ORAS Ubers Greninja is Viable. Ubers RMT

ed wins

ed wins

At first glance, Greninja might seem like an unfair ban due to his inability to function within the Ubers tier. However, upon closer inspection, you find that he's much more versatile than we first thought he would be.

Stats
HP 72
Atk 95
Def 67
SpA 103
SpD 71
Spe 122
BST 530
​
While his defenses and offenses both seem rather underwhelming, he has two things that highlight his usefulness rather well:his excellent speed tier and protean. With protean, he receives STAB from every move, giving him pseudo 143/155 offenses, which is comparable to both a Deoxys-A or a Mega-Rayquaza.

Now let's get on to the team.

greninja_by_meteoris-d6p5fx9.png

Ban me IDC (Greninja) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Rock Slide
- Gunk Shot
- Shadow Sneak/Night Slash

The EV spread is simple. Maximize attack and give it enough speed the outspeed Arceus forms. Low kick is a very spammable move in the tier, and it is chosen to hit Arceus-Rock/Dark/Normal, Dialga, Yveltal, or anything switching into him hard.

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 3 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 351-416 (92.1 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock/Dark/Normal: 351-416 (79 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 351-416 (87 - 103.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 239-282 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 73.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

The second move is purely dedicated for Ho-Oh. It can also OHKO an offensive Yveltal and 2HKO a physically defensive set if you fear the rocky helmet recoil OR if you prefer the resistances of the rock typing(oblivion wing).

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 567-671 (136.6 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 299-354 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 239-282 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The third move is reserved for the fairies running around the tier, mainly Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 416-491 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Arceus-Fairy: 312-369 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def [Mega] Diancie: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The move is reserved for psychics, which wall the rest of the set. Night Slash is a wonderful option for the sheer force, but shadow sneak also works as a revenge killing method for Deoxys and Mewtwo forms. Shadow Sneak also works wonderfully if you are brave enough to stay in on the Ekiller, as you will both outspeed and OHKO it with the immunity to his priority.

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 151-179 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 121-144 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 140-166 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 322-382 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 187-221 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


primal-groudon.jpg

The cancer of the ubers tier is the next member. What does Groudon do? Set rocks, providesblah blah blah. It sets rocks, attempts to cripple physical attackers, and provides thunder wave support for Greninja(Mewtwo/Deoxys forms if night slash is chosen), Scizor, and Ho-Oh.

Barring Arceus-Steel, Greninja is walled by other steel types, and Groudon can very easily take care of them. It also works as a GeoXern check. The EV spread is enough to leave a focus blast a cripple it, or live two moonblasts(calculations TBD).

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

The EV spreads are nothing too particular as of now as I have yet to run damage calculations. While a sassy nature prevents me from speed creeping other Groudons and Ho-Ohs, it allows me to freely spam lava plume or bait a kyogre switch for a thunder wave.

2413745-xerneas_official_art300dpi.png

Since I have Greninja to take care of Ho-Oh and Groudon the handle steel types, the best selection for the next member would be Xerneas.

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 204 Def / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Focus Blast/Hidden Power Ground
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast

Since we no longer have to invest in so much speed, I chose to optimize its physcal bulk to better handle its checks that Groudon and Greninja were unable to handle(take that, Ekiller).
Focus blast hits any steel types that I wasn't able to lure out, but that don't posses a direct threat to Xerneas. Hidden Power Ground is another option, hitting Groudon for the equivalent damage of Focus Blast while also hitting Aegislash.
Status inflicition has been popular lately, so I like carrying Aromatherapy on the Geomancy set incase something gives me me a surprise thunder wave.

Ho_Oh_v_2_by_Xous54.png

While Groudon can double as a Xerneas check, he is used more so to clean up after what greninja can't, so I've added a check for it on the team.

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Atk / 56 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

There's not much to say about the standard, cookie cutter set so I'll move along.

day30__badass__arceus_by_rock_bomber-d70aane.png


There are so many things weak to this Arceus form at the moment, so I have chosen it as a designated defogger.

