-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
- Status
What I meant to get at more with regards to the partners thing, is that Gyarados usually needs only one partner's help to clean his counters, and having to run Talonflame isn't a huge burden on an offensive team. Magnezone is very useful, but he's being run specifically for something by nature of his niche. The kind of support Gyarados tends to need is stuff that's pretty common to offensive teams already, and with his one consistent set, that broad choice is usually the most Gyarados in particular requires. Altaria tends to call for different support based on its set, which again can play into predicting its set.
Obviously the Pokemon's own effectiveness is the biggest part of its ranking, but how easy/manageable it is to fit into teams or cores can be a factor in viability. For example, Mega Gallade is very effective when played to his fullest, but the team usually needs to be built to support him to get that. Other mons, like Lopunny (to bring her in again), are more splashable because rather than tailor the team to her, you tailor her to the team.
What I'm ultimately intending to get at is that Gyarados's support of "defeat bulky Grass Types" is easier to work in or more likely to naturally be in a team already, while with Altaria, Magnezone is the default (though certainly not the only) support for something walled by Steel Types, and while effective, Magnezone can inhibit team building somewhat because of typing and Scarf reliance. In both cases, the team still is probably built around the Mega, but Gyarados just strikes me as allowing a bit more variety/fitting onto more teams than Altaria.
Also, I think you're underselling something for Gyarados when you note the power difference. Altaria's Pixilate Return is stronger than Gyarados' Crunch, but only because of the Pixilate boost. What this means is that any of Altaria's coverage moves are going to hit for significantly less than Gyarados would. This becomes a problem for Altaria's DD set trying to hit Steel types, especially if their secondary typing mitigates the EQ weakness
(Calcs done with the standard EVs spreads for both, Altaria assumed to have Return and EQ, Gyarados Waterfall and Crunch)
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 314-372 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 57-68 (17 - 20.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 127-151 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-121 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Altaria's Return hits noticeably harder, but Altaria absolutely needs those Steels weakened/eliminated because it lacks power behind its coverage options. Gyarados appreciates those checks gone, but is capable of muscling past them on its own with some prior damage instead, which I find less to ask of as far as support.
My bottom line is, while both very effective Pokemon in their own right, and deserving of A+, I don't think Mega Altaria any closer to S than Mega Gyarados.
Altaria can run Fire blast if Skarm/Ferro/Zor are a problem for the team or if you don't have Zone/Tflame/Tran (they are every time OHKO or 2HKO even if Alt is Adamant, check my post page 17 for some calcs) , not Gyara who can just try to get the +4 (lol) because Altaria is waaay more versatile than Gyara again.
Last edited:
Would you care to explain yourself further? Both megas are very effective in fulfilling their purpose, and in the case of Mega Altaria, extremely diverse.
Lol I can't really explain why, just use it. People here are talking a lot but don't play that much apparently. I used Mega Altaria a bit and it's pretty underwhelming. I faced it a lot and it never gave me troubles, no matter my team.
EDIT: oh and, when I talked about Char Y in A, I wanted to say it should move up.
EDIT: oh and, when I talked about Char Y in A, I wanted to say it should move up.
Time to join in on the fun.
Mega Gyarados (A+) -> S | I agree on this notion. Mega Gyarados is just phenomenal right now: it's got all the right tools to be a highly effective force in the metagame. Between its great setup bulk (95/109/130, not even counting pre-Mega Intimidate), brutal 155 Attack, respectable 81 Speed (seriously, this thing isn't 'slow'), ability to create setup opportunities thanks to Substitute and Taunt, as well as a fantastic Ability in Mold Breaker, there's little that can really stop this monstrous serpent from destroying teams late-game. Its STABs might not be the strongest, but Waterfall has the flinch and Crunch the Defense drop, making up for their middling BP. As pointed out before, there's several ways to use Mega Gyarados, such as Taunt/DD, Sub/DD, DD/3 attacks and Sub/Taunt/DD mono attacking, giving it a degree of unpredictability.
It's got a few flaws, namely its 5 weaknesses, average Speed for a DDer and facing some slight opportunity cost for a Mega, but for what this thing does, namely shit all over Stall teams with Sub, Taunt or both, beat almost all of the new Megas thanks to its STABs and brutal power and doing all of this with such great ease, I can honestly see the only Gen I Dark-type rising up. Mega Gyarados for S.
