Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

Status
Not open for further replies.
Halcyon.

Talonflame is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good rock type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Mega Slowbro is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good electric type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Point I'm making is that these types of comparisons are really subjective and don't make good arguments. Clefable has plenty of options that work in specific situations, but that alone doesn't make it better or worse than something like Landorus-T. The main concern is how effective each of these sets are on their own, and that's where I think Clefable is a bit underwhelming.
 
I'd like to talk about Clefable being in S...

First off, it fits the S rank description very well. it performs a variety of different roles very effectively with a low risk and high reward factor. There is very little reason not to use a clefable as it checks a ton of pokemon like keldeo, mega sableye, conkeldurr, dragonite, mega gyarados, latias/latios, mega gallade and tyranitar off the top of my head... and with unaware it serves as a great stop to a lot of things that can beat it with a set up move (which includes a lot of the pokemon I mentioned). Magic guard is also a flawless ability, being able to constantly switch in on rocks without having to take damage is amazing on any balance or stall team. it also helps it avoid toxic and leech seed, which is a common stop to the CM set, a set which can run through weakened teams. Because of magic guard it can also use ferrothorn as set up fodder, which is a huge merit for set up pokemon in general. Clefable is the glue to majorty of teams because of how many roles it can perform and how effective these roles are. Having access to thunder wave, heal bell and stealth rock makes it a flawless support pivot that finds many opportunities to set up stealth rock and provide heal bell support because of its great defenses and typing. It can be a great wish passer for stall teams too, with unaware to prevent it from being set up bait it can effectively pass wishes and/or wish stall the opponent. The CM set is another great one, being able to clean through teams that make the wrong move or have lost their checks to it (a great example of this is the OLT matches between Tele and Bloo).

In general, clefable is great at both supporting and attacking like other S rank pokemon (lopunny for example, both supports the team and can dish out respectable damage). However, clefable's success does usually depend on the set you run. The unaware set is rather passive, and easily worn down because of hazards and status as well as sandstorm which many people tend to shrug off, but it is important in the long run... Whereas CM Clefable also tends to give your opponent a lot of momentum because it wont be able to do anything super productive for your ream and as such it will end up giving the opponent free switch ins to gain momentum most of the time.

With all that being said I'm still leaning towards clefable being S rank. The fact that it loses a ton of momentum to mega metagross and heatran and various other mons is unfortunate, but I don't think this warrants it not being in S. It tends to gain momentun more than it loses it anyway and it still performs every one of its many roles amazingly well and can be a pivot and a sweeper at the same time, while still having the merit of supporting your team with a different set. It is truly the face of balance teams and is a solid glue that can be fit on most teams with low risk and a very high reward.

Honestly, the way I see it, Clefable is in the same boat as Sableye and is able to perform very similar roles so I don't see what stops it from being in S.
 
Halcyon.

Talonflame is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good rock type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Mega Slowbro is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good electric type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Point I'm making is that these types of comparisons are really subjective and don't make good arguments. Clefable has plenty of options that work in specific situations, but that alone doesn't make it better or worse than something like Landorus-T. The main concern is how effective each of these sets are on their own, and that's where I think Clefable is a bit underwhelming.

Difference between broflame and clefable is clefable isn't hindered or shut down as easily. T-flame is screwed by rocks and slowbro can't take repeated hits.. after the first calm mind magnezone t-bolts and the newest check serperior easily catch up to it. Slowbro doesn't turn defensive pokemon in the tier unviable either like clefable does.. slowbro is different from other defensive mons like venasaur for it's own reasons and it depends on the team on who to run. Clefable just flat out outclasses pokemon that do exactly the same thing or a variety of pokemon that preform one of clefable's many roles. Bro does not outclass anybody, and talonflame while overcentralizing IMHO still has massive flaws they lower it's capabilities (rocks, lack of power, etc).

Basicly.. if clefable left OU for example, players would see much more variety in team building using other defensive fairies, walls, etc instead of just this single blob on every team. Not saying it's ban worthy just trying to show exactly how well it works in OU.
 
Halcyon.

Talonflame is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good rock type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Mega Slowbro is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good electric type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Point I'm making is that these types of comparisons are really subjective and don't make good arguments.

Except that in this you ignore major flaws of both Talonflame and Mega Slowbro that Clefable just doesn't have. The comparison of Mega Sableye to Clefable is much more solid than either comparison you made.

Both are slow bulky Pokemon with good typing.
Both have potential to sweep with CM sets
Both have potential to support the team defensively as well as with utility

Now add on the fact that Clefable has a myriad of sets that it can run to beat literally any "counter" or support the team in multiple different ways, as well as its natural ability to outlast its best switch-ins (both meta and Heatran have no recover outside of trans Lefties).

Please give me a good reason why this Pokemon doesn't fit S rank. It's prepared for? Yeah so is Landorus-T and Metagross. That certainly doesn't stop them. It's weak to Steel? Sableye is weak to Fairy, so what? It can't run all its sets at once? What mon can (Greninja certainly couldn't!)? It seems people don't want it in S based on some weird unspoken principle that all S rank mons have to be mainly offensive in nature and have to be able to sweep through everything. That's just not true, but even if it were, Clefable DOES have the ability to sweep in addition to all its defensive utility! How is that not the definition of S?
 
Agreeing on Starmie nomination to A- because of its offensive set. Now that greninja is gone (Thank God) this set can finally fine a reason to be used. Having a fantastic speed tier, a pretty movepool with plenty of coverage and analytic starmie can hit everything that could switch pretty hard. The reflect type starmie is somewhat cool but being setup bait for stuff like sub cm keldeo is certainly not good right now but can still be effective to avoid getting pursuit trapped by bisharp.

About clefable... not too sure right now, Im in the fence regarding this. I will have to stay away from this one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM
Except that in this you ignore major flaws of both Talonflame and Mega Slowbro that Clefable just doesn't have. The comparison of Mega Sableye to Clefable is much more solid than either comparison you made.

Both are slow bulky Pokemon with good typing.
Both have potential to sweep with CM sets
Both have potential to support the team defensively as well as with utility

Now add on the fact that Clefable has a myriad of sets that it can run to beat literally any "counter" or support the team in multiple different ways, as well as its natural ability to outlast its best switch-ins (both meta and Heatran have no recover outside of trans Lefties).

Please give me a good reason why this Pokemon doesn't fit S rank. It's prepared for? Yeah so is Landorus-T and Metagross. That certainly doesn't stop them. It's weak to Steel? Sableye is weak to Fairy, so what? It can't run all its sets at once? What mon can (Greninja certainly couldn't!)? It seems people don't want it in S based on some weird unspoken principle that all S rank mons have to be mainly offensive in nature and have to be able to sweep through everything. That's just not true, but even if it were, Clefable DOES have the ability to sweep in addition to all its defensive utility! How is that not the definition of S?