Arceus - Rock (Arceus) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Again, another standard set. Very nicely checks Groudon, MegaMence, etc while countering things like M-diancie.

Mega_Scizor-1-.png

The team itself is weak to the Ekiller set, so I've chosen Scizor as a check, as I don't enjoy having too many Stealth Rock weak mons(Yveltal) while running Ho-Oh.

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Defog/Toxic
- Superpower
- Bullet Punch

Again, typical cookie cutter set. He doubles as secondary support for Ho-Oh and triples and yet another Xerneas check(because, let's face it, GeoXern is unstoppable).





The team itself was only created a few hours before the RMT was made, but I'm having success with it, so I decided to to rush the RMT before doing a peak or collecting enough replays.

As far as replays go, this would be the only non-low ladder replay showcasing Greninja being used as a pivot(as the opponent didn't know a standard set to base his predictions on)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-202420156


If interested, here is a low ladder match from a few days ago when the idea of the team first stemmed(but was then dropped).
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-202122375

If interest arises, I'll update this later with more replays and a peak.
 
Hello, as it is your team gets utterly destroyed by Ho-Oh, you have a grand total of zero switchins whilst it can freely come in on 4 members of your team once Groudon has been scouted, and it can also pivot through your Ho-Oh to an extent, AND you are also defogging for opposing Ho-Oh seeing as you need yours to break for you. I can see that you RMTed this team for Greninja but what you have to realise is that your calcs are irrelevant for the most part. With this in mind, I recommend you use Arceus-Rock over Arceus-Ground, with a moveset of Judgment / Defog / Will-O-Wisp / Recover and an EV spread of 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature, as this allows you to counter Ho-Oh and also gives you a good check to Extremekiller and Kangaskhan, both of which cause you problems. Arceus-Ground is an average Defogger at best and offers redundant synergy with Primal Groudon.

Greninja gets no switchin opportunities, gets blown away by any priority, and is a bad revenge killer as it is very easy to pivot through. You can show how Greninja can deal 80% to offensive Yveltal but the fact remains that Greninja will get blown away by Sucker Punch, and Extremekiller will just promptly OHKO Greninja with Extremespeed. Scenarios where Extremekiller comes in after Greninja has killed something with Shadow Sneak are very specific too. Lastly, Greninja cannot at all revenge kill Xerneas as Xerneas will outspeed after Geomancy, and Greninja cannot at all switch in on Xerneas, mandating that you either sacrifice something to get Greninja in safely when Xerneas is at +0, or sacrifice something to Thunder Wave it.

I recommend you look into using the following Pokemon over Greninja:

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Deoxys-Attack also gets OHKOed by pretty much every attack in Ubers but has a lot more firepower than Greninja and is not at all easy to pivot around. Psycho Boost OHKOes the likes of Kyogre, Palkia etc, Knock Off OHKOes Lati@s, Psycho Boost + Knock Off KOes Ho-Oh (either move will OHKO after Stealth Rock), and Extremespeed gives solid priority that actually does 35% to Xerneas, unlike Greninja's Shadow Sneak.

While this rate may seem rather scathing my honest opinion is that Deoxys-Attack will work better for you than Greninja as it is able to revenge kill the things you mentioned (Arceus-Dark, etc) whilst hitting a lot harder and not being easy to pivot through. If you are using a glass cannon that offers no defensive synergy, you may as well use the best one available to you, no?
 
PISTOLERO said:
Hello, as it is your team gets utterly destroyed by Ho-Oh, you have a grand total of zero switchins whilst it can freely come in on 4 members of your team once Groudon has been scouted, and it can also pivot through your Ho-Oh to an extent, AND you are also defogging for opposing Ho-Oh seeing as you need yours to break for you. I can see that you RMTed this team for Greninja but what you have to realise is that your calcs are irrelevant for the most part. With this in mind, I recommend you use Arceus-Rock over Arceus-Ground, with a moveset of Judgment / Defog / Will-O-Wisp / Recover and an EV spread of 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature, as this allows you to counter Ho-Oh and also gives you a good check to Extremekiller and Kangaskhan, both of which cause you problems. Arceus-Ground is an average Defogger at best and offers redundant synergy with Primal Groudon.

