defog is a amazing utility move that makes removing hazards almost a non-issue with only drawback as removing hazard from the opponent's side as well as boosting Bisharp's attack but that really is about it. Rapid spin has more issues to use as effectively including not as many viable users but something to remove hazards is practically mandatory on teams so Latios is definitely one of the easiest mons to slap on a team (I personally find Healing wish Latias to be more useful but w/e). Latios isn't the sole overused pokemon though and almost all pokemon gain if Greninja departs, but you are almost bound to run into a team to at least carry one of these mons: Lando-T, Heatran, Keldeo, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Bisharp, Talonflame and one of the Lati twins. But all of these mons have unique and significant qualities that can't be replicated anywhere else so their popularity is certainly not surprising.

But as Gary pointed out, Latios and the other examples I made are far from unbeatable and have notable drawbacks that can be exploited. If the metagame is being overrun by Latios, run a check/counter to it as exploit it. If in case they were to get out of hand like what happened to Greninja in the ORAS transition they will be banned as well and pave way for a better metagame.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

i figure i ought to start another bitch rant on this guy so brb

let's just be really fucking honest here. this guy is beastly. we all know that. however, with greg getting the inevitable boot, i can see him becoming the next most retarded thing ever to exist (i.e. the next potential suspect)

we can probably start by looking at the basic facts. 145 attack + tough claws is pretty godly. metagross hits just about as hard as say, zard X. however, unlike zard X, metagross has extremely good bulk, and more importantly, naturally hits the 110 speed tier, allowing him to tie with Gengar, Megallade, eon twins and every shit inside this speed tier while beating everything else below.

that's not really all. beyond metagross's stabs, you don't really know what the fuck this guy can run. meteor mash and zhb are just about the only guaranteed things imo on metagross's moveset, and from there, he can just pick options like bullet punch, elemental punches, pursuit, hone claws, agility (rock polish is for mainstream idiots), hammer arm, earthquake and grass knot. heck, there are even gravity sets out there, which is kinda stupid. pup sets even have potential in destroying slower teams too.

if anything else, metagross just hits... like a dumpster truck. meteor mash is pretty much an absolute nuke, and 2 shots nearly everything without a remote semblance of physical bulk. 80 / 150 / 110 is amazing standards for bulk: it actually has comparable, if not better bulk to mega salamence. metagross's real issues are really scarfed earthquake users, but they aren't exactly the hardest thing to take advantage of with the 985478932 shit in the tier that is immune to ground. even magnezone fears hammer arm/earthquake while he barely 2hkoes (iirc) with thunderbolt. not a lot can really safely switch into it (wash doesnt enjoy tpunch/zhb, bisharp can't handle hammer arm, slowbro dies to gk, revenge killers still have to take a bullet punch to the face, etc)

i mean, i know there will be the inevitable argument that metagross can't run everything at once, but honestly, i don't see what's the issue, the coverage options just means metagross is more threatening, especially when it really only needs mash and zhb.

or maybe i just suck and keep churning out gross-weak teams, but either way, i think this guy is pretty retarded as fuck.

tldr: power level is overpowering for ou, it sits as one of the faster mons in the tier, and it actually has some really godlike bulk.

im probably gonna get flamed for this but idk, i think there needs to be at least some sort of discussion on this guy; he looks set to become at least the next suspect imho after greninja so might as well. the current S ranks (without greg, obv) don't have this combination of power, speed and bulk that metagross does (latios/thundurus lacks bulk, landoge lacks speed and needs scarf). the only other thing that could be this ridiculous is probably msable but at least there's a hard counter in clefable...

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Mega Metagross will undoubtedly become even more dominating then it already is, but i'm not quite ready to call it broken yet. Greninja hasn't even been booted yet, so greninja less meta still quite fresh. Gross definitely has some stuff holding him back. For starters he is slower and less bulky pre-mega. Also, things he likes to switch into such as clefable and Lati@S can hit it quite hard wearing it down. Lastly, it is slower then ninja, so things such as raikou, thunderus, and scarf TTar can outspeed. Also games often come down to 50 50 speed ties with other base 110s.

Gross may be suspect worthy, but first let ninja be banned then give it a month to see how it plays out.