Raikou (B) -> B+/A- | I'm torn on where Raikou should go, but I will say that it should be one subrank below Mega Manectric. Anyway, Raikou's definitely better in the current meta, mainly due to the rise of things that its AV set checks. It's got good power and Speed for an AV Pokémon, a good STAB in Thunderbolt and good coverage in HP Ice, Extrasensory and Shadow Ball, so it's got everything it needs to check what it needs to check. Of course, there's the CM sets that put in their work (both SubCM and CM/3 attacks) and the Specs set can be nasty to face since Raikou's a goddamn fast Specs user.
Why am I more inclined to say B+ over A-? This might just be me, but Raikou is an extremely item-reliant Pokémon when running AV or Specs. With Knock Off still being a common move, Raikou is highly vulnerable to losing the item it needs. Calm Mind versions suffer less from this, but the other two sets (especially AV) definitely do. Additionally, it has no Fire-type coverage, unlike Mega Manectric, which means Pokémon like Ferrothorn still badly wall it. Mega Scizor is a 50/50 case, though.
I'd like to bring up once more that Raikou and Mega Manectric have their own roles and each check different Pokémon. Use each to their own strengths, don't play one like the other. Either way, Raikou's definitely better now, so its ranking should show that. It could rise to B+ or A-, either's good, though I'm more inclined to B+.
I may add more to this post later, I dunno.
It's got a few flaws, namely its 5 weaknesses, average Speed for a DDer and facing some slight opportunity cost for a Mega, but for what this thing does, namely shit all over Stall teams with Sub, Taunt or both, beat almost all of the new Megas thanks to its STABs and brutal power and doing all of this with such great ease, I can honestly see the only Gen I Dark-type rising up. Mega Gyarados for S.
Why am I more inclined to say B+ over A-? This might just be me, but Raikou is an extremely item-reliant Pokémon when running AV or Specs. With Knock Off still being a common move, Raikou is highly vulnerable to losing the item it needs. Calm Mind versions suffer less from this, but the other two sets (especially AV) definitely do. Additionally, it has no Fire-type coverage, unlike Mega Manectric, which means Pokémon like Ferrothorn still badly wall it. Mega Scizor is a 50/50 case, though.
I'd like to bring up once more that Raikou and Mega Manectric have their own roles and each check different Pokémon. Use each to their own strengths, don't play one like the other. Either way, Raikou's definitely better now, so its ranking should show that. It could rise to B+ or A-, either's good, though I'm more inclined to B+.
I may add more to this post later, I dunno.
Yeah I faced it a lot and it never gave me troubles either... no matter what I ran, offense, birdspam, TR, bulky offense, stall... Idk if it should move down though, as I don't have enough experience using it. Same with Mega Gardy.
Agree with Mega Gyara rising to S.
Agree with Raikou rising.
Zard Y is 4x weak to SR and is certainly worse than in XY given that Mega Metagross and Lopunny can rain (lol) on its day.
Personal experience is definitly not an argument in a theorymon debate, but I was giving my opinion lol, and an opinion from real battles is certainly more relevant than imagining wonderful scenarios which will never happen. I play a lot and with some different team, kinda like DoABarrelRoll, unlike you apparently. Lopunny will necessary give you troubles if you play offense, or even balanced if your defensive core is weakened. It's definitly a threat.
Though Altaria is really meh. Even without thinking at it in the teambuilding, you often have an answer to it. Go ahead make some battles and you'll see bruh, I can't explain more or at least I don't want to. But in my opinion this thing should move down to A.
Though Altaria is really meh. Even without thinking at it in the teambuilding, you often have an answer to it. Go ahead make some battles and you'll see bruh, I can't explain more or at least I don't want to. But in my opinion this thing should move down to A.
You're talking on a thread that involves many of the top players discussing their opinions on how effective Pokémon have been when used by and against them. Where replays of high level matches are constantly used as evidence to support notions.
I mean, fuck, you're saying all of this but it would probably help your case if you showed us your replays and experience. Right now you're just as much theorymonning as the people you're accusing :U
I’m just quickly shifting back to Gyara since we're discussing it for S-Rank.
Definition of S-Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Gyarados is an interesting case because it can theoretically Stallbreak, Sweep and Clean all on the same set and clearly it does it well or it wouldn’t be A+. But the bit that gets me in this definition is the “low risk involved and high reward exerted”. Mega Gyarados isn’t what I would call “low risk”. You can’t just send it out at whatever point in the battle you want because it’s too slow to revenge kill or instantly sweep, vulnerable to all forms of status and very easily worn down, unlike Sableye(who I know isn’t a revenge killer, but it can happily switch about a lot) and perhaps Lando. In comparison to Metagross and Lopunny, it needs slightly more team support to really be effective – crucially, it demands very specific teammates like Talonflame which nobody else in S-Rank does in order to best do it’s job(s). If you don’t use Gyara effectively, or if you misplay, then it’s not going to be reaching it’s full potential.
