Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[WideTomato]

Latitwins hit harder, have many more niches such as defog, a speed tier decent enough to speed tie some of the faster threats, recovery, and nice coverage. If you want to run a sub+CM keldeo latias is around the corner with better speed and recovery. The only thing keldeo has over the latitwins is dark resistance meaning no pursuit trapping, and before greninja was banned.. keldeo was effective at coming in on it with scarf, killing greninja or nailing a switch in with a super strong STAB move. Without greninja keldeo doesn't have as much use over the eons outside typing syngery with certain teams. He doesn't switch into much outside of greninjas who foregoed extrasensory in this meta and that's exactly what was removed.. turning keldeo into more of a momentum killer/dead weight depending on team match up.

Troll?

Well, you don't really seem to get it, keldeo being less effective against without greninja?? Might apply for scarf, but that's really not its only set. Sub cm eon with recovery? Because mono dragon or mono psychic is so good, the only thing actually runing us cm is mega Latias.

Outside of type synergy? Well how the would two special attackers difference themselves outside of that? Keldeo have different stab moves, different resist, the only thing the two share is being special attackers. And two more points in speed is not enough to ever use the Latis as replacement for keld.

Keldeo is a nice check to bisharp, tyranitar and m gyara, Latis gets eaten by those. Keldeo is great against sand, lati is not. Keldeo and Latis are so freaking different I can't help laugh at someone comparing them the way you do! I could explain it in a lot more details, but I find it laughable that it is even necessary.

Also, while you might not consider keld for S, it is still one of the stronger A+ mons, you basically treat it as if whas something gimmicky nominated to D rank for its ability to check greninja.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

Latitwins hit harder, have many more niches such as defog, a speed tier decent enough to speed tie some of the faster threats, recovery, and nice coverage. If you want to run a sub+CM keldeo latias is around the corner with better speed and recovery. The only thing keldeo has over the latitwins is dark resistance meaning no pursuit trapping, and before greninja was banned.. keldeo was effective at coming in on it with scarf, killing greninja or nailing a switch in with a super strong STAB move. Without greninja keldeo doesn't have as much use over the eons outside typing syngery with certain teams. He doesn't switch into much outside of greninjas who foregoed extrasensory in this meta and that's exactly what was removed.. turning keldeo into more of a momentum killer/dead weight depending on team match up.

Keldeo has the ability to absolutely murder balance and stall cores between its dual stabs, while the latis usually fail to muscle past their hardest checks. While I don't agree with Keld being S, I also don't agree with the latis outclassing it in any way (they're completely different mons).

 

[Jojobobo]

S rank is waaaaay too high. Read previous posts to see why. Responding to this so people dont come at you with pitchforks and go insane over this nomination. But yeah read back some older posts man.

I've read some, and it seems like the main issues are that it has low bulk and a pretty resisted STAB. Having said this at the +2 even things that resist its STAB become 2HKOs, meaning there's very little that's safe to switch in - it also often only needs that one boost because of the ridiculous STAB Leaf Storm, making it difficult to play around. With moves like Taunt, stall is denied any recovery allowing it to pretty easily get through things life Chansey and Unaware Clefable. Gastro Acid can be used to royally mess with the opposition, allowing you to remove things like Scrappy, Unaware, Pixilate, Adaptability, Gale Wings, Technician, Huge Power, Tough Claws, Prankster, Sheer Force, Drought, Sandstorm, Drizzle, Thick Fat, Shadow Tag and Sap Sipper - facilitating you staying in or making a switch massively more simple (yes, Gastro Acid does hit steel types).

I think at the very least it's an A - speed, hard to play around and versatility in that last move slot even if extra coverage is desirable.

The problem with Serperior is that although it has a stellar base 113 speed stat, Glare, and practically a Base 130 Nasty Plot in Contrary Leaf Storm, it's very weak right off the bat. Grass typing isn't that good offensively to force switches as it hits few things viable in the OU tier for super effective damage. On top of that, there are many mons that resist Leaf Storm that Serperior needs a Hidden Power to beat such as Heatran, Bisharp, Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, (Mega) Scizor, Jirachi, and so on. I can see Serperior being B-, but at this point, no higher than that.

