Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[aesf]

Well I played 35 ladder games and a few tours with Groudon spam, so I have a lot of experience with these teams. Here are some things that I've noticed that defeat it:

1) Two shedinjas. Sturdy + Scrappy or two Sturdies; Groudon Spam has a 99.9% chance of losing to this team assuming you know what you're doing. Most of the time Groudon spams users might just forfeit at team preview.

2) One well-played shedinja. Groudon teams can't run stealth rock, and Shed switches into every single Groudon-P barring trick + flame orb or Mold breaker. Chansey can't beat it 1v1 (especially if you bring something like night shade), and all you need to do is predict the mold breaker groudon-P by baton passing out and into your protean or something. Oh yeah, and if it goes for the RK, so be it. Your opponent is losing pokemon at a faster rate than you are. Overall the least gimmicky answer to Groudon-P.

3) Mega Slowbro with Surf and something that makes it imposterproof. Groudon-P literally can't touch 2HKO this thing, and hell, you don't even need fur coat. Another very reliable answer to Groudon that wins 75% of the time.

4) Fur Coat. This one has been discussed and is currently one of the more effective options. However, I don't really think things like Cresselia should be using Fur Coat to beat this. Offensive Fur Coat fares far, far, far better than defensive fur coat.

5) Any physically bulky resist, such as Tangela/Tangrowth, Mega Heracross, Surskit, or Gourgeist-XL. Assuming the set doesn't get wrecked by imposters, you can't really lose with one of these on your side as long as you know how to look for tinted lens. For example, Groudon-P's Banded 1k Arrows doesn't even 3HKO Mega Heracross when fully invested.

6) PH Coil sweepers that aren't weak to Ground and have decent bulk (maybe coil + will-o + 1k Arrows + KS regular Groudon)

7) Assist Kyo-P teams

Also here are my thoughts on prankster taunt as a solution:

I see this mentioned so much, and the thing is, it's SO bad against these teams. They can literally switch in their bouncer (everyone assist team has one) and proceed to force you to switch out. Or if they're using their prankster one, it can simply phase you out. Or let's say you do manage to taunt it. Well guess what; as you parting shot out, trying to steal momentum, they know your whole set now, and can now switch in their magic bouncer on you. Unless you run something like scald PrimOgre (which is really one of, if not the only prankster taunt mon that beats it), Prankster Taunt becomes almost dead weight against this team. Even if you run PrimOgre, scald forces too many guessing games for it to actually be considered a solid check to Groudon Spam. Please, if you're running this for the sole purpose of beating groudon-spam...don't.

 

[Lcass4919]

in all reality. it can be safely accepted, that assist is nothing more then a "cheap strategy" much like infinite stalling. and is abusing the various flaws of the meta to its own advantage (priority attack that has 2 resistances, both of which suck badly and the shit that HAS priority, doesnt hit don hard enough to stop it.) and also requires no real skill to pull off. i decided to make a variation myself just to see how it would fair, and safe to say, it was the least amount of thinking i ever did. and i still won 7 games straight. not much, but remember that predictions play a huge part of pokemon, and i legit predicted 0 times vs all my opponents. ive talked to users of assist teams, and they all even admit, they dont consider it a "proper team" and i agree after using it myself. everyone who uses this team "magically" gets to the top on the ladder, not due to their skill level, but just because of how anti meta this attack is (seriously, people are considering some of the weirdest counters to it). im not a fan of preposing bans. but i think its time we throw it out there:

we should consider banning assist, because it is a unfair strategy that requires no skill or thought process to pull off, and receives amazing results due to simply how antimeta it is.

this isnt imposter we are talking about, or ates. this is on its own level. this isnt "a op strategy" or "super powerful" its just cheap. imposter cant stop it. ates dont hit it nearly as hard as they should. and fur coaters (barring megas with their stones) just get tricked. and shedinja has to risk a chatterfusion/mold breaker with rocky helmit/spiky sheild. theres RARELY any common stuff that can stop assist teams. and on top of that, the shit that do, get completely crapped on by the rest of the metagame 99% of the time. please tell me im not the only person who feels this way :\