However, what Gyarados has in it’s favour is that it can tear through most of the tier when it does get to that +2, and perhaps even before. It can do that “extremely well”. It’s also really bulky. Like, really bulky. Being able to Tank a SE Thunderbolt hit from Mega Man is nothing short of impressive. Obviously, if you do get it right, then yeah, high reward will definitely be exerted.
Some calcs I think are significant when deciding how effective Gyara is (list not exhaustive, may add more later):
Offensive:
Defensive:
Right now, I’m leaning towards keeping Gyarados in A+.It’s a close call imo, so I am open to being persuaded otherwise.
And if anyone can tell me how to do a show/hide tag so I can make this post artificially smaller, I'd really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else will too.
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Gyarados is an interesting case because it can theoretically Stallbreak, Sweep and Clean all on the same set and clearly it does it well or it wouldn’t be A+. But the bit that gets me in this definition is the “low risk involved and high reward exerted”. Mega Gyarados isn’t what I would call “low risk”. You can’t just send it out at whatever point in the battle you want because it’s too slow to revenge kill or instantly sweep, vulnerable to all forms of status and very easily worn down, unlike Sableye(who I know isn’t a revenge killer, but it can happily switch about a lot) and perhaps Lando. In comparison to Metagross and Lopunny, it needs slightly more team support to really be effective – crucially, it demands very specific teammates like Talonflame which nobody else in S-Rank does in order to best do it’s job(s). If you don’t use Gyara effectively, or if you misplay, then it’s not going to be reaching it’s full potential.
However, what Gyarados has in it’s favour is that it can tear through most of the tier when it does get to that +2, and perhaps even before. It can do that “extremely well”. It’s also really bulky. Like, really bulky. Being able to Tank a SE Thunderbolt hit from Mega Man is nothing short of impressive. Obviously, if you do get it right, then yeah, high reward will definitely be exerted.
Some calcs I think are significant when deciding how effective Gyara is (list not exhaustive, may add more later):
Offensive:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 392-464 (129.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 168-200 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 378-446 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 297-351 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-121 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- 43% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 258-304 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 343-405 (126.5 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 392-464 (129.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 168-200 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 378-446 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 297-351 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-121 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- 43% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 258-304 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 343-405 (126.5 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive:
Take boosted calcs with a pinch of salt; Gyarados usually runs Taunt. Also assumes Gyara’s already MEvolved and Intimidate hasn’t happened.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 98-116 (29.6 - 35%) -- 14.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 130-154 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 352-415 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 158-188 (47.7 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 408-480 (123.2 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 98-116 (29.6 - 35%) -- 14.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 130-154 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 352-415 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 158-188 (47.7 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 408-480 (123.2 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Right now, I’m leaning towards keeping Gyarados in A+.It’s a close call imo, so I am open to being persuaded otherwise.
And if anyone can tell me how to do a show/hide tag so I can make this post artificially smaller, I'd really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else will too.
Last edited:
I don't think Mega Gyarados is S rank material to be honest. It's for sure a solid mon, but I guess you guys are bit overstimating it. Firstly, while Dark + Water typing is very a cool one offensively, it isn't very good defensively, opening Mega Gyarados to important weaknesses to Fight-type, Grass-type and Fairy-type. If you just give a look on the mons that actually sit on S and A+ rank, you will see that Gyarados has many problems to setup on the most part of them, and for a setup sweeper that isn't cool of course. Just to make some examples, Lopunny beats it with HJK, Keldeo with Secret Sword, Thundurus with Thunderbolt (and can stop an eventually sweep with Thunder Wave too), Azumarill with Play Rough etc. With this I mean that Gyarados actually has some problem to find time to setup, and its Stealth Rock weakness before it mega evolves doesn't help either naturally.
Another thing that I don't like about Gyarados is that, since it has quite weak STABs, it has to rely on Waterfall flinches to actually sweep a team. I guess that a situation where you had a Keldeo / Altaria / Unaware Clefable as your Gyarados answer and you got flinch'd and lost happened to everyone. 20% chances to flinch is of course something to not understimate, but I think that Gyarados relies too much on them.
tl;dr I think that while Gyarados is a good pokèmon, it has too many problems to setup in the current metagame because of its bad weaknesses to common types and because of its weakness to Stealth Rock before mega evolving. In addition, even if now it can use Crunch, it still relies too much on Waterfall's flinches to actually sweep a team because of it's quite weak STABs attack. A+ imo is already a good rank for it.