But things like mega Metagross aren't even a safe switch though with Life Orb, taking 29.1% from Leaf Storm minimum then easily being finished off by HP Ground or Fire (73% minimum). As I mentioned, once it is at the +2 it can 2HKO many x2 resists with Leaf Storm too - like Mega Altaria - limiting the switch-ins the opponent can make. I think it's much more of a threat then people realise, but maybe the post-Greninja meta game still needs a little time for that to become clear.

 

[heritage]

I've read some, and it seems like the main issues are that it has low bulk and a pretty resisted STAB. Having said this at the +2 even things that resist its STAB become 2HKOs, meaning there's very little that's safe to switch in - it also often only needs that one boost because of the ridiculous STAB Leaf Storm, making it difficult to play around. With moves like Taunt, stall is denied any recovery allowing it to pretty easily get through things life Chansey and Unaware Clefable. Gastro Acid can be used to royally mess with the opposition, allowing you to remove things like Scrappy, Unaware, Pixilate, Adaptability, Gale Wings, Technician, Huge Power, Tough Claws, Prankster, Sheer Force, Drought, Sandstorm, Drizzle, Thick Fat, Shadow Tag and Sap Sipper - facilitating you staying in or making a switch massively more simple (yes, Gastro Acid does hit steel types).

I think at the very least it's an A - speed, hard to play around and versatility in that last move slot even if extra coverage is desirable.


But things like mega Metagross aren't even a safe switch though with Life Orb, taking 29.1% from Leaf Storm minimum then easily being finished off by HP Ground or Fire (73% minimum). As I mentioned, once it is at the +2 it can 2HKO many x2 resists with Leaf Storm too - like Mega Altaria - limiting the switch-ins the opponent can make. I think it's much more of a threat then people realise, but maybe the post-Greninja meta game still needs a little time for that to become clear.

Oh, people realize it's a threat. And it certainly is, eating up all of stall, but that's it. There are so many offensive checks to it. Serperior's movepool is literal ass. Grass / Dragon coverage is actually pretty cool, but that doesn't make it good. People have stated why it's not that great. I mean, yeah, if you let it get going its a problem. People know it's a bit of a threat, but you have to be kidding if you think it's on the ranks of Mega Meta and Lando-T. Even A- is way too high. It's fine at C+.
And not to be rude, but where on earth could you fit Gastro Acid onto a set? It already needs Leaf Storm / Glare / HP Whatever / Leech Seed / Dragon Pulse, so yeah

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Troll?

10/10 gj argument over you're a fucking genius I'm convinced now. Keldeo for S, reason: I'm a troll.

Well, you don't really seem to get it, keldeo being less effective against without greninja?? Might apply for scarf, but that's really not its only set. Sub cm eon with recovery? Because mono dragon or mono psychic is so good, the only thing actually runing us cm is mega Latias.

Calm mind is used by sableye, mega bro, clefable, and manaphy, as well as latias. I could throw a few more like garde but I'm not so sure if CM is really their thing. The pokemon mentions all fill the role as calm minders much more effectively.. keldeo is revenge killed instantly by talonflame or the like and sub+CM hinders it's effectiveness greatly losing out on needed coverage. Scald/Hydro and secret sword? Shut down entirely by mega bro, lati, you should be able to see it staring at the viability rankings.

You give me the exact reason why I'd run CM keldeo vs. the other mons and if it's reasonable maybe I'll see some kind of point but otherwise I see no reason not to run sableye who fucks stall and (bearly) HO alike over keldeo.

Outside of type synergy? Well how the would two special attackers difference themselves outside of that? Keldeo have different stab moves, different resist, the only thing the two share is being special attackers. And two more points in speed is not enough to ever use the Latis as replacement for keld.

Difference resist yes exactly, but look at what those resist are. Keldeo cannot switch into anything in particular outside maybe heatran. It's not that effective as you're trying to make it sound. It certainly is A+ or even just A in my eyes but S is extremely too high..

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Keldeo isn't low risk.. it's pretty mid-risk high reward tbh. It has solid counters and checks that shut it down effectively preventing it from doing it's roles. There are more than just a few flaws to justify it from going to S and the latitwins as my comparison are used because they fill many many more roles effectively than keldeo yet aren't S rank themselves (atleast not any more).