 

[Werefofel]

in all reality. it can be safely accepted, that assist is nothing more then a "cheap strategy" much like infinite stalling. and is abusing the various flaws of the meta to its own advantage (priority attack that has 2 resistances, both of which suck badly and the shit that HAS priority, doesnt hit don hard enough to stop it.) and also requires no real skill to pull off. i decided to make a variation myself just to see how it would fair, and safe to say, it was the least amount of thinking i ever did. and i still won 7 games straight. not much, but remember that predictions play a huge part of pokemon, and i legit predicted 0 times vs all my opponents. ive talked to users of assist teams, and they all even admit, they dont consider it a "proper team" and i agree after using it myself. everyone who uses this team "magically" gets to the top on the ladder, not due to their skill level, but just because of how anti meta this attack is (seriously, people are considering some of the weirdest counters to it). im not a fan of preposing bans. but i think its time we throw it out there:

we should consider banning assist, because it is a unfair strategy that requires no skill or thought process to pull off, and receives amazing results due to simply how antimeta it is.

this isnt imposter we are talking about, or ates. this is on its own level. this isnt "a op strategy" or "super powerful" its just cheap. imposter cant stop it. ates dont hit it nearly as hard as they should. and fur coaters (barring megas with their stones) just get tricked. and shedinja has to risk a chatterfusion/mold breaker with rocky helmit/spiky sheild. theres RARELY any common stuff that can stop assist teams. and on top of that, the shit that do, get completely crapped on by the rest of the metagame 99% of the time. please tell me im not the only person who feels this way :\

I agree. I was able to get in the top 10 on the BH ladder multiple times clicking assist repeatedly. Like Lcass said, it's not that it's overpowered or anything, but it pigeonholes the meta into requiring a fur coat on a team that wants to be able to SURVIVE Groudon. Being able to kill it before it kills you is a whole different story. Some sort of restriction needs to be placed in order to allow the meta to be more diverse.

 

[DinaIsha]

We should consider banning BH because of how antimeta is it.

wat

 

[Lcass4919]

We should consider banning BH because of how antimeta is it.

wat

we should ban a meta...because...its antimeta....b...but...you cant be antimeta...if your the meta....halp im about to explode ;~;

 

[Rumors]

Question: is the problem Assist or is the problem multiple Groudon-P?

 

[Lcass4919]

Question: is the problem Assist or is the problem multiple Groudon-P?

its somewhat a mixture of both moreso former then latter. its not groudon, or assist per se. but its that groudon is 180 base attack poke, enough physical bulk to shrug the strongest priority, and hits every common poke in bh neutrally, and HARD might i add. two of which can do this with PRIORITY. but the main thing, is assist makes it imposter proof. run a tarrows set. and chansey steamrolls your team, its why people most of the time decide against it. (even sets like protean consider it less then others) for example, i made a team of 6 groudons (not just random groudons, they had perfect synergy and i thought extra hard about their moves) i had specially based imposter proof poison heal, pixie, water absorb, mold breaker, scarf protean(countered by water absorb of course) and soundproof. now, the team was winning some games. but it also lost a fair bit of them too. there was honestly a HUGE gap in the power of the two. my groudon team had to actually use thought process. meanwhile the assist spam...literally i just had to click assist, and occasionally use a different move.

now, if that isnt evidence enough, ive also tried different assist teams, and here's what i found:

boomburst: again, not as good as it was weak to revenge killing, however, it mowed down teams rather easily, since people couldn't stop it. and this was before the ev limit, where everything was bulky as fuck. so i expect it to only be stronger now.

judgement/technoblast: this was mine and kits theorymon, but ive tried technoblast, and again, not as good due to being ate weak(not as much as boomburst but still) technoblast(the worse out of the two) actually was very potent, and allthough i didnt get many games with it, each game i ended up winning with it.