Another thing that I don't like about Gyarados is that, since it has quite weak STABs, it has to rely on Waterfall flinches to actually sweep a team. I guess that a situation where you had a Keldeo / Altaria / Unaware Clefable as your Gyarados answer and you got flinch'd and lost happened to everyone. 20% chances to flinch is of course something to not understimate, but I think that Gyarados relies too much on them.
tl;dr I think that while Gyarados is a good pokèmon, it has too many problems to setup in the current metagame because of its bad weaknesses to common types and because of its weakness to Stealth Rock before mega evolving. In addition, even if now it can use Crunch, it still relies too much on Waterfall's flinches to actually sweep a team because of it's quite weak STABs attack. A+ imo is already a good rank for it.
FFS, when will people realize that "I never had issues with it, therefore it's bad/ not as good as people say", if you run five greninja checks on your teams, obviously you are not gonna have issues with greninja, therefore you need a bigger prospective on stuff like that. People running full stall prolly didnt have huge issues with greninja thaks to being able to easily run chansey, but they still voted for it to be banned, because they were able to see how restricting it was to other playstyles, like balance and offense.
As for altaria, you might not struggle with it, but denying it's great qualities is really hard. It's defensive DD set has an easy time setting up, while providing great support in being an offensive heal bell user, a claim very few pokemon can say they can. It also has plenty of diffrent sets, which can easily screw you over if you mispredict and switch your skarm into a fire blast from the special set, when you were expecting the mono-attacking set.
So yeah, Keep Birdo at A+, maybe raise to S, since it kinda rocks.
"If "top players" who used and faced Mega Altaria think it should be A+ or S, not sure they are top players. "
That's just kinda arrogant, so I wont bother with it....
Hate to be a bitch here but I'm gonna rant and if you don't want to read it don't read it
I was the one who first suggested M-Altaria to S. Are you saying I'm not a good player? I understand what I'm doing in almost every single post I've made and every single battle I've done. I may not win everything, but I sure as hell know what I'm doing. I'm going to defend my case on Altaria until TRC says otherwise.
With the quality of the posts you have been making, it's obvious that, unless the player isn't very good, that Altaria will be doing some serious damage. Altaria is a very versatile Pokémon. There's no telling what set it's going to have when you enter the battle. The mixed set is brutal. It's arguably better than Gardevour since it has Fire Blast, Earthquake, a better typing and better bulk. I honestly can't believe that you're attempting to deny that.
tl;dr: Altaria has so much versatility in battle and you clearly don't know what you're saying
Changing a bit of the topic here, I really do support M-Gyarados going to S. I've been meaning to talk about this for a long time, I guess Altaria just took a bit of priority. Everything that needs to be said about Gyarados has already been said. Gyarados is an absolute monster, having both Mold Breaker and Taunt, being able to ignore Unaware users and everything, it really deserves S. Not gonna say anymore on this since it's already been said.
Last edited:
My one problem with Clefable, Alt and Gyara going to S-rank is that even if we drop Lopunny (rip qq), the rank will be a little... inflated. I mean they're all good Pokémon and I can definitely see if not agree with the reasoning for wanting them to go to S, but we've gotta consider just how many 'mon can be considered the best in the game. Hell, five of those seven (clef, lando, lop, sable, meta, gyara, alt) are Megas.
Personally I think S rank is what it should be right now. If anything I think Clefable might deserve it more than M-Gyara or M-Altaria since you can slap it on almost any team to fulfill one of a few roles, kinda like Landorus-T.
Gyarados and Altaria are definitely extremely frightening, but usually require setting up to sweep (Mixed Altaria is more of a wallbreaker I think than a sweeper though). Lopunny and Metagross sweep naturally and Sableye is also a setup sweeper but it counters a large majority of the metagame because of its typing and ability, plus he doubles as a utility mon.
Not saying they won't ever be S rank but A+ is where they belong at the moment I think.
If Altaria does rise it'll be because of the Mixed set I think since it can take on some of its usual checks that it doesn't always run coverage for like Mega Scizor and Heatran
Gyarados and Altaria are definitely extremely frightening, but usually require setting up to sweep (Mixed Altaria is more of a wallbreaker I think than a sweeper though). Lopunny and Metagross sweep naturally and Sableye is also a setup sweeper but it counters a large majority of the metagame because of its typing and ability, plus he doubles as a utility mon.
Not saying they won't ever be S rank but A+ is where they belong at the moment I think.
If Altaria does rise it'll be because of the Mixed set I think since it can take on some of its usual checks that it doesn't always run coverage for like Mega Scizor and Heatran
I don't see the reasons why we would drop Lopunny to make Gyarados S rank as Lopunny is WAY better than it, as it's faster, has unresisted STABs, the possibility to break Stall teams if it wants to (PuP) and some cool other options as Healing Wish, Encore and Baton Pass to some exend.