Keldeo is a nice check to bisharp, tyranitar and m gyara, Latis gets eaten by those. Keldeo is great against sand, lati is not. Keldeo and Latis are so freaking different I can't help laugh at someone comparing them the way you do! I could explain it in a lot more details, but I find it laughable that it is even necessary

How on earth is keldeo a check to sand teams? That's like saying gyarados should be S because it checks sand.. almost anything can check sand which is why it's so team match up reliant. That is not a reason for keldeo to go to S. Bisharp yeah but that's typing syngery for you, it trades a weakness to pursuit, u-turn and other moves for more spammable ones like bird spam, fairy, electric, grass, and psychic. Again, the latitwins are different, but they have their perks that keldeo lacks while still remaining in the A ranks. They're different pokemon but you tell me that keldeo is more worthy for S than latios who isn't really either?

 

[Bundy300]

Clefable - Definitely S-Rank
Serperior - Man, I'm not convinced with this thing. I say it's all hype. C if anything.
Tornadus-T - No opinion on him.
Volcarona - Volcarona is B-? I feel his offensive power doesn't make up for the support it needs unlike Char-Y who will always pull trough and prob KO atleast 2 pokes. C- for me.
Raikou - I agree with Kurona, Raikou is good enough for A.
Haxorus - His stats and ability are really good, can 2hko defensive clefable on the switch. It deserves C+

Now the mon I really want to talk about. Shadow Zoroark

I want to nominate Zoroark for B-/B. When I look at the pokemon in B rank I think that's the perfect place for Zoro to fit in. Dark has become an important type in gen 6 if it wasn't already. What it has over it's fellow Dark mons is it's suprise factor, good speed (second to no non-mega Dark bar Weavile), and his superior ability to go mixed.

I like Zoro because he does what most dark mons do, but most dark mons can't do what he does. He rids annoying items, lures and suprise kills threat's or tanks, cleans weakened mons and more.

The set I've been toying with :

(Zoroark) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 192 Atk / 92 SpA / 224 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot
- Sucker Punch

It's the UU mixed attacker set but I changed it's ev so it will always outspeed + Base 101 pokes (like Landorus-I)

Some relevant calcs on the mons it will lure :
92 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 322-385 (91.4 - 109.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
192 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
92 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 286-338 (105.1 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
192 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 307-361 (96.2 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 283-335 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 536-634 (136 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Same for mamoswine)

Zoroark is frail, but it does not stop him from doing what he needs to do. I have two more relevant calcs :
Latios Psyshock vs. Zoroark: 0-0 (0 - 0%)
Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. Zoroark: 0-0 (0 - 0%)



I want to end my post with a tribute to Zoroark~ http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-200405093

 

[McBeengs]

Salamence has lost any viability he even had when we banned Salamencite a few weeks ago. Now his only niche would be a Scarfed Moxie Sweeper, but even then it's extremely outclassed by any DD user in OU, thanks to it's bad typing and horrible stats for an sweeper. To put things into a perspective, Garchomp and Keldeo are much better Scarfers that kill a lot of stuff while also not having a weakness to SR. As far as the boosting set goes, every single pkm that has DD on their moveset is a better sweeper with things like Charizard X and Mega Altaria dominating this category, leavin literally no room for Salamence to be ranked at all, and is because those arguments that I'll be nominating Salamence to D ---> Unranked.

 

[Jojobobo]

Oh, people realize it's a threat. And it certainly is, eating up all of stall, but that's it. There are so many offensive checks to it. Serperior's movepool is literal ass. Grass / Dragon coverage is actually pretty cool, but that doesn't make it good. People have stated why it's not that great. I mean, yeah, if you let it get going its a problem. People know it's a bit of a threat, but you have to be kidding if you think it's on the ranks of Mega Meta and Lando-T. Even A- is way too high. It's fine at C+.
And not to be rude, but where on earth could you fit Gastro Acid onto a set? It already needs Leaf Storm / Glare / HP Whatever / Leech Seed / Dragon Pulse, so yeah

I really think the ability to boost with a very high BP STAB does make it very good, and yes on par with Mega Meta and Lando. It really needs so little to get going and can get to plus 6 extremely easily - avoiding letting it get going is far from trivial when it really only needs the one boost. Beyond that it really doesn't need very much at all by way of support, which by definition is the mark of one of the higher ranking pokemon.

Gastro Acid could easily replace Glare, especially as it allows you to get through checks and can temporarily nerf a switch - which late game could be even more severe than paralysis. Glare offers a more permanent nerf, but it really depends on whether you need the opponent paralysed given Serperior's already great speed.