to say "multiple groudon" is a problem, is also not true, considering THE ORIGINAL (flint) assist spam team had only 1 groudon(before oras)/primal groudon(after oras) and his version is a lot worse to face, because his groudon actually sets up and sweeps your team. and it also has the freedom of a extra moveslot for recovery AND antished.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Assist is not the problem. The problem is a combination of the absurd coverage Thousand Arrows has (mind that this is just ONE MOVE) and the sheer power of Groudon-Primal. I say that Assist itself is not the problem as the whole reason Flint invented Assist-Arrows was to mimic the classic gen-5 Prankster Nature Power, which was at the time effectively Earthquake with +1 priority. Needless to say, banning Nature Power was never even considered at the time. Another thing is the huge teambuilding constraint that comes with an Assist based team. I don't understand why this discussion is happening at all. You're basically calling for a ban of a gimmick because it has the ability to sweep your team. If it's antimeta, just change the meta. Run Fur Coat mons with mega stones. If anything, this issue just goes to show how insanely overpowered the new primal formes are, not that Assist is broken.

TL;DR Assist is not the issue, the issue is Primal Groudon / lack of a species clause

 

[Lcass4919]

Assist is not the problem. The problem is a combination of the absurd coverage Thousand Arrows has (mind that this is just ONE MOVE) and the sheer power of Groudon-Primal. I say that Assist itself is not the problem as the whole reason Flint invented Assist-Arrows was to mimic the classic gen-5 Prankster Nature Power, which was at the time effectively Earthquake with +1 priority. Needless to say, banning Nature Power was never even considered at the time. Another thing is the huge teambuilding constraint that comes with an Assist based team. I don't understand why this discussion is happening at all. You're basically calling for a ban of a gimmick because it has the ability to sweep your team. If it's antimeta, just change the meta. Run Fur Coat mons with mega stones. If anything, this issue just goes to show how insanely overpowered the new primal formes are, not that Assist is broken.

TL;DR Assist is not the issue, the issue is Primal Groudon / lack of a species clause

lol. it doesnt sweep my teams. thats not why i said that. second, flints reasoning for creating the team doesn't prove anything other then his reasoning, and it wasnt considered...hm...maybe due to the increased bulk last gen? possibly due to the more stally nature of the meta, groudon wasnt that big of a problem. plus it was more prepared for back then due to the major power increase this gen, and you could actually run flying types to stop it.

have you talked to him about his results? OR his opinion on the team? the fact he is currently regretting the decision of creating it. everyone who uses the team has told me something along the lines of "this shouldnt be a thing" or "it doesnt feel right using this team" this isnt a "gimmick team that sweeps your team and you need to prepare for" by your logic i say we unban huge and pure power. because "although it mows teams, you should just just furcoaters with mega stones, and it proves how insanely powerful anything with a somewhat decent attack stat is" i wouldn't even call assist spam a gimmick at this point tbh, because a gimmick requires using something out of the norm that would catch someone off guard. well. were all on guard. and its still getting people rather easily. "we should all run fur coaters" is not a valid counter argument to ANYTHING. and can easily be pasted onto ANYTHING not named parental bond. wonder guard? run mold breaker! shadow tag? run shed shell! permatrapping? run volturn or shed shell!

why do people say "run fur coat and it wont stop you" as if that's a valid argument. if something FORCES you to pick a ability SOLELY to counter it (seriously, what does fur coat do other then block physical protean, which is barely even RAN nowadays,) offensive teams don't need MORE defensive backbone.

stop acting like primal groudon and kyogre are both gods of bh and smite everyone half to death. even in my teams where OPPOSING GROUDONS ARE MY WORST WEAKNESS. (remember my sand team, look at it carefully, and notice something about it) i still managed to break groudon like it was a joke. same with ogre. they have really good stats like id consider it godlike stats. but why werent we screaming ban with mega mewtwos? they have 140/130 base speed. compared to groudon/ogres complete crud 90. and yet, mega groudon/ogre, who have good offenses (even though one USUALLY GOES UNUSED REGARDLESS) and great defense/spc def (which the other one is superiorly inferior, and falls down to every-common-pokemon in the teir that runs offenses on that side.(besides, ogre aint even used much anymore since quaza scared it off)

tldr: lets unban wonder guard since we can all run mold breaker to stop it easily!!! oh, and kyogre and groudon arent as good as people say. offensive pressure due to their abysmal speed (this isnt 5th gen kit) usually weighs them in. they are kinda like the "Rampardos" of FU teir, except a biiiiit better in comparison to the tier.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Regardless of how I feel on the issue, I think we need to avoid any more complex bans.