 

[LoDart210]

Mega Metagross will undoubtedly become even more dominating then it already is, but i'm not quite ready to call it broken yet. Greninja hasn't even been booted yet, so greninja less meta still quite fresh. Gross definitely has some stuff holding him back. For starters he is slower and less bulky pre-mega. Also, things he likes to switch into such as clefable and Lati@S can hit it quite hard wearing it down. Lastly, it is slower then ninja, so things such as raikou, thunderus, and scarf TTar can outspeed. Also games often come down to 50 50 speed ties with other base 110s.

Gross may be suspect worthy, but first let ninja be banned then give it a month to see how it plays out.

I agree. From what I've read from those who have reached the reqs on the suspect ladder, a greninja-less meta has allowed all play-styles to flourish once again and many mons are reappearing out of the woodwork to take part in OU again.

While Megagross is a very dominant force currently, if greninja is banned the meta will change and maybe he will be such a force in the meta game.


Then again it might become even more dominant XD

The point is, rushing to find more things to suspect right now is not a good idea

 

[Miridy]

Also, has anyone else tinkered with Toxic Spikes? Venusaur is less common now, and Tentacruel will lose a sizable niche with Greninja gone, so grounded Poison-types are less of an issue. They help to wear down some pretty annoying defensive Pokemon such as Mega Sableye (provided you can avoid having them bounced back) and Mew, which helps you break down some defensive cores more easily. Even if you can only afford to get up one layer, that passive damage is still like switching into neutral Stealth Rock damage every turn, so it can really add up. The trick is finding a viable user of the move, but you could probably get creative with something like Scolipede (the one I've been using, personally) or Dragalge.

Ironically speaking I think that Toxic Spikes has been nerfed with Greninja's potential ban, greni is faster, is a powerful and versatile threat, and very rarely has Toxic Spikes on its moveset, as such people won't go "oh, I need to bring in MegaSableye ASAP before he sets up toxic spikes on me" being also able to threaten defoggers like lati@s and Skarmory was another great deal for him, personally I see Life Orb Dragalge as a great Toxic Spikes user, with Life Orb you "lure" your opponent into thinking that you are completely offensive, while still having enough firepower to 2hko MegaSableye with Draco Meteor/Pulse without stealth rocks, though the speed does not help him at all.

 

[SketchUp]

Ironically speaking I think that Toxic Spikes has been nerfed with Greninja's potential ban, greni is faster, is a powerful and versatile threat, and very rarely has Toxic Spikes on its moveset, as such people won't go "oh, I need to bring in MegaSableye ASAP before he sets up toxic spikes on me" being also able to threaten defoggers like lati@s and Skarmory was another great deal for him, personally I see Life Orb Dragalge as a great Toxic Spikes user, with Life Orb you "lure" your opponent into thinking that you are completely offensive, while still having enough firepower to 2hko MegaSableye with Draco Meteor/Pulse without stealth rocks, though the speed does not help him at all.

I think Toxic Spikes will become more viable. Scolipede is a very solid toxic spikes setter and I think he will probably do well on some offensive teams. The decline of Mega Venusaur and Tentacruel [after ninja's ban] really helps toxic spikes users and common defoggers are under big pressure against offensive teams (where Scolipede is often found on) Bisharp is one of the most common pokemon and he threatens the Lati@s with Pursuit and Defiant. Mew and Mandibuzz have very low usage because the average stall team nowadays laughs at them. There are many pokemon immune to these toxic spikes but keep in my mind the average team still has 3 pokemon that become toxiced and being able to wear them down much easier can be a huge deal for offensive teams

 

[jpw234]

I really like the post-Ninja metagame at the moment. We have a nice situation where there's a dominant mega for stall (Sableye), balance (Altaria) and offense (Metagross), but each playstyle also has a bunch of other options as well. I don't really feel like there's anything that's too powerful at the moment. Sableye stall is strong but I think people are still figuring out how to beat it, Metagross is a huge threat but it's definitely handle-able, balance is on its way back which is obviously a good thing. I think this metagame is going to be very interesting for a couple of months, eventually Sableye or Metagross might get suspected but we should take the time to figure out exactly what ways there are to deal with them before taking that step.