 

[heritage]

Salamence can stay in D. It actually has an advantage over other Dragon Dancers with Moxie. I mean, Dragonite has Multiscale, but Salamence is faster and hits harder. Not to mention that Dragonite's ability becomes worthless with Stealth Rocks. Salamence becomes harder and harder to wall after a kill. People always use the excuse of Fairy types since they wall Mence, but those people obviously haven't used it to its full potential. You're supposed to remove Fairy types before you use Salamence. The Scarf set is actually pretty decent, but I honestly thing that it's an extremely underrated Dragon Dancer. D rank is fine for it.

I really think the ability to boost with a very high BP STAB does make it very good, and yes on par with Mega Meta and Lando. It really needs so little to get going and can get to plus 6 extremely easily - avoiding letting it get going is far from trivial when it really only needs the one boost. Beyond that it really doesn't need very much at all by way of support, which by definition is the mark of one of the higher ranking pokemon.

Gastro Acid could easily replace Glare, especially as it allows you to get through checks and can temporarily nerf a switch - which late game could be even more severe than paralysis. Glare offers a more permanent nerf, but it really depends on whether you need the opponent paralysed given Serperior's already great speed.

Then I shall take your opinion with a grain of salt. If you truly believe Serperior is as good as Mega Metagross and M-Sab, then you clearly have no understanding of the meta, and I will leave it at that.

 

[Kurona]

To add to Recreant 's post, it needs Giga Drain and possibly Synthesis a lot more than Leech Seed and Glare. I don't even think Glare's viable out of UU. The main set is Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/HP/Giga Drain, and honestly it needs every single one of those to be effective in OU.

 

[wolfenstein]

10/10 gj argument over you're a fucking genius I'm convinced now. Keldeo for S, reason: I'm a troll.

Ok let me explain this so you understand what the guy meant.

Calm mind is used by sableye, mega bro, clefable, and manaphy, as well as latias. I could throw a few more like garde but I'm not so sure if CM is really their thing. The pokemon mentions all fill the role as calm minders much more effectively.. keldeo is revenge killed instantly by talonflame or the like and sub+CM hinders it's effectiveness greatly losing out on needed coverage. Scald/Hydro and secret sword? Shut down entirely by mega bro, lati, you should be able to see it staring at the viability rankings.

You give me the exact reason why I'd run CM keldeo vs. the other mons and if it's reasonable maybe I'll see some kind of point but otherwise I see no reason not to run sableye who fucks stall and (bearly) HO alike over keldeo.

Just because 2 things use calm mind does not make any one of them better than the other. Literally every pokemon you mentioned serves different roles as calm mind users. No they do not fill the calm mind role more ffectively because the roles are different for very obvious reasons. The pokemon you mentioned dont even have the same typing, let alone the same speed and stats, so how does that mean one outclasses the other as a calm minder lol? Sub Cm set doesnt even need coverage. Scald and Secret sword is great coverage as it is, because even if you can break through slowbro you have the chance to burn it which is a very big part of the sub CM set, and some people don't seem to understand that. The set as itself has a huge impact on the meta, with sub helping you to setup on way more things than any of the other pokemon you mentioned and with scald you have a chance to burn common counters like latias/os and slowbro, celebi, etc etc. which only helps keldeo more and that is why it's such a great set and why it differs from other cm users. You don't need coverage for slowbro, the latis or whatever else when you get off big chip damage so you can kill them later. Also, not many CM users have perfect coverage anyway and they usually dont even need it, yet they are all effective so idk where that argument came from.

I also don't get why you need a reason to use keldeo CM lol... I mean why do you use any set up sweeper? for their stats and typing mainly, and keldeo has both great stats and an amazing typing that no other CM user has so I really don't know how I can convince you more lmao. In case you didn't know because of it's typing and speed it sets up on a lot of common pokemon, is an offensive check to things like excadrill, bisharp and tyranitar and can set up on them too and even without coverage it can hinder its checks with scald burns. I mean unless you want me to lecture you on why the CM set it so great I don't think you need much more reason.

Difference resist yes exactly, but look at what those resist are. Keldeo cannot switch into anything in particular outside maybe heatran. It's not that effective as you're trying to make it sound. It certainly is A+ or even just A in my eyes but S is extremely too high..