Once again, your comparison to Mega Sableye is really subjective. I mentioned Talonflame because it has a really good typing, two popular sweeping sets with BU and SD, and has great potential to support a team defensively with its great utility. It doesn't have a ridiculous Gen 1 movepool with thousands of options, but neither does Sableye.

Clefable's ability to beat most of its counters is a great thing, obviously. And you don't need to keep stating it, because we all know it can run all kinds of stuff from Psyshock to Focus Blast. However, you fail to acknowledge that running moves for these counters is an opportunity cost in itself, and thus Clefable doesn't distinguish itself from other pokemon with very few (if any) 100% counters such as Altaria, Gardevoir and Scizor.

As for reasons, read some of the posts I've already made in this thread:
 
Mega Sableye is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good fairy type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Now watch this:

Clefable is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good steel type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

The argument that Metagross or Heatran or whatever steel type give Clefable so much trouble that it shouldn't be S can easily be applied to Mega Sableye with Fairy types. Hiw can anyone continue to say Sableye is S (which it obviously is) and then say Clefable isn't due to it having counters? The tier is incredibly prepared for both Sableye and Clefable and yet they both manage to do work. I really can't fathom why Clef wouldn't be S rank.

And just because Clef can't run all its sets at once doesn't mean it shouldn't rise. Lando-T can't be Scarf and Defensive at the same time, but that doesn't mean both sets don't contribute to its placement.

I do agree with you, Halycon, and I think that Clefable has a reasonable spot in S, but I don't think that the Sableye comparison is entirely fair. Fairy types are much less common than steel types (particularly the Heatran/Metagross that give Clefable hell). Clefable is, of course, a very common poke that threatens Sableye, but it is easier to switch into, especially for a stall team, than something like Metagross, or even Heatran who can threaten a burn/hazards. Sylveon is the other prevalent fairy type, and its specs set is admittedly difficult to handle, but it is dealt with by the same common mons, plus even more due to its lack of coverage in comparison to Clef. I understand what you are getting at, and I share your same views, but I don't think that such a comparison does much to support its place in S-rank.
 
It's really god damn hard to even 2hko Clefable with super effective coverage moves.

252 Atk Mew Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mew Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



Anything with STAB steel doesn't exactly want to switch in for fear of fire coverage. Poison Jab is just a pretty much terrible move to use and there aren't many pokemon that make good use of Gunk Shot or Iron Tail or Meteor Mash. It's really difficult to convincingly take down unless you have a Venusaur or Metagross or something like that. Yes we all know that Heatran easily counters it, but flash cannon isn't on every set. SpDef Heatrans with nothing except a piss weak lava plume and a roar is an opportunity for the occasional clef to use, say, twave or rocks or pass a wish to something. You never know.

I definitely support Clefable to S
 
I think Clefable should be moving to S. It can serve many purposes really well. First of all it is pretty much the best Unaware user, and unlike Quagsire its not always used on stall. Unaware Clef is able to beat other Magic Guard Clef that run around and also Belly Drum Azu which is more and more common. The fact that Unaware Clef isn't even used as much compared to Magic Guard Clef is amazing.

Basically Clef can be a late game win condition with CM, a cleric, wish passer, defensive pivot, a status absorber and something hella hard to kill. With greninja one of its best checks banned, Clefable to S
 
I'd like to nominate Gliscor to move up to A-. Gliscor has received a lot of attention lately because it matches up really well against some of the metagame's top threats. The SpD set has once again risen in popularity, as it can counter Mega Sableye when running Swords Dance as well as deal with potent threats like Landorus-I (which is also gaining popularity), LO Gengar, and offensive Heatran. Furthermore, it is one of the best Landorus-T switch-ins in the tier as it isn't really worn down much by U-turn due to Poison Heal, handles Mega Beedrill decently, pretty much counters Clefable, checks Bisharp, is a perfect answer to Mega Diancie if Stealth Rock is off the field, deals with non-Ice Punch Mega Lopunny pretty well, and in general is really disruptive to all types of teams as it is difficult to kill, has lots of longevity, and can cripple foes with Knock Off/boosted Earthquakes. The physically defensive set also boasts a solid niche as a very good answer to Pokemon like Mega Metagross, non-Ice Punch Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Landorus-T, Mega Beedrill, Excadrill, Breloom, and Garchomp while retaining the ability to deal with Mega Sableye and disrupt defensive foes effectively. Gliscor is just a solid Pokemon in the current metagame and I think A- Rank makes a lot more sense for it than B+. A would even be fair.

I have some more noms/responses to post in detail that I'll do when I'm more awake. For now I'll just leave them here:

Mega Lopunny -> A+
Mega Slowbro -> A+
Mega Gardevoir -> A
Clefable -> A+
Latias -> A
Mega Heracross -> B+/B
Tyranitar -> A
Crawdaunt -> B-/C+
Mega Latias -> A-/B+
 
Mega Sableye is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good fairy type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Now watch this:

Clefable is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good steel type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

The argument that Metagross or Heatran or whatever steel type give Clefable so much trouble that it shouldn't be S can easily be applied to Mega Sableye with Fairy types. Hiw can anyone continue to say Sableye is S (which it obviously is) and then say Clefable isn't due to it having counters? The tier is incredibly prepared for both Sableye and Clefable and yet they both manage to do work. I really can't fathom why Clef wouldn't be S rank.

And just because Clef can't run all its sets at once doesn't mean it shouldn't rise. Lando-T can't be Scarf and Defensive at the same time, but that doesn't mean both sets don't contribute to its placement.

I don't really agree with this comparison, and the main reason is that Magic Guard is an amazing ability, but Magic Bounce is it on steroids (that is, a stupidly good ability). Magic Guard is a perk - it neuters passive damage as form of offense. But Magic Guard is simultaneously a perk and a weapon - it neuters passive damage (for the most part) and threatens to turn it against you. In addition to the fact that the entire hazard game is warped and that it cannot be taunted, it basically threatens to take anything except direct attacks/set up moves and turn it against you. In other words, while Clefable consistently provides utility even if counters exist by walling stuff/pivoting, Sableye consistently provides utility by just existing. The risk/reward of using aggressive status moves gets warped.

And this is in addition to the fact that Sableye can still wall a lot of mons like Clefable, sweep like Clefable, and provide utility with a variety of sets like Clefable. It puts in work when it's on the field and when it's not.

Honestly, they're both stupid good mons, and Clefable might very well be on the cusp of S rank due to being such an easy mon to put on a team and consistent win condition (like Lando), but the comparison to Sableye makes no sense to me. Clefable puts in work a lot of the times, Sableye threatens to nullify and turn against you options that every team benefits from.