I also support Clefable in S rank as it's a really good mon, being able to fit in balanced, stall and even HO teams as an offensive SR setter. Of course Steel-type mons exsist, but every mon needs some support and that's not like Clefable can't cripple Steel-type mons by itself, as Fire Blast beats Scizor and does a ton on Metagross and Bisharp and Thunder Wave lets it to beat Heatran and annoy the mons I mentioned before as well.
I think that Clefable really rappresents balanced and bulky offense team (as the user above said, you can slap it in almost every team of that kind and it will work), and since these 2 playstyles are actually the most consistent and reliable, I guess that Clefable may deserve the S rank.
I also support Clefable in S rank as it's a really good mon, being able to fit in balanced, stall and even HO teams as an offensive SR setter. Of course Steel-type mons exsist, but every mon needs some support and that's not like Clefable can't cripple Steel-type mons by itself, as Fire Blast beats Scizor and does a ton on Metagross and Bisharp and Thunder Wave lets it to beat Heatran and annoy the mons I mentioned before as well.
I think that Clefable really rappresents balanced and bulky offense team (as the user above said, you can slap it in almost every team of that kind and it will work), and since these 2 playstyles are actually the most consistent and reliable, I guess that Clefable may deserve the S rank.
I don't think the S rank being inflated is that much of a problem but it is a problem when the difference between S and A+ becomes barely noticeable and I do think the S rank has lowered it's standards somewhat. I don't think Mega Alt and Mega Gyara can be justified to be S because they have more flaws and/or don't have as strong qualities. Still awesome pokemons and well deserve their A+ ranking but I am not convinced they are S rank worthy for reasons that have been stated before.
If it's not too late, I'd like to touch on Mega Altaria. I think some people are underestimating it's staying power and the ability it has to break through it's checks. One example is Heatran. The monoattacking set can easily break through Tran due to the fact that most Heatrans don't carry roar or flash cannon. Even a defensive monster like Mega Slowbro is eventually broken if it lacks ice beam. The only mons on stall that trouble it are Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and the Steel/Psychic types Bronzong and Jirachi. This not even touching on it's versatility which others have already touched on. If only it learned defog...
If we arent gonna put Clef in S rank, then dont put MGyara in there either. In fact, just dont put MGyara in there otherwise.
MGyara really does have problems with setting up, and his defensive typing really cripples him. He also needs to eliminate all of his checks/counters (Azu, Keldeo which are common) and then he can sweep. Although, i feel like he is one of the only setup sweepers that can legit sweep a whole team with a Sub up. This thing is an absolute monster, but with its checks/counters (theres more than keld and azu but thats all i can think of lol) and its not so good defensive typing (gives it the inability to stay on most HO teams) we should keep it in A+. This thing just requires too much support (SR if non mega, something to take out both Keld and Azu and Ferro and MVenu, and it needs a giant ass core that takes up half of your team) and honestly sometimes i dont even think it deserves A+...
Also, I feel like if a mon cant take out atleast half of the S rank mons but can take on a plethora of A ranks, i think it should still be in S. Non Ice Punch doesnt take on Lando that well. Should we demote it? Imo we shouldnt.
EDIT: Agreeing with AM (and no me agreeing with anyone isnt bad lol) on the fact that DD isnt easy to pull off and Altaria has too many commonplace checks to go to S, with most of them checking all of its sets.
MGyara really does have problems with setting up, and his defensive typing really cripples him. He also needs to eliminate all of his checks/counters (Azu, Keldeo which are common) and then he can sweep. Although, i feel like he is one of the only setup sweepers that can legit sweep a whole team with a Sub up. This thing is an absolute monster, but with its checks/counters (theres more than keld and azu but thats all i can think of lol) and its not so good defensive typing (gives it the inability to stay on most HO teams) we should keep it in A+. This thing just requires too much support (SR if non mega, something to take out both Keld and Azu and Ferro and MVenu, and it needs a giant ass core that takes up half of your team) and honestly sometimes i dont even think it deserves A+...
Also, I feel like if a mon cant take out atleast half of the S rank mons but can take on a plethora of A ranks, i think it should still be in S. Non Ice Punch doesnt take on Lando that well. Should we demote it? Imo we shouldnt.
EDIT: Agreeing with AM (and no me agreeing with anyone isnt bad lol) on the fact that DD isnt easy to pull off and Altaria has too many commonplace checks to go to S, with most of them checking all of its sets.
Last edited:
Gonna elaborate my thoughts on the current discussion on a general scale. This might be long.
