Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[cyberpunkbanana]

If Latias drops to A rank, I know I proposed it drop to B+ before but imo Mega Latias should never be on the same rank as it's non-mega counterpart. It's just not as good and versatile and really takes away from the amazing traits Latias can offer a team. If Latias is to go to A, Mega Latias should at least drop to A-.

While I agree M-Latias should drop, I disagree with your reasoning. Latias and M-Latias each fulfill completely different roles, one being a bulky-defog-healing wish thing and the other being a calm mind sweeper.

IMO M-Latias should drop because it is calm mind sweeper that is much more difficult to sweep with than M-Sableye and even clefable, and requires significant team support to help mitigate a sweep (you can't easily trap and kill dark types). It's a good sweeper, it's just difficult to use and a bit match-up reliant.

 

[Kurona]

While I agree M-Latias should drop, I disagree with your reasoning. Latias and M-Latias each fulfill completely different roles, one being a bulky-defog-healing wish thing and the other being a calm mind sweeper.

IMO M-Latias should drop because it is calm mind sweeper that is much more difficult to sweep with than M-Sableye and even clefable, and requires significant team support to help mitigate a sweep (you can't easily trap and kill dark types). It's a good sweeper, it's just difficult to use and a bit match-up reliant.

I probably should have worded it a bit better to be honest.
While just about every Mega has the limit of opportunity cost in that you can't use another Mega, Mega Latias also has the opportunity cost of not being able to use Vanilla Latias, which fits into an amazing amount of teams and provides a lot of support that can't be replicated by anything else. By comparison, Mega Latias fits on fewer teams and of course takes up your Mega Slot. While it does pull off it's job well, the massive amount of opportunity cost it has and the fewer teams it fits into makes it a worse Pokémon than it's vanilla form in my honest opinion.
I do however agree with your reasoning as for why Mega Latias should move down as well as that is undeniably true. I honestly want it to move to B+, but if that doesn't happen I feel it should still be at least one rank below it's vanilla form.

 

[kiloments]

OK. I'm on my computer now so I can organize my thoughts and such.

First off, I won't deny that MGyara is an amazing wall/stall breaker and good set up sweeper. But there are things that hold it back which warrant a drop in my opinion. You see, while ORAS graced MGyara with Crunch, it also hurt it with the introduction of new megas that can easily check/beat it. MGallade, MDiancie, MMetagross, MSceptile, MBeedrill, MLoppuny, MAltaria, and the increase of MVenu, MGardevoir, and MManectric all check or beat it in some way shape or form. That's not to mention the likes of other mons like Keldeo, Azumarill, Raikou, Landorus-T, and Talonflame who can still force it out or straight up beat it even after one DDance under its belt. Which leads me to point #1:
It's slow.
Obviously you won't be using MGyara as a revenge killer except for the absolute slowest of mons you know you can beat. But it's base 81 speed is quite slow for a DDancer, one of the main reasons Dnite no longer dances anymore. While its newfound bulk is quite (read: very) good (95/109/130), you have to mega evolve to take advantage of it. Water/Dark isn't bad defensively, but its quite easy to take advantage of with the plethora of mons with fast U-Turns/Volt Switches and powerful, fast fighting types everywhere (namely, Keldeo). Not to mention the Lati twins who can easily decimate MGyara with a Draco Meteor.
Point #2:
It has 4MSS
This is an argument thrown around pretty often in why certain mons are checkable, should be banned, should rise/drop, etc. But MGyara truly has a serious case of 4MSS. As a DDancer, it would love to run DDance, Taunt, and Dual STABs ideally. But to get past mons like Chesnaught, Breloom and MAltaria, it would love Ice Fang. But in order to ensure certain KOs at +1 as well as not being walled by Keldeo and Azumarill, EQ would be nice. But because priority and fast megas exist, Sub would be awesome to prevent being revenge killed. As you can see, and already know, MGyara can't run all these moves. It can only run 4 and pick a mon to be walled by.
Point #3:
Weak STABS
I wanted to phrase this as MGyara being weak, but the real issue is the relatively low base power of his STABS. With Waterfall and Crunch being only base 80, MGyara has to rely on getting to at least +2 in order to effectively sweep.
Point #4:
It requires extensive support
MGyara is weak to SR before Mega Evolving which puts pressure on how many times it can switch in due its lack of recovery. Not only that but it is often used as check to physical attackers with access to Intimidate which requires it to take additional damage further ruining its chances of potentially tanking a much needed hit to continue to sweep. MGyara doesnt like directly switching into mons like Heatran or Ferrothorn directly for risk of a burn or being seeded or even a stray paralysis. In other words, it's quite easy to force out and keep out to the point where its not even used at all. It's similar to MSharpedo in that its best kept behind until lategame but that's essentially playing with a forced handicap in order to ensure that it can even set up. (hence, the extensive support). Not to mention that its weakness hurt it far more than its resistances help it.