Greninja gets no switchin opportunities, gets blown away by any priority, and is a bad revenge killer as it is very easy to pivot through. You can show how Greninja can deal 80% to offensive Yveltal but the fact remains that Greninja will get blown away by Sucker Punch, and Extremekiller will just promptly OHKO Greninja with Extremespeed. Scenarios where Extremekiller comes in after Greninja has killed something with Shadow Sneak are very specific too. Lastly, Greninja cannot at all revenge kill Xerneas as Xerneas will outspeed after Geomancy, and Greninja cannot at all switch in on Xerneas, mandating that you either sacrifice something to get Greninja in safely when Xerneas is at +0, or sacrifice something to Thunder Wave it.

I recommend you look into using the following Pokemon over Greninja:

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Deoxys-Attack also gets OHKOed by pretty much every attack in Ubers but has a lot more firepower than Greninja and is not at all easy to pivot around. Psycho Boost OHKOes the likes of Kyogre, Palkia etc, Knock Off OHKOes Lati@s, Psycho Boost + Knock Off KOes Ho-Oh (either move will OHKO after Stealth Rock), and Extremespeed gives solid priority that actually does 35% to Xerneas, unlike Greninja's Shadow Sneak.

While this rate may seem rather scathing my honest opinion is that Deoxys-Attack will work better for you than Greninja as it is able to revenge kill the things you mentioned (Arceus-Dark, etc) whilst hitting a lot harder and not being easy to pivot through. If you are using a glass cannon that offers no defensive synergy, you may as well use the best one available to you, no?
Click to expand...
The point in the team is greninja lol, it's like replacing shedinja on a shedinja team
 
Yellow Skarmory said:
The point in the team is greninja lol, it's like replacing shedinja on a shedinja team
Click to expand...

But that's a flawed mindset to have. It doesn't matter if that was the founding concept of the team if that concept is flawed. If an idea can be made better why should it not be? The point that PISTOLERO had is that Life Orb Deoxys-A is a better attacker then Greninja is. That idea is sufficiently supported and it is correct, so why shouldn't he do it?
 
If you want to run a viable Greninja set in Ubers you can try this
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Shadow Sneak

This is meant to be a good hazard lead, with unique access to Toxic Spikes and the ability to spinblock its own hazards with Taunt and Shadow Sneak. Don't run Greninja as an attacker, as it is completely outclassed by Deoxys-A and Mewtwo.
 
offensive greninja is not good and deo-a set is like 11x better, using an inferior mon just for the sake of being different isnt a justifiable way of doing things. you could change gren to lustkias deo set or make gren spikes lead thus removing defog groundy and changing it to sd arceus ground
 
As the others have said, there's little to no point in running Greninja with Life Orb in Ubers. Deoxys-A is an excellent "revenge killer" (even though it's still not so viable in general) and so is Mewtwo-Mega-Y or Mewtwo @ Life Orb. I would use those any day over Greninja. Also, the toxic spikes suicide lead has lost some of its viability because of Lati@s defogging everything away and being immune to spikes.
 
PISTOLERO said:
Hello, as it is your team gets utterly destroyed by Ho-Oh, you have a grand total of zero switchins whilst it can freely come in on 4 members of your team once Groudon has been scouted, and it can also pivot through your Ho-Oh to an extent, AND you are also defogging for opposing Ho-Oh seeing as you need yours to break for you. I can see that you RMTed this team for Greninja but what you have to realise is that your calcs are irrelevant for the most part. With this in mind, I recommend you use Arceus-Rock over Arceus-Ground, with a moveset of Judgment / Defog / Will-O-Wisp / Recover and an EV spread of 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature, as this allows you to counter Ho-Oh and also gives you a good check to Extremekiller and Kangaskhan, both of which cause you problems. Arceus-Ground is an average Defogger at best and offers redundant synergy with Primal Groudon.