The reason why Clefable having counters matters is because the counters can prevent it from doing its job (unless it's setting up rocks/wishpassing - which doesn't really have the same threat level as Sableye, and lets be honest, pivoting is nice, but it's not enacting what it was planned to do - threaten sweep), whereas Sableye cannot reliably be prevented from doing its main job - hazard control/absorb status, while still threatening to do everything else it's awesome at.

Edit at below: I responded to KztxL7 below on why overall I think Magic Bounce is a buff to magic guard, but I deleted it so the thread wouldn't get derailed. But outside of abusing lo recoil and certain SR weak mons, I think 50% of OU could benefit from having Magic Bounce over their own ability (I think it's that good), and only like 2-4 would rather have Magic Guard. Scald burns are hax-reliant. For hazards, the opponent takes a risk by setting up hazards if you have Magic Bounce, while there is no risk if Magic Guard. So I question how much Magic Guard really benefited your team here > Magic Bounce, especially since it's not unreasonably difficult to remove the hazards. Magic Guard isn't outclassed per se, but Bounce is just better imo.
 
Last edited:
I don't really agree with this comparison, and the main reason is that Magic Guard is an amazing ability, but Magic Bounce is it on steroids (that is, a stupidly good ability). Magic Guard is a perk - it neuters passive damage as form of offense. But Magic Guard is simultaneously a perk and a weapon - it neuters passive damage (for the most part) and threatens to turn it against you. In addition to the fact that the entire hazard game is warped and that it cannot be taunted, it basically threatens to take anything except direct attacks/set up moves and turn it against you. In other words, while Clefable consistently provides utility even if counters exist by walling stuff/pivoting, Sableye consistently provides utility by just existing. The risk/reward of using aggressive status moves gets warped.

I wouldn't go that far with the superiority of Magic Bounce over Magic Guard.

Magic Bounce does nothing to any hazards already up nor does it stop passive damage from them, Scald Burns, sandstorms, etc.

Magic Guard also allows abuse of Life Orb for additional damage with no drawback in addition to not having to worry about hazard or damage from Burn/Toxic.

Magic Bounce is amazing but lets not stretch it.
 
Alright; now the stupid stupid frog is gone time to make some nominations!

Sylveon for B
This is honestly something I thought should happen anyway but I decided to wait off until one of it's biggest checks was gone to solidify it. Sylveon is, simply put, an amazing wallbreaker in this metagame. It didn't technically gain anything new, but the fact that it demolishes Stall so easily - especially Slowbro and Mega Sableye - is a massive boon to it. The Specs set works well on just so many cores and it's ability to easily take down the aforementioned threats lets physical attackers like Gallade, Bisharp and Pinsir really go to town. Of course, it still has some pretty crippling flaws like low speed and horrible weakness to Metagross, so I don't think it should go any higher than B for now.

Gardevoir for D
Don't worry, this isn't Gardevoirite I'm talking about. That'd be fucking dumb; the thing's a beast. I'm talking about pure, vanilla Gardevoir that Karxrida has been hyping up last thread and the beginning of this one but I honestly think didn't deserve the attention or move up until smogfrog died. Karx can probably explain it a lot better and honestly I'm rushing these since it's the beginning of the morning and I just want to get these out since Grenina's gone so I'll probably have to elaborate later; but it basically boils down to the fact that it can be a really fantastic revenge killer with scarf, being the only fairy to have enough base power and speed to do this, and having some great utility options for a scarfer like destiny bond and memento. Can even tank some special hits to come in and can run the same 24 Defence EVs as on the Mega to live LO Latios Psyshocks to kill it. The biggest shame is timid is literally one speed point short of outspeeding 252+ 145s (beedrill and sceptile). I think it can also run modest since modest scarf is 388.5 and timid scarf is 426 and I don't think there's anything too important in between; I'll check it out later tho
 
Phew, Greninja's ban really motived me to do my first post on this thread to finally express my opinion on everything (not that anybody cares sooooooooooooo). First off, I'll start talking about one of the elephants in the room:

121.png
B+ ---> A-

Starmie is just a little less offensive, much more fast and fragile Spinner than Excadrill, who altrought it's been use more often as an sand sweeper, still gets the job done and it's the first to come in mind when talking about a viable hazard remover not having Defog. Outside that, Starmie is literally undergoing for a virtually unstopable increase of viability on the last months; Just think about it: When Aegislash still was OU, Starmie only could pathetically 3HKO him, while for the other player just 1 turn was more than enough, thus making she unviable in OU for quite a long time, which was crutial since newer players never seen the BW Starmie shine, making much more difficult to revive she again nowdays. Then, Aegi was banned; Everyone was talking about Gardevoir, Medicham, Pinsir and Heracross, but then again, Starmie was left into the forgivness and while she gained a lot more viability, no one used her. But then I ask you, why she wasn't used this time?, The awnser is simple: Greninja. Far more used and stabilized in OU, Greninja was faster, stronger and commongly carried Dark Pulse, so once again, no Starmie. And now guess what happened? Greninja get the banhammer this time. It's almost ironic the acumule of luck Starmie has been getting over time, and to my comprehension, if more people start to use her I honestly think the next month or two we will see Starmie back to OU.

Even after I talked all the stuff above, I didn't even get started at all the things she can cover: The most valuable thing about Starmie is that she has 2 main sets, and both checks different things to increase mind-games due to unpredictability. The biggest thing Defensive Stamie can check is definitively Mega Metagross, who on his most standard set (MM/ZHeadbutt/IPunch/HArm or EQ) can only 3HKO her with EQ, and keep in mind that smart players tend to use Hammer Arm to bypass Skarmory and Mandibuzz, so your chances of hard cheking it only rises... But if he carries EQ anyway, you can try Recover stall his PP while trying get a burn from Scald, and after that happens, gg Megagross. Just to not get unallarmed, she also can check non SubCM variants of Keldeo, which is very sweet. As her Offensive variant, things are even better: Excadrill, Garchomp, Gengar, Heatran, Keldeo, Lati@s, Thundurus and Mega Venusaur are all outspeeded and 2HKOed at the very very last, and all pokes I've mentioned are top-tier treats, either offensively or defensively.

As far as ranking goes, I think that A- is a pretty fair deal at this time... A+ has just too much priority going on and A has 6/14 who checks/counters Starmie.

243.png
B+ ---> A / A+

This one is way more radical than Starmie, but it has as much reason to happen. Basically everything I already said about Starmie can be applied to Raikou in the same way, but with a slight difference: He never had something really stoping him to do his job, but then again, Greninja was a very annoying stone on Raikou's shoes. Some people could argue that his only viable set to use in OU was the AV for a very long time, uniquelly to handle Greninja better with the extra Sp.Def buff, and I honestly can't judge these people wrong since, quite frankly, it's true. But then Greninja got banned, and now Raikou sits on a very trolling 115 base speed, who let it outspeeds, among other things: Garchomp, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Keldeo, Lati@s and Thundurus.