I guess my main point is this, it's far too easily pressured for it to effectively and consistently pull off a sweep or even try to set up. This is not to overlook its obvious benefits such as its matchups against stall and such, but that alone shouldn't be the only thing keeping it in A+. I think that MGyara is perfectly fine dropping to A.
TL;DR: It's slow, has 4mss, weak stabs, and requires quite a bit of support to be effective.

 

[heritage]

Alright, I'm going to take this apart piece by piece.

OK. I'm on my computer now so I can organize my thoughts and such.

First off, I won't deny that MGyara is an amazing wall/stall breaker and good set up sweeper. But there are things that hold it back which warrant a drop in my opinion. You see, while ORAS graced MGyara with Crunch, it also hurt it with the introduction of new megas that can easily check/beat it. MGallade, MDiancie, MMetagross, MSceptile, MBeedrill, MLoppuny, MAltaria, and the increase of MVenu, MGardevoir, and MManectric all check or beat it in some way shape or form. That's not to mention the likes of other mons like Keldeo, Azumarill, Raikou, Landorus-T, and Talonflame who can still force it out or straight up beat it even after one DDance under its belt.

The only Megas that flat out beat mega Gyarados that you mentioned are M-Altaria (who deserves S) and maybe M-Manectric and M-Beedrill. All the rest are taken out after a single Dragon Dance. Talonflame doesn't OHKO unless it's Banded and if Stealth Rocks are up. Lando-T certainly doesn't beat it, since 1vs1, it can't OHKO with anything.
Tl;dr: Dragon Dance.

Which leads me to point #1:
It's slow.
Obviously you won't be using MGyara as a revenge killer except for the absolute slowest of mons you know you can beat. But it's base 81 speed is quite slow for a DDancer, one of the main reasons Dnite no longer dances anymore. While its newfound bulk is quite (read: very) good (95/109/130), you have to mega evolve to take advantage of it. Water/Dark isn't bad defensively, but its quite easy to take advantage of with the plethora of mons with fast U-Turns/Volt Switches and powerful, fast fighting types everywhere (namely, Keldeo). Not to mention the Lati twins who can easily decimate MGyara with a Draco Meteor.

The Lati twins certainly DO NOT destroy with Draco Meteor. There's a thing called Crunch that OHKOs them after a Dragon Dance.
It's not that slow, either. I mean, 81 base Speed is pretty bad, but that isn't its biggest problem. It has that amazing bulk to back up the problems with its Speed. That's the only valid point in this entire post is the Speed issue, which isn't enough to bring it down.

Point #2:
It has 4MSS
This is an argument thrown around pretty often in why certain mons are checkable, should be banned, should rise/drop, etc. But MGyara truly has a serious case of 4MSS. As a DDancer, it would love to run DDance, Taunt, and Dual STABs ideally. But to get past mons like Chesnaught, Breloom and MAltaria, it would love Ice Fang. But in order to ensure certain KOs at +1 as well as not being walled by Keldeo and Azumarill, EQ would be nice. But because priority and fast megas exist, Sub would be awesome to prevent being revenge killed. As you can see, and already know, MGyara can't run all these moves. It can only run 4 and pick a mon to be walled by.