Did you even look at the OU list before making this statement? Of course keldeo can switch in to a lot of things including tyranitar, heatran, bisharp, mega gyarados, scizor all of which are very common offensive pokemon, not to mention it checks and counters a large sum of the defensive meta too like gliscor, chansey, ferrothorn, etc. Latias has way more common weaknesses than keldeo, that's for sure, so they aren't even comparable.

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Keldeo isn't low risk.. it's pretty mid-risk high reward tbh. It has solid counters and checks that shut it down effectively preventing it from doing it's roles. There are more than just a few flaws to justify it from going to S and the latitwins as my comparison are used because they fill many many more roles effectively than keldeo yet aren't S rank themselves (atleast not any more).

Please, name me a reason why this thing is low risk? its hardly set up bait for anything in the tier and even if the lati twins can check it, they still fear scald burns, and are very easy to check themselves because of pursuit trap. Furthermore, keldeo actually fills way more roles than the lati twins if you ask me. With specs, CM or even scarf it checks a lot more common things and can perform the wallbreaker and set up sweeper role way better.

Also to sum up your last point cus I"m too lazy to put it in quote... Obviously every pokemon has perks that others dont have. Keldeo just so happens to have way better perks than the latis do in this meta and that is the grounds in which it deserves a rise, higher than them even.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Exploud: C- ----> C

I think Exploud should rise to C since it's almost a perfect counter to Mega Sableye. Exploud can easily switch into it and lol at it. It doesn't care about WoW or Shadow Ball while +1 Dark Pulse fails to 2HKO. It outspeeds and 2HKOes with Specs Boomburst (even at +1!). It also scares the crap out of Clefable and Mega Slowbro. Actually, this thing has very few counters overall. I really think this guy got better in ORAS.

Also, loltrevenant

 

[Flarowak]

Wolfenstein He just need like 7 for you...not two. I have never felt threatened by calm mind keldeo tbh. It's mostly due to it's mediocre bulk and speed tier. After this game was released their are too many things that deal with it as well as outspeed it, worst part is keldeo can't even rely on CM boosts for most of them because they hit his physical d. Lati@s, gallade, talonflame, metagross all do this. This isn't including the things that could tank and kill him even after he has set up as well. Keldeo's best set right now is the scarf set. Everything lost a lot o viability this meta due to other things just doing a better job.

Also, for Serperior he is fine where he is now. Although awesome to have contrary he has no move pool to take advantage of it. Grass dragon= body me Heatran please. It's a combo that just doesn't hit enough in the tier and that means you need to rely on hp which just isn't enough.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ok let me explain this so you understand what the guy meant.



Just because 2 things use calm mind does not make any one of them better than the other. Literally every pokemon you mentioned serves different roles as calm mind users. No they do not fill the calm mind role more ffectively because the roles are different for very obvious reasons. The pokemon you mentioned dont even have the same typing, let alone the same speed and stats, so how does that mean one outclasses the other as a calm minder lol? Sub Cm set doesnt even need coverage. Scald and Secret sword is great coverage as it is, because even if you can break through slowbro you have the chance to burn it which is a very big part of the sub CM set, and some people don't seem to understand that. The set as itself has a huge impact on the meta, with sub helping you to setup on way more things than any of the other pokemon you mentioned and with scald you have a chance to burn common counters like latias/os and slowbro, celebi, etc etc. which only helps keldeo more and that is why it's such a great set and why it differs from other cm users. You don't need coverage for slowbro, the latis or whatever else when you get off big chip damage so you can kill them later. Also, not many CM users have perfect coverage anyway and they usually dont even need it, yet they are all effective so idk where that argument came from.

I also don't get why you need a reason to use keldeo CM lol... I mean why do you use any set up sweeper? for their stats and typing mainly, and keldeo has both great stats and an amazing typing that no other CM user has so I really don't know how I can convince you more lmao. In case you didn't know because of it's typing and speed it sets up on a lot of common pokemon, is an offensive check to things like excadrill, bisharp and tyranitar and can set up on them too and even without coverage it can hinder its checks with scald burns. I mean unless you want me to lecture you on why the CM set it so great I don't think you need much more reason.



Did you even look at the OU list before making this statement? Of course keldeo can switch in to a lot of things including tyranitar, heatran, bisharp, mega gyarados, scizor all of which are very common offensive pokemon, not to mention it checks and counters a large sum of the defensive meta too like gliscor, chansey, ferrothorn, etc. Latias has way more common weaknesses than keldeo, that's for sure, so they aren't even comparable.