However, check bird-spam is the thing Raikou was made for this generation, and even after the strategy had a decline over the past weeks, Raikou is always one of the first to come in mind when thinking about check the likes of Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, AKA the SmogonBirds Co. Besides that, Raikou also has another main hole that isn't check bird-spam, but is a characteristic that many people overlook about him and is very precious to Bulk Offense have on their teams: Raikou is an incredible momentum machine all-around, being able to provide a very fast Volt-Switch to those Offense teams and the ability to directly switch into a plethora of neutral hits to deliver those mentioned pivots. In fact, Raikou is such a good pokémon that if the rising cutoff of the January month were the standard 3.41%, he would been OU right now.

While I think A+ is a bit exagerated, I really think Raikou deserves more attention to get into the proper rank; By now, A is perfect to it... Speaking of A ranks:

310-m.png
A ---> B

Really obvious and quick one: For all what I speak about Raikou, MegaMan is a carbon copy of that while being strongest, quickest with an better ability but with worse bulk. While Raikou can be both an pivot and a bird spam check, MegaMan can only be a pivot, since it lacks the mentioned bulk, cannot hold Lefties and suffer from a gigantic opportunity cost from being a mega.

It still has some advantages over Raikou thought: Manectric is a MUCH better pivot thanks to Intimidate and speed, while also doing more damage due to higher Sp.Atk, but being a mega and failing to do any more than this puts Raikou at a much better landing, so therefore A is just too damn high to it to be. I was considering suggested to drop him all the way to C+, but like I said he has some advantages over Raikou and is better on what he does, but those same advantages doesn't make him any more higher than B for me.

036.png
A+ ---> S

I really wanted to go in depth over this one, but I'm very tired and I would only add more redundancy to the topic, so I'll just make an overview of my opinion: In short, Clefable is a fantastic pokémon that can easily be compared with the actual S rank, being able to run 3 extremely solid sets, 2 extremely solid abilities and a overall base stat that gives tons of freedom to customization. Stall is the most deadliest playstyle actually and notting breaks through him better than Clefable does. She can lure on his best counter, Heatran, with Focus Blast while also having other overlooked things like Psyshock, Knock Off and the rare Healing Wish. It's an overall low-risk/high-reward poke that totally deserves the S rank

Now that I finished to talk about everything I wanted, here are others changes that I can talk in the near future, but for now I'm only write they to everyone express your opinion about because it's freaking 5:00 PM in my GMT and I just wanna sleep a bit:

645.png
A+ ---> A
282-m.png
A+ ---> A
t1uu1nb.png
A
---> A+
462.png
A- ---> A
497.png
We need more time
 
Phew, Greninja's ban really motived me to do my first post on this thread to finally express my opinion on everything (not that anybody cares sooooooooooooo). First off, I'll start talking about one of the elephants in the room:


243.png
B+ ---> A / A+

This one is way more radical than Starmie, but it has as much reason to happen. Basically everything I already said about Starmie can be applied to Raikou in the same way, but with a slight difference: He never had something really stoping him to do his job, but then again, Greninja was a very annoying stone on Raikou's shoes. Some people could argue that his only viable set to use in OU was the AV for a very long time, uniquelly to handle Greninja better with the extra Sp.Def buff, and I honestly can't judge these people wrong since, quite frankly, it's true. But then Greninja got banned, and now Raikou sits on a very trolling 115 base speed, who let it outspeeds, among other things: Garchomp, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Keldeo, Lati@s and Thundurus.

However, check bird-spam is the thing Raikou was made for this generation, and even after the strategy had a decline over the past weeks, Raikou is always one of the first to come in mind when thinking about check the likes of Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, AKA the SmogonBirds Co. Besides that, Raikou also has another main hole that isn't check bird-spam, but is a characteristic that many people overlook about him and is very precious to Bulk Offense have on their teams: Raikou is an incredible momentum machine all-around, being able to provide a very fast Volt-Switch to those Offense teams and the ability to directly switch into a plethora of neutral hits to deliver those mentioned pivots. In fact, Raikou is such a good pokémon that if the rising cutoff of the January month were the standard 3.41%, he would been OU right now.

While I think A+ is a bit exagerated, I really think Raikou deserves more attention to get into the proper rank; By now, A is perfect to it... Speaking of A ranks:

310-m.png
A ---> B

Really obvious and quick one: For all what I speak about Raikou, MegaMan is a carbon copy of that while being strongest, quickest with an better ability but with worse bulk. While Raikou can be both an pivot and a bird spam check, MegaMan can only be a pivot, since it lacks the mentioned bulk, cannot hold Lefties and suffer from a gigantic opportunity cost from being a mega.

It still has some advantages over Raikou thought: Manectric is a MUCH better pivot thanks to Intimidate and speed, while also doing more damage due to higher Sp.Atk, but being a mega and failing to do any more than this puts Raikou at a much better landing, so therefore A is just too damn high to it to be. I was considering suggested to drop him all the way to C+, but like I said he has some advantages over Raikou and is better on what he does, but those same advantages doesn't make him any more higher than B for me.
Dude... Mega Manectric to B? I'm sorry but I don't think that's fair. Firstly; Raikou is not better than mega manectric. They perform similarly, sure but raikou is definitely not better. Manectric has higher special attack meaning he doesnt have to use items that limit him like LO or specs. Higher speed, meaning he outspeeds the whole of the unscarfed meta, and most importantly: He is a much better bird spam check than raikou and check to a lot of things in general because of intimidate which aids his low bulk. Being faster than talonflame and having intimidate means brave bird does piss damage, even at +1 and because he outspeeds talonflame you wont need to worry about flare blitz. Raikou is actually killed by +2 talonflame's flareblitz, so losing to that automatically puts it at a disadvantage compared to manectric.

On another note, they have relatively the same bulk anyway, which means manectric will have more physical bulk because of intimidate so I don't know why you said raikou is bulkier unless you mean the special side.. Also because manectric has overheat/flamethrower, it is able to bypass bulky steels, which in OU there are a shit ton of, something raikou cannot do. Mega Manectric's best selling point for me right now though is that it serves as an awesome check to mega metagross with intimidate and overheat, whereas raikou can only do around 65% if it's specs, which automatically puts it at a big opportunity cost compared to manectric because being locked into an electric move can and will put you in bad situations. So I think mega manectric is perfectly fine where it is. It's a great mega and B/C+ is way to low. It has much more useful advantages over raikou and the only opportunity cost you have when using it is that it takes up a mega slot, but that is made up for with its speed, ability, power and movepool.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Greninja being banned really makes Tentacruel worse. Yes, it was one of the best Greninja checks, but that's not why it was used in the first place, or rather, that's not the only thing it did. It's mainly used on Stall (a playstyle which never needed an extra Greninja counter) to beat the 2 common rock setters Sableye can't really handle namely Clefable and Heatran, while also providing the team with pretty much the best Gengar check there is. The fact that it handled Greninja was just an added bonus to what it already provided, it's still a staple of Stall. I can live with it dropping to B- but not lower.