This isn't true in the slightest. Water/Dark has amazing coverage, and there are very few things that resist both. Gyarados is meant to be a late game sweeper. And ideally, you'd want to have these Pokemon KOed before you try to sweep with Gyarados. This is why Talonflame is such a good partner. It deals with all three of the Pokemon that Gyarados needs Ice Fang for. Idk about Azu and Keldeo, but again, Gyarados is meant to be a late game sweeper, and it's the best at what it does. These Pokemon are supposed to be eliminated before attempting a sweep.

Point #3:
Weak STABS
I wanted to phrase this as MGyara being weak, but the real issue is the relatively low base power of his STABS. With Waterfall and Crunch being only base 80, MGyara has to rely on getting to at least +2 in order to effectively sweep.

LOL are you saying that the added chance of Waterfall flinching and the chance that Crunch can drop defense are weak? Pair that with that sexy attack stat and a DD and it becomes a very hard hitter.

Point #4:
It requires extensive support
MGyara is weak to SR before Mega Evolving which puts pressure on how many times it can switch in due its lack of recovery. Not only that but it is often used as check to physical attackers with access to Intimidate which requires it to take additional damage further ruining its chances of potentially tanking a much needed hit to continue to sweep. MGyara doesnt like directly switching into mons like Heatran or Ferrothorn directly for risk of a burn or being seeded or even a stray paralysis. In other words, it's quite easy to force out and keep out to the point where its not even used at all. It's similar to MSharpedo in that its best kept behind until lategame but that's essentially playing with a forced handicap in order to ensure that it can even set up. (hence, the extensive support). Not to mention that its weakness hurt it far more than its resistances help it.

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at with this post. Nobody would want to switch their Gyarados into a Ferrothorn. Only idiots would do that, so whatever. And Gyarados, even though it has Intimidate, isn't used to check physical attackers. It's meant to switch in to something that it has the advantage over and use Intimidate.

I guess my main point is this, it's far too easily pressured for it to effectively and consistently pull off a sweep or even try to set up. This is not to overlook its obvious benefits such as its matchups against stall and such, but that alone shouldn't be the only thing keeping it in A+. I think that MGyara is perfectly fine dropping to A.
TL;DR: It's slow, has 4mss, weak stabs, and requires quite a bit of support to be effective.

Tl;dr: actually use Gyarados before you make any assumptions about it.

 

[Froggyboy]

It's slow.
Obviously you won't be using MGyara as a revenge killer except for the absolute slowest of mons you know you can beat. But it's base 81 speed is quite slow for a DDancer, one of the main reasons Dnite no longer dances anymore. While its newfound bulk is quite (read: very) good (95/109/130), you have to mega evolve to take advantage of it. Water/Dark isn't bad defensively, but its quite easy to take advantage of with the plethora of mons with fast U-Turns/Volt Switches and powerful, fast fighting types everywhere (namely, Keldeo). Not to mention the Lati twins who can easily decimate MGyara with a Draco Meteor.

Gyarados easily makes up for speed with great power and great typing(And intimidate in base form) before and after mega evolving. It is pretty bulky, so the VoltTurns won't OHKO it and it can easily DD on those. And M-Gyarados is a pretty good Lati@s check for a reason..
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Wouldn't call that easily decimate.

Point #2:
It has 4MSS
This is an argument thrown around pretty often in why certain mons are checkable, should be banned, should rise/drop, etc. But MGyara truly has a serious case of 4MSS. As a DDancer, it would love to run DDance, Taunt, and Dual STABs ideally. But to get past mons like Chesnaught, Breloom and MAltaria, it would love Ice Fang. But in order to ensure certain KOs at +1 as well as not being walled by Keldeo and Azumarill, EQ would be nice. But because priority and fast megas exist, Sub would be awesome to prevent being revenge killed. As you can see, and already know, MGyara can't run all these moves. It can only run 4 and pick a mon to be walled by.

M-Gyarados easily makes up for this with raw power with only its STABs, unblockable taunts(mental herb lol), and superb bulk. And you seem to grossly understimate Gyarados' bulk, no form of priority can take it out in one hit. Scizor's Bullet Punch does nothing, so does Azumarill's Aqua Jet(though you should only be switching in when in base form), Talonflame can't OHKO, M-Pinsir can't OHKO with Quick Attack, even at +2, M-Lopunny's Fake Out = 0, need I go on? And it doesn't really need Sub because at +1, I believe you outspeed M-Beedrill if Jolly. Really, DD+3 Attacks is amazing, and Sub+Taunt+DD is also decent. I am sure a ton of Pokemon would like to run 6-8 moves, even S Rank Pokemon, but they define the meta, so I doubt they'll be dropping for that.