I remember Kumi saying something the other day like "I used to be able to explain BH in one sentence."

It now takes so long to explain the current metagame to new players, because not only are Wonder Guard, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and Parental Bond banned, we also have OHKO Clause and Evasion Clause like standards, but there isn't a Species Clause or a Sleep Clause; we do, however, require a maximum of two of the same ability per team, except only one total for Refrigerate, Pixilate, and Aerilate combined. There's no Endless Battle Clause but you'll be disciplined if you use an endless battle strategy.

Can you imagine having to add "Assist cannot be used to call Thousand Arrows" or something like that to that list? I know a complex ban might be the best solution for the health of the metagame, but it makes our situation significantly more complicated as we try to expand as a community.

 

[Kit Kasai]

lol. it doesnt sweep my teams. thats not why i said that. second, flints reasoning for creating the team doesn't prove anything other then his reasoning, and it wasnt considered...hm...maybe due to the increased bulk last gen? possibly due to the more stally nature of the meta, groudon wasnt that big of a problem. plus it was more prepared for back then due to the major power increase this gen, and you could actually run flying types to stop it.

have you talked to him about his results? OR his opinion on the team? the fact he is currently regretting the decision of creating it. everyone who uses the team has told me something along the lines of "this shouldnt be a thing" or "it doesnt feel right using this team" this isnt a "gimmick team that sweeps your team and you need to prepare for" by your logic i say we unban huge and pure power. because "although it mows teams, you should just just furcoaters with mega stones, and it proves how insanely powerful anything with a somewhat decent attack stat is" i wouldn't even call assist spam a gimmick at this point tbh, because a gimmick requires using something out of the norm that would catch someone off guard. well. were all on guard. and its still getting people rather easily. "we should all run fur coaters" is not a valid counter argument to ANYTHING. and can easily be pasted onto ANYTHING not named parental bond. wonder guard? run mold breaker! shadow tag? run shed shell! permatrapping? run volturn or shed shell!

why do people say "run fur coat and it wont stop you" as if that's a valid argument. if something FORCES you to pick a ability SOLELY to counter it (seriously, what does fur coat do other then block physical protean, which is barely even RAN nowadays,) offensive teams don't need MORE defensive backbone.

stop acting like primal groudon and kyogre are both gods of bh and smite everyone half to death. even in my teams where OPPOSING GROUDONS ARE MY WORST WEAKNESS. (remember my sand team, look at it carefully, and notice something about it) i still managed to break groudon like it was a joke. same with ogre. they have really good stats like id consider it godlike stats. but why werent we screaming ban with mega mewtwos? they have 140/130 base speed. compared to groudon/ogres complete crud 90. and yet, mega groudon/ogre, who have good offenses (even though one USUALLY GOES UNUSED REGARDLESS) and great defense/spc def (which the other one is superiorly inferior, and falls down to every-common-pokemon in the teir that runs offenses on that side.(besides, ogre aint even used much anymore since quaza scared it off)

tldr: lets unban wonder guard since we can all run mold breaker to stop it easily!!! oh, and kyogre and groudon arent as good as people say. offensive pressure due to their abysmal speed (this isnt 5th gen kit) usually weighs them in. they are kinda like the "Rampardos" of FU teir, except a biiiiit better in comparison to the tier.

By your logic, as you like to say, we should ban imposter and shedinja too, because it "forces you to pick something solely to counter it"

Stop twisting my words please.

 

[Neverman]

About this Assist + Groudon-Primal + Thousand Arrows discussion:

First i think the BH community should have a consensus about how anti-meta and/or broken it is, if this really deserves a ban or if this is something like -ate, imposter, setup mons and sturdinja that everybody has to be prepared against.