Surprised no one mentioned this yet but Magneton should drop to C+/C, it lost its main niche in checking Greninja but it still checks Jolly Talon and Starmie so it's still viable.

About Reflect Type Mega Latias, I haven't used it myself yet but I've seen it in action and the amount of stuff it walls while providing Defog support is really impressive, it should definitely be considered when judging MLatias's viability, don't assume Sub CM is the only viable set because it's not.

Clefable is an interesting case because it's required on almost every stall/balance team due to the presence of Mega Sableye, however it's not hard to take advantage of as explained previously. Could go either way really.

Other changes I agree with :
Starmie -> A- (obvious)
Tornadus-T -> B+/A- (the LO set is pretty hard to switch into while the AV set serves as a great pivot that, unlike other pivots, is very difficult to wear down)
Mega Gardevoir -> A (basically there's a switchin to Hyper Voice on many offensive teams now and it's called Mega Metagross)
Gliscor -> A- (Taunt SD eats a lot of balanced teams alive)
Latias -> A (even more vulnerable to MMeta than Latios)
Serperior -> B-
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure about Clefable's placement at this point. While it is good on non-HO teams and provides a ton of support, it also needs a significant amount of support itself since everyone and their mother will carry at least one hard stop to it, the most common being Heatran. While Clefable is able to run moves to lure out its counters and OHKO/cripple them, its low speed makes it difficult to actually kill them when they get free switches (plus smarter players might call your bluff and not send in their answer if you don't have something else to deal with their Ferrothorn/Scizor/Bisharp who should be S-Rank himself). It can go either way for me.


I don't think Greninja being banned really makes Tentacruel worse. Yes, it was one of the best Greninja checks, but that's not why it was used in the first place, or rather, that's not the only thing it did. It's mainly used on Stall (a playstyle which never needed an extra Greninja counter) to beat the 2 common rock setters Sableye can't really handle namely Clefablee and Heatran, while also providing the team with pretty much the best Gengar check there is. The fact that it handled Greninja was just an added bonus to what it already provided, it's still a staple of Stall. I can live with it dropping to B- but not lower.

Surprised no one mentioned this yet but Magneton should drop to C+/C, it lost its main niche in checking Greninja but it still checks Jolly Talon and Starmie so it's still viable.

About Reflect Type Mega Latias, I haven't used it myself yet but I've seen it in action and the amount of stuff it walls while providing Defog support is really impressive, it should definitely be considered when judging MLatias's viability, don't assume Sub CM is the only viable set because it's not.

Clefable is an interesting case because it's required on almost every stall/balance team due to the presence of Mega Sableye, however it's not hard to take advantage of as explained previously. Could go either way really.

Other changes I agree with :
Starmie -> A- (obvious)
Tornadus-T -> B+/A- (the LO set is pretty hard to switch into while the AV set serves as a great pivot that, unlike other pivots, is very difficult to wear down)
Mega Gardevoir -> A (basically there's a switchin to Hyper Voice on many offensive teams now and it's called Mega Metagross)
Gliscor -> A- (Taunt SD eats a lot of balanced teams alive)
Latias -> A (even more vulnerable to MMeta than Latios)
What is this mythical "Clefablee" you speak off? :o
 
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

That should be the dex entry of Clefable.
 
I'm not sure about Clefable's placement at this point. While it is good on non-HO teams and provides a ton of support, it also needs a significant amount of support itself since everyone and their mother will carry at least one hard stop to it, the most common being Heatran. While Clefable is able to run moves to lure out its counters and OHKO/cripple them, its low speed makes it difficult to actually kill them when they get free switches (plus smarter players might call your bluff and not send in their answer if you don't have something else to deal with their Ferrothorn/Scizor/Bisharp who should be S-Rank himself). It can go either way for me.



What is this mythical "Clefablee" you speak off? :o

I don't think she needs significant support, but I don't believe she needs almost none, either. I also felt on earlier pages it could go either way and I get the general vibe from this thread that it could go either way as well, but there seems to be a slight lean towards S ranked.

To me, Clefable is kind of a blanket or glue. Completely unlike Greninja who performed exactly one role so effectively where the only choices were between what abilities to choose. When I consider building a team, I rarely think about Clefable first, because you just don't have to build around Clefable. You don't really get dead set on running a specific set on Clefable, but a few Pokemon in, you realize you need something, and Clefable can almost certainly do it. It is a beautiful thing. This actually plays to her advantage when you play against her because you don't really know what role she is fulfilling. Of course, the better the player, the more likely you can predict what she is doing, but at the same time, the better player using her, the more likely they are to do things deceptively.

She does have some things working against her. She doesn't exactly have the stat total to muscle through things and, I definitely agree, her speed means she usually won't be killing a pokemon that threatens her moderately without taking some to a significant amount of damage. You also basically need full investment in physical bulk for that side to not be a weakness. This shouldn't really stop her from being a significant bonus to the team, but you cannot play her all the recklessly because she doesn't have the stat luxury some of the other pokemon do. Ironically, the best way to counter Clefable is commitment to the strategy that will stop it. Trying to fake them out with something that won't be nailed on the switch is a pretty dangerous game of prediction/overprediction to play, especially if she decides to simply pop a calm mind and you have a plan B threat in there that you are going to have to switch again.

I find Clefable to be a similar game of Russian Roulette to Greninja. The difference of course is that the gun isn't in your mouth every time you pull the trigger. You do have some chances to pull ahead in the prediction war.

Regardless, I would be intrigued to see Clefable go to S class. Almost all pokemon that get there have one specific role(even if there are multiple sets it could run in that role) that they fill which they fulfill so effectively that they get elevated to that status. If Clefable gets to S rank, she will be the first one in quite some time who gets there via the old(but wise) "sum of her parts" saying. I think she is about 10 base defense away from being a shoe-in, but she probably gets there anyway. The only question in my mind is, "Are these slight weaknesses very easy to patch up?".

As I said several pages back, though, I don't think it changes much. Clefable's use will never be as ubiquitous as Lando-T or even Heatran(who I sometimes find myself wondering why he isn't S rank until I play him heavily for a bit), but she functions well on different kinds of teams fulfilling different kinds of roles and is rather adept at it.
 