Point #3:
Weak STABS
I wanted to phrase this as MGyara being weak, but the real issue is the relatively low base power of his STABS. With Waterfall and Crunch being only base 80, MGyara has to rely on getting to at least +2 in order to effectively sweep.

Getting to +2 with Gyarados isn't too hard, thanks to Intimdate base form and excellent bulk and Sub. And off of Gyarado's horrifying 155 Atk stat, those base 80 power moves still hit super hard even unboosted.

Point #4:
It requires extensive support
MGyara is weak to SR before Mega Evolving which puts pressure on how many times it can switch in due its lack of recovery. Not only that but it is often used as check to physical attackers with access to Intimidate which requires it to take additional damage further ruining its chances of potentially tanking a much needed hit to continue to sweep. MGyara doesnt like directly switching into mons like Heatran or Ferrothorn directly for risk of a burn or being seeded or even a stray paralysis. In other words, it's quite easy to force out and keep out to the point where its not even used at all. It's similar to MSharpedo in that its best kept behind until lategame but that's essentially playing with a forced handicap in order to ensure that it can even set up. (hence, the extensive support). Not to mention that its weakness hurt it far more than its resistances help it.

Almost every teams needs hazard control, so that point is invalid. And Gyarados forces so many switches, so it won't being taking too much damage. Heatran often sets up rocks or goes for Lava Plume, so in 70% cases, Gyarados gets a free switch, and a water type that can't switch into Ferrothorn? How is that anything new? No one is using Mega Gyarados as a revenge killer, it sweeps late game or sets up early for a sweep. Again, you must be either using Gyarados wrong or not using it at all. Intimidate base form, excellent bulk before and after mega evolving, and how does its typing hinder to more? It checks the Lati@s, Megagross, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Zard-X THANKS to its typing. I wouldn't call that bad.



So, M-Gyarados should stay A+, for its great bulk, nice typing, and excellent power.
Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[kiloments]

I see your points, so I am going to return the favor in breaking down your points.

The Lati twins certainly DO NOT destroy with Draco Meteor. There's a thing called Crunch that OHKOs them after a Dragon Dance.
It's not that slow, either. I mean, 81 base Speed is pretty bad, but that isn't its biggest problem. It has that amazing bulk to back up the problems with its Speed. That's the only valid point in this entire post is the Speed issue, which isn't enough to bring it down.

After rocks and a bit of prior damage Gyarados goes down. It's not that hard to get a bit of chip damage off on it.

This isn't true in the slightest. Water/Dark has amazing coverage, and there are very few things that resist both. Gyarados is meant to be a late game sweeper. And ideally, you'd want to have these Pokemon KOed before you try to sweep with Gyarados. This is why Talonflame is such a good partner. It deals with all three of the Pokemon that Gyarados needs Ice Fang for. Idk about Azu and Keldeo, but again, Gyarados is meant to be a late game sweeper, and it's the best at what it does. These Pokemon are supposed to be eliminated before attempting a sweep.

Of course Talonflame pairs well and revenges alot or kills these mons, thats what it does. However you fail to address other fast mons like Mega Manectric who can come in and intimidate it a not get OHKO'd from full health or even after rocks. Lando-T can threaten it with a Superpower. Talon is forced out by these pokemon and so is MGyara. These mons are often kept lategame in many situations as wincons and will be easily preserved. Also:
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 235-277 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Not the best of situations considering MGyara is OHKO'd right back

LOL are you saying that the added chance of Waterfall flinching and the chance that Crunch can drop defense are weak? Pair that with that sexy attack stat and a DD and it becomes a very hard hitter.

Hax has nothing to do with their initial power. You can't rely on them as it is RNG and is not consistent. I never said Gyarados is weak, its STABS are. Also, Gyarados is forced to run Jolly over Adamant, therefore a loss of power.