I don't think M-Altaria or M-Gyarados are S rank material, and I'm saying this on the notion that they're not even close in comparison to some former topics and to a degree what I feel has potential to be S rank. I believe Clefable and Keldeo are more S rank material than M-Gyarados and M-Altaria and if you haven't noticed already I have explained my stance on why I can't see Clefable in S rank. M-Gyarados and M-Altaria is a high exaggeration for S rank under the premise that they have no opportunity cost associated with them. I'll explain each one to the best of my abilities.
M-Altaria has several things going for it. Typing, versatility, above average stats across the spectrum. Unfortunately this versatility will come back to bite M-Altaria in the ass sometimes because it needs enough support from its teammates to successfully do its job on a consistent enough level for each of its sets. You have universal checks to it in the form of Talonflame, M-Venusaur, Scizor, Heatran, M-Metagross, Ferrothorn, Skarmory just to name a few. You could say, "Well AM, some of these are beat with coverage moves", and my rebuttal would be sure but now what is the tradeoff that is being used to check these mons because you're gonna be missing something that emphasizes on M-Altaria's self sufficiency. Defensive Dragon Dance is a set that takes so much support in practice to even accomplish that there is 0 way that you can tell me that this would be the set that pushes it to S rank. DDD is one of those sets that people praise on paper and when it comes down to practice you finally see the very noticeable flaw that it represents. When I use this set I feel as if I'm playing a 5-6 match because the moment a steel type or poison type is on the team, which the former is on most teams, I have to take that out of the picture for M-Altaria to even come close to sweeping. Dragon Dance sets that have 2 attacks and Roost / Dragon Dance are usually a bit more efficient due to added coverage but still comes to the fact that most of these are specific in hitting certain targets while still losing to whatever coverage it is missing at the time, so once again it comes back to universal checks still hitting M-Altaria. On the topic of checks the biggest check in its thorn is Talonflame, which is seen on a ridiculous amount of teams and has to rely on Dragon STAB of all things to even have a chance against it. Then you have M-Venusaur who has found itself on more Balanced and Stall builds to counteract with the meta because it's such a good glue that handles a bunch of dangerous threats in one package, with M-Altaria being something that it easily handles. Before someone tells me that M-Sableye is the face of stall and that M-Venusaur isn't found on stall I'm talking about builds that have been seen in SPL that are more stall oriented but rely more on its consistency in balance as opposed to heavy stall that M-Sableye usually occupies and is somewhat match-up reliant. Then you have other M-Altaria sets such as Mixed attacker / Roost, Special Attacker, and Support sets. So more or less each set requires enough amount of support that in reality you can't slap on a team and call it a day.
M-Gyarados is a very effective mega but clicking Sub then Dragon Dance is not winning you games and is not as consistent as you guys are making it out to be if we're considering that you call its practical abilities to be S rank material. More and more Ferrothorns are running Power Whip to beat not only this but its regular form as well along with having a better match-up against Keldeo and your general targets of this move such as M-Diancie and bulky water types like Slowbro. Chesnaught has seen a rise in usage on more defensive oriented builds and pretty much cock blocks M-Gyarados any given day of the week. Scarf Lando-T is eeeeverywhere and it takes one Superpower or Explosion to put a dent in M-Gyarados in the first place. Then you have Keldeo who is becoming more dominating in the meta every time I see a match and as such M-Gyarados has to either rely on Earthquake to hit it or in most scenarios because it usually doesn't want to run EQ all the time, needs another team-mate to handle a threat that already bullshits its way through Scald burns in the first place, Keldeo. If we're addressing its common set of Waterfall, Crunch, Sub, DDance then let's also consider the fact that it's now forced to have a trade off for power towards speed in order to compensate its match-up against the likes of M-Lopunny, M-Alakazam, M-Manectric, most of your faster threats typically found on offensive builds. This trade-off for power makes M-Gyarados much easier to handle for defensive builds that incorporate some of these checks and counters mentioned above, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that Ferrothorn is pretty out there in the first place. The necessity to have a Substitute up to function effectively is not one you would expect from an S rank threat in my eyes. Everyone knows that if the checks and counters are out of the picture the Pokemon we're discussing has the potential to sweep. This is no different than M-Gallade, no different than Talonflame, no different than M-Slowbro, and so forth.