After that if we come to the consensus of ban then my opinion is that a complex ban WOULD NOT work in this case because other mons and moves can be used with Assist (like spamming Dragon Ascent Mega-Rayquaza or something, not as good as the current spam due to lack of physical def to survive priority and stuff, but still really dangerous). If we go for a ban i would vote to ban Assist or to implement a Species Clause.

 

[Lcass4919]

By your logic, as you like to say, we should ban imposter and shedinja too, because it "forces you to pick something solely to counter it"

Stop twisting my words please.

dude. have we not gone over this 1000 times before? shedinja and chansey are the "oddballs" in the teir, both WOULD be banned except each has something about it that keeps it in the teir.

imposter is practically a "oddball" because you control it. and you dont require 1 thing in the goddamn teir to stop YOUR pokemon. if you can control its power, its obviously not "broken". on top of that it waters down the meta to stop setup spam and having 4 perfect moves. its why people constantly call for imposter ban, but noone agrees.

shedinja is literally the pokemon that the meta had to shift the MOST after yes that is true. however shedinja doesnt NEED mold breaker to break it, because literally one simple move can not just stop it. it DESTROYS IT.

both of these would be broken given we only had 1 specific method of stopping it. but they dont. they have multiple. meanwhile assist has 1. never call shedinja a counter as even assistspam can get past it with chatter/spiky sheild.

if you dont want me to "twist your words", dont bring up that same-crappy-argument that's constantly knocked down in EVERY metagame. seriously why do you think genesect was banned dispite having a hardcounter. because it only had ONE.

 

[motherlove]

I think the issue is neither assist or thousand arrows, I just think the issue is groudon-P being overpowered.
God like attack, amazing defense to avoid rk and in my opinion the 3 best stab moves in the game.
I mean v-create is the most powerfull move in the game and can be sun boosted. Thousand arrows has the best neutral coverage in BH with only bug / grass resisting it. And sacred fire has a 50% burn chance.

Just talking about tinted lens groudon-P as an example. This pokemon can break the toughtest groudon counter like a max def fur coat mega slowbro. Or ff gourgeist. The only one not destroyed by stabs is fur coat palkia wich is completely useless outside of countering this specific groudon (doesn't even counter assist teams unlike bro) and even with that, groudon has the possibility to run a coverage move to deal with it. If sun and rocks are up it's still a 2hko and any crit would ruin it. Palkia also loses to many other groudon sets like adaptability.
Not that tinted lens is the only good one. I've run a lot of different groudon sets, even kinda gimmicky like pixilate, prankstercat, storm drain + quiver dance or fur coat. All of them were good.

Talking about groudon-P in bh feels a bit like talking about keldeo in AAA. Where it can pass every counter by shifting his set a tiny little bit and still remain as good. He also can go offensive or defensive. Groudon can even have a support role.

As much as i love using groudon in bh. I still think it's unhealthy for the meta. And a groudon-P ban would be a good idea.

 

[Lcass4919]

I think the issue is neither assist or thousand arrows, I just think the issue is groudon-P being overpowered.
God like attack, amazing defense to avoid rk and in my opinion the 3 best stab moves in the game.
I mean v-create is the most powerfull move in the game and can be sun boosted. Thousand arrows has the best neutral coverage in BH with only bug / grass resisting it. And sacred fire has a 50% burn chance.

Just talking about tinted lens groudon-P as an example. This pokemon can break the toughtest groudon counter like a max def fur coat mega slowbro. Or ff gourgeist. The only one not destroyed by stabs is fur coat palkia wich is completely useless outside of countering this specific groudon (doesn't even counter assist teams unlike bro) and even with that, groudon has the possibility to run a coverage move to deal with it. If sun and rocks are up it's still a 2hko and any crit would ruin it. Palkia also loses to many other groudon sets like adaptability.
Not that tinted lens is the only good one. I've run a lot of different groudon sets, even kinda gimmicky like pixilate, prankstercat, storm drain + quiver dance or fur coat. All of them were good.