Tl;dr: actually use Gyarados before you make any assumptions about it.

I have 2 replays here: One where I 6-0 with Mega Gyarados, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202784150
And another one where Gyarados was under enough pressure that I couldn't Mega Evolve at all: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202787193
I have used Mega Gyarados plenty of times in XY, and I am fully aware of its abilities. I'm saying the transition to ORAS is what may have finally warranted a drop from A+ to A. I'm not saying its a bad mon, but it's no longer A+ worthy imo.
Edit: GDI! Ninja'd

 

[MrAldo]

I have to agree with Mega Latias to B+ as much. Pretty good win con for balanced and semi stall teams but overall, it needs a ton of support in order to pull off a sweep if anything and that by itself doesnt make Mega Latias an A rank mon. First, the mono attacking set with sub and the rest of the attacks is hard blocked by pretty much any dark type in existence, and in takes a lot of time to get going. The constant presence of steel types like mega metagross and mega scizor and dark types like bisharp makes trying to find an opportunity of setting up pretty difficult, demanding at least 2 partners that could take care of those. It cant also set up in the same of some fairies like specs sylveon and m-altaria since stored power does pitiful damage when you arent at +3.

Also, she really wants a 5th move slot in order to be more efficient (4MSS). Like she wants substitute to avoid status and roost for recovery but then if you wanna go dual STAB to not get walled by dark types you have to give up one of this options. Needs plenty of support and that doesnt go well for a A rank mon.

B+ should be fine for her.

 

[heritage]

I have 2 replays here: One where I 6-0 with Mega Gyarados, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202784150
And another one where Gyarados was under enough pressure that I couldn't Mega Evolve at all: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202787193

I saw at least 5 opportunities in that battle where you could have Mega Evolved. One right in the very beginning against that Landorus! Superpower wouldn't even OHKO after Intimidate, not to mention it's extremely rare. Even then, you could have stayed non-mega and Dragon Danced, then proceeded to Mega Evolve on the opponent's switch.
All those replays did for me was showed me a bit more evidence that you haven't had a lot of experience with M-Gyarados.
I'm on my phone now so I can't make this nice and pretty, but you used Stealth Rocks against my argument that it beats Latios, but you didn't take into effect Stealth Rocks damage against Gallade and Lopunny when you did calcs on your own?

 

[Froggyboy]

I see your points, so I am going to return the favor in breaking down your points.

After rocks and a bit of prior damage Gyarados goes down. It's not that hard to get a bit of chip damage off on it.

Still, Gyarados takes a hit from full and OHKOs back, the fact that Lati@s needs SR and prior damage in order to OHKO just proves Gyarados' bulk even more.

Of course Talonflame pairs well and revenges alot or kills these mons, thats what it does. However you fail to address other fast mons like Mega Manectric who can come in and intimidate it a not get OHKO'd from full health or even after rocks. Lando-T can threaten it with a Superpower. Talon is forced out by these pokemon and so is MGyara. These mons are often kept lategame in many situations as wincons and will be easily preserved. Also:
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 235-277 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Not the best of situations considering MGyara is OHKO'd right back

Mega Manectric can't OHKO back, so.. Plus after rocks, Gyarados has a chance to OHKO, while after rocks Manectric doesn't. And using your logic, Gallade and Lopunny get killed after rocks.

Hax has nothing to do with their initial power. You can't rely on them as it is RNG and is not consistent. I never said Gyarados is weak, its STABS are. Also, Gyarados is forced to run Jolly over Adamant, therefore a loss of power.

30% chance isn't really hax, ever use Scald? Plus, even with Jolly, it still tramples teams.

I have 2 replays here: One where I 6-0 with Mega Gyarados, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202784150
And another one where Gyarados was under enough pressure that I couldn't Mega Evolve at all: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202787193
I have used Mega Gyarados plenty of times in XY, and I am fully aware of its abilities. I'm saying the transition to ORAS is what may have finally warranted a drop from A+ to A. I'm not saying its a bad mon, but it's no longer A+ worthy imo.
Edit: GDI! Ninja'd

In your 6-0 replay, your opponent had Milotic, so that replay is immediately irrelevant imo.
And Recreant addressed your other replay.