This sort of brings me to my last point that I discussed with some outside of here that I'll relay on this comment. S rank to me is what defines the meta. This point seems obvious with you probably scratching your heads right now with me stating the obvious but it's apparent to myself as subjective as it sounds that it isn't something that is being comprehended by everybody. This has nothing to do with your skill level so let's avoid the chuckle worthy arguments that skill equates to knowledge and understanding of the meta when I can consider myself extremely mediocre to a lot of players but at least put in effort to establish some points that I feel strongly about. Anyways, what I mean by defining the meta is that these are gods in their respective tiers either through centralization, practical abilities, or both. You look at Lando-T which has such a high usage that we realistically have to take into account this factor in regards to viability to get the point across that this is enough of a dominant force in the meta that would necessitate its current rank of S, along with all the utility and traits that it provides. M-Metagross has established itself as one of the most dominant megas on both offensive and balanced builds and is not only self sufficient but the moment it comes in from a lot of games I've played and seen, it simply grabs momentum the moment it sets foot in the battle, can be a pain in the ass to take down, and gets past a lot of threats in the tier just by coverage, utility, and power alone. M-Sableye marks the point of centralization with an underlying tone of effectiveness because you need a concrete answer to it and would be checks to its CM set such as Talonflame for example, have the ability to lose to its utility set with Foul Play and Knock Off. This is all coupled into the fact that it has made a plethora of support mons have to either adapt or become obsolete and as such comes back to defining the meta on a grander scale in regards to your average defensive threats. A+ to me is mons that are really good in the tier but don't necessarily define the meta, such as M-Gyarados and M-Altaria. They are not as dominant in the metagame and as such you don't need to prepare for them on the level of M-Metagross for example. People need to understand that A+ and S rank are on any given day very similar in ranks however what pushes something to S rank to me is how much of its presence is seen and felt through the metagame. M-Gyarados and M-Altaria don't fit this criteria to me as such they're A+ ranked threats to me. I didn't speak on M-Lopunny because myself and others have been keeping a close eye on SPL games for a lot of our ideas of ranking and right now M-Lopunny is debatable in its current position based off of its practicality in SPL alone however I know we'll be discussing it soon enough so some things as usual will be worked around.
I don't think M-Altaria or M-Gyarados are S rank material, and I'm saying this on the notion that they're not even close in comparison to some former topics and to a degree what I feel has potential to be S rank. I believe Clefable and Keldeo are more S rank material than M-Gyarados and M-Altaria and if you haven't noticed already I have explained my stance on why I can't see Clefable in S rank. M-Gyarados and M-Altaria is a high exaggeration for S rank under the premise that they have no opportunity cost associated with them. I'll explain each one to the best of my abilities.
M-Altaria has several things going for it. Typing, versatility, above average stats across the spectrum. Unfortunately this versatility will come back to bite M-Altaria in the ass sometimes because it needs enough support from its teammates to successfully do its job on a consistent enough level for each of its sets. You have universal checks to it in the form of Talonflame, M-Venusaur, Scizor, Heatran, M-Metagross, Ferrothorn, Skarmory just to name a few. You could say, "Well AM, some of these are beat with coverage moves", and my rebuttal would be sure but now what is the tradeoff that is being used to check these mons because you're gonna be missing something that emphasizes on M-Altaria's self sufficiency. Defensive Dragon Dance is a set that takes so much support in practice to even accomplish that there is 0 way that you can tell me that this would be the set that pushes it to S rank. DDD is one of those sets that people praise on paper and when it comes down to practice you finally see the very noticeable flaw that it represents. When I use this set I feel as if I'm playing a 5-6 match because the moment a steel type or poison type is on the team, which the former is on most teams, I have to take that out of the picture for M-Altaria to even come close to sweeping. Dragon Dance sets that have 2 attacks and Roost / Dragon Dance are usually a bit more efficient due to added coverage but still comes to the fact that most of these are specific in hitting certain targets while still losing to whatever coverage it is missing at the time, so once again it comes back to universal checks still hitting M-Altaria. On the topic of checks the biggest check in its thorn is Talonflame, which is seen on a ridiculous amount of teams and has to rely on Dragon STAB of all things to even have a chance against it. Then you have M-Venusaur who has found itself on more Balanced and Stall builds to counteract with the meta because it's such a good glue that handles a bunch of dangerous threats in one package, with M-Altaria being something that it easily handles. Before someone tells me that M-Sableye is the face of stall and that M-Venusaur isn't found on stall I'm talking about builds that have been seen in SPL that are more stall oriented but rely more on its consistency in balance as opposed to heavy stall that M-Sableye usually occupies and is somewhat match-up reliant. Then you have other M-Altaria sets such as Mixed attacker / Roost, Special Attacker, and Support sets. So more or less each set requires enough amount of support that in reality you can't slap on a team and call it a day.