Please, name me a reason why this thing is low risk? its hardly set up bait for anything in the tier and even if the lati twins can check it, they still fear scald burns, and are very easy to check themselves because of pursuit trap. Furthermore, keldeo actually fills way more roles than the lati twins if you ask me. With specs, CM or even scarf it checks a lot more common things and can perform the wallbreaker and set up sweeper role way better.

Also to sum up your last point cus I"m too lazy to put it in quote... Obviously every pokemon has perks that others dont have. Kedleo just so happnes to have way better perks than the latis do in this meta and that is the grounds in which it deserves a rise, higher than them even.

Alright this is more understandable, atleast this post was educationally convincing with supporting evidence to back up the reasoning unlike the OP. However I still don't believe keldeo is worthy of S rank as I find it a bit underwhelming in practice with it's niche and roles. It's effective, it's a good pokemon, just nothing perfect like the others IMHO. I'll leave it at that. A/A+ is more fitting in my eyes tbh. I'll lean torward A+ because it can be a wincon at times.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Exploud: C- ----> C

I think Exploud should rise to C since it's almost a perfect counter to Mega Sableye. Exploud can easily switch into it and lol at it. It doesn't care about WoW or Shadow Ball while +1 Dark Pulse fails to 2HKO. It outspeeds and 2HKOes with Specs Boomburst (even at +1!). It also scares the crap out of Clefable and Mega Slowbro. Actually, this thing has very few counters overall. I really think this guy got better in ORAS.

Also, loltrevenant

I remember making a rank up for this guy, no one noticed... I totally agree.

That said, Trevenant is a joke, Serperior is kinda hilarious, and RoyalDispenser looks kinda pissed.

What i think?

Trev stays in Unranked

Exploud to C rank

Serperior stays at C+

Clefable stays at A+ (I just feel like this guy does so much with so little stats. Dont get me wrong, but i dont think it should go to such a godly rank with mons that are requested to be suspected for now.)

Keledeo should probably go to S or A+ (oh no im undecided)

Magnezone to B+ (Dude lost his swag. Sure, ferro is 5th in usage, but you dont really need this guy anymore from what ive seen. His specs set is good also but it gets demolished due to its shit speed stat. Also, it does nothing to Megagross...)

Excadrill to A-

 

[Halcyon.]

The highest I can see Serperior atm is B, with potentially being better or worse depending on meta shifts after the Gren ban (ie more Keldeo=better more Starmie=worse, so it really depends). It's deceptively strong, simply because Leaf Storm is such a strong move. Even with no boosts it hits very hard. And it's speed tier lends itself to sweeping very much. Like I've said before, it's a Pokemon that really relies on momentum being on the users side, but there are plenty of Pokemon where that is the case. Let me put it this way, it's at least as viable as Volcarona, which is B-, and it's imo more viable than Volc (although Volc is really cool).

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I am new but, honestly I wouldn't really say Mega Gardevoir got worse because of Megagross, clefable also has the same issue as gard vs megagross and people are agreeing that it should be S rank, yes clefable can predict the megagross switch in and fire blast/flamethrower, but so can mega gard with will o wisp which cripples megagross or HP ground (though prediction shouldn't determine a pokemon range), megavoir doesn't really need to predict looking at these calcs:

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Whereas

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 45-54 (14.9 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 54-63 (17.9 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

Honestly megavoir got better with the greninja ban as she has one less revenge killer to deal with.

Megavoir is also there because of her wallbreaking capabilities and how she destroys stall which is still the case, mega sabelye is said to be what made stall playable again and the fact that she can deal with the stall megas sab, bro, saur is enough to warrant her A+ rank imo.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I am new but, honestly I wouldn't really say Mega Gardevoir got worse because of Megagross, clefable also has the same issue as gard vs megagross and people are agreeing that it should be S rank, yes clefable can predict the megagross switch in and fire blast/flamethrower, but so can mega gard with will o wisp which cripples megagross or HP ground (though prediction shouldn't determine a pokemon range), megavoir doesn't really need to predict looking at these calcs:

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Whereas

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 45-54 (14.9 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 54-63 (17.9 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

Honestly megavoir got better with the greninja ban as she has one less revenge killer to deal with.