 

[kiloments]

I saw at least 5 opportunities in that battle where you could have Mega Evolved. One right in the very beginning against that Landorus! Superpower wouldn't even OHKO after Intimidate, not to mention it's extremely rare. Even then, you could have stayed non-mega and Dragon Danced, then proceeded to Mega Evolve on the opponent's switch.
All those replays did for me was showed me a bit more evidence that you haven't had a lot of experience with M-Gyarados.
I'm on my phone now so I can't make this nice and pretty, but you used Stealth Rocks against my argument that it beats Latios, but you didn't take into effect Stealth Rocks damage against Gallade and Lopunny when you did calcs on your own?

TBH I didn't want to force any Stone Edge/U-Turn 50/50s which is why I switched out. As for the calcs, I see your point and I admit my fallacy there. Although, its far more likely for Gyarados to encounter rocks than it is for Lopunny or Gallade to their sheer offensive presence and ability to force out common SR setters.

Still, Gyarados takes a hit from full and OHKOs back, the fact that Lati@s needs SR and prior damage in order to OHKO just proves Gyarados' bulk even more.

I never said Gyarados wasnt bulky, I admitted so myself.

Mega Manectric can't OHKO back, so.. Plus after rocks, Gyarados has a chance to OHKO, while after rocks Manectric doesn't. And using your logic, Gallade and Lopunny get killed after rocks.

See my response to Recreant regarding the calcs. Also to apply my own calc fallacy to your argument, Manectric OHKOs after rocks. It goes both ways.

30% chance isn't really hax, ever use Scald? Plus, even with Jolly, it still tramples teams.

20%, minor nitpick. Still, it's relying on something that may or may not happen. Hence, hax.

In your 6-0 replay, your opponent had Milotic, so that replay is immediately irrelevant imo.
And Recreant addressed your other replay.

Lol. Milotic is blacklisted for a reason I suppose. I have no response to this lmao.

 

[Froggyboy]

See my response to Recreant regarding the calcs. Also to apply my own calc fallacy to your argument, Manectric OHKOs after rocks. It goes both ways.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 242-288 (73.1 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Nice OHKO.

 

[kiloments]

252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nice OHKO. You fail to make a point with that.

 

[Froggyboy]

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Nice 2HKO.

 

[kiloments]

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Nice 2HKO.

If gyarados is running ddance, taunt, waterfall, and crunch, where is eq coming from. Showing me a calc of an obvious supereffective eq changes nothing.

 

[Kurona]

Oh my lord it astounds me that this annoying back and forth of one-liners cluttering up the thread could easily have been resolved by just saying
"Gyarados survives the Thunderbolt, Dragon Dances and Outspeeds and OHKOes with Waterfall/Crunch the next turn"
Was that so hard

 

[AM]

Keep the one liners to a minimum. Get all your thoughts out in one comment and same goes with responses. There's no need to clutter two pages of arguments that don't go anywhere or prove anything significant.

 

[kiloments]

Oh my lord it astounds me that this annoying back and forth of one-liners cluttering up the thread could easily have been resolved by just saying
"Gyarados survives the Thunderbolt, Dragon Dances and Outspeeds and OHKOes with Waterfall/Crunch the next turn"
Was that so hard

My bad. I understand Gyarados's merits, including its bulk. If I'm inexperienced with MGyara, I'll admit it. I was using it as a mon that could plow through teams through sheer power alone. Obviously that's not the way to use it and I'll proceed with that knowledge in patching up the weaknesses I feel the team has. Regardless, it still has faults that I'm not sure justify it's stay in A+. Anyone care to elaborate on it's pros?