Phew, Greninja's ban really motived me to do my first post on this thread to finally express my opinion on everything (not that anybody cares sooooooooooooo). First off, I'll start talking about one of the elephants in the room:

121.png
B+ ---> A-

Starmie is just a little less offensive, much more fast and fragile Spinner than Excadrill, who altrought it's been use more often as an sand sweeper, still gets the job done and it's the first to come in mind when talking about a viable hazard remover not having Defog. Outside that, Starmie is literally undergoing for a virtually unstopable increase of viability on the last months; Just think about it: When Aegislash still was OU, Starmie only could pathetically 3HKO him, while for the other player just 1 turn was more than enough, thus making she unviable in OU for quite a long time, which was crutial since newer players never seen the BW Starmie shine, making much more difficult to revive she again nowdays. Then, Aegi was banned; Everyone was talking about Gardevoir, Medicham, Pinsir and Heracross, but then again, Starmie was left into the forgivness and while she gained a lot more viability, no one used her. But then I ask you, why she wasn't used this time?, The awnser is simple: Greninja. Far more used and stabilized in OU, Greninja was faster, stronger and commongly carried Dark Pulse, so once again, no Starmie. And now guess what happened? Greninja get the banhammer this time. It's almost ironic the acumule of luck Starmie has been getting over time, and to my comprehension, if more people start to use her I honestly think the next month or two we will see Starmie back to OU.

Even after I talked all the stuff above, I didn't even get started at all the things she can cover: The most valuable thing about Starmie is that she has 2 main sets, and both checks different things to increase mind-games due to unpredictability. The biggest thing Defensive Stamie can check is definitively Mega Metagross, who on his most standard set (MM/ZHeadbutt/IPunch/HArm or EQ) can only 3HKO her with EQ, and keep in mind that smart players tend to use Hammer Arm to bypass Skarmory and Mandibuzz, so your chances of hard cheking it only rises... But if he carries EQ anyway, you can try Recover stall his PP while trying get a burn from Scald, and after that happens, gg Megagross. Just to not get unallarmed, she also can check non SubCM variants of Keldeo, which is very sweet. As her Offensive variant, things are even better: Excadrill, Garchomp, Gengar, Heatran, Keldeo, Lati@s, Thundurus and Mega Venusaur are all outspeeded and 2HKOed at the very very last, and all pokes I've mentioned are top-tier treats, either offensively or defensively.

As far as ranking goes, I think that A- is a pretty fair deal at this time... A+ has just too much priority going on and A has 6/14 who checks/counters Starmie.

243.png
B+ ---> A / A+

This one is way more radical than Starmie, but it has as much reason to happen. Basically everything I already said about Starmie can be applied to Raikou in the same way, but with a slight difference: He never had something really stoping him to do his job, but then again, Greninja was a very annoying stone on Raikou's shoes. Some people could argue that his only viable set to use in OU was the AV for a very long time, uniquelly to handle Greninja better with the extra Sp.Def buff, and I honestly can't judge these people wrong since, quite frankly, it's true. But then Greninja got banned, and now Raikou sits on a very trolling 115 base speed, who let it outspeeds, among other things: Garchomp, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Keldeo, Lati@s and Thundurus.

However, check bird-spam is the thing Raikou was made for this generation, and even after the strategy had a decline over the past weeks, Raikou is always one of the first to come in mind when thinking about check the likes of Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, AKA the SmogonBirds Co. Besides that, Raikou also has another main hole that isn't check bird-spam, but is a characteristic that many people overlook about him and is very precious to Bulk Offense have on their teams: Raikou is an incredible momentum machine all-around, being able to provide a very fast Volt-Switch to those Offense teams and the ability to directly switch into a plethora of neutral hits to deliver those mentioned pivots. In fact, Raikou is such a good pokémon that if the rising cutoff of the January month were the standard 3.41%, he would been OU right now.

While I think A+ is a bit exagerated, I really think Raikou deserves more attention to get into the proper rank; By now, A is perfect to it... Speaking of A ranks:

310-m.png
A ---> B

Really obvious and quick one: For all what I speak about Raikou, MegaMan is a carbon copy of that while being strongest, quickest with an better ability but with worse bulk. While Raikou can be both an pivot and a bird spam check, MegaMan can only be a pivot, since it lacks the mentioned bulk, cannot hold Lefties and suffer from a gigantic opportunity cost from being a mega.

It still has some advantages over Raikou thought: Manectric is a MUCH better pivot thanks to Intimidate and speed, while also doing more damage due to higher Sp.Atk, but being a mega and failing to do any more than this puts Raikou at a much better landing, so therefore A is just too damn high to it to be. I was considering suggested to drop him all the way to C+, but like I said he has some advantages over Raikou and is better on what he does, but those same advantages doesn't make him any more higher than B for me.

036.png
A+ ---> S

I really wanted to go in depth over this one, but I'm very tired and I would only add more redundancy to the topic, so I'll just make an overview of my opinion: In short, Clefable is a fantastic pokémon that can easily be compared with the actual S rank, being able to run 3 extremely solid sets, 2 extremely solid abilities and a overall base stat that gives tons of freedom to customization. Stall is the most deadliest playstyle actually and notting breaks through him better than Clefable does. She can lure on his best counter, Heatran, with Focus Blast while also having other overlooked things like Psyshock, Knock Off and the rare Healing Wish. It's an overall low-risk/high-reward poke that totally deserves the S rank

Now that I finished to talk about everything I wanted, here are others changes that I can talk in the near future, but for now I'm only write they to everyone express your opinion about because it's freaking 5:00 PM in my GMT and I just wanna sleep a bit:

645.png
A+ ---> A
282-m.png
A+ ---> A
t1uu1nb.png
A
---> A+
462.png
A- ---> A
497.png
We need more time

Finally my favorite not Uber(shouts to Blaziken up there) aka Raikou getting a little more love, tbh I think Raikou should be at -A/A because now with Greninja gone he can use much better a Choice Specs or an AV set, the other thing that helps him is that previously the opportunity cost of using MegaManectric over him was not that big, but with the addition of more Megas in ORAS it became more difficult to use him, and now that his speed tier is not THAT needed since Greninja is banned it makes it more difficult to choose him over Raikou.

After saying that I think Manectric is too good to be below B+, he is superior to Raikou as a birdspam check, his speed tier is very impressive, the problem comes when you analize and try to find a reason for why to use him over M-Metagross,M-Altaria,M-Lopunny,M-Sableye,M-Slowbro,etc. who are just incredible amazing at what they accomplish and cannot be fulfilled to near the same extent by a non-mega mon.
 
Clefable for S rank

S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Many people have mentioned comparing Clefable to Greninja, which is what I plan on elaborating on here.

Greninja is an excellent glue pokemon. There's no drawback to putting him on your team. He can use a plethora of different sets, all of which are effective and without support he can reliably beat all of his counters, or punch a hole through your team! It can preform a lot of different roles on your team, All-out-attacker, Hazard setter, u-turner, revenge killer and Scarfer. Probably other roles it fills but those are the ones I remember. All of which are viable enough to justify it's place on your team!