M-Gyarados is a very effective mega but clicking Sub then Dragon Dance is not winning you games and is not as consistent as you guys are making it out to be if we're considering that you call its practical abilities to be S rank material. More and more Ferrothorns are running Power Whip to beat not only this but its regular form as well along with having a better match-up against Keldeo and your general targets of this move such as M-Diancie and bulky water types like Slowbro. Chesnaught has seen a rise in usage on more defensive oriented builds and pretty much cock blocks M-Gyarados any given day of the week. Scarf Lando-T is eeeeverywhere and it takes one Superpower or Explosion to put a dent in M-Gyarados in the first place. Then you have Keldeo who is becoming more dominating in the meta every time I see a match and as such M-Gyarados has to either rely on Earthquake to hit it or in most scenarios because it usually doesn't want to run EQ all the time, needs another team-mate to handle a threat that already bullshits its way through Scald burns in the first place, Keldeo. If we're addressing its common set of Waterfall, Crunch, Sub, DDance then let's also consider the fact that it's now forced to have a trade off for power towards speed in order to compensate its match-up against the likes of M-Lopunny, M-Alakazam, M-Manectric, most of your faster threats typically found on offensive builds. This trade-off for power makes M-Gyarados much easier to handle for defensive builds that incorporate some of these checks and counters mentioned above, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that Ferrothorn is pretty out there in the first place. The necessity to have a Substitute up to function effectively is not one you would expect from an S rank threat in my eyes. Everyone knows that if the checks and counters are out of the picture the Pokemon we're discussing has the potential to sweep. This is no different than M-Gallade, no different than Talonflame, no different than M-Slowbro, and so forth.
This sort of brings me to my last point that I discussed with some outside of here that I'll relay on this comment. S rank to me is what defines the meta. This point seems obvious with you probably scratching your heads right now with me stating the obvious but it's apparent to myself as subjective as it sounds that it isn't something that is being comprehended by everybody. This has nothing to do with your skill level so let's avoid the chuckle worthy arguments that skill equates to knowledge and understanding of the meta when I can consider myself extremely mediocre to a lot of players but at least put in effort to establish some points that I feel strongly about. Anyways, what I mean by defining the meta is that these are gods in their respective tiers either through centralization, practical abilities, or both. You look at Lando-T which has such a high usage that we realistically have to take into account this factor in regards to viability to get the point across that this is enough of a dominant force in the meta that would necessitate its current rank of S, along with all the utility and traits that it provides. M-Metagross has established itself as one of the most dominant megas on both offensive and balanced builds and is not only self sufficient but the moment it comes in from a lot of games I've played and seen, it simply grabs momentum the moment it sets foot in the battle, can be a pain in the ass to take down, and gets past a lot of threats in the tier just by coverage, utility, and power alone. M-Sableye marks the point of centralization with an underlying tone of effectiveness because you need a concrete answer to it and would be checks to its CM set such as Talonflame for example, have the ability to lose to its utility set with Foul Play and Knock Off. This is all coupled into the fact that it has made a plethora of support mons have to either adapt or become obsolete and as such comes back to defining the meta on a grander scale in regards to your average defensive threats. A+ to me is mons that are really good in the tier but don't necessarily define the meta, such as M-Gyarados and M-Altaria. They are not as dominant in the metagame and as such you don't need to prepare for them on the level of M-Metagross for example. People need to understand that A+ and S rank are on any given day very similar in ranks however what pushes something to S rank to me is how much of its presence is seen and felt through the metagame. M-Gyarados and M-Altaria don't fit this criteria to me as such they're A+ ranked threats to me. I didn't speak on M-Lopunny because myself and others have been keeping a close eye on SPL games for a lot of our ideas of ranking and right now M-Lopunny is debatable in its current position based off of its practicality in SPL alone however I know we'll be discussing it soon enough so some things as usual will be worked around.
Last edited:
Is getting 15% prior damage on a Pokemon really that difficult? Mega Gyarados is not meant to sweep opposing teams while everything is still relatively healthy. The same applies to Zard X, Mega Altaria, Talonflame, etc. I really do not see your argument here.
I'm not sure that you can compare mega Sceptile and scarf lando because sceptile is an efficient late game cleaner and requires much less prediction than Lando T. Scarf Lando is amazing but can be very reliant on prediction to do well. Also, their coverage is very different and you can use scarf Lando on the same team as mega sceptile to check threats like talonflame. Also, you are forgetting scarfers like the ubiquitous scarf tar and even magnezone and excadrill. All of which sceptile outspeeds and ohkos. Also another major threat like mega gyarados is out sped and ohkoed by mega sceptile at +1! I just think that mega Sceptile is the archetypeal mega for hazard stacking teams.
- Status