 

[astroboy]

Anyone care to elaborate on it's pros?

have....have you been reading any of this?
im not gonna go into too much detail bc recreant covered most of this earlier but... what

gyara is an amazing mon whos one of the few xy megas who didnt become less relevant in the transition to oras (megaman,megacross, megacham to name a few), and actually got better. it has checks. so does every mon? and it hardly had 4mss as it can best a lot of the meta. the only point i guess you could make is keldeos return, or that most gyaras run jolly now, sacrificing some power i really dont see what youre trying to get at, and you seem to be grasping at straws to defend your point of view at this point. keep it in a+

 

[kiloments]

have....have you been reading any of this?
im not gonna go into too much detail bc recreant covered most of this earlier but... what

gyara is an amazing mon whos one of the few xy megas who didnt become less relevant in the transition to oras (megaman,megacross, megacham to name a few), and actually got better. it has checks. so does every mon? and it hardly had 4mss as it can best a lot of the meta. the only point i guess you could make is keldeos return, or that most gyaras run jolly now, sacrificing some power i really dont see what youre trying to get at, and you seem to be grasping at straws to defend your point of view at this point. keep it in a+

I'm not grasping at straws. I just admitted that I was wrong. What I meant was, what other arguments are there for keeping it in A+. Don't look for an argument when there is none. I've admitted my mistakes.

Edit: you know what? Fuck it. Keep Gyara in A+. I'm obviously wrong and admitting it an moving on serves no purpose other than to make things worse. Maybe it's my inexperience with Gyara that made me make this nomination but I didn't think people would react so negatively. Let's move on and let bygones be bygones.

 

[Roxachronic]

Regarding M-Gyara I want to ask something that just crossed my mind:

Why the hell this mon is at A+?

This thing does so well to a lot of teams, with one turn it demolishes everything, usually the best answer to a sweeper is none other than Unaware Clefable...which M-Gyara completely obliterates, it breaks Stall and also does well against Offense(I mean seriously come in something like M-Metagross, pull off a DD and sometimes it is enough to sweep the entire team.) this is better since the usual check to physical threats is Scarf Jolly Lando-T, which dies to M-Gyarados, the fact that the enemy sometimes need to guess if you are M-evolving that turn helps to raise M-Gyara's survability in one turn, now add his great sp-def and his Intimidate pre-evo.

If anything this mon should go to S rank.

I think Clefable,M-Altaria,M-Gyara should move to S, the first one for reasons already stated in like 6 pages or so, M-Altaria has similar traits as Clefable, since it is so versatile, (heck even a mono attacking set with Heal Bell is also indirectly supporting her team), and the 3rd one because of his relatively few consistent checks and even if he lacks the versatility of the other 2 it can get through a lot of teams with just his DD set.

So...

M-Gyarados----> S rank
Clefable -------> S rank
M-Altaria ------> S rank
Raikou--------->A- Rank
M-Manectric--->A- Rank
M-Sceptile----->B+ Rank
Serperior------>B Rank


Landorus-T to---->Always use this mon, don't care about your playstyle Rank.

 

[Gloating]

Mega Gyarados is definitely one of those Pokemon I think is a good candidate for S rank. When played right, it's just so devastating. It threatens so many teams it's not even funny. The Dark type is a great offensive typing and when you combine it Water STAB it just hits a lot of what is common in OU super effectively. The Lati twins, Landorus-T, Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Metagross and more I'm forgetting. Between Water and Dark the only Pokemon that can really come in on those is Keldeo who still takes a big chunk of health, Azumarill, Ferrothorn and opposing Mega Gyarados. Crunch was a god send so you can get defense drops on stuff like Chansey and Skarmory or even flinch them with Waterfall. Mega Gyarados is just pretty dangerous. It can also set up on Mega Sableye with Substitute or things like Slowbro and weakened Ferrothorn trying to Leech Seed. It also has just the right speed to out speed the fast Megas like Beedrill, Manectric and Mega Lopunny after a DD if it's running Jolly which you should. Honestly the only reason I don't outright get massacred by Gyarados is because people usually don't play it right. They try to DD at any chance they get when it really doesn't have to at times.
It also has other sets like bulky DD and DD rest/Taunt which makes for a great stall breaker. Not all is perfect for it, it still has flaws but when played right it just tears shit apart, I find it even broken at times O.o

 

[LMay]

I don't think M-Altaria and M-Gyara are really similar.
First , Altaria (if he is DD , because Gyara has only ONE set who can be played , not Altaria) is more powerful than Gyara (thx Pixilate)