Greninja gets no switchin opportunities, gets blown away by any priority, and is a bad revenge killer as it is very easy to pivot through. You can show how Greninja can deal 80% to offensive Yveltal but the fact remains that Greninja will get blown away by Sucker Punch, and Extremekiller will just promptly OHKO Greninja with Extremespeed. Scenarios where Extremekiller comes in after Greninja has killed something with Shadow Sneak are very specific too. Lastly, Greninja cannot at all revenge kill Xerneas as Xerneas will outspeed after Geomancy, and Greninja cannot at all switch in on Xerneas, mandating that you either sacrifice something to get Greninja in safely when Xerneas is at +0, or sacrifice something to Thunder Wave it.

I recommend you look into using the following Pokemon over Greninja:

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Deoxys-Attack also gets OHKOed by pretty much every attack in Ubers but has a lot more firepower than Greninja and is not at all easy to pivot around. Psycho Boost OHKOes the likes of Kyogre, Palkia etc, Knock Off OHKOes Lati@s, Psycho Boost + Knock Off KOes Ho-Oh (either move will OHKO after Stealth Rock), and Extremespeed gives solid priority that actually does 35% to Xerneas, unlike Greninja's Shadow Sneak.

While this rate may seem rather scathing my honest opinion is that Deoxys-Attack will work better for you than Greninja as it is able to revenge kill the things you mentioned (Arceus-Dark, etc) whilst hitting a lot harder and not being easy to pivot through. If you are using a glass cannon that offers no defensive synergy, you may as well use the best one available to you, no?
Click to expand...

while i do appreciate the change in arceus form, as I have implemented, as you make a valid point with to ho-oh weakness, there is no reason to replace greninja with deoxys-a. a stated in the beginning of the RMT, it has been show that greninja is only COMPARABLE to deoxys-a, meaning that it does get outclassed.
I would say that the situation itself is a bit like the lo mewtwo/mmy debate that existed in xy. While the offenses of greninja aren't quite as remarkable as that of deoxys, its movepool is geared towards handling very specific threats, hence why you make a team around him and not just slap him on a team.

And finally, one of your points was that greninja gets zero switch in opportunities and annihilated by priority. Guess what? neither does deoxys and, and i dont think that the mention of priority is even valid in this tier, seeing as how the very few mons that carry it are usually ekiller/ygod/deoxys
 
ok lol i honestly cant tell if youre joking or not, greninja is not a good glass cannon (in ubers) and is outclassed by deo-a. for the "very specific threats" that u struggle aginst deoxys atttack accomplishes the exact same thing. grens entire movepool can equate to deos, low kick-> superpower both stop arc from setting up and hit steels, gunk shot -> p boost both ko xern but p boost doesnt have shit coverage and nukes everything, ssneak-> espeed extremspeed has higher prioity and also kos opposing deo-a, deo a also has knock off one of the most spammable moves in the game u can even swap it out for rock slide.
 
based n bad said:
ok lol i honestly cant tell if youre joking or not, greninja is not a good glass cannon (in ubers) and is outclassed by deo-a. for the "very specific threats" that u struggle aginst deoxys atttack accomplishes the exact same thing. grens entire movepool can equate to deos, low kick-> superpower both stop arc from setting up and hit steels, gunk shot -> p boost both ko xern but p boost doesnt have shit coverage and nukes everything, ssneak-> espeed extremspeed has higher prioity and also kos opposing deo-a, deo a also has knock off one of the most spammable moves in the game u can even swap it out for rock slide.
Click to expand...

The only niche over it has is access to TSpikes, Protean.
 
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