Talking about groudon-P in bh feels a bit like talking about keldeo in AAA. Where it can pass every counter by shifting his set a tiny little bit and still remain as good. He also can go offensive or defensive. Groudon can even have a support role.

As much as i love using groudon in bh. I still think it's unhealthy for the meta. And a groudon-P ban would be a good idea.

banning pokemon is out of the question. also mm2x and y are both stronger and faster then groudon, which speed is a huge factor in bh, and since don doesnt have much, it leaves it super open to all forms of special attackers in the tier (which is currently 70% of the metagame lol. groudon is powerful, but its no different then rampardos in the lower teirs. except slightly better typing and bulk, at the cost of less "attack difference" in the meta. its powerful, but easily revenge killed.

 

[Loyd]

Wether Assist is a gimmick or w/e isn't the issue. Assist is currently an incredible strategy. It's a simple plan with easy execution. Groudon - Primal can do other things besides be an excellent Assist mon so I see no need to ban it for this particular usage alone. I don't like to bring up things like centralization and other terms that are just so annoying to hear but, at the moment Assist is over centralizing. Fur Coat and Sturdy Shedinja are also not a counter to this because Mold Breakers go through it. A species clause will mean we face one setup Primal - Groudon which will still be a threat with the right team support. I say, ban Assist.

Never mind the other tiers/metas and what they do, that's them and this is us. Also please forget about Gen 5. This and that are completely different situations.

 

[Werefofel]

I think the issue is neither assist or thousand arrows, I just think the issue is groudon-P being overpowered.
God like attack, amazing defense to avoid rk and in my opinion the 3 best stab moves in the game.
I mean v-create is the most powerfull move in the game and can be sun boosted. Thousand arrows has the best neutral coverage in BH with only bug / grass resisting it. And sacred fire has a 50% burn chance.

Just talking about tinted lens groudon-P as an example. This pokemon can break the toughtest groudon counter like a max def fur coat mega slowbro. Or ff gourgeist. The only one not destroyed by stabs is fur coat palkia wich is completely useless outside of countering this specific groudon (doesn't even counter assist teams unlike bro) and even with that, groudon has the possibility to run a coverage move to deal with it. If sun and rocks are up it's still a 2hko and any crit would ruin it. Palkia also loses to many other groudon sets like adaptability.
Not that tinted lens is the only good one. I've run a lot of different groudon sets, even kinda gimmicky like pixilate, prankstercat, storm drain + quiver dance or fur coat. All of them were good.

Talking about groudon-P in bh feels a bit like talking about keldeo in AAA. Where it can pass every counter by shifting his set a tiny little bit and still remain as good. He also can go offensive or defensive. Groudon can even have a support role.

As much as i love using groudon in bh. I still think it's unhealthy for the meta. And a groudon-P ban would be a good idea.

I would agree with this, except for its combination with prankster. P-Groudon stays relatively balanced as long as it sits at 90 speed. However, when you give it a priority, 90P, STAB move that doesn't have a single reliable wall, it becomes a more complex issue. For example, a regular PH P-Groudon with Thousand Arrows can be quite a problem, but a M-Ray with BB can OHKO it without much of a problem. If it can't, this groudon put higher EVs into SpD which is going to stop it from OHKOing Ray. There are multiple reliable counters to a more average P-Groudon, but the priority becomes the most important issue. When choice banded, Ray can't take a hit, along with all the other Special/Physical sweepers that want to be able to OHKO it. This limits a players options severely, making Shedinja and Fur Coat the only reliable counters. Shedinja isn't always effective, because if someone takes a single P-Groudon on their team and gives it, say, infestation, Shed is dead, leaving something with Fur Coat as the only effective wall.

By your logic, as you like to say, we should ban imposter and shedinja too, because it "forces you to pick something solely to counter it"

Stop twisting my words please.