Clefable is an excellent glue pokemon. There's no drawback to putting him on your team. He can use a plethora of different sets, all of which are effective and without support he can reliably beat all of his counters, or punch a hole through your team! It can preform a lot of different roles on your team, Stallbreaker, Hazard setter, All-out-attacker, Setup sweeper CM & Cosmic Power, Wish passer, Cleric and Specs. Probably other roles it fills but those are the ones I remember. All of which are viable enough to justify it's place on your team!

I'm not going to go into how Greninja beats it counters, if you want to know how go to the Greninja suspect test thread.

Clefables "counters" in OU and UU are: Heatran, Venusaur, Magnezone, Jirachi, Victini, Amoongus and Gothitelle. These are som of the best checks, or counters to Clefable. But he has his ways to get past these mons, or really really tent them on the way in. And you could obviously switch right out(Bar Gothitelle).

Heatran, Venusaur, Jirachi, Magnezone and Amoongus
Checked by All-Out-Attacker

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / SpD
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Fire Blast/Thunderbolt/Icebeam
- Focus Blast/Psyshock(Psychic)/Hidden power Ground/Knock off

So All-out-Attacker set is used to bait in common counters to clefable for them to get booped by the right coverage move. Moonblast is basically mandatory stab. Fire blast for Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Amoongus. Thunderbolt for none mega evolved Gyarados, Talonflame, Azumarill, Charizard and Slowbro. Ice beam is for Gliscor as you're stalled out by the Sp.def set(Taunt) and Zapdos. Focus blast for Heatran and Bisharp, though Fire blast works for Bisharp aswell. Psychic is for Amoongus and Mega Venusaur. Psyshock works the best for Amoongus since the Assault vest set is common and Amoongus has a higher base Special defense. Psychic works best for Mega Venusaur as it usually runs defense over Special defense. Hidden Power ground is a more accurace option for Heatran. Knock off is a really spamma-able move that you could hit Cleric Chansey on the way in. Soft-Boiled is for healing.
Calcs:
[/hide]
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 213-252 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-229 (53.4 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 302-356 (107 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 200-237 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 296-351 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Victini & Gothitelle
Cosmic power or Calm mind

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD Or 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature/Bold Nature
- Moonblast/Stored power
- Fire Blast/Charge beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind/Cosmic power

This set works around Victini and Gothitelle. If Victini comes in on a Cosmic power he can't 2HKO with V-create and you're free to heal up then continue Boosting. Gothitelle comes in on a CM and it's then 2HKO as it tricks you, but gothitelle is still killed.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gothitelle: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Clefable for S rank!
 
Clefable for S rank
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Many people have mentioned comparing Clefable to Greninja, which is what I plan on elaborating on here.

Greninja is an excellent glue pokemon. There's no drawback to putting him on your team. He can use a plethora of different sets, all of which are effective and without support he can reliably beat all of his counters, or punch a hole through your team! It can preform a lot of different roles on your team, All-out-attacker, Hazard setter, u-turner, revenge killer and Scarfer. Probably other roles it fills but those are the ones I remember. All of which are viable enough to justify it's place on your team!

Clefable is an excellent glue pokemon. There's no drawback to putting him on your team. He can use a plethora of different sets, all of which are effective and without support he can reliably beat all of his counters, or punch a hole through your team! It can preform a lot of different roles on your team, Stallbreaker, Hazard setter, All-out-attacker, Setup sweeper CM & Cosmic Power, Wish passer, Cleric and Specs. Probably other roles it fills but those are the ones I remember. All of which are viable enough to justify it's place on your team!

I'm not going to go into how Greninja beats it counters, if you want to know how go to the Greninja suspect test thread.

Clefables "counters" in OU and UU are: Heatran, Venusaur, Magnezone, Jirachi, Victini, Amoongus and Gothitelle. These are som of the best checks, or counters to Clefable. But he has his ways to get past these mons, or really really tent them on the way in. And you could obviously switch right out(Bar Gothitelle).

Heatran, Venusaur, Jirachi, Magnezone and Amoongus
Checked by All-Out-Attacker

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / SpD
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Fire Blast/Thunderbolt/Icebeam
- Focus Blast/Psyshock(Psychic)/Hidden power Ground/Knock off

So All-out-Attacker set is used to bait in common counters to clefable for them to get booped by the right coverage move. Moonblast is basically mandatory stab. Fire blast for Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Amoongus. Thunderbolt for none mega evolved Gyarados, Talonflame, Azumarill, Charizard and Slowbro. Ice beam is for Gliscor as you're stalled out by the Sp.def set(Taunt) and Zapdos. Focus blast for Heatran and Bisharp, though Fire blast works for Bisharp aswell. Psychic is for Amoongus and Mega Venusaur. Psyshock works the best for Amoongus since the Assault vest set is common and Amoongus has a higher base Special defense. Psychic works best for Mega Venusaur as it usually runs defense over Special defense. Hidden Power ground is a more accurace option for Heatran. Knock off is a really spamma-able move that you could hit Cleric Chansey on the way in. Soft-Boiled is for healing.
Calcs:
[/hide]
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 213-252 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-229 (53.4 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 302-356 (107 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 200-237 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 296-351 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Victini & Gothitelle
Cosmic power or Calm mind

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD Or 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature/Bold Nature
- Moonblast/Stored power
- Fire Blast/Charge beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind/Cosmic power

This set works around Victini and Gothitelle. If Victini comes in on a Cosmic power he can't 2HKO with V-create and you're free to heal up then continue Boosting. Gothitelle comes in on a CM and it's then 2HKO as it tricks you, but gothitelle is still killed.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gothitelle: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Clefable for S rank!
While I do agree with ure nomination of clef, I would just like to say that specs clef is 100% outclassed by sylveon (I guess coverage, but wouldn't u rather have a better stab move?)

I do see the point in lo clef, that is a straight up waste of clefs potential Imo. As yeah, lo does synergise amazingly well with magic guard, but clefs potential lies in defensive and sweeping sets, as it is heavily outclae
Sea as an all out fairy attacker by sylvan, M-Man view, azumarilland M-Garde, heck even NORMAL garde is better as an all out attacker. Clef should only run lo on cm sets with a bit of investment to 2hko chansey at +6 and to be more immediately threatening after a cm, but it shouldn't be running all out attacker.

Cosmic power clef is also bad as even though it can sweep in absolute perfect situations, it's pretty easy to stop and is pretty passive, I know I would rather use cm as clef is bulky enough with its typing to take most neutral physical hits, as not much hits it Super effective as fairy is such a great defensive typing, and super effective physical hits will likely break through u even at +1, as physical steel and poison type moves are nearly always run as stab attacks by strong sweepers (eg. M-gross, bishop, toxicroak etc). So cm will, 99 times out of 100, be much better.As it results in more consistent and threatening sweeping potential.