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 136-162 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 177-208 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 14% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Then , i don't think Gyara has "great typing" , this typing is really shit , weak to Volt switch/U-turn/fighting/fairy/grass and when Altaria has the one of the greatest typing in the game (resists U-Turn , Volt switch , Knock off , Scald , Sucker punch , Aqua jet , Mach punch , immunity to dragon , water-fighting) and can have more opportunity to set up when Gyara is TOTALLY walled by Azumarill (EQ is not a OHKO at +2) , Keldeo , Chesnaught , Breloom , Hydreigon, Whimsicott , Altaria , and Lando-T scarf can revenge kill him with the Superpower.
The only advantage I see against Altaria as a DDancer is the Intimidate before M-evolving , but it's not really that good if your opponent can send a counter/check which are every time the same (M-Altaria does not have the same counters if he is Special/Mixed/DD , that is show the versatility compare to Gyara when Gyara has EVERY TIME the same counters)

Not to mention dat M-Alt beats Gyara in 1v1 too even with Intimidate
-1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 171-202 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and the bulky mono attacker shit on M-Gyara too.
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 288-342 (87 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And if it's a special Alt , Gyara get destroy :
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 186-220 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 300-354 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

So , i think Altaria is a better DDancer and deserve a S Rank , I don't really refuse M-Gyara in S too but i wanted to show Altaria's versatily against that poor and predictacle Gyara.

 

[MrAldo]

Calling mega gyarados "poor" is really REALLY underselling it but ok, to each its own. Predictable, sure, because you know it will be ddance but poor... nah. That post was nice and dandy and everything but way too based for one side imo.

Will comment more in detail about the viability of this mons later on but for the bunch of S ranks noms I can see Mega Altaria being the best candidate right now cause of how versatile it can be, having tools to get past its checks in some scenarios, pretty amazing bulk and a fantastic typing, probably the second best dual typing in the game. Fluff has never been this dangerous. Will leave this for later on.

 

[LMay]

I said "poor" because of the versatility man , i know M-Gyara is a dangerous mon but really predictable compared to Altaria , that's why i said "poor" sorry if my words were confuse.

 

[pika pal]

I said "poor" because of the versatility man , i know M-Gyara is a dangerous mon but really predictable compared to Altaria , that's why i said "poor" sorry if my words were confuse.

Understandable slip of the tongue.

I'd like to offer a counter argument as far as the versatility matter. Mega Altaria obviously has a lot of viable sets, compared to Gyarados having maybe 3 or so between both forms. However, while Altaria has versatility, I find Gyarados excels more in consistency, in a sense.

Altaria's advantage is keeping the opponent on their toes trying to guess its set, but if the opponent deduces it, be it in battle or predicting from teambuild, Altaria is overall very manageable to check. Mega Gyarados may only have one notable set, but I find that set always manages to put in work in what it's doing: a Late game Sweeper that can Stallbreak. It obviously has checks and counters, but wearing them out is a relatively manageable job considering they tend to lack recovery (such as Azumarill), are fairly manageable with a core (Talonflame can handle a majority of Gyarados' counters, and also does well Revenge-killing or cleaning up if Gyarados gets stopped short), or may have to manage a lot on the opposing team (Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur).

With Altaria, I've found that once the opponent has an idea of its set, it becomes much more of a prediction match up to outplay its counters and continue putting in work. With Gyarados, even if the opponent knows what it's running, I find it's still able enough to put in work, whether its wearing out other counters, forcing the opponent to keep on their toes with it, or handling a bit differently in base form w/ Intimidate.

I don't quite see either of these two making S, though they are very high A+.
Mega Lopunny is an example of a Pokemon I find both consistent and versatile. With 2 free moveslots, Lopunny's moveset is extremely flexible, so the opponent is really left guessing what it's doing. That said, even when they figure out what they are, it doesn't stop Lopunny from making use of them. Even if a Stall team knows it's Sub-PuP, the set can still tear through the team with relatively little NECESSARY support. Even if the opponent figures out Lopunny has Healing Wish or Ice Punch, its still more than able to use it to patch up a sweeper or threaten Lando-T, respectively, regardless of the opponent's knowledge: stopping Lando-T from coming in on it easily means Ice Punch still serves its purpose.