While I somewhat agree with this, Shed and Chansey both have a myriad of counters. As well, Shed only requires a move to be able to stop it, not one of 6 abilities that one can have on a team. As well, it's become common practice for BH players to create walls within their own team to counter their own sweepers in the case of an imposter, and it's easy to do this by controlling its moveset. Thousand Arrows, on the other hand, is damn near impossible to reliably wall without a Fur Coat.

TLDR: The problem isn't whether it's overpowered or not, it's how hard it is to stop without demanding one of 6 valuable Pokemon slots.

 

[I like donkeys]

Hey guys, i havent read much of this thread so i apologise if i repeat pokemon movesets that have already been covered, but i have some movesets id like to share with you all.

Super Ducky

Porygon-Z @ Silk Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest
-Tail Glow
-Nature Power
-Dark Pulse / Night Daze
-Spore / Dark Void

EDIT: Arceus Normal could probably do porygons job a whole lot better becuz superior speed and bulk. To be fair tho Porygon does

This set is so much fun to use. Since nature power isnt technically an attacking move it gets boosted by prankster, its basically a priority tri attack. Sure other attackers have more powerful priority attacks such as -ate abusers, but what sets porygon apart is priority sleep and setup. Because of this, Porygon can plough through teams with ease, as long as you have removed things such as Shedinja and heart swappers who resist/immume to Tri attack. Another cool thing is that its not entirely chansey bait either. At x4 porygon OHKOs Chansey, if you win the speed tie of course.
I apologise for not posting my other sets but my phone is being really retarded so ill wait till i can use my computer.


Sorry i was planning to post more but im on my phone

 

[Lcass4919]

Hey guys, i havent read much of this thread so i apologise if i repeat pokemon movesets that have already been covered, but i have some movesets id like to share with you all.

Super Ducky

Porygon-Z @ Silk Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest
-Tail Glow
-Nature Power
-Dark Pulse / Night Daze
-Spore / Dark Void

EDIT: Arceus Normal could probably do porygons job a whole lot better becuz superior speed and bulk. To be fair tho Porygon does

This set is so much fun to use. Since nature power isnt technically an attacking move it gets boosted by prankster, its basically a priority tri attack. Sure other attackers have more powerful priority attacks such as -ate abusers, but what sets porygon apart is priority sleep and setup. Because of this, Porygon can plough through teams with ease, as long as you have removed things such as Shedinja and heart swappers who resist/immume to Tri attack. Another cool thing is that its not entirely chansey bait either. At x4 porygon OHKOs Chansey, if you win the speed tie of course.
I apologise for not posting my other sets but my phone is being really retarded so ill wait till i can use my computer.


Sorry i was planning to post more but im on my phone

honestly, ive tried this set with arceus...except a more utility role, and i felt that boombursts power was just so much more needed then priority. however, with boosting i can see the argument on both sides.

also your entire last line about chansey should be deleted, since although not chansey bait, its pretty much setting your team up for disaster if you lose that crucial speed tie.

 

[xJownage]

honestly, ive tried this set with arceus...except a more utility role, and i felt that boombursts power was just so much more needed then priority. however, with boosting i can see the argument on both sides.

also your entire last line about chansey should be deleted, since although not chansey bait, its pretty much setting your team up for disaster if you lose that crucial speed tie.

If you just pack sheddy and a prankster hazard remover (which is on a lot of balanced/BO teams atm), then problem solved. I wish there was a better normal type for that set though.

 

[Lcass4919]

If you just pack sheddy and a prankster hazard remover (which is on a lot of balanced/BO teams atm), then problem solved. I wish there was a better normal type for that set though.

If you just pack sheddy and a prankster hazard remover (which is on a lot of balanced/BO teams atm), then problem solved.

sheddy

NO. JUST NO. DON'T DARE SAY THAT AGAIN.

pardon the overdramatication. but shedinja is not a counter. don't call it one, and don't treat it as one. simple as that. the best ways to eliminate shedinja aren't even hazards. hazards are the least used method. moldy pursuit, infest, wisp, and whatnot are all more common. and if you lose shed. your teams synergy drops to 0. and your opponent WILL take advantage of that through the battle when they see it. when you switch into shedinja, suddenly your facing mold breaker pursuit gengar on the double switch. your team relies on shedinja which although can win you a few games, will not utilize shedinja to its fullest potential and you will get your ass handed to you by higher ladder.