So TL;dr, clef for s, but please don't use specs or all out attacker lo clef or cosmic power clef, it is a waste of clefs potential and is done better by other things.

Have a nice day

Edit: rip frog, enjoy ure stupid puny niche in ubers :P
 
Last edited:
Alriiiiiight, college ended way early today, time to get my thoughts out on a couple things here.

310-m.png
243.png

First off, the little controversy over these two. To start, I'd like to say that a rise of Raikou to A- is way, way overdue for reasons stated many, many times. But aside from that, my stance is that wherever these two get moved, the other should be one sub-rank away from it at most. This is because in general, I find them to be extremely similar Pokémon with very similar roles, but unlike Megacham and Megalade where one clearly outclasses the other and the other just has one or two little niches to sort of justify it's placement, Raikou and Mega Man have enough advantages and disadvantages to each other to be balanced out in my opinion. Now, if Mega Man didn't take up the Mega slot, my honest feeling is that it would be the better Pokémon. Things have been mentioned about it's inferior bulk, but honestly, Intimidate more than makes up for it and it's special bulk is irrelevant when Birdspam's extent of special offence is... Mega Pidgeot? Fuckin'... Talonflame Fire Blast? lel. It's faster, has more power behind it's attacks, has an obviously much better ability, and arguably Flamethrower is generally better than Shadow Ball. Raikou, on the other hand, does not take up the Mega Slot and can hold an item, which is crucial to it's success. Ass Vest Ass Best, a wise man once said, and the Scarf sets really aren't anything to scoff at either. It still has similar power and sort of enough speed (though obviously it can't really get by anything between 115 and 135), which does let it outspeed the new 110 Megas. At the end of the day, I find they fill the same niche while providing different, unique qualities which essentially makes them the same Pokémon. I say A- for both.

308-m.png

I think I'm the only one who's an asshole to this as much as Alexwolf lol. Personally, I'm thinking it should move down to C. My reasoning for this generally goes along the lines of it seeming more comparable to the Pokémon in C than the ones in C+. What I personally see in C+ is that while they're generally ineffective compared to A-ranked 'mon, it contains Pokémon which have a lot of unique niches and qualities that no other Pokémon can really claim. Staraptor is a Birdspam wallbreaker, Camerupt is a fantastic Trick Room abuser, Ampharos is a great tank, Dragalge and Serperior... well, fuck, they're just godly. Compared to those... would you really put this outclassed thing on the same level as them, especially with so many other wallbreakers existing now aside from just being outclassed by Gallade, and then you've got Slowbro and Sableye on top of that? Hell, it's main STAB is completely torn to shreds by Protect and the aforementioned Sableye switch-in. Now the Pokémon in C rank? They seem to be the level 'Cham is on now. Mega Aggron and Blastoise who are decent Pokémon by themselves, but are generally outclassed by other Megas or hell even normal Pokémon in their roles, yet they still have good, defined niches to keep them there. You've even got a base 100 speed Mega with ridiculous power and frail defences there that's brilliant for wallbreaking yet generally outclassed; sound familiar? At the end of the day I just can't see Mega Cham on the level of Mega Pidgeot. Make it roomies with Glalie in C.

Fj9Ab0G.png
214-m.png

I'm just being a really horrible person to Megas today. B+ Rank for both. The reasons for this are along the same lines as my reasoning for 'Cham - to me, the S and A ranks seem to consist of Pokémon that are the best of the best in OU; the ones you either pick first for your team, or are the premier choices as teammates. The absolute best staples on multiple playstyles. While Hera may have been this in the post-Aegis XY Meta, can anyone honestly tell me these two fit those 'best staples' definitions now? Don't get me wrong, what they do is fantastic, but they are so limited in their roles and would not be the first choice for a player imo. Heracross is generally outclassed by Gallade and such as a wallbreaker these days, and with the speed creep it finds it hard to keep up, not to mention it's not as good against stall anymore because lolsableye. Fucking hell, who ever thought that one little beat-brawly gimmick would be such a force in the OU meta... meanwhile, Latiasite is a very specific, specialized set that's only good for a few teams, and takes away Latias, which I honestly find to be one of the defining Pokémon on Balance, a very versatile and unique threat which offers so much to a lot of teams and has been a staple for four gens now. ... two gens, it was banned in gen 4, wasn't it? Regardless, I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these two suffer a lot from opportunity cost; Heracronite because you've got a lot of better options for physical mega wallbreakers now, and Latiasite because you can't use Latias, one of the best Pokémon on Balance. However, they still have their defined uses and they're still brilliant Pokémon, hence B+ seems the best fit for them.


On another note; I feel I'm being swayed towards these rises.
036.png
A+ --> S
497.png
C+ --> B-
638MS.png
C+ --> B-

I feel I'd generally support all three; but I think I'd need more convincing on Clefable.
Also start using the correct Cobalion sprite that's right here plz.


Alas, poor Blue S-rank, I knew him OU; a fellow of infinite borked, of most excellent colour; he hath limited mine teambuilding a thousand times; and now, how abhorringly balanced and varied it is! My heart hurts at it. Here hung that blueness that I have joked of I know not how oft. Where be your power now? Your Brokenness? Your stagnant metagame? Your infinite hues of blue, that were wont to set the table on a roar?
 
Last edited:
Going to make this short because I'm heading out soon but I don't entirely get where people are coming from in regards to Raikou being A-. I get that it checks a crowded 110 speed tier but this isn't exactly a new occurrence. There hasn't been anything favorable for Raikou to note in the metagame other than the same old acts that it has pulled off and is overall a pretty linear mon. Hippowdons rising usage is actually a pretty solid indicator that Raikou will not always have a level of consistency you would expect from an A ranked threat. Sort of confused where people are coming from with this logic I suppose.
 
Going to make this short because I'm heading out soon but I don't entirely get where people are coming from in regards to Raikou being A-. I get that it checks a crowded 110 speed tier but this isn't exactly a new occurrence. There hasn't been anything favorable for Raikou to note in the metagame other than the same old acts that it has pulled off and is overall a pretty linear mon. Hippowdons rising usage is actually a pretty solid indicator that Raikou will not always have a level of consistency you would expect from an A ranked threat. Sort of confused where people are coming from with this logic I suppose.
I don't think it's because of anything new as such; in fact, quite the opposite -- very little seems to have changed at all for Raikou. The thing is iirc people wanted Raikou to rise in the XY Viability Thread anyway before it got shut down; the general feeling was that it's being under-represented and has been for a while now, not necessarily because of anything new in ORAS.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top