Megavoir is also there because of her wallbreaking capabilities and how she destroys stall which is still the case, mega sabelye is said to be what made stall playable again and the fact that she can deal with the stall megas sab, bro, saur is enough to warrant her A+ rank imo.

I promise you MVoir didnt get a happy greeting in ORAS.

First off, Clef does have trouble with Megagross but the problem is, is that Clefable isnt an offensive pokemon and Gardevoir is. The fact that MGarde just plain out loses to HO makes it deadweight and MMeta is arguably the best HO mega right now.

Also, MMeta doesnt want to switch into Clef just incase of a TWave or a Fire Blast.

Also to note that megagross is faster than Gardevoir and has access to priority, so either way its pretty fucked. All in all, making an argument that MGarde should move up because people want a pokemon (Clefable) to rise to S even though both are checked/countered by a single pokemon isnt the best argument. No harshness intended though, welcome to smogon and enjoy your stay.

Clefable and Garde are completely different mons.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

I promise you MVoir didnt get a happy greeting in ORAS.

First off, Clef does have trouble with Megagross but the problem is, is that Clefable isnt an offensive pokemon and Gardevoir is. The fact that MGarde just plain out loses to HO makes it deadweight and MMeta is arguably the best HO mega right now.

Also, MMeta doesnt want to switch into Clef just incase of a TWave or a Fire Blast.

Also to note that megagross is faster than Gardevoir and has access to priority, so either way its pretty fucked. All in all, making an argument that MGarde should move up because people want a pokemon (Clefable) to rise to S even though both are checked/countered by a single pokemon isnt the best argument. No harshness intended though, welcome to smogon and enjoy your stay.

Clefable and Garde are completely different mons.

never said she should move up, was against her moving down.

I can never see her in S rank, she also isn't deadweight vs HO because the only Ho Mon that really wants to take a hyper voice is megagross which doesn't even take it well, plus spreading burns to common HO Mon is a great use, especially since AV azumarill may be even more common.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

She definetly can take out a mon in HO, but her real effectiveness is in Stallbreaking. Scarftran, Talonflame, Megagross, Victini, Scizor, etc. all handle MGarde decently and are used in HO, but they definetely arent restricted to that. Sadly its speed tier and amazing spA makes it only SUPER useful in Stall. Still a great mon, just isnt that good vs. HO.

 

[Karxrida]

Trevenant is Trevenass; it's not that bulky, relies on a stupid gimmick to stay alive (which can't even bring it above 75%), is outclassed by a ton of other Grass-types defensively, and gives a ton of threatening shit free switches. It does not deserved to be ranked.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Agreeing with x MAD AXES x , as long as people are suggesting Clefable for S-rank then "it's checked by Mega Metagross" isn't the greatest argument for dropping Garde. Clefable CAN handle its checks and counters with the right set, which is a bug part of why it's being nominated for S, but it has to predict the switch in; Garde can do the same and run Wisp and screw with Metagross and Scizor switch ins. Plus, even without wisp, it does significantly more damage to these steels than Clefable does with its Fairy STAB, e.g. Metagross taking a Hyper Voice is then in range of getting KOed by Thundurus' Tbolt, which would otherwise be an unreliable answer to Metagross.

It COULD be dropped for reasons beyond getting checked by Metagross, but again so long as Clefable is being nominated for S I don't think it's a strong argument.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

To add to that, might as well Blacklist Trevanent at the time being before any troll decides its funny to do so.

Until this guy actually gets a niche thats actually good, there is no reason to talk about it and its shit otherwise.

 

[Stef0w]

Yeah, trev is awful sorry, it's not that bulky, it's speed stinks, you can donate 5 pokemon to support it, and it will still mess up 90% of the time. I would rather have samurott ranked for at least somewhat performing despite being brutally outclassed, than something that couldnt do it's job if it's life depended on it.

Still Boss design but w/e.

And start using starmie ffs, the thing deserves it's spot back.

I agree with the clefable for S nom, thing is crazy consistant in what it does IMO, and messes up most of it's counters if it has the right move.

Everything else seems fine to me tbh.

 

[Kurona]

To add to that, might as well Blacklist Trevanent at the time being before any troll decides its funny to do so.

Until this guy actually gets a niche thats actually good, there is no reason to talk about it and its shit otherwise.

TRC plz