 

[I like donkeys]

NO. JUST NO. DON'T DARE SAY THAT AGAIN.

pardon the overdramatication. but shedinja is not a counter. don't call it one, and don't treat it as one. simple as that. the best ways to eliminate shedinja aren't even hazards. hazards are the least used method. moldy pursuit, infest, wisp, and whatnot are all more common. and if you lose shed. your teams synergy drops to 0. and your opponent WILL take advantage of that through the battle when they see it. when you switch into shedinja, suddenly your facing mold breaker pursuit gengar on the double switch. your team relies on shedinja which although can win you a few games, will not utilize shedinja to its fullest potential and you will get your ass handed to you by higher ladder.

You do realize that the definition of a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into anyone of another Pokemon's moves with impunity and do something back? And if sheddy carries safety goggles or has magic coat or something then, yes, it is totally a counter. Sheddy can literally switch in anytime he wants and is completely safe. Just because most teams have dedicated counters to sheddy does not make it any less of a counter to Porygon-Z. That's like saying Gengar is not a counter to SD Diggersby because it can be taken out by other members of your team. Like what.

Also another thing i'd like to add about my Porygon-Z/Arceus-Normal set is that it is not beaten by prankster heart swap users such as aegislash, because it can outspeed with its own prankster and put to sleep and then go for the KO, or if you're cocky grab an extra boost.

honestly, ive tried this set with arceus...except a more utility role, and i felt that boombursts power was just so much more needed then priority. however, with boosting i can see the argument on both sides.

I actually haven't tested the set with Arceus, it just came to me while writing Porygon's moveset and seemed like a good idea. What Porygon-Z has over Arceus tho is that it is a little more powerful so tri attack will kill more things, which kinda justifies the lack of boomburst on the set. And, sadly, for a boosting set at least neither Pokemon can fit boomburst on their movesets. Simply because 4MMS. Porygon NEEDS a set up move, a sleep move to set up (and kill) more reliably, a powerful priority STAB attack to hit faster opponents, and a coverage move to hit things that said powerful STAB attack wont hit. It can't really afford to give up any one one of those moves for a powerful wallbreaking move.

EDIT: Replace dark pulse with shadow ball so you dont get shrekt by diancie and shit like that.

 

[xJownage]

NO. JUST NO. DON'T DARE SAY THAT AGAIN.

pardon the overdramatication. but shedinja is not a counter. don't call it one, and don't treat it as one. simple as that. the best ways to eliminate shedinja aren't even hazards. hazards are the least used method. moldy pursuit, infest, wisp, and whatnot are all more common. and if you lose shed. your teams synergy drops to 0. and your opponent WILL take advantage of that through the battle when they see it. when you switch into shedinja, suddenly your facing mold breaker pursuit gengar on the double switch. your team relies on shedinja which although can win you a few games, will not utilize shedinja to its fullest potential and you will get your ass handed to you by higher ladder.

pardon the overdramatication. but shedinja is not a counter. don't call it one, and don't treat it as one. simple as that.

but shedinja is not a counter.

The latis are pursuit weak, but obviously don't check megazard Y. Obviously. Seriously, you made yourself sound really smart right there.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Can we please stop comparing stuff to OU to prove points? We just had two consecutive posts that did just that.

Anyway, yeah, by the technical definition Shedinja is a counter to that Porygon-Z set. But I think that the point Lcass was trying to make is that for a lot of sets that Shedinja may appear to counter, it actually can't switch in because of random things like Infestation, Leech Seed, etc., and as a result of this vulnerability it's not always a reliable switch-in.

 

[Kit Kasai]

The point is never to rely on shedinja to counter anything. This is a sign of very poor teambuilding, because if shed is your only counter to something, any good player with that something will have obviously prepared for shed and can probably sweep you with it.

Please. This is one of the most basic things in BH. It's been agreed upon by top level players ever since gen 5.